Is Apple making an 'iPad Pro' with a stylus?

Snowdog said:
The same things the iPad has going for it over tablet competitors: Simplicity, Polish, Developers.
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For tablets sure. For a convertible device? I don't see anything with the iPad Pro that makes it any better of a laptop solution than existing convertible devices that indeed function as laptops with a full desktop OS, applications, etc.

Snowdog said:
You keep acting as if Microsofts model is the only way to do this.
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Maybe Apple has a better way to do it, but when Microsoft forced tablet and touch elements in Windows 8 that failed in large part because people were screaming about where did the desktop go? And by desktop I mean the desktop UI paradigm that's the same on laptops.

I'm not saying that it can't be done but I don't see how Apple wouldn't face similar issues no matter how elegant their solution would be if it totally removed the desktop UI paradigm.

Snowdog said:
How many Macbook owners do you see using a mouse? I have never seen even one.
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But they all have trackpads, something that's on available to iOS devices.

Snowdog said:
Also for a lightweight travel laptop, external monitor usage is all but irrelevant. Heck most of my friends who uses a laptop at home, never connects it to an external monitor. AFAIK iPads also have some limited external monitor capability for presentations.
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You can duplicate to an external monitor with iPads, I know people that use Netlix like that on their TVs. But you can't drive multiple monitors. I'm not saying that's critical for everyone using a laptop. But it's a pretty big deal for a primary work machine.

Snowdog said:
You keep harping on desktop software. Exactly what critical OSX desktop software do you think is missing from a potential iOS laptop?
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Development tools? Existing software that don't have iOS equivalents? Yes there's a version of Office for the iPad. Does it work with a standard printer? Marcos?

Snowdog said:
You seem incapable of thinking outside your Microsoft box, that says any device must be include everything and the kitchen sink. Often less is more.
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And often less is just that. What does the iPad Pro do to solve the primary issues that mobile OS tablets have had in the past becoming convertible laptop replacements? A keyboard cover with no track pad isn't exactly what I think laptop users are clamoring for.
 
CEpeep said:
Compare this to Windows where the vast majority of Windows apps are built by developers working directly on Windows. Windows developers can build apps for the tablet and phone and fully test them (including touch interaction) with a relatively inexpensive and widely available touchscreen laptop. Right now, I'm not sure how that user could be wooed into using and developing for iOS. Apple has a long way to go on this front, and Microsoft has a huge leg up in terms of implementation. I believe that eventually satisfying this type of user with iOS is an undercurrent that will become stronger with each iPad iteration from here on. The iPad Pro is a massive leap toward this goal, but doesn't cover a lot of ground in the big picture.
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Convertible hardware and software is extremely difficult. It's not a matter of living in Microsoft's box but because they have done far more work in these areas than anyone else you have to look at what they've done. And there's been a LOT of failures there and lessons to be learned.

If Windows 8 taught the world anything it was that trying to force a new UI paradigm on desktop folks isn't simple. Sure there were execution errors in 8 that Apple could easily improve on but how in the world do you get people to give up trackpads and replace that with touch? Indeed how many times have Apple folks said the idea of convergence is inherently flawed because a tablet and laptop/desktop had completely different usage patterns?

I completely believe in the idea of tablet/laptop/desktop convergence. And I think Windows 10 is showing the idea doesn't have to be a complete disaster and can work. But you can't totally eschew a proven concept that's been used for a close to a generation and replace it with something that offers less utility because "less is more". It has to offer something interesting and unique and can't be change for the sake of it.
 
heatlesssun said:
I'm not saying that it can't be done but I don't see how Apple wouldn't face similar issues no matter how elegant their solution would be if it totally removed the desktop UI paradigm.
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They aren't removing anything because iPads have never had a desktop UI. Microsoft pissed off so many people (me included) because they messed with the destkop UI on desktops. Apple will be maintaining a separate desktop line.

But they all have trackpads, something that's on available to iOS devices.
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People can use the touchscreen. Ideal? No. But this is version one of iPad with keyboard from Apple. Heck the first couple of versions of Surface Pro had a trackpad that was was so awful, people just used the touchscreen instead anyway:

I also find the trackpad nearly impossible to use. i just use the screen...


You can duplicate to an external monitor with iPads, I know people that use Netlix like that on their TVs. But you can't drive multiple monitors. I'm not saying that's critical for everyone using a laptop. But it's a pretty big deal for a primary work machine.

