I agree.
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S4 Mini - An ULTRA-SFF Chassis shipping this December!
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I agree.
I think you're misunderstanding something here - We're using [H]ard to talk with people interested in SFF and PC tinkering and get feedback, not to advertise since it's going to be a fraction of sales anyway compared to advertisement through the hardware media, social media and reddit regardless of how big the sales will be.
Also at this point as there's nothing NFC wants to change in his design there's actually no place to "help" him, as you stated, we're just trying to figure out reasoning behind his design and thus we're discussing this stuff with all of you here.
I tried to post a less direct response but I agree with the general sentiment.
That doesn't look like a threaded post to me
It is a
threaded post.
Some of them are hard to get out by hand (pliers help here). One of my OEMs needed some extra mounting points for grounds for their custom expansion boards. This helps, and also (I guess) offers some extra flexibility for extra mounting points for modders. But they are removable, so if you don't want them, you can take them out--and yes, you are 100% right, if you leave them in then getting the wrap around bezel is a pain. But that is why they are threaded posts and not pressed in.
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Oh, that's cool. I thought you misunderstood what I was talking about and the threaded posts were elsewhere. Now I get it why that's expensive - you need to thread the hole in the outer bezel.
There's one more thing I thought of - if you'd add one more pair of holes in the middle of the case you could've mount the drives in the middle and not over the gpu.
There's one more thing I thought of - if you'd add one more pair of holes in the middle of the case you could've mount the drives in the middle and not over the gpu.
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
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They are threaded posts (expensive, but worth.) Sometimes they are tight, but they do thread out. Then you can take the front off...but you really only need to do this for modding or painting because GPUs under 7.5" can be put in without removing any brackets.
The maximum card length is 8" INCLUDING a connector...so 7.5" is all you really could stick in if your connector is on the end.
If people want longer GPUs, I direct them to other chassis, like yours.
Most GPUs have their PEG connectors on the side, so saying 8 inches fit is totally fine.
It is a
threaded post.
Some of them are hard to get out by hand (pliers help here). One of my OEMs needed some extra mounting points for grounds for their custom expansion boards. This helps, and also (I guess) offers some extra flexibility for extra mounting points for modders. But they are removable, so if you don't want them, you can take them out--and yes, you are 100% right, if you leave them in then getting the wrap around bezel is a pain. But that is why they are threaded posts and not pressed in.
I think that's where the confusion came from. I initially assumed they were pressed in studs, but as you say, that wouldn't really work. That also explains why the bezel needs to be that thick, otherwise you wouldn't have enough depth for milling that blind threaded hole.
While I can completely understand why you and others would come to this conclusion, and the constant questions of the PL brothers can feel annoying at times, this is not about helping and it's not about making other designers look bad. They understood that it is being made as it is, but as an engineer, you learn by asking questions and questioning designs of others. And you also learn by having mistakes pointed out to you and questions asked to you. What you're reading here is not an attempt to expose the basic flaws of the design and thus promoting your own, it is a learning experience for Saper, Zombi, Josh and especially me. I know Josh had very capable engineers look over this design already, but being able to defend all design decisions against questions and concerns shows just how much thought has been put into this case and how every aspect of it can be justified. If you manage to do that, it is a really huge accomplishment.
It's something the designer of a halfed-assed design could never do, and I am very glad to read and listen to the questions and answers on this thread.
I'm grateful for your suggestions, and am writing them down for future product designs, but as for the S4 Mini's drives I didn't place them there without considerable planning and experimentation.
Moving them up would:
1. Limit heatsink compatibility
2. Force users to use ultra low profile ram.
3. Negate compatibility with the optional fan mount.
4. Make the SATA power and data cables not line up neatly
5. Force the cabling to run between drives and heatsink/ram
6. Limit heat evacuation for the motherboard/CPU
7. If moved to the middle they would still be covering the GPU.
Your chassis is great, I'm not attacking it or saying you are wrong in your design choices...I simply think my drive bracket is in the best possible place for my S4 Mini.
I know I have sounded defensive, and I am sorry about that, but it really is a matter of tone rather than how I feel. I do indeed listen and incorporate good ideas even if they go against my vision. For example, the S4's cover panel originally was a single piece shaped like a U. Based on feedback from customers and the manufacturer, it was changed to a two piece design even though the looks bothered me.
Similarly the chassis is wider than I would have liked. I increased the width by .25" which nearly killed me but I wanted to honor the feedback and good ideas I received from people who got to touch, hold, and use the S4 Prototypes.
