New to SFF, wondering about build for office

K

ksd

n00b
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
11
Hi everyone,

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this - new to this site and not sure exactly where everything goes.

I'm a theoretical physics grad student in a small office with limited space. I need a compact machine due to these space constraints (mini-ITX), and I would like it to be as quiet as possible because I can't think when there's a ton of noise. I mainly will be doing basic office stuff. I often have dozens of academic papers (pdfs) open at once, I edit a ton of text/LaTeX, I Skype frequently, and I often watch talks/lecture videos. I also do quite a bit of coding, mainly in Mathematica. Sometimes this is heavy-duty, but I have access to a supercomputer if things actually get to that point. My computations are primarily symbolic, not numerical, since my research is more mathematically oriented.

In particular, I don't plan to do any gaming whatsoever on the machine, but I have dual 1440p monitors. I want to be able to run these at native resolution, at 60Hz, with good performance, basically no matter how much crap I have open on my screen. I think this is possible just with the integrated GPU on any new Intel processor. Correct me if I'm wrong?

My tentative plan was the following:

Case: Silverstone Sugo SG-13
CPU: i7-6700
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-H170N-WIFI
Cooler: Noctua L9i
GPU: none! or some kind of GTX 950 if I actually need it
Storage: Samsung 950 Pro 512GB
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury Black 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2133
Power Supply: Either Silverstone's 500W SFX-L or the 400W fanless Seasonic model
Case Fan: Nexus D12SL-12

My main questions are:

1) Do I need a graphics card at all?

2) What power supply I should use? I've heard the Silverstone makes some annoying noises (at least to some people), but it will probably not just overheat and die. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's a good idea to cram the Seasonic (which is guaranteed 100% quiet, right?) into this case with such limited airflow.

3) Since I'm going for a silent build, I have chosen a non-K processor so that I can run the L9i with the fan speed reducing cable, but I'm not sure if symbolic Mathematica computations make use of hyperthreading, or if hyperthreading even helps with dealing with large numbers of windows opened simultaneously. If not, would it be better to just save the $ and go for the i5-6600?

4) If I don't need a GPU, is there a decent smaller case like the Antec ISK-110? Theoretically, I should be able to get away with something like that, but I'd want more than a 110W PSU, and I've heard the ISK-110 has awful shielding issues.
 
For office stuff you have a lot of options for something small, low power and totally silent, i.e. fanless. I would start by checking out a NUC. Tinier than anything you can build yourself, and no fans. Completely silent. All you need to buy is RAM and storage, and obviously whatever OS you want. You can stick it in your jeans pocket if you feel so inclined!

I have the NUC5i3RYK and it is smaller than the slim DVD USB drive I have on my desk. It is a Broadwell i3, and the integrated HD5500 graphics are enough to push 4K at 60hz via DP 1.2 for desktop applications on my current monitor, albeit it is a single monitor setup. Everything is super snappy and responsive and I frequently have a zillion windows and tabs open working on numerous things at the same time on my 32" monitor.

I would imagine you could push two monitors at 1440p if it's just for basic desktop applications via daisy chaining DP 1.2, but I am not sure. This page has a link to in depth documentation that seems to indicate it is possible on the Broadwell generation of NUC's. So I would imagine if you purchased a Skylake i3, i5, or i7 you should be good to go.
 
Last edited:
Mathematica requirements
Only requires a Pentium 4 single core and 2GB RAM. However, performance probably depends on what you are actually doing. Additionally, it supports GPU acceleration, but again depends on what you are doing. What do you currently use and is that sufficient?

If one of your monitors supports 2560x1440 @60Hz over HDMI 1.4a and the other through DP, then a NUC/Brix with a 4th gen or higher CPU should work.

Note that not all models are fanless. Also, make sure you get the right RAM (DDR3L for DDR3 models) and drive, as some support mSATA and some support m.2 (which has multiple flavors) if not 2.5".

If you get it all figured out, a NUC or Brix can certainly be a great choice.
 
A NUC indeed seems to be the best choice for you. I don't think it's passive out of the box, but there are aftermarket cases available that cool it passively, and the external is passively cooled anyway. There are even ways to integrate a PSU into the case, if you dislike the idea of an external PSU.