Development tools? Existing software that don't have iOS equivalents? Yes there's a version of Office for the iPad. Does it work with a standard printer? Marcos?
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I am not remotely suggesting it as a primary machine, thus things like dev tools are all but irrelevant. But as a lightweight travel laptop, a duty which many people are already using a current iPads with logitech keyboard cases, this new model will be MUCH more suited to that task, and it will only evolve from here.



What does the iPad Pro do to solve the primary issues that mobile OS tablets have had in the past becoming convertible laptop replacements? A keyboard cover with no track pad isn't exactly what I think laptop users are clamoring for.
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They don't have to convince the diehard Microsoft fans like you, that this is the best thing ever, to be a success. I see this more as a extremely lightweight touchscreen laptop for those interested in the Apple ecosystem.

In that context, what could an iOS laptop offer someone as an alternative to a low end Macbook?
Lower price
Lighter weight
Touchscreen
Lower heat/no fans
More Simplicity
 
Snowdog said:
They aren't removing anything because iPads have never had a desktop UI. Microsoft pissed off so many people (me included) because they messed with the destkop UI on desktops. Apple will be maintaining a separate desktop line.
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But if the idea is to replace a laptop then whether or not was in iOS it's been in the laptop experience. Forever.

Snowdog said:
People can use the touchscreen. Ideal? No. But this is version one of iPad with keyboard from Apple. Heck the first couple of versions of Surface Pro had a trackpad that was was so awful, people just used the touchscreen instead anyway:

I also find the trackpad nearly impossible to use. i just use the screen...
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One of the reasons I personally didn't buy the first two Surface Pros was because of the horrible trackpad. The SP3's trackpad isn't large but I find to be one of the better trackpads I've used on a PC. Sure, there are plenty of times I will just tap on the screen, but there's just no way that works fulltime with a desktop OS running desktop applications.

Snowdog said:
I am not remotely suggesting it as a primary machine, thus things like dev tools are all but irrelevant. But as a lightweight travel laptop, a duty which many people are already using a current iPads with logitech keyboard cases, this new model will be MUCH more suited to that task, and it will only evolve from here.
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Nearly $1k counting the keyboard is a bit pricey for a secondary machine that one plans to use often as a laptop that's not a laptop. But this scenario is reasonable.

Snowdog said:
They don't have to convince the diehard Microsoft fans like you, that this is the best thing ever, to be a success. I see this more as a extremely lightweight touchscreen laptop for those interested in the Apple ecosystem.

In that context, what could an iOS laptop offer someone as an alternative to a low end Macbook?
Lower price
Lighter weight
Touchscreen
Lower heat/no fans
More Simplicity
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Diehard Microsoft fan or not I asked a perfectly reasonable question. $1000 for that list might appeal to diehard Apple fans. But in the context of a convertible laptop there's just nothing there that's not already available outside of the Apple ecosystem for less money and capabilities that the iPad Pro doesn't have.

I get that you think that Apple will just swoop in and solve the convertible problem. Maybe they will. But not with this version of the iPad Pro. It's just all been done before with devices that are far better laptops. There's just not enough execution here beyond diehard Apple folks.

That's not at all to say that for what it is and for Apple was promoting at the launch that it's not a great device. I don't think that Apple even demoed the keyboard cover in the launch event. But there did the pen. Every Microsoft launch of the Surface Pro went to boring detail about the keyboard cover, how it snapped in to the device, how it supposedly worked well on a lap. The SP3 launch when into great detail about how they improved the trackpad.

At this time Apple isn't even trying to promote this as a laptop replacement. Something that be productive sure. Something that has a fantastic digital pen, obviously. But that never once said anything about the iPad Pro being a tablet that replace a laptop.
 
heatlesssun said:
But if the idea is to replace a laptop then whether or not was in iOS it's been in the laptop experience. Forever.
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The "laptop experience" is a portable device with a keyboard and a screen. That is the only "Forever".

You seem obsessed with the defining a laptop, as something with a MS Windows type Desktop OS (big surprise :rolleyes:). But that isn't a necessity. Never was. True laptops predate Windows. The future doesn't require laptops to have overlapping windowing desktop OS either. Your MS blinders give you narrow vision.

Diehard Microsoft fan or not I asked a perfectly reasonable question. $1000 for that list might appeal to diehard Apple fans. But in the context of a convertible laptop there's just nothing there that's not already available outside of the Apple ecosystem for less money and capabilities that the iPad Pro doesn't have.
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So you are back to the old "you can buy a Microsoft based system with more features/dollar" cliche.