So keep the ideas and feedback coming, and after I sell all the chassis I made here, R2 might incorporate the changes. Just be sure to save all the really great ideas for your own chassis!
Peace!
I totally agree. It's fun to talk tech and second guess yourself. Forums are a great place for this. I also liked doing it in real life, and although you can get some pretty crazy feedback (like the S3 Elite should support 240 rad or noone will take it seriously) for the most part everything helps.
Thanks for the compliments too, iFreilicht. They mean a HUGE amount coming from someone as talented and thoughtful as yourself.
I wasn't thinking about moving the drives but adding just two holes that would let you mount drives alternatively using two other holes from the fan mount over the motherboard.
My reason is that case is slightly too low for default box cooler so there's going to be a low profile aftermarket one most likely anyway.
But that's just as alternate config and only adding two more holes.
My reason is that case is slightly too low for default box cooler so there's going to be a low profile aftermarket one most likely anyway.
But that's just as alternate config and only adding two more holes.
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
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I totally agree. It's fun to talk tech and second guess yourself. Forums are a great place for this. I also liked doing it in real life, and although you can get some pretty crazy feedback (like the S3 Elite should support 240 rad or noone will take it seriously) for the most part everything helps.
Thanks for the compliments too, iFreilicht. They mean a HUGE amount coming from someone as talented and thoughtful as yourself.
Now that you say it, why didn't it have that? I mean I've gotta cool my titan X somehow, and it doesn't even have space for that! Ridiculous, who is going to buy this?!
Thanks man, means a lot. I don't have many people looking over my work right now, so every single bit of confirmation helps me keep it up.
I have another question:
What will Your selling model look like? I don't have a lot of experience in that field. Are You making 1 order at Your manufacturer per 1 sale on Your website? Maybe You are gathering at least 25-100 orders to make one big order? In that case You should get a discount for ordering bigger amount of pc-cases then only one, and You could earn a least 10-20% for future improvements. Or maybe You already ordered for example 100 pc-cases and You will be selling them from the stock? I'm asking, because with our pc case we think we'll go with gathering 100 orders, and then we'll make one big order in our manufacturing company... but we're still not sure if it is the best solution.
p.s.
I think i will make a little storm here but I have two words for those who are insulting me or my little bro.
Do You know that 70% questions we made (vent holes, wall thickness for threads, hdd's mounting points, temperatures, dust filters, possibilities of lowering the price, etc., etc.) weren't our own questions? They were made mostly in Sentry's topic by You (forum users) for the last 1,5 year. The only thing we did, was gathering them here. Thanks to such questions we are making our 5th prototype. But we got them through the whole project. If at the beginning we could have someone who would ask those all annoying questions then probably our 2nd prototype could be a production one, and we could also save a lot of time and money.
Now we saw someone like Josh who made a great pc case, and is asking what do we (as forum users) think? Of course we could be real assholes and keep our knowledge (which we got here) for ourselves, and we could just watch like everyone are clapping their hands with no real support. But no...we decided to show everything we know and give Josh an information what things he could think through once again. And guess what? If a designer is getting many weird questions from many users it is ok. But if a designer will get same amount of questions from just one, other designer, then this 2nd guy must be an asshole, who is sabotaging the project. This is the way You guys showed us how You think. You made those questions towards us, and they helped us with our project. Now we made them in Josh's topic, so he didn't have to wait for them 1.5 year, and now i think this was a bad idea. We assumed that Josh is an engineer and there is no leniency between engineers. You should defend Your design and if you can't in some fields, then You should improve it, because in the time it will cost You money. Engineers in this forum are mostly because they are waiting for such annoying questions, which could help their design, rather then waiting for Your clapping hands. If You don't understand it and You want to insult other people, then better go somewhere else (reddit, 4chan, etc.)
I think Josh isn't thinking in the way like some people here. If You (Josh) felt insulted by some of our questions, then sorry for that.
Thanks iFreilicht for support and understanding.
What will Your selling model look like? I don't have a lot of experience in that field. Are You making 1 order at Your manufacturer per 1 sale on Your website? Maybe You are gathering at least 25-100 orders to make one big order? In that case You should get a discount for ordering bigger amount of pc-cases then only one, and You could earn a least 10-20% for future improvements. Or maybe You already ordered for example 100 pc-cases and You will be selling them from the stock? I'm asking, because with our pc case we think we'll go with gathering 100 orders, and then we'll make one big order in our manufacturing company... but we're still not sure if it is the best solution.
p.s.
I think i will make a little storm here but I have two words for those who are insulting me or my little bro.