That will be best in terms of noise and size, power should be absolutely sufficient for your use. If you want more performance than the best NUC can provide (which I don't think you'll need), you can also take a look at thin mITX, which is mITX with lower height components, for external PSUs and with a fixed processor location, which allows passive cases for that formfactor to be more compact and simplistic in terms of design than passively cooled ITX cases.
 
I'd also toss my oar in here on "Look at NUC/Brix systems" if you're only putting it in an office.
 
Pick up a case with expansion slot if you plan to keep the rig for long and upgrade monitors at some point. Integrated graphics should be fine with 1440p, but you will need a discrete card for connections for higher resolutions such as 5k. Lian Li PC-Q20 would be a stylish small case for office with a single expansion slot.
 
Thanks for the recommendations everyone. The NUCs were indeed on my radar, I was just afraid that the processors would be too weak to drive the monitors, but illram's experience with a 4k display puts me at ease.

As for Mathematica, that's something that people actually do serious computation with, so the minimum system requirements are not really an accurate measure of what is good. However, the calculations I tend to do are typically not super-heavyweight - exact, symbolic calculations in quantum field theory and general relativity tend to either be easy for any computer or impossible for any computer.

The naive thing to get right this second would probably be the NUC6i5SYK, and the i5-6260U in that machine seems to be about 50% worse than the i7-6700 on single core benchmarks, but about 25% better than my old laptop with an i5-2520M that I've been tolerating for years (and which is dying, which is why I'm building this in the first place!).

I kind of want to wait until Skull Canyon just to get the HDMI 2.0 port case in case I ever upgrade to 4k displays, but I'm afraid that box will be loud and annoying.
 
I'm thinking you might be happier with something along the lines of one of the ~1 liter business desktops, than a NUC (which uses dual core laptop CPUs typically), just because it looks like some of your workloads are fairly CPU-intensive.

So, that'd mean something like a ThinkCentre M-Series Tiny Desktop (I have an M73 Tiny with an i3-4130T that I paid all of $4 for at Goodwill, which I proceeded to stuff more RAM and an SSD into), OptiPlex Micro (disclaimer: Dell is my employer, but I'm not getting paid for this post), or EliteDesk Desktop Mini. You get 35 watt (or I think HP has 65 watt, but no idea what the noise would be like) desktop CPUs, including quad cores that turbo boost up decently, in a much smaller package than anything Mini-ITX. Downside is, you're never putting a GPU in there.

Those things are barely bigger than a 5.25" optical drive, and I think you can get 32 gigs of RAM into a Skylake one, a M.2 or mSATA (depending on age and how high-end it is) SSD, and a 2.5" HDD, nowadays. Oh, and you can get two DisplayPort ports, so no daisy-chaining required to get dual 1440p monitors. The power bricks are on the order of 65 watts, too, to power all of that, and it's fine.

Edit: On a second pass through the post, I'm thinking a possibility that would work well with the proposed build (although still not as optimal as the ~1 liter business desktop, due to the lack of front panel and such) is a Mini-Box M350 case, with a Pico-PSU - something like this kit if you want some headroom for turbo boost, or lower in the range if you don't). No room for a GPU, and you'd need a low-profile cooler (the Noctua L9i would be suitable, I believe), but it could work if you'd prefer DIY.
 
Last edited:
bhtooefr said:
I'm thinking you might be happier with something along the lines of one of the ~1 liter business desktops, than a NUC (which uses dual core laptop CPUs typically), just because it looks like some of your workloads are fairly CPU-intensive.

So, that'd mean something like a ThinkCentre M-Series Tiny Desktop (I have an M73 Tiny with an i3-4130T that I paid all of $4 for at Goodwill, which I proceeded to stuff more RAM and an SSD into), OptiPlex Micro (disclaimer: Dell is my employer, but I'm not getting paid for this post), or EliteDesk Desktop Mini. You get 35 watt (or I think HP has 65 watt, but no idea what the noise would be like) desktop CPUs, including quad cores that turbo boost up decently, in a much smaller package than anything Mini-ITX. Downside is, you're never putting a GPU in there.