Many with the features/dollar mindset, can't grasp that less features opens the door for greater elegance and simplicity. This is big part of the reason why understanding the success of Apple eludes so many. So no surprise it eludes the forums biggest Microsoft evangelist.
 
Terpfen said:
Spoilers: your gaming PC costs more than an OEM office workstation.
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And that is relevant why? My gaming PC can also do significantly more than an OEM office workstation, which is completely untrue of an ipad vs surface issue.
 
Snowdog said:
The "laptop experience" is a portable device with a keyboard and a screen. That is the only "Forever".

You seem obsessed with the defining a laptop, as something with a MS Windows type Desktop OS (big surprise :rolleyes:). But that isn't a necessity. Never was. True laptops predate Windows. The future doesn't require laptops to have overlapping windowing desktop OS either. Your MS blinders give you narrow vision.
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Pretty disingenuous considering that you left out trackpads, something the MacBook folks praise consistently as being tar superior to those found on PCs.

Snowdog said:
So you are back to the old "you can buy a Microsoft based system with more features/dollar" cliche.
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So anytime someone considers cost as a factor this is your argument?

Snowdog said:
Many with the features/dollar mindset, can't grasp that less features opens the door for greater elegance and simplicity. This is big part of the reason why understanding the success of Apple eludes so many. So no surprise it eludes the forums biggest Microsoft evangelist.
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LOL! You can say all of this nonsense you like of course. But during Apple's launch presentation did they once show the use of the keyboard cover on stage? They did however have three vendor demos, none involved the keyboard cover but all demoed the pen.

It's not about features per dollar but the right features. I get Apple's success. Getting people to pay top dolor for stuff. And I've made the point repeatedly that people will consistently pay top dollar for a device with a good digital pen experience. Your mindset for whatever reason can't see exactly what Apple did in plain sight the other day.
 
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heatlesssun said:
Pretty disingenuous considering that you left out trackpads, something the MacBook folks praise consistently as being tar superior to those found on PCs.
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No because is this section we were talking about the Desktop UI, which is software, and I have already previously addressed the trackpad. Nice misdirection attempt from your erroneous "Forever" claim.

So anytime someone considers cost as a factor this is your argument?
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Yes. The features/dollar argument is a shallow one. It neglects design cohesion, elegance, simplicity, Sticking the most stuff in the box is not the way to make great products. Most often it is actually the route to making bad products.


I get Apple's success. Getting people to pay top dolor for stuff.
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I haven't seen evidence that you do get it. How do think Apple gets them to pay more for less features?
 
Snowdog said:
I haven't seen evidence that you do get it. How do think Apple gets them to pay more for less features?
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Your accusations of me being some type of "can't see outside the Microsoft" evangelist simply aren't adding up on this subject.

I said in the OP of this thread that this is a group of people will spend good money on a large digital pen enabled device with the right experience. And they'll do it year after year. Loyal, repeat customers that spend good money. Pretty sure I'm getting Apple and every other company for that matter on this point.

Apple didn't even bother to live demo the keyboard cover yet did three of the pen. Indeed the demo of Microsoft Office, specially with Word and Excel with the pen and not the keyboard didn't make a lot of sense to me. Even someone like me that you claim is "obsessed with pens" uses Word and Excel almost all of the time with a keyboard, be it physical or onscreen or handwriting conversion to text, but 95%+ of the time it's with a physical keyboard. If Apple thought that keyboard so important it's interesting that they didn't show it live in at the launch event.

I'm not saying that people won't use the iPad Pro like touchscreen laptop. I'm sure some will. I don't think that's a group that's going to be as unconcerned with price and loyal as people that use it often with the pen. Considering the launch event, it would appear that Apple's thinking is inline with this.

And you may be right about Apple going with iOS with its convertible/hybrid approach and offering it as a lower cost laptop replacement solution to Macbooks. That's very reasonable. But there's a pretty mature and decent market of Windows convertible/hybrid devices now and all I was saying that I don't see iOS based devices, without significant changes, would have a much success with the people that buys those devices. Again a perfectly logical assumption.
 
Since you didn't answer the asked question, I guess my assumption that you don't get Apple, stands.

You instead chose to rant more about pen obsession. Your obsessions blind you. I remember you from when the iPad came out. I thought they were really onto something exciting, you lambasted it as useless. Instead were evangelizing some 8" HP tablet running Windows 7, that Steve Ballmer showed on stage as the real tablet to get. :rolleyes:

Windows 7 desktop OS, on a 8" screen touch tablet, and you were calling the iPad useless. I think you went on to be one of the few people on earth to buy that HP tablet, while iPad sold millions in it's first year.

