The solution is the government negotiates the best price they can wring from a company. You know, like every other business transaction is conducted.
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How Much More Does Medication Cost In The US?
- Thread starter Megalith
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The solution is the government negotiates the best price they can wring from a company. You know, like every other business transaction is conducted.
From what I've seen, I agree on the costs/deductibles vs COBRA...don't know about self insuring pre AHCA. The problem here, I suspect, is that the plans are not negotiated by the States properly.
There's absolutely no reason why my current insurance at work (which is about 500/month with dental) shouldn't be available for the same price..and even that's not cheap, but it's much better than the AHCA rates I've seen.
I only compare it to what I currently have, because if I comared it to something 15 years ago, it'd look horrible...just like my current insurance looks horrible in comparison, even though it's better than most insurance.
Then you need to explain why life expectancy in Canada in 2 years greater than here. They're in the top 9, while we're hanging in at 34. I guess it's possible that people have more money in Canada and they all go outside the system, but I doubt it.
TwistedAegis
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The bottom line is: the US government spends more, per capita, to not cover everyone, than every other major G7 country does to cover everyone.
I learned two things taking care of my sister while she battled osteosarcoma. 1. There is literally a price you can put on someone. A literal dollar amount and it is unaffordable to most. 2. The healthcare system is broken from top to bottom. Million dollar costs and care that almost got her killed due to negligence.
As a disclaimer my father is a cardiologist, my mother was a nurse for 30 yrs. I'm very familiar with the system and its more broken every year.
As a disclaimer my father is a cardiologist, my mother was a nurse for 30 yrs. I'm very familiar with the system and its more broken every year.
I don't think the bottom line is government spending. It's the total money spent on healthcare divided by the population.
Deadly Ramon
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The Angus Reid surveys I cited pointed to deficiencies in the maintenance and delivery of Canadian health care and to a lot more mixed approval of emergency room treatment. The rest of my initial response linked to Dr. Timothy Evans's testimony at a Heritage Foundation panel in 2001 which addressed issues and nuances with the United Kingdom's health care and discussed the increasing role of independent sector hospitals in providing care to patients who were otherwise reliant on the National Health Service for their medical needs. Your friend's argumentum ad populum (Canada and England are doing it, so the United States should follow suit) logical fallacy was hardly a comparative analysis, so it did not warrant a reply consisting of a contrastive analysis.
Your incorrect inference, or what you misperceive as implications of mine, are solely attributable to you. Interpreting "long wait times are a sign of inefficiency" to mean "longer wait times" are "the only indicator of inefficiency" takes significant eisegetical liberties with what I actually said.
Which it isn't.
Way to bring the Netherlands into this, because its populace, just like those of the UK and Canada, is comparable to the United States's in every respect, from ethnicity to religion to dietary, work, and recreational habits; they probably follow the same television programs, too.
All sarcasm aside, the fact remains that what might work in one country does not make it guaranteed to work in another one, and there are issues with the Dutch health care service regarding accessibility to health care and increasing patient costs (the latter resulting in persistent risk selection by public and private insurers, despite efforts to reduce or eliminate such activity via legal regulation) that tarnish the utopian image presented by proponents of the U.S. emulating select foreign countries' socialized medicine systems.
That you were using weasel words (e.g, "numerous studies from other publications") to make an argument is indisputable. That you then try to justify your fallacious thinking by committing the tu quoque logical fallacy just compounds your errors.
Cmdrmonkey
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lol at using American exceptionalism as an argument for why something that has worked for literally every other country on the planet Earth wouldn't work in the US.
Ya'll keep spouting this shit. However, it is well know that MAJOR procedures take forever in your healthcare meccas.
That and those assholes who have money in those great socialist healthcare utopias pay out of pocket to come to MD Anderson and the like for treatment.
The USA funds and pays for a good majority of the healthcare research that these other countries then use. It is why we have places like MD Anderson who leads in Cancer research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending
It doesn't fucking work in other countries. Nor does it work without our money.
Cmdrmonkey
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It's cheaper, they live 10-15 years longer than we do, and everyone has access to healthcare. Sounds like it works fine to me.