Do You know that 70% questions we made (vent holes, wall thickness for threads, hdd's mounting points, temperatures, dust filters, possibilities of lowering the price, etc., etc.) weren't our own questions? They were made mostly in Sentry's topic by You (forum users) for the last 1,5 year. The only thing we did, was gathering them here. Thanks to such questions we are making our 5th prototype. But we got them through the whole project. If at the beginning we could have someone who would ask those all annoying questions then probably our 2nd prototype could be a production one, and we could also save a lot of time and money.
Now we saw someone like Josh who made a great pc case, and is asking what do we (as forum users) think? Of course we could be real assholes and keep our knowledge (which we got here) for ourselves, and we could just watch like everyone are clapping their hands with no real support. But no...we decided to show everything we know and give Josh an information what things he could think through once again. And guess what? If a designer is getting many weird questions from many users it is ok. But if a designer will get same amount of questions from just one, other designer, then this 2nd guy must be an asshole, who is sabotaging the project. This is the way You guys showed us how You think. You made those questions towards us, and they helped us with our project. Now we made them in Josh's topic, so he didn't have to wait for them 1.5 year, and now i think this was a bad idea. We assumed that Josh is an engineer and there is no leniency between engineers. You should defend Your design and if you can't in some fields, then You should improve it, because in the time it will cost You money. Engineers in this forum are mostly because they are waiting for such annoying questions, which could help their design, rather then waiting for Your clapping hands. If You don't understand it and You want to insult other people, then better go somewhere else (reddit, 4chan, etc.)
I think Josh isn't thinking in the way like some people here. If You (Josh) felt insulted by some of our questions, then sorry for that.
Thanks iFreilicht for support and understanding.
Ordering one of these chassis at a time from my manufacturer would cost about $500, as an "fun" fact.
The front bezel alone costs about $75 bucks in material, milling, drilling, tapping, complex bending, brushing, anodizing and dying. The powder coat is about $30 bucks each spread over the cost. The anodizing and dying of the main frame is expensive, the amount of bends, inserts, and folds in the skeleton are expensive. The custom punchset for the ventilation is expensive. It turns out, boxes and packaging are an annoying expense too.
I was in serious discussion with no less than five manufacturers, after filtering out many more. My first prototypes I would hear nonsense from bidders who promised they could get them made up in a run for too good to be true prices. They always had to come back to me and told me they underestimated the design. The cost and the techniques have been well vetted. There is always room for improvement, and one of these days a genious engineer will say "Hey, can you do this instead and save money without reducing quality?"
But that is just on the manufacturing side of things. My development costs are ridiculous and I am not counting the thousands of hours (literally) I have in this project. The FCC testing was outrageous. The patent costs are outrageous. There are so many other developmental costs that I truly don't even want to think about.
Needless to say, I won't be making money off this project. My goal is to attend LAN parties and see one or two of my chassis floating around. That would be the coolest thing in the world to me!
Right now I hope to cover only manufacturing expenses, but it is a gamble, but any "sacrifices" I have made to achieve my dream have been well worth it.
Maybe I can get investor backing if this goes well and do a Lian Li sized run...but for right now, I am just excited and happy to have the opportunity to put these in the hands of enthusiasts who share my vision for U-SFF.
*edit*
If anyone has shipping figured out for overseas...that would be...SO helpful. Shipping is just eyepoppingly expensive once it leaves the USA!
The front bezel alone costs about $75 bucks in material, milling, drilling, tapping, complex bending, brushing, anodizing and dying. The powder coat is about $30 bucks each spread over the cost. The anodizing and dying of the main frame is expensive, the amount of bends, inserts, and folds in the skeleton are expensive. The custom punchset for the ventilation is expensive. It turns out, boxes and packaging are an annoying expense too.
I was in serious discussion with no less than five manufacturers, after filtering out many more. My first prototypes I would hear nonsense from bidders who promised they could get them made up in a run for too good to be true prices. They always had to come back to me and told me they underestimated the design. The cost and the techniques have been well vetted. There is always room for improvement, and one of these days a genious engineer will say "Hey, can you do this instead and save money without reducing quality?"
But that is just on the manufacturing side of things. My development costs are ridiculous and I am not counting the thousands of hours (literally) I have in this project. The FCC testing was outrageous. The patent costs are outrageous. There are so many other developmental costs that I truly don't even want to think about.
Needless to say, I won't be making money off this project. My goal is to attend LAN parties and see one or two of my chassis floating around. That would be the coolest thing in the world to me!
Right now I hope to cover only manufacturing expenses, but it is a gamble, but any "sacrifices" I have made to achieve my dream have been well worth it.