Whatever Microsoft is doing, you are evangelizing it. No matter how little sense it makes. It makes your judgement questionable at best.
 
You keep talking about my obsession with digital pens but what the hell does that have to do with Apple creating an iPad with digital pen(cil) support? I've said numerous times that there people that will pay good money for this kind of device and that's why Apple added the pencil. Plain and simply common sense that you're turning into a lot of nonsense.

As for lambasting the as useless, these are the kinds of things I've said many times about it over the years:

Happy Birthday!

The iPad is certainly a seminal device and probably has changed computing forever, so much so that Microsoft looks to be going all in with a pretty radical design of Windows to compete with it.
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http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1038319214&postcount=9

The iPad is a great touch tablet (and now being digital pen enabled) that's great for entertainment and consumptive purposes. That doesn't mean it CAN'T do productive things. Something like a Surface Pro 3 is geared as traditional productivity device. It's not anywhere near as good as an iPad as entertainment tablet. I don't know many people that would argue with this. It's just common sense. I've recommend the iPad many times to people who just needed a web browser, access to social media, music, video, books, etc. I would never recommend a Surface device for this type of usage. For someone wanting more traditional laptop types of capability, the need to run desktop applications, etc. but also wanted something that work somewhat as a tablet, especially for things like drawing and pen note taking, then yes, I would recommend a Surface Pro more so than an iPad or Android tablet. I'll be very interested to see how well the iPad Pro works for those looking for drawing and pen note taking functions. If that looks solid I could begin to recommend the iPad Pro for these purposes.

Are you really that immune to common sense reasoning?
 
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Thats your post from 2012, when iPad was at the peak of it's success.

In 2010, you called it more useless than Pet Rock.
 
VladDracule said:
better multiwindow support when multiwindow support hasnt even officially launched? How do you figure that? Same old tired ill eat up anything apple puts out bullshit that every apple supporter has.
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Simple. Any iOS app developer who has implemented dynamic sizing support (which is a lot of them) automatically supports multi-window. That means that many apps will work properly with iOS 9's multi-window support from the start. With Samsung and others, you typically have to write vendor-specific multi-window compatibility into the app. In other words, iOS' multi-window support is more likely to find broad use, rather than support in a handful of 'blessed' apps.

Instead of relying on unsupported stereotypes and straw men for your arguments, it'd be great if you relied on facts and logic. I should have elaborated on my claims from the start, but you're going to need some ammunition in your gun before you fire back.


As far as the processor goes fine, its faster, but guess why that is? Its coming out 3 years later. Better tablet app ecosystem in what sense? For virtually every single app that people use on ipad will have a replacement on android aside from some highly specialized low use ones

Using the EXACT same concept/implementation as your competitors have been using for years, with newer specs because your late to the party, is not being innovative. I can't believe people who defend this type of thing actually exist
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"But apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" Those three years are pretty important, you know. And the original argument was that the Galaxy Note Pro 12.2 is the same device as the iPad Pro, which is inherently false. If you want to argue that they share the basic concept, sure, but phrasing is everything.

I'm not claiming that Apple is being innovative here -- it's not, this is clearly iterating on what the Note Pro and Surface Pro have done. It may just have the advantages of brand recognition, newer technology and a healthier app ecosystem.

Also, please provide proof that "virtually every single app" on an iPad has an Android equivalent, because history suggests that you're wrong. And these aren't the niche apps... these are major releases that many people use. It's fine to like Android tablets for many reasons (widgets, customizability, variety), but please don't make bogus claims to pretend that they're perfect.
 
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Snowdog said:
Thats your post from 2012, when iPad was at the peak of it's success.

In 2010, you called it more useless than Pet Rock.
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Since I've been recommending iPads since 2010 I hope I've not been telling people to spend $500 on a pet rock.
 