Cmdrmonkey
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Fucking lol at this. I have many European friends. Not only do they not come to the US for healthcare, they are terrified to even vacation here due to our lack of universal healthcare. Stop spouting Republican talking points. It's so easy to talk to people from other countries now all that bullshit is easily refuted. Also tons of people go to Canada for healthcare and cheap drugs. I've never heard of Canadians coming here.
Cmdrmonkey
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Our healthcare system is the laughing stock of other countries. So hilarious to see Republicans trying to defend it even though we have a worse healthcare system than many third world countries.
Cmdrmonkey
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We're #1....
In infant mortality and having the lowest life expectancy of any developed country.
Let's all be proud of our shitacular healthcare system even though it's terrible and doesn't work for anyone other than the extremely wealthy.
In infant mortality and having the lowest life expectancy of any developed country.
Let's all be proud of our shitacular healthcare system even though it's terrible and doesn't work for anyone other than the extremely wealthy.
Go walk around MD Anderson and see how many foreigners there are getting treatment for their Kemo.
Most of your friends probably haven't had a major medical event that they are put on a waiting list for either.
Again other countries have cheap drugs from OUR research money. Stop being a dimwit. Herp Derp republic talking points, all you need to do now is scream FOX NEWS!
Cmdrmonkey
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Why would they come here and risk bankruptcy when they can get free cancer treatment at home?
Typical Lib talking point. Nothing is fucking free, and their cancer treatment was developed with our "shitty healthcare".
Fairies and Unicorns is all you think about.
Cmdrmonkey
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Also the US is #5 in timeliness of care, so there goes that argument. Those socialist systems also tend to deliver faster or similarly fast care.
CUZ FREEDUM
Cmdrmonkey
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Okay it's covered by their taxes. We also pay taxes and don't get healthcare. Their healthcare is also cheaper than ours. So they are getting more for their money, and it's covered by their taxes so they don't pay anything out of pocket.
What do our taxes pay for exactly? I know trillions go into killing brown people in far off lands. Yet we can't provide every citizen with healthcare. Let's all be proud of country even though we have nothign to be proud of when it comes to healthcare. Our system is expensive, inhumane garbage that's also of dreadful quality for most people.
Prove it with facts rather than your lame proclamations. European citizens laugh at us for allowing our health care system to syphon citizens' money. You can spout specialized treatments all you want but the cold hard facts are people live longer in other countries and have better health care outcomes. Those are facts. Until you back your statements up the facts win over BS every day of the week.
People in Canada are different than people in the US?
The US has more drug users, gangs and homeless to start with.
That has less to do with our health care system, and more to do with the life choices people make.
twonunpackmule
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Also, more people in general.
TwistedAegis
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So the 1% or 0.1% can get the best care here, that's for sure.
But that's like saying, everyone goes to Italy for their Ferraris; that isn't a solution for transportation for the masses.
TwistedAegis
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And further, if you divide US government healthcare spending by our population, even though it doesn't cover everyone, that per capita amount is still greater than those countries that do cover everyone. That's what I'm trying to say; we're throwing huge sums of money away to line people's pockets via insurance, rather than simply providing health care.
choppedliver
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Our system sucks, and it's expensive.
Don't worry. Odumbocare will fix all your ills
Don't worry. Odumbocare will fix all your ills
Semantics
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You do know some of those counties allow for out of pocket spending for procedures...they don't have to come to the US.
Deadly Ramon
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Even before the so-called Affordable Care Act was only a small percentage (13.5%) of the U.S. population uninsured, and many of the uninsured were young people with no chronic health issues, non-citizens, and people who were under faith-based alternatives to traditional insurance (like Medi-Share). Most of the people who paid taxes, including myself, did indeed get health care.
This World Health Organization graph says that 50.1% of Canadians' private expenditure on health care services was out of pocket in the year 2013.
I'm glad you asked:
Speaking of brown people, the countries your side often wants us to imitate have very few of them. Blacks in the U.S. constitute 12.6% of the population as of 2010, whereas in Canada they represent 2.5% of the population as of 2006, and 3.01% of the British population in 2011.
Actually, every citizen who walks into an emergency room with an illness by law has to be treated in the U.S. Of course, that doesn't mean that every citizen needs emergency room treatment, or that they don't have sufficient coverage to pay for non-emergency medical services, but the ER is there as a last resort for those who are destitute.