Maybe I can get investor backing if this goes well and do a Lian Li sized run...but for right now, I am just excited and happy to have the opportunity to put these in the hands of enthusiasts who share my vision for U-SFF.
*edit*
If anyone has shipping figured out for overseas...that would be...SO helpful. Shipping is just eyepoppingly expensive once it leaves the USA!
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For Europe, you can save a bundle if you can set up a distribution centre. Ship every order over in one go via sea freight, pay tax in one single shot (BIG saving for all involved, and more convenient for recipients) then distribute within the EU with each individual case shipment having no customs, duties, tax etc. to deal with from then on. I don't have any personal experience with a distributor, so unfortunately I cannot offer any reccomendations.
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Aircoookie
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2015
- Messages
- 375
I think that would be very positive for the whole project. I would heavily consider the case, if there weren't a $90 shipping costs
Edit: Now considering it still heck of a shipping cost...
Edit: Now considering it
still heck of a shipping cost...
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The cheapest transport we found from EU to the USA and Canada is like $50-70 (for a 3kg package). + tax at customs.
There is a way to do it cheaper, which EdZ mentioned.
We have many logistic/distribution companies in EU. They are working just like a magazine/stock. You could sign a contract with them, and You will be just sending them packages. When You will sell one of Your cases, then You will be giving them the new address + paying price for their fee(margin) and transport. The difference between the standard reseller and the logistics company is that, a reseller is usually more expensive, because he's also investing in Your product, for example by making some advertising. Logistics companies works similarly to the Post. This idea is good if You make a bigger preorder of your pc-cases at a manufacturer and You believe You will be able to sell them later. The bad side of it is also a "bigger preorder" of Your cases. I mean You need to have a lot of money to buy from You manufacturer all of those cases, even if You don't know if You will sell them. In You case, You will need $18500 just for preordering 100 cases (riser included). In this idea You have to be a good gambler and decide if You have so much money to invest or will it be better to play safer and send Your case one by one.
There is also another option.
You can find someone in EU (maybe in this forum), who will be sending Your pc case to other enthusiasts. The selling-model would look like this: On Your website You'll be making a "S4 giveaway". The person who will win, will get his own S4 pc case for free, but he will get another 5 or 10 pc cases to resend them inside the EU. Of course You will have to give that person a money for that transport, but in this model, this lucky winner will sign a contract with You and he'll get his own S4 just for going to the post and adding a sticker with the address on the package.
If someone has some other idea, we'll also listening We have similar problem with sending packages to the USA and Canada At this moment we think we'll stay with sending model one-by-one, until we'll find something better.
There is a way to do it cheaper, which EdZ mentioned.
We have many logistic/distribution companies in EU. They are working just like a magazine/stock. You could sign a contract with them, and You will be just sending them packages. When You will sell one of Your cases, then You will be giving them the new address + paying price for their fee(margin) and transport. The difference between the standard reseller and the logistics company is that, a reseller is usually more expensive, because he's also investing in Your product, for example by making some advertising. Logistics companies works similarly to the Post. This idea is good if You make a bigger preorder of your pc-cases at a manufacturer and You believe You will be able to sell them later. The bad side of it is also a "bigger preorder" of Your cases. I mean You need to have a lot of money to buy from You manufacturer all of those cases, even if You don't know if You will sell them. In You case, You will need $18500 just for preordering 100 cases (riser included). In this idea You have to be a good gambler and decide if You have so much money to invest or will it be better to play safer and send Your case one by one.
There is also another option.
You can find someone in EU (maybe in this forum), who will be sending Your pc case to other enthusiasts. The selling-model would look like this: On Your website You'll be making a "S4 giveaway". The person who will win, will get his own S4 pc case for free, but he will get another 5 or 10 pc cases to resend them inside the EU. Of course You will have to give that person a money for that transport, but in this model, this lucky winner will sign a contract with You and he'll get his own S4 just for going to the post and adding a sticker with the address on the package.
If someone has some other idea, we'll also listening
We have similar problem with sending packages to the USA and Canada At this moment we think we'll stay with sending model one-by-one, until we'll find something better.USPS is honestly the cheapest way.
Would it be possible as an option for us overseas buyers for us to purchase HD-Plex 250W power supplies through you? As in you order them, have them shipped to you, then deliver in the same package with the case?
Also is there a proper mount for the HD-Plex 250W?
Yeah, I'm too small for a normal retailer or distributor. I'd have to pretty much have stuff made and shipped by boat FROM the factory. I also don't have enough of a margin for a reseller. [/QUOTE]
At this time I can't resell them, but you CAN order them, have them shipped to me, and I can ship them in the S4 Box to you. This could save you alot of money.