CEpeep said:
Touch and WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menus, Pointer) are mutually exclusive for Apple and represent different interaction paradigms. You haven't been paying very much attention if you thought Apple would make a touch-enabled device with a WIMP desktop. If a WIMP desktop is the only thing you consider a "full OS" then your view is far too narrow. Remember that the first 40 years of computing were done without WIMP. Surely you don't think WIMP will be dominant another 40 years?
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As I said I was interested in these style devices for a very specific purpose in digital art and I know it's a minority view point. There's certainly many digital artists that are geeked for the iPad Pro but I'm not one of them. Sorry for the coffee induced nerd rant, I just don't like the way mobile OS's currently are, especially the eco system. As I said it's my fault for hoping one day they'd make something that appeals to me. The art apps I've used for Android or iOS are very limited in the canvas size and how many layers one can use. Also since they're not really designed to be art devices like say a Cintiq or regular Wacom tablet it's much more of an uphill battle with interacting with the interface and the implementation of bluetooth styluses. The canvas size I like to use (6400 x 4600 usually, I plan to go bigger in the future) and some of the tools only found in the desktop version of Sketchbook pro (synthetic brushes) are impossible or not available in the mobile versions. Yeah sorry about dumb term "full desktop", I suppose you don't really need it since it's either desktop (Win, OSX, ubuntu, etc) or mobile (Android, iOS, Win, Palm, or Blackberry), more or less. Eventually the mobile stuff will catch up with the desktop, it's just not there yet IMO. Anyway devices with nice styluses that work well for digital artists are few an far between which is why I kind of had high hopes for it. I'm interested in what devices like the Surface Pro (1, 2, & 3), Cintiq Companion 1 & 2, or Toshiba Write 2 and I would be neat to see Apple compete but whatever it is what it is.
 
Terpfen said:
Relevant for purposes of highlighting a blind spot in your perception.
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except it doesnt, ironically you cut off my point of the fact that my gaming PC can do things a desktop OEM cant, which is DIRECTLY the point of the argument
 
Terpfen said:
Relevant for purposes of highlighting a blind spot in your perception.
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I admit that I'm not following your point on this one. Are you saying that because of its gaming capabilities (which are probably awesome for a tablet), that it justifies the price? Because he's right. With the iPad pro (128GB model)'s price, you may as well just step up to a Surface Pro.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
I admit that I'm not following your point on this one. Are you saying that because of its gaming capabilities (which are probably awesome for a tablet), that it justifies the price? Because he's right. With the iPad pro (128GB model)'s price, you may as well just step up to a Surface Pro.
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I'm saying that things that do more than other things inherently justify their higher prices.

The notion that the iPad Pro is less functional than the Surface, or that the iPad is less functional than any other given tablet, is lazy thinking from people who don't do a lot of it by the looks of their posts.

As for your point about stepping up to a Surface Pro, no, for the price of the iPad Pro you might as well step up to the MacBook Air. The Surface Pro is stuck in that no man's land between a laptop and a tablet, decent at both but compelling at neither, and can therefore be safely disregarded as a serious option. You're either in the market for a tablet at a below $800 price point, or in the market for a laptop at an above $800 price point, IMO.
 
Terpfen said:
The notion that the iPad Pro is less functional than the Surface, or that the iPad is less functional than any other given tablet, is lazy thinking from people who don't do a lot of it by the looks of their posts.
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Like anything the iPad Pro and Surface Pro have their strengths and weaknesses. I have no doubt that the iPad Pro is a better tablet give the tremendous app ecosystem that iOS has. As a laptop replacement, I think the Surface Pro would be the clear winner for exactly the same reason that the iPad Pro is a better tablet, the ecosystem.

Using touch centric apps on a device that's supposed to be a laptop replacement doesn't really work out any better than trying to run desktop centric apps on a device that's supposed to be a tablet. This is the reason to date why I think mobile OS tablets have failed to be as strong laptop replacements that many where thinking early on. Plus laptops themselves for years have been desktop replacements. One of the major accessories for the Surface Pro is the workstation dock. Docking with external monitors, wired networking and mice are have to's for many business class mobile devices.

Terpfen said:
The Surface Pro is stuck in that no man's land between a laptop and a tablet, decent at both but compelling at neither, and can therefore be safely disregarded as a serious option.
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Given the market reception of the Surface Pro 3, I think it's found it's place in that no man's land. I would agree that no single thing is compelling about it, it's very much the whole is greater than the sum of its parts effect. For a single device of it's quality to be able to do all that it does is why it's got a following. And if Microsoft continues to refine it like have I think it'll only become more popular. It's far from perfect, there are other machines that do similar things, there's even carbon copies of it coming out like the Mix 700. But it's arguably the best implementation overall of a hybrid device to date.
 
heatlesssun said:
Like anything the iPad Pro and Surface Pro have their strengths and weaknesses.
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The iPad has strengths and weaknesses. No doubt the iPad Pro will have strengths and weaknesses. The Surface Pro has weaknesses and less-weaknesses.