There's plenty about our country over which I'm not proud, too, and the Affordable Care Act and its authors are among the aspects of this country over which I'm almost embarrassed.
It was a lot less expensive for me before Obamacare. My premiums held steady at around $20 every two weeks, with around $1.50 for vision and around $6 for dental, then those amounts quintupled between 2009 and 2012, with most co-pays tripled on top of all that. Needless to say, my income rose much more modestly during that timeframe.
Not very many have, but there is anecdotal evidence that under 50,000 Canadians (well below 1% of its population) have sought treatment outside their nation that they felt they couldn't receive in a timely fashion in Canada. Perhaps the most high-profile among them is Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams, who in 2010 "traveled to the United States in February to undergo heart surgery. The 59-year-old millionaire is set to spend over three months in America recovering from the operation." His Wikipedia entry reports that the operation and recovery were successful, and that his decision to seek treatment outside of Canada wasn't to be regarded as a snubbing of the Canadian health care system.
I remember a teacher telling me that socialized medicine meant long lines and you hoped they could help you and somethings just were not options, while I was not sure what to believe when I visited the UK, Canada, Japan, I noticed that people quietly went to private docs or did without for many things, because you got what was available some was good, some was bad, some was a train wreck but mostly it was like playing Russian Roulette with your life. I had a buddy of mine have an emergency fixed in the US and simply pretended to have them fixed at home, and we both thought it was funny that she had to hide getting treatment elsewhere when there were no laws against it. Socialized medicine provides something for everyone but so does the US system where you get what you pay for... not sure why people can not pay for better service, and this is coming from someone who uses the VA who are doctors getting their start in this country. Sure some have been working for twenty to thirty years but once they retire their replacements are getting their start but will the stick around and help the vets once they learn their chops or just leave the vets to be crash test dummies... ? Seems everyone is paying for worse care and less docs... at a higher price.
D
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Repairing the human body is nowhere NEAR as straightforward as servicing/repairing a car.
In many cases, there are multiple possible treatments/procedures that can be done for various things. Each with their own attendant risks, contra-indications, benefits, etc.
Also, if you fuck up doing car care, you can usually repair it. It's just more expensive.
You fuck up medical or surgical procedures? Someone loses body parts, function, or possibly dies.
Here's the situation of Drugs, US and the World in analogy.
Microsoft say in the 90's makes Office and sells it in America for $500. It sells it on a CD which is less than $1 to stamp. Why-o-why does it cost $500. Because of all the software development, testing and certification behind that $1 CD. Just like a drug actual making the physical pill for a drug is cheap, the big bill is paying for the development, testing and certification of that drug and the 10 other failure that cost almost as much.
So just like the CD with the solftware cost more than the $1 to stamp the CD, a pill should cost more than the cost of making the pill.
Now go to a place like Canada where medicine is controlled with an iron fist. The goal saving money otherwise you waste money that could be used to buy votes.
Back to the analogy, so what Canada does is tell Microsoft. "You want to sell Office for $500". They say, "It only costs you to $1 to stamp a CD. Let the Americans pay for everything else, you can sell office for $10. You can't sell Office in Canada unless you do."
That's where the analogy splits. Microsoft just would just walk away and not sell.
The drug companies and the Canadian Government get in a staring contest, the drug companies wanting to share the full true cost on the exports and not just pack it all on the American market. The Canadians are more than willing to deprive their public of these drugs, regardless of how critical they are. When is became clear the Canadian government would let Canadians die than pay the real cost of the drug. The Drug companies blinked and consoled themselves they could make a few extra dollars by churning out a few more pills.
So all these wonderful countries with low cost drugs are why drugs cost so much in the US because the World leaches off Americans paying the research, testing, and certification cost for drugs. And heaven forbid, profit.
Now you do have douches like Martin Shkreli who take advantage of anti-market anti-competitive exclusivity rules that Obama and the Democrats enhanced and extended. Otherwise, their BS would be short lived.
Microsoft say in the 90's makes Office and sells it in America for $500. It sells it on a CD which is less than $1 to stamp. Why-o-why does it cost $500. Because of all the software development, testing and certification behind that $1 CD. Just like a drug actual making the physical pill for a drug is cheap, the big bill is paying for the development, testing and certification of that drug and the 10 other failure that cost almost as much.