No, I forget which video I have that explains it, but the velcro solution is best because you need to be able to adjust the position of the Plex for different motherboards (both by flipping it, and by moving it as much as 1". The fit is very tight and solid and sounds dirty, but as you can see in an upcoming vid it looks legit.
redivulpis
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
- 223
Amazing little case! I'm definitely interested in picking one up in the near future to further downsize my rig. This thing is right down my alley. Love those Bulgin switches too.
I've been shooting all week...sorry for the delay. Maybe next week?
NFC - Just got done watching your FAQ video. It's inspiring to see someone with the drive and design chops to advance SFF form factor to the next logical layout. Thank you. You may be familiar with my Little Mac build which is similar to the S4 mini except for GPU orientation. And that's my question. Why face the CPU in GPU opposite directions? What lead to this decision? Did thermal testing show this to be more desirable? Say three years in the future... Would you ever consider designing a case the same size and quality of the S4 but with CPU and GPU facing the same direction? Please say yes. Thanks. - Runamok81
Niskus, the S3 Mini never made it to production. Hence, the questions.
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,348
I wouldn't say the S3 didn't make it to production, but it certainly was a very small run. The main issue I see with a flipped GPU is the cost of the riser and the lost space for 2.5" drives. Additionally, if the mainboard is so close to the GPU, the PCIe connectors intrude into the mainboard component area, which means you either have to make the case wider or thicker.
The additional fan mounting would be harder to realise as well. Right now it's integrated into the motherboard mount, but if the GPU was flipped, you'd need a bracket the length of the case to mount a fan there.
Not saying that a flipped GPU doesn't have advantages, but I can certainly see why Josh settled on this solution.
The additional fan mounting would be harder to realise as well. Right now it's integrated into the motherboard mount, but if the GPU was flipped, you'd need a bracket the length of the case to mount a fan there.
Not saying that a flipped GPU doesn't have advantages, but I can certainly see why Josh settled on this solution.
I am now...awesome build man! I am very...VERY familiar with the "Logic Supply MC600" however...
Having the expansion card oriented in the same manner as the mainboard in a horizontal plane is something I do believe in strongly, and has been an obsession of mine.
As it was pointed out earlier, the S3 Mini (and before that the S2, and S3 Elite) employed this layout. While not true for ALL expansion cards, a great majority of them (in terms of cooling) benefit from this layout when the chassis is placed in a horizontal position.
The reason for moving away from this design in the S4 are mini (hah...ha...*cough* sorry) despite the advantages for cooling. iFreilicht (as usual) touched all the problems with the design, but diving deeper into the "why":
1. I was threatened with losing the ownership of this design from copycats with more lawyers than me who I initially went to looking for advice and expertise. Pro tip, not all NDAs are effective. It hurt to move away from this idea but I wanted to be able to produce the chassis in case they were able to secure the sole rights (they weren't).
2. A huge reason is the S3 Mini, although even smaller than the S4 and as thermally efficient, was an "expert mode" chassis that was very difficult to do a clean build in. The GPU orientation added to that difficulty:
-The ribbon cable made installing SSDs and their wiring difficult.
-The ribbon cable's length proved to be an issue in shipping (multiple reasons)
-Wasted space on the key-side of the GPU because of the ribbon connector.
-Difficult for some length of bulgin switches because of orientation
There were more reasons, and I still think the S3 is a great chassis that performs VERY well given its incredibly small size...but I wanted my first "retail" chassis to be less "modder ONLY" oriented.
I see your point, but more accurately I never felt comfortable offering it retail. I built over a 110 of them, which is a small run, I know, but enough for me to really understand its strengths and weaknesses. I sold the chassis and chassis kits to people I had a chance to talk to first and explain what they were getting into. It is hard enough explaining how different the S4 is with DC-DC requirements and a ribbon cable! But I had no returns, and everyone was happy. It was alot of work though (walking with customers in that level of detail) so for the S4 Mini I made sacrifices in size that netted huge benefits (I believe) in cooling, versatility, ease of install, and hardware compatibility.
Yes and no. I want to bring back the S3 Mini when it is the right time and when I finished my PCIE Keyless design. This will solve problems regarding "key clipping" when using PCB risers. It won't be the same size as the S4 Mini, which had to grow to support the features it has now.
I have another Mini-ITX chassis design that is now several years old that is waiting its turn to come out and play, and by then I think computer components will be low enough wattage to really make the S3 Mini v2 shine.
