EVGA offering pre-binned service for Kingpin 980 Ti

Zuul said:
This is going to die off pretty soon when the Einsteins who bought the cards start posting their overclocks all over the net. Or maybe they'll just bury their shame and tears and never tell anyone they got raped.
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This, bias would be a big issue in this situation. Some of these fans are absolutely rabid about the company and hardware so it may be tough to get an objective comparison.
 
Da Fuck??

1318958334_son.jpg
 
I have nothing against charging for pre-binning.
I would consider to pay more for higher oc if it is guaranteed.

But paying more for higher ASIC when the correlation with oc has not been made is ridiculous. Seem like paying more for a fortune cookie in order to get a better message.
 
New review out for the Kingpin 980Ti. Thanks to a poster on Guru3d for the link

http://www.hardwareluxx.com/index.p...reviewed-evga-geforce-gtx-980-ti-kingpin.html

Straight from the Article and apparently from the mouth of KINGPIN---

"When it comes to the overclock, our 1550MHz clock is right in the middle as the pack. Speaking with KINGPIN, after having tested around 15 cards he received an average clock of 1550MHz. His best was 1592MHz while his worst was 1526MHz. Most cards seemed to do at least 1539MHz, though."
 
So in other words, even if you pay $400 extra for the 80+ ASIC bin, you're lucky if you squeeze out an additional 100MHz compared to a reference card.
 
n=1 said:
So in other words, even if you pay $400 extra for the 80+ ASIC bin, you're lucky if you squeeze out an additional 100MHz compared to a reference card.
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And little to no better than cards with non reference cooler or other MUCH cheaper non reference cards. Heck even I can do 1550 on my card so you could end up doing slightly worse on one of those $1049 Kingpin cards.
 
misterbobby said:
And little to no better than cards with non reference cooler or other MUCH cheaper non reference cards. Heck even I can do 1550 on my card so you could end up doing slightly worse on one of those $1049 Kingpin cards.
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Someone will pay...... Many people will pay.....
 
Especially since Kingpin posted on his forums that the higher the ASIC the better chance you had at setting a LN2 record.
 
VulcaN said:
Sold out in seconds.
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KickAssCop said:
Yup sold out.
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doz said:
Someone will pay...... Many people will pay.....
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And this is why pc gamers are fucked. Doesn't matter if everyone on this forum agreed this is a total waste of time and money and voted with their wallet, someone, somewhere will buy it because "gotta have the best" and "epeen".

(if you're buying this to actually have a go at LN2 benching then ok)
 
mls1995 said:
I'm kind of an EVGA fanboy and even I think this is beyond ridiculous.
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I was too until they tried to pull a fast one with borked ACX 2.0 cooler on the 970. Can't trust em after that. MSI only now, followed by Gigabyte.
 
n=1 said:
And this is why pc gamers are fucked. Doesn't matter if everyone on this forum agreed this is a total waste of time and money and voted with their wallet, someone, somewhere will buy it because "gotta have the best" and "epeen".

(if you're buying this to actually have a go at LN2 benching then ok)
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I don't understand your logic. The fact that we now have further choice/control over our purchase of an extreme halo card is some how negative for the PC gaming industry? People that want Kingpin cards are already willing to pay $200 over a "standard" 980 Ti - so why stop there? These are definitely a different kind of buyer and if EVGA wants to allow them to have more control over their extreme high end purchase - why not?
 
sk3tch said:
I don't understand your logic. The fact that we now have further choice/control over our purchase of an extreme halo card is some how negative for the PC gaming industry? People that want Kingpin cards are already willing to pay $200 over a "standard" 980 Ti - so why stop there? These are definitely a different kind of buyer and if EVGA wants to allow them to have more control over their extreme high end purchase - why not?
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I think this is a sweet spot for the KingPin version's. Boosting to 1550 on its own is insane. Match it up with 6GB of RAM and we finally have something decent to deal with in a single card solution. Now to wait until that price drops. :D
 
Island said:
New review out for the Kingpin 980Ti. Thanks to a poster on Guru3d for the link

http://www.hardwareluxx.com/index.p...reviewed-evga-geforce-gtx-980-ti-kingpin.html

Straight from the Article and apparently from the mouth of KINGPIN---

"When it comes to the overclock, our 1550MHz clock is right in the middle as the pack. Speaking with KINGPIN, after having tested around 15 cards he received an average clock of 1550MHz. His best was 1592MHz while his worst was 1526MHz. Most cards seemed to do at least 1539MHz, though."
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I haven't read the review yet, is that on air? To be fair KINGPIN has said if you are not going to use LN2 or at least subzero don't waste your money.
 