Using touch centric apps on a device that's supposed to be a laptop replacement doesn't really work out any better than trying to run desktop centric apps on a device that's supposed to be a tablet. This is the reason to date why I think mobile OS tablets have failed to be as strong laptop replacements that many where thinking early on.
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Generic mobile OS tablets have indeed failed to replace the laptop. The iPad, however, which is not in the category of generic mobile OS tablets, has succeeded at eliminating the netbook, which was its original goal per Steve Jobs. The iPad then grew into a replacement for low end desktops and laptops, because it was equally proficient at the same functions persons in those low end markets wanted.

Given the market reception of the Surface Pro 3, I think it's found it's place in that no man's land.
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Q3 Surface Pro 3 revenue was around $700 million, which is still less than the $900 million writeoff of the original Surface Pro. It's still in no man's land. I'd also like to point out that revenue is not profit, and I highly doubt Microsoft is making much profit on the Surface Pro line in general. But hey, investors are post-profit now: just look at Amazon.

On a more practical level, I see iPads in the wild all the time, while I have yet to see a single Surface Pro of any generation in the wild. This includes my work, where we distribute iPads for corporate use, but not Surface Pros.
 
Terpfen said:
The iPad has strengths and weaknesses. No doubt the iPad Pro will have strengths and weaknesses. The Surface Pro has weaknesses and less-weaknesses.
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LOL! For a device that weight 2.5 lbs. with the Type Cover, the Surface Pro 3 has far many strengths you obviously don't know of. As big of a Microsoft evangelist as I get called around here even I wasn't sold on the Surface Pro until the SP3. It's the finest convertible I've ever owned by miles. And I've owned close to two dozen over the years.

Terpfen said:
Generic mobile OS tablets have indeed failed to replace the laptop. The iPad, however, which is not in the category of generic mobile OS tablets, has succeeded at eliminating the netbook, which was its original goal per Steve Jobs. The iPad then grew into a replacement for low end desktops and laptops, because it was equally proficient at the same functions persons in those low end markets wanted.
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Would be so sure about the iPad in eliminating the netbook. There are a number of low cost Windows devices out there quite much a netbooks, this time around they are convertible tablet type devices though.

Terpfen said:
Q3 Surface Pro 3 revenue was around $700 million, which is still less than the $900 million writeoff of the original Surface Pro.
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That write off was specially for Surface RT devices, devices that Microsoft and no one else is making anymore. The non-Pro Surface 3 is now x86 Atom based. These kinds of devices are now the new netbooks. And there's a lot of people making Windows Atom tablets now, not just Microsoft.

Terpfen said:
It's still in no man's land. I'd also like to point out that revenue is not profit, and I highly doubt Microsoft is making much profit on the Surface Pro line in general. But hey, investors are post-profit now: just look at Amazon.
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I'm sure they aren't making tons of profit on it. But from the very beginning Microsoft said that they were looking to inspire OEMs to think outside the box. And there's no way around it, they have clearly inspired even Apple in the iPad Pro. There's no way Apple wasn't thinking about the SP3 and other devices when it developed the iPad, It's simply not possible.

Terpfen said:
On a more practical level, I see iPads in the wild all the time, while I have yet to see a single Surface Pro of any generation in the wild. This includes my work, where we distribute iPads for corporate use, but not Surface Pros.
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I've never claimed that the Surface Pro sells in large numbers. It's pretty expensive even by Apple standards. I paid $2k for mine with the keyboard which is well above what any iPad, even the iPad Pro costs. But be real, the iPad can't replace a laptop that needs to run desktop software, dock, run multiple monitors, etc. Sure an iPad can be a corporate device for people that don't have higher requirements.

Our corporate supplier, HP, can now sell Surface Pros. I know a people that are already trying to get them requisitioned. If you work in an environment with lots of Windows machines, and need development tools like mine, iPads are pretty pointless.
 
heatlesssun said:
Using touch centric apps on a device that's supposed to be a laptop replacement doesn't really work out any better than trying to run desktop centric apps on a device that's supposed to be a tablet.
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I'll court some controversy here.

I don't think a Desktop Centric UI is that great for small portable laptops either.

I find Windows UI something of pain using it on screens less than 15" without a mouse. It is desktop UI first and foremost, that people make do with on laptops.

I think overlapping windows that need micromanaging with resize and reposition controls, is ill suited to smaller screens. It isn't the optimal UI metaphor for smaller mobile, with or without keyboards.

So I consider a tablet UI migrating to laptops, as having the potential to equal, if not better than the current desktop centric UI running on most laptops.
 
