Is A 2 Hour Game Worth $18?

Mut1ny said:
Not an accurate analogy. Two totally different things. How much is a car vs. a house? How much is a game vs. a music album? How much is food vs. drugs?
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Food costs about $50 a person for a weeks worth of nourishment. Spend more if you want more quality.

"Drugs" can mean anything, from cheap beer to top-dollar cocaine. Lets assume you mean "Weed".

I just realised I have no damn idea what weed costs, godamn, I'm a loser. I can't really critique the comparison..

A car usually lasts 10 years, costs five-to-six figures. House usually lasts ~70-100 years costs six-to-seven figures.

Its actually quite an apt comparison...
 
Oh just so everyone knows...the developers thanked Anita Sarkeesian in the "Special Thanks" section of the end credits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuXPbRDrzqE (around 2:12)

When asked why on the Steam forums just now a developer replied with:

She's in the special thanks along with a bunch of other friends and family members. Her involvement in the game is simply that several of us know her and are friends and probably had some conversations about the game at some point in development that someone on the team found helpful and decided to express appreciation for.

I don't really see what difference it should make to anyone, but I'm aware that some people have extremely strong feelings about this for whatever reason. For the record I don't really care to have an argument about it, I just wanted to clarify what a special thanks section is for, at least in our case.
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So yeah, take that for what you will, but considering these people are part of the gaming community and are friends with someone that seems to only want to destroy it...well...I'm even more glad I refunded. Maybe it's just me but being friends with someone like her when you make games seems so...hypocritical? I certainly know I wouldn't want to be friends with that lying manipulative agenda shoving has been.
 
KazeoHin said:
Its actually quite an apt comparison...
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Sure it is, when you have to justify your own opinion. But in all actually it isn't for the reasons I stated (different mediums, knowing the conditions of what you're paying for, etc).
 
Mut1ny said:
Oh just so everyone knows...the developers thanked Anita Sarkeesian in the "Special Thanks" section of the end credits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuXPbRDrzqE (around 2:12)

When asked why on the Steam forums just now a developer replied with:



So yeah, take that for what you will, but considering these people are part of the gaming community and are friends with someone that seems to only want to destroy it...well...I'm even more glad I refunded. Maybe it's just me but being friends with someone like her when you make games seems so...hypocritical? I certainly know I wouldn't want to be friends with that lying manipulative agenda shoving has been.
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I don't really agree with Anita Sarkeesian, but the huge amount of butthurt neckbeards who suddenly become vocal 'men's rights' activists at the mere mention of her name actually makes me REALLY want to see her in this industry more. I'm pretty sure people have more sympathy for a child rapist, or even Adolph Hitler than gamers have sympathy for Anita Sarkeesian.

After all, because she doesn't like the portrayal of women in mainstream games industry, that means she WANTS TO DESTROY THE GAMES INDUSTRY AND HATES MEN AND WANTS TO SEE THE WORLD BURN.

It only makes sense.
 
Mut1ny said:
Sure it is, when you have to justify your own opinion. But in all actually it isn't for the reasons I stated (different mediums, knowing the conditions of what you're paying for, etc).
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KazeoHin said:
I don't really agree with Anita Sarkeesian, but the huge amount of butthurt neckbeards who suddenly become vocal 'men's rights' activists at the mere mention of her name actually makes me REALLY want to see her in this industry more. I'm pretty sure people have more sympathy for a child rapist, or even Adolph Hitler than gamers have sympathy for Anita Sarkeesian.

After all, because she doesn't like the portrayal of women in mainstream games industry, that means she WANTS TO DESTROY THE GAMES INDUSTRY AND HATES MEN AND WANTS TO SEE THE WORLD BURN.

It only makes sense.
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I have to agree. I'm tired of people arguing over her. I can still buy games with well clothed women, damn near nude women, save the women that were kidnapped, dumb blondes, etc. I do notice that a few of the games that have strong female leads see the front page of Steam a little more during a Steam sale. I can't see how that's a bad thing as all of them were good games and would have deserved to be there from the beginning.

Bringing her name up and writing something nasty just perpetuates the topic back to the forefront. Honestly I thought it was a dead horse topic. ;) Let's let it die.
 