sk3tch said:
I don't understand your logic. The fact that we now have further choice/control over our purchase of an extreme halo card is some how negative for the PC gaming industry? People that want Kingpin cards are already willing to pay $200 over a "standard" 980 Ti - so why stop there? These are definitely a different kind of buyer and if EVGA wants to allow them to have more control over their extreme high end purchase - why not?
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Think what he means as others here feel as well, is that EVGA is just going after the "Cash Cow." The GPU/CPU lottery has always been a thing with enthusiasts and with more of us bringing up ASIC %, it's just a way for Companies like EVGA to add more money in their pockets, and jack up the price. I agree that competition in the market is a win/win for customers, because that drives technology, and usually price wars between manufacturers. But this...this is just lame...Soon they will be binning V-Ram and having different price levels based on Ram overclocking ability.
 
sk3tch said:
I don't understand your logic. The fact that we now have further choice/control over our purchase of an extreme halo card is some how negative for the PC gaming industry? People that want Kingpin cards are already willing to pay $200 over a "standard" 980 Ti - so why stop there? These are definitely a different kind of buyer and if EVGA wants to allow them to have more control over their extreme high end purchase - why not?
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Because this "choice" could very well come at the expense of a "normal" buyer.

KazeoHin said:
I guess it comes down to this question:

"What makes you think they have different piles of chips for reference designs over custom designs?"

They all start as Nvidia supplied unsoldered BGA chips on a tray, and if I'm not mistaken, the reference design is a standard to be adhered to, not a manufacturing sample from Nvidia: meaning that EVGA still builds the cards in their factories, even if they are of Nvidia's reference design. Why would you think they wouldn't test EVERY chip that goes through their system? if they are going to put an imaginary $300 premium on an ASIC score, trust me: they are going to look in every corner of their factory to find that gold. which means the lower-ASIC chips are all that remain for the 'normal' priced cards.
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ASIC isn't purely based on the chip. The board's components can affect voltage leakage as well.

eVGA has also said they don't bin based on chip, they bin based on the entire board. This is why they end up with all those Classified and KPE boards running at stock clocks that they sell for less later on. Here is an example of a 780 Ti Classified reject product.

With that said, this is bullcrap and I wouldn't purchase a product sold this way. Then again, I think product's branded with a single person's name are lame also -- I didn't like the Fatal1ty stuff. If all nVidia partners did this with every 980 Ti, I would buy a Fury X.
 
Island said:
Think what he means as others here feel as well, is that EVGA is just going after the "Cash Cow." The GPU/CPU lottery has always been a thing with enthusiasts and with more of us bringing up ASIC %, it's just a way for Companies like EVGA to add more money in their pockets, and jack up the price. I agree that competition in the market is a win/win for customers, because that drives technology, and usually price wars between manufacturers. But this...this is just lame...Soon they will be binning V-Ram and having different price levels based on Ram overclocking ability.
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n=1 said:
Because this "choice" could very well come at the expense of a "normal" buyer.
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I see. It's more of a slippery slope-type thing then. As in - where will it stop. I guess I'm not as worried about that. I think there will always be overclocking enthusiasts that like the luck of the draw and the challenge when it comes to getting the best bang for your buck. Paying $200+ more for a card is not the way to do so. So, right there - this product is differentiated from the rest. No OC enthusiast that is part of the bang/buck crowd (back to the Celeron 300A days, at least for me) is going to be out there buying a 980 Ti Kingpin or a TITAN X.
 
sk3tch said:
I see. It's more of a slippery slope-type thing then. As in - where will it stop. I guess I'm not as worried about that. I think there will always be overclocking enthusiasts that like the luck of the draw and the challenge when it comes to getting the best bang for your buck. Paying $200+ more for a card is not the way to do so. So, right there - this product is differentiated from the rest. No OC enthusiast that is part of the bang/buck crowd (back to the Celeron 300A days, at least for me) is going to be out there buying a 980 Ti Kingpin or a TITAN X.
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Very much the truth. Getting more than you paid for is the rush of OCing. If I wanted the fastest, I would just pay for the fastest. If I want to"beat" the system, I pay less and put the work in to make it faster. This is kinda like buying pussy I guess. :eek: Just an analogy! :cool:
 
Lol I had forgotten ASIC until now.. when 7970 came out, people were crowing about it too. Meanwhile, mine was an okay ASIC score, nothing special but easily maxes out 1.3GHz on the slider, with minimal vcore bump.. about as good as it gets on air, with the ref/BBA cooler, go figure.

I remember mention of the lower scoring cards being better for extreme cooling.

Therefore, ASIC seems to be a load of crud for majority of the users of these cards. But fools and their money are easily parted!

And this is why I buy reference BBA cards. No binning at that point. Better chance of getting a good clocker, before the manufacturers segregate the product lines via testing. E.g. you get the Wangforce XX3dGDVCRX TOPP OC EDITION GURU MAXX with the 100Mhz Core bump over ref. You know that with a few people are failing to achieve even that much of an OC, on the ref cards (sillicon lottery - yes I've lost before too!), therefore they'd have to speed bin cards, or at least test production stock, to make that model, or they'd be getting RMApocalypse...