One other point, Windows 10 for the first time yesterday tracked a higher daily number by itself that all of OS X on GS Stat Counter. Buy the end of this month, Windows 10 should have a higher market share than all of OS X and Linux combined. And I'll be the first to admit that NOTHING to with the quality or utility of OS X or Linux.

Before the tremendous success of Apple in mobile, Apple folks ALWAYS made this point. And it's 100% correct.
 
Snowdog said:
I'll court some controversy here.

I don't think a Desktop Centric UI is that great for small portable laptops either.

I find Windows UI something of pain using it on screens less than 15" without a mouse. It is desktop UI first and foremost, that people make do with on laptops.

I think overlapping windows that need micromanaging with resize and reposition controls, is ill suited to smaller screens. It isn't the optimal UI metaphor for smaller mobile, with or without keyboards.

So I consider a tablet UI migrating to laptops, as having the potential to equal, if not better than the current desktop centric UI running on most laptops.
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Neither Windows 8 nor 10 are entirely desktop centric, Windows 8 definitely so. The issue isn't the OS but touch centric apps which obviously Windows lacks compared to iOS. Windows 10 works pretty well on my Surface Pro 3 even on the desktop using touch. Full desktop Office 2016, Adobe Acrobat, Edge browser and modern apps even when windowed are as touch enabled as they would be full screen. Something like Visual Studio, nope. But I don't see anyone trying to use something like that on an iPad using only touch.
 
heatlesssun said:
One other point, Windows 10 for the first time yesterday tracked a higher daily number by itself that all of OS X on GS Stat Counter. Buy the end of this month, Windows 10 should have a higher market share than all of OS X and Linux combined. And I'll be the first to admit that NOTHING to with the quality or utility of OS X or Linux.

Before the tremendous success of Apple in mobile, Apple folks ALWAYS made this point. And it's 100% correct.
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What point?
 
Snowdog said:
I remember you saying that Windows 7 works well with touch...
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I said that touch could work pretty well on the desktop but that it wasn't touch optimized. There were a number of touch optimization in 7 that many people had no idea were there. For instance, one that's still in Windows 10, one can drag their finger through most drop down menus, many desktop apps never needed the scroll bars to scroll. Scaling could be set and standard control and font sizes increased in size.

Windows 10 adds a few more things like the new Start Menu which is still very well touch optimized even when it's not full screen. Modern apps in a window are typically as touch responsive in a window as full screen. In tablet mode we have that awesome innovation from iOS9 that actually was in Window 8.1 with split screening that was actually more capable in 8.1 with more than two apps split across the screen depending on screen resolution but went back to only two in 10 for some reason.
 
Snowdog said:
I remember you saying that Windows 7 works well with touch...
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I had an asus ep121 that was basically a surface when it was out, i used windows 7 on it with touch and stylus and it worked just fine. Fact is you just want to completely undermine anything by microsoft and windows, and its blatently obvious
 
Terpfen said:
I'm saying that things that do more than other things inherently justify their higher prices.

The notion that the iPad Pro is less functional than the Surface, or that the iPad is less functional than any other given tablet, is lazy thinking from people who don't do a lot of it by the looks of their posts.

As for your point about stepping up to a Surface Pro, no, for the price of the iPad Pro you might as well step up to the MacBook Air. The Surface Pro is stuck in that no man's land between a laptop and a tablet, decent at both but compelling at neither, and can therefore be safely disregarded as a serious option. You're either in the market for a tablet at a below $800 price point, or in the market for a laptop at an above $800 price point, IMO.
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Thank you for clarifying.
 
VladDracule said:
I had an asus ep121 that was basically a surface when it was out, i used windows 7 on it with touch and stylus and it worked just fine. Fact is you just want to completely undermine anything by microsoft and windows, and its blatently obvious
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It boils down to the software that one is trying to use. The Windows 7 shell itself was actually decent to use with touch with the right scaling. Office 2010 added some touch improvements. With Windows 10 using something like Office 2016, even the desktop version, I don't think would be radically different with touch on a Surface Pro 3 compared to the iPad Pro. In tablet mode for instance, the side by side is strikingly similar, at least on the surface, no pun intended.

Assuming Apple is going to serious about a tablet/laptop hybrid experience and they are going to use iOS as the base of such a device, I think they have a long way to go. Clearly the iPad Pro is a better pure tablet than something like an SP3. But I have no idea how one could claim that an iPad Pro with iOS 9 would be better as a laptop. Unless one radically redefines what the standard definition of the laptop experience is and all of the functionality those devices have, it just doesn't make sense.