Steve said:
What happens when, as an indy developer, you are asked for a refund because your game is too short? I think this response was pretty classy:

So yes, I am sad when people think this game is not worth the money we asked for (which we thought was a fair ask). It makes me feel like I failed them. It is ok if people don't like the game, but it affects me personally a lot, when people feel like it was not -worth- the time they engaged with it. But do I blame you for wanting to get the most out of your $18? No.
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i got 100 hours out of Gauntlet and I paid $5 for it.
I got 300 hours of L4D2 & paid $5 for it.
for $18 I better get 1000 hours out of it...
 
lostinseganet said:
That two hours better be straight to the awesome...
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From what I understand, the game is an emotional waltz, a stroll where you take in the sights, reflect on the world and stew in the back story and the characters' interactions.

It definitely NOT for the 'well what can it do for ME' crowd.
 
KazeoHin said:
Ha, actually I'm trying to understand what you meant with your reply. because it read like:
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Mut1ny said:
Sure it is, when you have to justify your own opinion.
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Of course your opinion is correct when it's your own. If you didn't agree with your own opinion then you wouldn't hold to it.

Mut1ny said:
But in all actually it isn't for the reasons I stated (different mediums, knowing the conditions of what you're paying for, etc).
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Why your opinion isn't actually accurate. Apples and oranges.

Better or does it need to be more simple?
 
To me it just sounds like the Developer had a higher opinion of his work that what the market seems to value it at.

They really thought the game they made was worth the asking price, and some gamers seem to think it wasn't even work anything and felt entitled to a refund.

That is the reality of selling it on Steam. Any criticism of the length of the game is valid as is criticism of the price.

The job of the developer isn't to try and defend their ideas about the product after it is released. It has to stand on it's own merits.

I understand that gamers taking advantage of Steams return policy are placing the developer in a uncomfortable position where the customer played the game or finished it but are getting their money back it isn't the customers job to worry about that.

Next time don't use Steam or make longer games or both. No one likes criticism of their work but a professional can chose to use them to make better products or adjust their expectations or even decide to stand their ground and not compromise their creative intent or not adjust their ideas about how much money the feel their efforts are worth.

The thing is that at the end of the day the developer can control the outcomes and complaining about the customer isn't normally a good way to establish yourself.
 
Mut1ny said:
Of course your opinion is correct when it's your own. If you didn't agree with your own opinion then you wouldn't hold to it.

Why your opinion isn't actually accurate. Apples and oranges.

Better or does it need to be more simple?
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Wat-3d-Gif-12.png



So let me get this straight.


"Your argument is wrong, why? Because it only seems right because it is you opinion"

That literally, figuratively, practically, satirically, comedically, non-representationally and experimentally makes exactly zero sense.
 
cageymaru said:
I have to agree. I'm tired of people arguing over her. I can still buy games with well clothed women, damn near nude women, save the women that were kidnapped, dumb blondes, etc. I do notice that a few of the games that have strong female leads see the front page of Steam a little more during a Steam sale. I can't see how that's a bad thing as all of them were good games and would have deserved to be there from the beginning.

Bringing her name up and writing something nasty just perpetuates the topic back to the forefront. Honestly I thought it was a dead horse topic. ;) Let's let it die.
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Because women are a threat to men if we let them put on their shoes and leave the kitchen, they might apply for work and take our jobs, even though they're not qualified (they're women, after all) <sarcasm\>
 
What I am getting here is that some believe it is ok to return a working product. I am not a big fan of this notion. You choose to purchase. You play the game thru to the end. But you require a refund because you didn't like it. Do you do this at movie theaters? I get it if it doesn't work or has technical difficulties that make the event undesirable. But just because your satisfaction level wasn't met? That would be a terrible world to live in.
 
nilepez said:
Because women are a threat to men if we let them put on their shoes and leave the kitchen, they might apply for work and take our jobs, even though they're not qualified (they're women, after all) <sarcasm\>
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I think his point is that talking about her or any negative topic person, be their fight legitimate or not, only leads to negativity and not productive to a rational discussion. In this case, in this thread, it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
 
JustReason said:
What I am getting here is that some believe it is ok to return a working product. I am not a big fan of this notion. You choose to purchase. You play the game thru to the end. But you require a refund because you didn't like it. Do you do this at movie theaters? I get it if it doesn't work or has technical difficulties that make the event undesirable. But just because your satisfaction level wasn't met? That would be a terrible world to live in.
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While I agree with you, Steam policy allows for a return within two hours. If you finish the game in two hours and aren't happy that you just spent $18 on it due to length and zero replay value, certainly meets the criteria for a return.
 