That said, if the Koreans offered a premium (actually) perfect pixel screen, I would be in line for this. No or very low BLB, no black/dark/dust/light/stuck/whatever pixels. Instead of the 1-3 they have now for 'perfect pixel'. Dell has a great policy in this regard, any blemishes on their high end stuff and you can send it right back. Third time was the charm for me.
 
sk3tch said:
I see. It's more of a slippery slope-type thing then. As in - where will it stop.
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Pretty much.

Yes I'm probably just "fear mongering" here, but like I said earlier, business wise this is a brilliant move, and it clearly paid off big time. My thinking was, EVGA sees there's a huge demand for something as trivial as ASIC, so that might get them thinking what else they could bin and charge a premium for next.
 
What if we coat the traces in dielectric crisco to keep all the jiggavolts in
 
Rizen said:
If you pay extra for ASIC quality % you are a moron.
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This thought probably echo's what the majority of us are thinking.


I can't believe I almost held out for the KPE :rolleyes:

I was under the impression it would going to be a legitimate card launch - not a snake-oil covered money pit. There's simply 0 good reason to not just hold out for the G1 waterblock. Unless you're really eager to paying $200+ extra just for the chance to get a few higher FPS in some games. I guess if you're completely stuck on air cooling, KPE might be extra appealing, but I don't know any enthusiast who wouldn't rather just cool it with liquid.
 
t1337Dude said:
. I guess if you're completely stuck on air cooling, KPE might be extra appealing, but I don't know any enthusiast who wouldn't rather just cool it with liquid.
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Errr, the KPE was never meant to be air cooled in the first place, Its a LN2 meant card as Kingpin has stated over and over and over....
 
BlueSaber80 said:
Errr, the KPE was never meant to be air cooled in the first place, Its a LN2 meant card as Kingpin has stated over and over and over....
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It was never meant to be air-cooled - that's why they included an extra expensive air-cooler on it and are bragging about its clocking ability on air? ;)

I wasn't even aware LN2 was something common enough to base a whole product line around. I'd be really surprised if everyone buying these actually intends to use LN2...

Just seems silly, because for the price of the cheapest KPE, you can get any other card running on liquid.
 
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t1337Dude said:
It was never meant to be air-cooled - that's why they included an extra expensive air-cooler on it and are bragging about its clocking ability on air? ;)

I wasn't even aware LN2 was something common enough to base a whole product line around.
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Because they woudln't be able to market/sell it well with a naked card.

And read Kingpin post some time on the kingpin and classified

http://www.overclock.net/t/1565834/...-980ti-kinpin-cards-by-asic/140#post_24201543


Honestly speaking, I think most end users don't even realize how maxwell gpus are voltage capped at ambient type cooling. I can tell by many of the comments at OC.net, elsewhere, and also here in these card XOC bios threads. Especially compared to kepler. KP 780ti scaled great on voltage with air/water temps. Basically, more voltage = more clocks no matter what temperature.
With 980 and later gpus including titanX, the scaling on air/water has all but almost gone. I would say about 95% of all maxwell 980,titan-X, and 980ti gpus NO MATTER what vga brand pcb it is on, DO NOT SCALE with more voltage than 1.25v-1.275v at temps warmer than 25c or so. There is no magical bios that can effectively remove this.

This is exactly why almost every moderate-good asic titanX, 980, and yes 980ti clock around 1550mhz MAX AVERAGE at say 45-60C loading temps.
If you put 0c and colder on the card, you will see MUCH different behavior than what you see on air (green garbage all over screen when raising volts over 1.23-1.25vv or so)
Cards with very good ASIC value (75% and up) will tend to have the most "overclocking", but just like about every other maxwell gpu, they cannot overvolt past 1.23v-1.25v.
So highest asic cards like 80% +are almost always going to be the ones that can 1600+ on air/water, and again they do it pretty much WITHOUT overvolting over 1.23v-1.25v. Maxwell gpus with lower asic value like 65% will not be so great at air/water because these low asic gpus need voltage to scale compared to match the overclock of the high asic gpus( USING SAME USABLE VOLTAGE 1.23-1.25v)

The bios's I posted basically allow you to set a higher voltage on air/water. Some gpus can scale more, some cant, some actually will NEED more voltage than was previously needed to run same frequency. All different
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Based on the comments in the thread, maybe best its best to let you guys know(who don't already) a little bit about what ASIC is and how it relates to this card or any other card for that matter past or present.
I'll hang out here a bit and check back often to answer any questions by OC.net'rs about the card, ASIC, pricing, air performance, ln2 performance, ANYTHING smile.gif.
I would rather respond with the correct information directly to someone, than see that person repeating the wrong information. They haven't started selling just yet AFIK..
Ill answer some of the questions I've seen asked already to get a start.