Thank you, Runamok for your excellent questions. And again iFreilicht and niksus for your continued support.
Back to work on the videos...
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TheDrifter363
n00b
- Joined
- May 25, 2014
- Messages
- 40
Hi Josh,
If you ever get the chance, I had a few questions I wanted to ask you.
I was thinking about getting your case, it would be an upgrade from my Lone Industries L3. Do you plan to make more production runs whenever this first batch sells out? I was planning on hopefully pairing this with a r9 nano and an I5 4690K. I know the processor is not a T variant, but I would undervolt and/or underclock it until it matches the T variant specifications. Currently I have the Pico PSU 160 XT, but I don't think it would provide enough power for this setup. I'm not an engineer so I'm unsure if the DC to DC converter is a purely passive component which relies on the external power supply, or if it has a hard cap around 160 Watts load, with a 200 Watt short burst. Regardless, if I settle for the hdplex 250 watt, you mentioned having a hard time mounting the connector on your case. I wouldn't want you to drill holes, since it would be nice to still have that Pico backwards compatibility. I noticed that the hdplex has a 4 pin molex connector for power in which it would receive from the external power supply. I was planning on getting a 4 pin molex to 4 pin mini din, similar to the picopsu. Basically I didn't want to use that mounting adapter they provided. But I don't know if that mounting adapter contains any parts crucial to the functioning of the hdplex. It is a wide input dc to dc device, but on the 4 pin molex connector on the hdplex itself, I noticed the pinout says 19V. Does the mounted power connector contain some components to convert any of the other voltages to 19v, or is it a purely passive component? Because if it does play some part in converting the voltages, I would have to stick with a 19V adapter and not exceed that. Though if it does not play a convert in converting the voltages, and if the mounting bracket is simply a mounting bracket, then I can at least go up to 24V. I don't have a hdplex 250 watt, so I thought I would ask someone with the device in their hand. It was hard to get clear pictures of the DC in of the hdplex. There are no youtube videos of anyone purchasing the device either.
Any help would be appreciated!
If you ever get the chance, I had a few questions I wanted to ask you.
I was thinking about getting your case, it would be an upgrade from my Lone Industries L3. Do you plan to make more production runs whenever this first batch sells out? I was planning on hopefully pairing this with a r9 nano and an I5 4690K. I know the processor is not a T variant, but I would undervolt and/or underclock it until it matches the T variant specifications. Currently I have the Pico PSU 160 XT, but I don't think it would provide enough power for this setup. I'm not an engineer so I'm unsure if the DC to DC converter is a purely passive component which relies on the external power supply, or if it has a hard cap around 160 Watts load, with a 200 Watt short burst. Regardless, if I settle for the hdplex 250 watt, you mentioned having a hard time mounting the connector on your case. I wouldn't want you to drill holes, since it would be nice to still have that Pico backwards compatibility. I noticed that the hdplex has a 4 pin molex connector for power in which it would receive from the external power supply. I was planning on getting a 4 pin molex to 4 pin mini din, similar to the picopsu. Basically I didn't want to use that mounting adapter they provided. But I don't know if that mounting adapter contains any parts crucial to the functioning of the hdplex. It is a wide input dc to dc device, but on the 4 pin molex connector on the hdplex itself, I noticed the pinout says 19V. Does the mounted power connector contain some components to convert any of the other voltages to 19v, or is it a purely passive component? Because if it does play some part in converting the voltages, I would have to stick with a 19V adapter and not exceed that. Though if it does not play a convert in converting the voltages, and if the mounting bracket is simply a mounting bracket, then I can at least go up to 24V. I don't have a hdplex 250 watt, so I thought I would ask someone with the device in their hand. It was hard to get clear pictures of the DC in of the hdplex. There are no youtube videos of anyone purchasing the device either.
Any help would be appreciated!
TheDrifter, these are phenomenal questions and I will do my best to answer them...but I think I'll need some help from the forum too
Too early to tell...I'm caught in the middle of this being a hobby that has business components. If things go smoothly then yes, but if it becomes too much work then I don't know...
That is ALOT of undervolting! Personally this is my JAM so I say go for it, but it would be an undertaking to power that system with the Pico. You would DEFINITELY need to beef up the Pico's wiring and long term get some cooling on the pico. I suggest some passive heatsinks with a good permanent thermal conducter.
I'm not qualified to make engineering statements on Mini-Box's products. Anecdotally, I have done some mods where I ran 250 watt systems off them (with the wiring replaced). It does rely on an external power supply, but finding a 12v brick with enough amperage is challenging. See the above video link if you haven't already.