Those things are barely bigger than a 5.25" optical drive, and I think you can get 32 gigs of RAM into a Skylake one, a M.2 or mSATA (depending on age and how high-end it is) SSD, and a 2.5" HDD, nowadays. Oh, and you can get two DisplayPort ports, so no daisy-chaining required to get dual 1440p monitors. The power bricks are on the order of 65 watts, too, to power all of that, and it's fine.

Edit: On a second pass through the post, I'm thinking a possibility that would work well with the proposed build (although still not as optimal as the ~1 liter business desktop, due to the lack of front panel and such) is a Mini-Box M350 case, with a Pico-PSU - something like this kit if you want some headroom for turbo boost, or lower in the range if you don't). No room for a GPU, and you'd need a low-profile cooler (the Noctua L9i would be suitable, I believe), but it could work if you'd prefer DIY.
Click to expand...
That case looks an awful lot like the Antec ISK-110. I think it should be relatively straightforward to replace the 90W picoPSU in that unit with a more powerful one - then I can get the front panel and have an enclosure which is just as small. I kind of like this idea because then I can have my cake and eat it too. The NUC is smaller than the ISK-110, but I'm not so strapped for space that I can't afford the few extra centimeters. I can even mount the ISK-110 to the back of one of my two monitors so that it uses zero additional space. But with this setup, I'd get to have a nice quad-core processor.

Is there any problem replacing the ISK-110's PSU in this way? Or is it even necessary? Maybe I can get away with a 65W processor in this thing?
 
Last edited:
You can Vesa mount a NUC.

I have replaced the ISK 110 with a Pico, only thing is the hole in the back is a different shape than the Pico power plug so it sort of hangs out. You need to either find a compatible plug or mod it to fit snugly. (Personally I just let it hang there as I have it mounted on my monitor out of sight). Also keep in mind that if use a bigger pico PSU you also need a bigger power brick and the bricks can get sort of big as you go up in power. Note the ISK 110 PSU is actually rated for 80w while the included brick is 90w.

I remain confident however that an i7 or even an i5 Broadwell or Skylake NUC will have more than enough processing power to handle your needs. If you really want the ISK 110 have you considered the 35w i7 6700T?
 
Last edited:
illram said:
You can Vesa mount a NUC.

I have replaced the ISK 110 with a Pico, only thing is the hole in the back is a different shape than the Pico power plug so it sort of hangs out. You need to either find a compatible plug or mod it to fit snugly. (Personally I just let it hang there as I have it mounted on my monitor out of sight). Also keep in mind that if use a bigger pico PSU you also need a bigger power brick and the bricks can get sort of big as you go up in power. Note the ISK 110 PSU is actually rated for 80w while the included brick is 90w.

I remain confident however that an i7 or even an i5 Broadwell or Skylake NUC will have more than enough processing power to handle your needs. If you really want the ISK 110 have you considered the 35w i7 6700T?
Click to expand...
First of all, I think I'm talking myself into the NUC, just because I've been stringing along with a piece of crap for a couple years now, and the NUC6i5SYK is certainly much better than what I have. I think my reluctance was just irrational gear lust for the quad-core i7 even though it probably isn't very important for my use case. As for selecting a NUC I don't want the Broadwell i7 because of noise concerns. The only thing that might compete in my mind with the i5 Skylake NUC is the upcoming Skull Canyon release, since HDMI 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3 seem cool, but honestly it seems like, again, irrational lust for unnecessary gear, especially since the sound profile of the Broadwell i7 NUC was so crappy and there isn't much reason to think they'll do better this time. Is there any good reason I might want to wait?

All that being said, before I reached this conclusion, I did think about the ISK 110, and maybe some of my conclusions will be helpful to someone:

I did consider the 6700T, as I started doing some research about processor models that might work in the ISK 110. The problem is that it's basically unavailable in the USA, as far as I can tell. It seems like the only place that carries it is Amazon, which has a used chip for $350, which is more than the MSRP of the 6700. New chips cost $479, which is ridiculous. I literally can't find any other source for this chip.