Maybe Apple is going to try to redefine what the laptop experience is, or at least why the hybrid experience is.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
I admit that I'm not following your point on this one. Are you saying that because of its gaming capabilities (which are probably awesome for a tablet), that it justifies the price? Because he's right. With the iPad pro (128GB model)'s price, you may as well just step up to a Surface Pro.
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Terpfen said:
I'm saying that things that do more than other things inherently justify their higher prices.

The notion that the iPad Pro is less functional than the Surface, or that the iPad is less functional than any other given tablet, is lazy thinking from people who don't do a lot of it by the looks of their posts.

As for your point about stepping up to a Surface Pro, no, for the price of the iPad Pro you might as well step up to the MacBook Air. The Surface Pro is stuck in that no man's land between a laptop and a tablet, decent at both but compelling at neither, and can therefore be safely disregarded as a serious option. You're either in the market for a tablet at a below $800 price point, or in the market for a laptop at an above $800 price point, IMO.
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I don't really want to join the argument / discussion, but I'd just like to point out of many of Apple's fans, price point is pretty much irrelevant. If Apple builds it they will buy it. Which if course does not apply to the corporate market which may be a market segment that Apple is going after with the iPad Pro..

On a more personal note the main use for my iPad is as a consumption device in bed or around the house. I will most likely be picking up the iPad Pro because, hey, for watching movies, bigger screen is better screen right? And I'd much prefer a tablet to a laptop for this, the keyboard gets in the way for what mostly can be done with a touch interface.
 
elleana said:
I don't really want to join the argument / discussion, but I'd just like to point out of many of Apple's fans, price point is pretty much irrelevant. If Apple builds it they will buy it. Which if course does not apply to the corporate market which may be a market segment that Apple is going after with the iPad Pro..
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$799 for the 32 GB iPad Pro + $169 for the Smart Keyboard + $99 for the Pencil = $1067. I imagine that many won't buy the Pencil but the Smart Keyboard since it acts as both a keyboard, cover and stand is almost as necessary I'd say for the iPad Pro as the Type Cover is for the Surface. No, the keyboard isn't nearly as necessary compared to the Surface, but for a device this size, some sort of stand is along with the practical need and desire most probably would have to protect a $799 device.

Yes there'll be some Apple fans who will buy this even at this price but that's not the core audience. The people that will buy this kind of device, year after year, are professional artists and designers where the price really isn't a big deal because there is professional need.

As for the broader laptop replacement market, it will depend on the need. Does one need a big table or a small desktop? I don't think that a bigger mobile OS device that adds split screen brings enough to the table for those that need a laptop to work like a small desktop. For people that never needed those capabilities then an iPad Pro could serve the need. But at a pretty high cost compared to many other tablet/laptop hybrid devices. But I get that none of these are made by Apple.

elleana said:
On a more personal note the main use for my iPad is as a consumption device in bed or around the house. I will most likely be picking up the iPad Pro because, hey, for watching movies, bigger screen is better screen right? And I'd much prefer a tablet to a laptop for this, the keyboard gets in the way for what mostly can be done with a touch interface.
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I certainly get this as I use my Surface devices the same way. However in these cases the laptop keyboard becomes more a stand than a keyboard. So it gets in the way but also servers as an important function unless you prop up or constantly hold the device. The integrated stand on the Surface is pretty cool for solving this situation without the need for a keyboard when it isn't necessary.
 
I think ill get one. I like ibooks. And i only use everything portable as a media consumption/app device.

No typing or productivity whatsoever.
 
Ocean said:
I think ill get one. I like ibooks. And i only use everything portable as a media consumption/app device.

No typing or productivity whatsoever.
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Seems kind of overkill for just consumption. My consumption tablet has an 8.4" screen...
 
heatlesssun said:
The integrated stand on the Surface is pretty cool for solving this situation without the need for a keyboard when it isn't necessary.
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Great feature, that I doubt Apple will copy. I'd much rather have a kickstand than a Stylus.
 
Just wondering. Are they using the same aluminum they are using on iPhone 6S for iPad Pro? I didnt see that they mention that on their keynote.
 
Betauser said:
Just wondering. Are they using the same aluminum they are using on iPhone 6S for iPad Pro? I didnt see that they mention that on their keynote.
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no idea but thats one of the things i HATE about apple products. I worry taking my macbook pro out of my backpack because the zippers rub against whatever computer i have in their taking out and putting in. Awful material
 
The more I read about this device, I'm becoming more interested but damn that Keyboard is expensive lol. I'm guessing I will see more people in starbucks soon with this device instead of their macbook/air.
 
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