You can simply replace the connector!
In fact that's what I do for some of my mods.
You can even use the Pico 4 pin connector if you want, but keep in mind the HDPLEX 16v-24v input, and I haven't tried running it off a 12v power brick. I have used the system, but not to the tremendous extent I have the Pico, which I love and highly recommend if possible.
Purely passive
Here is a front and back picture, as you can see it spreads a ground for the chassis mounts. Maybe you would want to include that:
HDPLEX Connector Topside:
HDPLEX Connector Bottomside
I'll close by saying I have ONE HDPLEX in my lab. ONE. It's worked so far, and I shamefully included it on my website to help push my chassis. I have ordered and used scores of Picos and those things are absolutely bulletproof. So I have no idea how the HDPLEX handles overwattage over a long period of time. It seems like a very well built unit however, and it certainly uses high quality materials and components.
I HOPE THIS HELPS!!!! Thanks for the great questions!
Too early to tell...I'm caught in the middle of this being a hobby that has business components. If things go smoothly then yes, but if it becomes too much work then I don't know...
That is ALOT of undervolting! Personally this is my JAM so I say go for it, but it would be an undertaking to power that system with the Pico. You would DEFINITELY need to beef up the Pico's wiring and long term get some cooling on the pico. I suggest some passive heatsinks with a good permanent thermal conducter.
I'm not qualified to make engineering statements on Mini-Box's products. Anecdotally, I have done some mods where I ran 250 watt systems off them (with the wiring replaced). It does rely on an external power supply, but finding a 12v brick with enough amperage is challenging. See the above video link if you haven't already.
You can simply replace the connector!
In fact that's what I do for some of my mods.
You can even use the Pico 4 pin connector if you want, but keep in mind the HDPLEX 16v-24v input, and I haven't tried running it off a 12v power brick. I have used the system, but not to the tremendous extent I have the Pico, which I love and highly recommend if possible.
Purely passive
Here is a front and back picture, as you can see it spreads a ground for the chassis mounts. Maybe you would want to include that:
HDPLEX Connector Topside:
HDPLEX Connector Bottomside
I'll close by saying I have ONE HDPLEX in my lab. ONE. It's worked so far, and I shamefully included it on my website to help push my chassis. I have ordered and used scores of Picos and those things are absolutely bulletproof. So I have no idea how the HDPLEX handles overwattage over a long period of time. It seems like a very well built unit however, and it certainly uses high quality materials and components.
I HOPE THIS HELPS!!!! Thanks for the great questions!
Last edited:
TheDrifter363
n00b
- Joined
- May 25, 2014
- Messages
- 40
Thanks Josh! I really appreciate all your help. Right now I'm trying to understand pinouts and how they all work with each other. I found a 250 watt mean well 12v power supply. Check it out:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/GST280A12-C6P/?qs=XfZQyRplo5S6bkFXOs4q7w==
It appears to be the largest capacity 12V power supply for under a 100 dollars. They had a 300 watt one by ETA, but it was around 215. Too much money. Lol. The TDP of the r9 nano is at 175 Watts. If I can reduce the consumption of the I5 4690K to around 50 Watts at max load, I should be below 250 Watts. Not by much though.
When it comes to the wiring, can you have two conductors off of one pin out? For example, take a look at this 4 pin molex pin out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex...8AMP_MATE-N-LOK_1-480424-0_Power_Connector.29
Pin 1 is the 12V line, while Pins 2 and 3 are ground, and Pin 4 is 5 V. Ignoring Pin 4, can I have two conductors coming off of Pin 1. Will there be a negative impact to this? I saw you did this in your video. I always thought it was one conductor for one pin. This is a rule. Hmm....I don't know much about this. Would the voltage line lose current if I proceeded to do this? I plan to either get, or build, a molex to 8 pin pci express connector. I need to look at the pin out for that too. More research needs to be done.
Thanks again Josh, you're a great help. I love all these restrictions you have with your case. It gets me excited to see how much graphical power I could squeeze from all this. Its quite impressive. Your case is the only one that can fit a mini itx graphics card and that also uses an external power supply. I currently have the Lone Industries L3, and while it is a great case, it can only fit low profile video cards like the GTX 750 TI.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/GST280A12-C6P/?qs=XfZQyRplo5S6bkFXOs4q7w==
It appears to be the largest capacity 12V power supply for under a 100 dollars. They had a 300 watt one by ETA, but it was around 215. Too much money. Lol. The TDP of the r9 nano is at 175 Watts. If I can reduce the consumption of the I5 4690K to around 50 Watts at max load, I should be below 250 Watts. Not by much though.