So just like the CD with the solftware cost more than the $1 to stamp the CD, a pill should cost more than the cost of making the pill.
Now go to a place like Canada where medicine is controlled with an iron fist. The goal saving money otherwise you waste money that could be used to buy votes.
Back to the analogy, so what Canada does is tell Microsoft. "You want to sell Office for $500". They say, "It only costs you to $1 to stamp a CD. Let the Americans pay for everything else, you can sell office for $10. You can't sell Office in Canada unless you do."
That's where the analogy splits. Microsoft just would just walk away and not sell.
The drug companies and the Canadian Government get in a staring contest, the drug companies wanting to share the full true cost on the exports and not just pack it all on the American market. The Canadians are more than willing to deprive their public of these drugs, regardless of how critical they are. When is became clear the Canadian government would let Canadians die than pay the real cost of the drug. The Drug companies blinked and consoled themselves they could make a few extra dollars by churning out a few more pills.
So all these wonderful countries with low cost drugs are why drugs cost so much in the US because the World leaches off Americans paying the research, testing, and certification cost for drugs. And heaven forbid, profit.
Now you do have douches like Martin Shkreli who take advantage of anti-market anti-competitive exclusivity rules that Obama and the Democrats enhanced and extended. Otherwise, their BS would be short lived.
Couldn't have said it better. Americans foot the bill that most other counties of which you fawn over their "cheap Healthcare" for, built their system off of our research dollars.
It is pure socialism of using other people's money and hard work.
As far as mortality and "healthiness" of Americans. We have the best living and fattest "poor" segment in the world. Our poor people do not even know the meaning of the word. It has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with being lazy fat asses eating fast and processed food. Maybe give up some of the "things you have to sell" if you get sick and purchase health insurance each month like I do.
Yes, if you're dying of cancer, America is the place to be, but what good does MD Anderson do for someone with no insurance...especially if they don't live near Houston?
People live longer in those countries than in the U.S.
So you want more gun control, more funding for the homeless and significantly more money spent on drug rehab?
As someone who works in healthcare I can tell you that the 13.5 percent is a lower number now. However, only a few years ago it peaked around 18 percent of the population. As for non-citizens we actually can't count them because they aren't eligible. It's straight up illegal to sign up a non-citizen to the ACA. Also 40+ million people without health insurance is no small number. Furthermore that number does not even come close to the people who are under-insured. In addition to that a vast majority of those enrolling aren't QHP but Medicaid expansion.
Are you alerting us that we have more black people living here than most countries? Well thank you. Didn't know that.
This is actually the biggest myth of all time. They are not obligated to treat you. They are merely obligated to triage you in order to prevent immanent death. The level of care you receive varies drastically by state. If you walk into an emergency room with diabetes you do not walk out with a life time of insulin. They can provide quite a bit of services usually funded by state and federal grants and non-profit services but treatment under all circumstances isn't one of them.
i couldn't agree with that.
Many companies prior to and many still do have been reducing the benefit to the healthcare they provided. The price might have stayed the same but what they covered it most factually did not prior to the ACA or afterwards. The ACA wasn't really designed to hold prices as it was mainly designed to cover the uninsured and the under-insured.
Well considering they ranked 9th in life expectancy it appears that they are doing better. It's always easy to pick numbers here and there but it much easier to look at outcomes. So basically with Canada's "shitty" health care they ranked 9th and we come in at 34th.
needmorecarnitine
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i have been to a doctor one time in my adult life
D
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I'm 42 and I've been once for stitches, and even with those I just took them out myself instead of going back. I've never had a flu shot either. So many people in my life seem to live at the doctorhell, they seem to almost enjoy it. The cynic in me thinks it's just a way to get attention. Many people do come off as proud of their health issues, and will talk your damn ear off about it if you let them.
RPGWiZaRD
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#FeelTheBern
Sorry couldn't help it. He got my support all the way from Finland. The only good candidate this election that tackles the real issues in America.
Sorry couldn't help it.
He got my support all the way from Finland. The only good candidate this election that tackles the real issues in America.needmorecarnitine
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I went because I wanted to "get my money's worth" from paying for insurance. Just got a physical. Did get 2 fingers up the butt though (yes, it was a gurl dr)