JustReason said:
What I am getting here is that some believe it is ok to return a working product. I am not a big fan of this notion. You choose to purchase. You play the game thru to the end. But you require a refund because you didn't like it. Do you do this at movie theaters? I get it if it doesn't work or has technical difficulties that make the event undesirable. But just because your satisfaction level wasn't met? That would be a terrible world to live in.
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What's even more douche-y is the fact that the person was essentially saying (if you read the original post) "I really enjoyed this game, and it was really well designed...... but it was 2 hours so refund lol"

which makes me wonder what does he mean by '2 hours?' from the 'lets play's I've seen of this game, its story is HIGHLY branched, and different people will encounter different content, and a single person can make different choices in each play-through and see a different story... so the idea that someone buys a game just to play it from 'start' to 'credits' once, and then judges the value based on the amount of time they were engaged.

Do I think this game is worth $20 USD (would be around $35 AUD)? no, not really, but then again... that's why I have not bought it. If you pay for something, and it does what it said it will do when you agreed to purchase it, then it was worth what you paid.

There are $2000 "I'm rich" applications on the web that literally do nothing other than establish status. Are they worth $2000? not to me! But people buy them, and to those people, the apps are worth it.

"Something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it"
 
I can only imagine how much developers despise the Steam refund program. So many games that can be played through completely and refunded. I don't see any positives for developers at all. This is one case where you get the game play it through all thew way and tell the dev to go fuck themselves so that you got a free game out of it all.

Cases like this should be on a percentage play through basis.
 
I really dislike the whole "cost of a movie" comparison when discussing gaming. To me going to the movies is the most overpriced bullshit form of entertainment in existence.
 
Disposed said:
I really dislike the whole "cost of a movie" comparison when discussing gaming. To me going to the movies is the most overpriced bullshit form of entertainment in existence.
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That is a legitimate opinion! A lot of people aren't going to see movies any more because of the cost factor. For a lot of people, paying $20 for a movie ticket just isn't worth it.

The issue is that for other people, it IS worth it! So its really hard to draw a line on where the value lands.
 
BoogerBomb said:
I can only imagine how much developers despise the Steam refund program. So many games that can be played through completely and refunded. I don't see any positives for developers at all. This is one case where you get the game play it through all thew way and tell the dev to go fuck themselves so that you got a free game out of it all.

Cases like this should be on a percentage play through basis.
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The positive for developers is that people may be more likely to try a game they are on the fence about. Very few games are under two hours.
 
This is a great thread hearing both sides. But I work at Costc0 so do you want to hear some unbelievable return stories?

I beer left returned out of 24 returned didn't like the beer. Mattresses 12 years old returned. ETC., ETC.,....:) We also lose even more money shipping the stuff back!

I believe it is all about.....Did you get your moneys worth. For me, if I had a superb gaming experience the money does not matter.

But thankfully I am not broke like most people.

Skip Starbucks for 2 days and you paid for this game.
 
I knew this was gonna be about firewatch aka "GooneyBeardMan simulator" before the click through.

I am all for exploration and new gaming ideas, but for $18 you better provide something that is $18 of value to the average purchaser.

Given what I have seen, this is a $5-$10 title tops.
 
You bet your ass I'd get a Steam refund if I beat it in 2 hours. Using their crazy movie theater / fantasy land math, I should have paid around $5600 for my time in Battlefield 4 multiplayer.
 
Ocellaris said:
The positive for developers is that people may be more likely to try a game they are on the fence about. Very few games are under two hours.
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That is why I thought last night more games need Trials. Steam has a lot of them with the occasional FREE weekend. But then I guess if it has a trial then there shouldn't be refunds.
 
Disposed said:
I really dislike the whole "cost of a movie" comparison when discussing gaming. To me going to the movies is the most overpriced bullshit form of entertainment in existence.
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ABSOLUTELY! FTW!

I'm so old, I remember when games had DEMOs that were at least two hours long.
 
mavrocket said:
ABSOLUTELY! FTW!

I'm so old, I remember when games had DEMOs that were at least two hours long.
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I remember "No One Lives Forever". It was a multiplayer demo. 2 levels. Must have played that demo for 100 hours with friends.
 
BoogerBomb said:
I can only imagine how much developers despise the Steam refund program. So many games that can be played through completely and refunded. I don't see any positives for developers at all. This is one case where you get the game play it through all thew way and tell the dev to go fuck themselves so that you got a free game out of it all.

Cases like this should be on a percentage play through basis.
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Won't be long before dev's start adding 2 hours worth of unskippable cutscenes lol.
 