As for the 65W thing, I actually own an ISK 110 myself as an HTPC, which is why I brought it up (should have thought of it earlier, but my memory was only jogged when I saw the M350). I literally haven't visually seen my HTPC in a couple years, as it's hidden behind my TV so I suppose that's why. But I checked it and it has an i5-2405S, which is rated for - you guessed it - 65W. It has two SSD's and a low profile cooler attached to it. My Kill-A-Watt says the idle draw is around 25W and when I torture tested it with Prime95, the meter fluctuated around 85W, so that checks out with the power rating for the chip. It was stable for about 30 minutes, so I think a 65W chip is just barely within the range of the included 90W adapter.

So I think it is actually possible to get the ISK 110 and put the 6700 in there without replacing the PSU. I imagine a single M.2 drive is less additional power draw than two SSD's, so I can't imagine it being any worse than what I just did to my HTPC. I'm pretty sure I can't fry a 6700 that way (right?).

But like I said, this all seems pointless compared to just getting a NUC and being done with it.
 
Sorry for the double post, but there's a problem. I was doing my due diligence and checked the tech specs just to be sure that the NUC supports my resolution: http://downloadmirror.intel.com/25507/eng/NUC6i5SYB_NUC6i3SYB_TechProdSpec01.pdf

If you look at section 1.5.1.5, you can't actually run both 1440p monitors on the NUC at native resolution without daisy chaining over DisplayPort. Except the monitors I own don't support daisy chaining!

So I guess maybe I am getting the ISK 110 after all.
 
Like I said, you might also look at the micro desktops. The ThinkCentre M900 Tiny Desktop, OptiPlex 7040 Micro, and EliteDesk 800 G2 Desktop Mini would get you a 35 watt quad core in about 1.1-1.2 liters (and the EliteDesk is available with 65 watt CPUs, although I really wonder how loud it'd be).

That Antec case is about 3.7 liters, for comparison.

M900 Tiny gets you two DisplayPort plus optional HDMI or VGA, 7040 Micro gets you one DisplayPort, one HDMI, and optional VGA, and EliteDesk 800 G2 Mini gets you one DisplayPort, one VGA, and one optional HDMI or DisplayPort. And, all three have M.2 slots for SSDs, as well as 2.5" HDD support, and 35 watt CPU support.

I can say that my M73 Tiny (Haswell version of the M700 Tiny) with a 35 watt i3-4130T running full tilt stays pretty quiet in the default fan strategy, I stressed it to see how loud it'd get, although something with turbo boost may heat things up a bit more and need more fan speed. I suspect the 65 watt version of the EliteDesk 800 G2 Mini would be pretty awful in that regard, though.
 
bhtooefr said:
Like I said, you might also look at the micro desktops. The ThinkCentre M900 Tiny Desktop, OptiPlex 7040 Micro, and EliteDesk 800 G2 Desktop Mini would get you a 35 watt quad core in about 1.1-1.2 liters (and the EliteDesk is available with 65 watt CPUs, although I really wonder how loud it'd be).

That Antec case is about 3.7 liters, for comparison.

M900 Tiny gets you two DisplayPort plus optional HDMI or VGA, 7040 Micro gets you one DisplayPort, one HDMI, and optional VGA, and EliteDesk 800 G2 Mini gets you one DisplayPort, one VGA, and one optional HDMI or DisplayPort. And, all three have M.2 slots for SSDs, as well as 2.5" HDD support, and 35 watt CPU support.

I can say that my M73 Tiny (Haswell version of the M700 Tiny) with a 35 watt i3-4130T running full tilt stays pretty quiet in the default fan strategy, I stressed it to see how loud it'd get, although something with turbo boost may heat things up a bit more and need more fan speed. I suspect the 65 watt version of the EliteDesk 800 G2 Mini would be pretty awful in that regard, though.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I'm just extremely confused about what is possible with various ports now that I've found out that the NUC just can't support dual 1440p monitors at 60Hz without daisy chaining even though each port individually can handle one 1440p at 60Hz. Those options you mention do look reasonable, but it's moot if I can't even run my displays properly. Can I even be guaranteed that 2 x DisplayPort will allow me to run my monitors?
 