When it comes to the wiring, can you have two conductors off of one pin out? For example, take a look at this 4 pin molex pin out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex...8AMP_MATE-N-LOK_1-480424-0_Power_Connector.29
Pin 1 is the 12V line, while Pins 2 and 3 are ground, and Pin 4 is 5 V. Ignoring Pin 4, can I have two conductors coming off of Pin 1. Will there be a negative impact to this? I saw you did this in your video. I always thought it was one conductor for one pin. This is a rule. Hmm....I don't know much about this. Would the voltage line lose current if I proceeded to do this? I plan to either get, or build, a molex to 8 pin pci express connector. I need to look at the pin out for that too. More research needs to be done.
Thanks again Josh, you're a great help. I love all these restrictions you have with your case. It gets me excited to see how much graphical power I could squeeze from all this. Its quite impressive. Your case is the only one that can fit a mini itx graphics card and that also uses an external power supply. I currently have the Lone Industries L3, and while it is a great case, it can only fit low profile video cards like the GTX 750 TI.
I might be misunderstanding you, so forgive me.
Any electrical mods I do I do my best to analyze the hardware and confirm with visual inspection (if possible) and with the multimeter where, why, and how power is being distributed. In case of many of the power bricks I have tested the power is usually coming off a single solder point and is split into multiple lines for what I assume is heat reduction while retaining flexibility (and saving money on heavier gauge wire). Any electrical engineer can and should correct me here if I am wrong...
In case of multiple lines for ground I do find that internally the bundles do achieve ground in more than one place.
So to directly answer your question...yes, you can branch off a conductor...just be positive that the "trunk" is heavy enough gauge to carry your combined current, and don't forget about the ground.
Now is it it code? I seriously doubt it...but I am a redneck and don't worry about such things
AfterWork by Josh Sniffen, on Flickr There is a voltage drop anytime you add more copper, but most AC to DC power supplies compensate so there is absolutely no issue. The Meanwell I use in that video is a bit different and you need to manually adjust the voltage output, so I might have added some confusion there...
Pretty much ALL of my custom S3 Mini builds convert from the 4 pin molex to a 6 (or 8) pin PCIE. You can get an adapter, but if your card needs an 8 pin that means it probably draws enough power to where you need to replace the wires on your Pico anyways.
What I am getting at (and with that video) is that the Pico is a tough unit and can take some serious punishment--but if you are aiming for the 250w range long term it might be best to go for the HDPLEX. 185 watts...the Pico can run all day every day with some light mods and a stick on heatsink...that being said...my "for kicks" system with a 285ITX never blew up and it peaked at 265...soooooo
The L3 is a great case! There are so many AMAZING mini-itx cases by enthusiasts for enthusiasts out now AND in development. I stuck my head under a rock for the last several years working on my project...but if I had paid attention to all these great cases I might not have bothered. I have a Christmas list a mile long filled with mini-itx chassis!
Thank YOU for talking with me about stuff I love to talk about...xD
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,348
What do you mean by "Keyless" and "key clipping"? Are you talking about the space that is wasted on the side of the card edge connector of the GPU when using a ribbon cable?
I mean no more PCIE Key.
Just saw that my case is in transit - went out from Gulfport, MS yesterday and is in Memphis, TN right now. Exciting!
(Sadly, I'll be out of the country until mid-January. But my plan is to be hooking up a higher wattage setup w/ a HDPLEX both w/ an AC HP Firebird 350W power supply and a 22V or 24V battery solution (w/ a Vive devkit) once I'm back in town.)
(Sadly, I'll be out of the country until mid-January. But my plan is to be hooking up a higher wattage setup w/ a HDPLEX both w/ an AC HP Firebird 350W power supply and a 22V or 24V battery solution (w/ a Vive devkit) once I'm back in town.)
I'm not ready for pictures of it yet, so here is a placeholder of a grasshopper doing karate:
Thanks! I am super excited and I appreciate the kind words.
Can't wait to see your build
I am looking to add Lian Li aluminum casters to the bottom of the case and use it in a horizontal position with a R9 Nano. However it looks like the venting layout on the bottom will not accommodate for this. I believe I will only be able to attach two of the feet on the one side where the venting pattern doesn't go all the way to the edge. Any recommendations?
Is there perhaps any spec sheet I could look at? Maybe some technical drawings?
You have about an inch to mount them, maybe countersink the reverse side of the panel?
This is really interesting...can't wait to see what you come up with!