Mut1ny said:
Yeah, go play it then see if your thoughts stay the same. The 3 1/2 - 4 hours that it took me to finish the game consisted of me reading everything and looking around and actually taking my time. I did not, in any way, "rush" through the game. That average 3 1/2 hours it takes people to play this game is from actually taking their time.

Now I think most people who refunded did so because they felt that time was just one of the negative factors of the game. The guy that made the thread here in question seems pretty shitty to me because his ONLY gripe with the game was the length but apparently creamed himself over the rest. I however did finish the game but was disappointed by so much of it that I did refund. Yes I "used" the product but in the end it left me with a very sour taste in my mouth and didn't resolve anything. It had no ending. It was a cheap and crappy product in the end.

So yeah, that's why I say to play it. I get your points but I can't help but go "nope, nope, nope..." because, well, you'll see. Just wait til it's $5 to find out.
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No problem with that. If the game was bad it was bad. The reason I didn't play it, is because it didn't look interesting to me in the first place, so of course I'm not going to try it. However, if there was a game that DID look interesting to me, and was everything I thought it was, but I felt it was over too soon, I probably wouldn't return it just based on that.
 
Story based games always have this problem, but 2 hours is short even for them.

I like games with lots of replay value. There are some I've put THOUSANDS of hours into, and that cost less than $18...
 
KazeoHin said:
After all, because she doesn't like the portrayal of women in mainstream games industry, that means she WANTS TO DESTROY THE GAMES INDUSTRY AND HATES MEN AND WANTS TO SEE THE WORLD BURN.
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Are you Anita? People dislike her because she's a liar, opportunist, and a carpetbagger.

On a tangent: I don't like the portrayal of women in the game's industry these days either. They're written as if they are men in drag.
 
Kuraudo said:
Are you Anita? People dislike her because she's a liar, opportunist, and a carpetbagger.

On a tangent: I don't like the portrayal of women in the game's industry these days either. They're written as if they are men in drag.
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I have no idea what a carpetbagger is, but I have yet to see the 'liar' side of things. I admit I have not watched ALL of her videos, but the one I watched seemed level headed, if full of opinion, but nothing I would say was fabricated. I'm welcome to be proven wrong here.

As I said before, I don't agree with a lot of what she says, but "disagree" and "angrily send rape threats" are two different things.
 
KazeoHin said:
"disagree" and "angrily send rape threats" are two different things.
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This message needs to be broadcast to the greater internet.

Disagreeing is perfectly acceptable. Threatening people isn't.

That being said, many in the neo-fem movement will label you a "mansplainer" and a "sea lion" if you dare argue with them regarding a disagreement though, which is absolutely ridiculous.
 
KazeoHin said:
I have no idea what a carpetbagger is, but I have yet to see the 'liar' side of things. I admit I have not watched ALL of her videos, but the one I watched seemed level headed, if full of opinion, but nothing I would say was fabricated. I'm welcome to be proven wrong here.

As I said before, I don't agree with a lot of what she says, but "disagree" and "angrily send rape threats" are two different things.
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Here are a few to get started. If she was a dude, she would have been run out of town long ago:

2 guys disprove Anita Sarkeesian's Bayonetta review and proves she lies - Bayonetta 2 Message Board for Wii U - GameFAQs

Letters From a Fraud: Anita Sarkeesian Lies About GamerGate...Again

Wil Wheaton Repeats Moronic Lies About Anita Sarkeesian

Anita Sarkeesian lies about Tomb Raider, The Witcher 3 and E3 badges

Anita Sarkeesian gets exposed as a fraud by Stephen Colbert

r/videos
 
Ocellaris said:
Here are a few to get started. If she was a dude, she would have been run out of town long ago:

2 guys disprove Anita Sarkeesian's Bayonetta review and proves she lies - Bayonetta 2 Message Board for Wii U - GameFAQs

Letters From a Fraud: Anita Sarkeesian Lies About GamerGate...Again

Wil Wheaton Repeats Moronic Lies About Anita Sarkeesian

Anita Sarkeesian lies about Tomb Raider, The Witcher 3 and E3 badges

Anita Sarkeesian gets exposed as a fraud by Stephen Colbert

r/videos
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MOST of those are blocked by my worksite's firewall, being related to games, so I can't really look into them, but thanks for the info. I will say, from what I CAN read, it seems rather nitpicky.

Example: She claimed her kickstarter was flagged for terrorism, when in fact it was her YouTube account, not her kickstarter.... Therefore LIES!!!

To me, that seems REALLY FREAKING nitpicky.
 
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