Possible multi-display issues aside, I have reconsidered and believe the Antec ISK 110 to be your best choice. The PSU it comes with can power a 65W Core i7-6700 system just fine. It can use the stock cooler, which is pretty quiet under normal loads. The case has better ventilation and CPU cooler clearance than a Mini-box M350. VESA mounted on back of a monitor would cause the monitor to act as a sound baffle, further reducing noise that you perceive from in front of the monitor.
 
In case anyone is curious, the basic problem with the NUC's onboard video is that although the HDMI 1.4 specification is generally able to handle 1440p monitors at 60Hz, Intel for some reason intentionally limits the resolution that the onboard video can output when two displays are connected. The Skylake i5 NUC's processor (the i5-6260U) has "Iris Graphics 540", and the 6700 that I'd like to buy has only "HD 530" graphics. So naively, I would say that no matter what ITX motherboard I get, I will not be able to successfully use my 1440p monitors, just because the onboard video of the 6700 is probably equally/more limited than that of the NUC. This limitation has apparently existed for the last several generations of Intel processors, if this article is to be believed.

So all that being said, I think I actually do need access to a graphics card. Or I can wait for the Skylake i7 NUC, which allegedly has both DP1.2 and HDMI2.0 and should be able to handle 1440p on both ports unless some other random restriction is placed on the HDMI2.0 port by the drivers for the onboard graphics on that chip.

EDIT: It actually looks like the ThinkCentre M900 Tiny might also fit the bill, according to the spec sheet!
 
Last edited:
The main problem with that is that, as the lore in the theoretical physics community goes, Mathematica runs very poorly on AMD processors. But I did consider this option.
 
i7 Skylake NUCs should be hitting shelves soon.

You don't need to daisy-chain if your monitors don't support it. You can buy external MST hubs that will split for you.
 
As far as I can tell, they're going to be available sometime in Q2. The teaser from CES 2016 was that we'd get details at GDC in mid-March. I can certainly wait until then, it's just a bit of a tease :)
 
Kaos_Drem said:
The i5 skylake nuc with the iris 540 is also pretty compelling.

http://ark.intel.com/products/89190/Intel-NUC-Kit-NUC6i5SYH

Its pretty surprising what its capable of even. I've used one first hand and even some mild gaming (league of legends @ 1080p full settings other than AA at 80-100fps) is possible.


http://nucblog.net/2016/01/skylake-i5-nuc-review-nuc6i5syh-nuc6i5syk/

Not my review, but a pretty thorough review overall.
Click to expand...
This was suggested earlier, and the problem is that it doesn't support dual 1440p monitors, as can be seen in 1.5.1.5 of the technical specifications: http://downloadmirror.intel.com/25507/eng/NUC6i5SYB_NUC6i3SYB_TechProdSpec01.pdf

You have to daisy chain, but my monitors don't support daisy chaining, and all the external MST hubs I've seen online have some pretty bad reviews. I'd much rather just have two DP ports.

After doing some research, the Lenovo ThinkCentre M900 Tiny really does meet all of my requirements and looks fabulous, but since I'm in no great rush to buy, I figure I'll just wait until the Skull Canyon NUC reviews come out and then I'll decide between the two.
 
ksd said:
This was suggested earlier, and the problem is that it doesn't support dual 1440p monitors, as can be seen in 1.5.1.5 of the technical specifications: http://downloadmirror.intel.com/25507/eng/NUC6i5SYB_NUC6i3SYB_TechProdSpec01.pdf

You have to daisy chain, but my monitors don't support daisy chaining, and all the external MST hubs I've seen online have some pretty bad reviews. I'd much rather just have two DP ports.

After doing some research, the Lenovo ThinkCentre M900 Tiny really does meet all of my requirements and looks fabulous, but since I'm in no great rush to buy, I figure I'll just wait until the Skull Canyon NUC reviews come out and then I'll decide between the two.
Click to expand...

I've used multiple MST hubs and they've all worked fine : shrug :
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top