ASIC is not a new "measurement" , its been around for a very long time. Only just recently is it available to be seen through public utility though(gpuz). It represents a few measurements on a GPU, not just one as many think. Basically it measures the performance ability of a gpu at a given voltage. There is another measurement of leakage as well. These two values represent "ASIC" as you guys know it.
Without talking about numbers or percentages yet, higher ASIC quality means a GPU will require less voltage to run at say default specs. What does this mean roughly? It means that this GPU is using less voltage and is generating less heat per clock than a lower ASIC counterpart. HOWEVER it also means the voltage limit of what it can take on air as well as the voltage response getting weaker/noisy. Here comes the leakage part. Highest ASIC gpus have also have the highest leakage, low ASIC gpus have lowest leakage. The two values scale linearly. This is why the lowest ASIC cards are the ones that can take loads of voltage on air, and the response is good. Usually these low asic cards can OUT OVERCLOCK their higher asic counterparts because they end up scaling higher on clocks maxed out with the benefit of the voltage increase that the high ASIC cards cannot. They are stuck on lower volts because the leakage is already very high.

How does ASIC relate to air overclocking? Typically a higher ASIC gpu will overclock nicely on default voltage/air cooling, yielding highest overclocks WITHOUT any voltage increase. Less voltage/less heat. Lower ASIC gpu will need to use more voltage for a given clock as the higher ASIC one. Back in the Kepler days, this meant great air/water overclocking on our 680's and 780's. I remember posting a thread at evga explaining to people that they needed to use 1.4v+ (at dmm) to max out their classified gpus on air. God I miss those days smile.gif. Back then, the best gpus on air/water were the low asic ones, they could always oc/ov the highest. Times have changed, and this doesn't apply to maxwell however.

How does ASIC relate to Maxwell Air overclocking? With maxwell gpus the above definitions of ASIC do not apply Well you guys know maxwell 980,980ti, titanx have ambient cooling voltage limit on what v's you can give it on air/water. That's just the way it is. Its been proven over and over on every single manuf brand 980,titanx, 980ti. kp980 owners as well, no different. These gpus don't like voltage on air over 1.22-1.23v usually max. Just green garbage all over the screen with more, no better clocks. Best clocks usually achieved with stock voltage or maybe slightly higher.
So given what we know about ASIC quality and the voltage scaling capability of 980,980ti,t-x on air/water(NONE), it indicates the best gpus on 980Ti, will be the ones that can overclock the highest on default voltage or near default voltage. Ever noticed why almost every single review of 980ti (any brand) is around 1500mhz? The reviewer never can never add much voltage for better OC result.
I'm mostly an Ln2 person, but some users complaining about 980kpe not overclocking on air prompted me to try and make a better bios for ambient that would allow voltage. I managed a slight improvement that works on some cards, that's about it. But I learned a lot about the scaling of Maxwell on Air during that time and how we could if anything improve on this with KP980TI.

How does ASIC relate to LN2 overclocking and more specifically kp980ti?
As explained above, higher asic = higher leakage. Leakage is actually a good thing and can be contained on LN2 cooling. Cards with more leakage will run a bit hotter, usually extending cold limits on gpus and getting more core MHZ on LN2. Every overclocker wants every last mhz right? Higher ASIC GPUS also have better memory controllers and typically can overclock the memory very high on LN2. Lower ASIC gpus usually are not so good at driving the memory on Ln2 and the overclocker will lose a lot of MHZ when going cold.
Lastly, every serious overclocker knows the highest ASIC gpus use the least amount of voltage for any given clock. This means these gpus will always have the highest potential for scaling to the absolute highest clock on LN2, because most 980ti gpus max out around the same voltage level on the high end max max ln2 as well. Wouldn't you want the most clock you could get for that voltage smile.gif. KP card pushes them all the way. Unless its a lemon gpu (cant test every single one on ln2 lol), it will max out on this card.

Does high ASIC guarantee highest clocks on air? NO. The other part of ASIC which is Leakage is high on these, so that can actually hold back some high asic gpus on air. This doesn't mean its bad on Ln2 as well, and usually the contrary. I Tested around 15 pieces or so of KP980Ti these days, all different asic levels. Some as high as 81% all the way to 64% (which we wont even sell smile.gif the average clocks on air were roughly 1550mhz Lowest was 1526mhz, highest was 1592mhz . Seemed like every card went to 1539mhz or so smile.gif Most of the higher asic cards did as expected and hit the upper 1550's. None could pass 1600mhz, but some came really close! Those were mostly higher ASIC%'s. You should know that every kp980ti is binned gpu and even the minimum ASIC level for any card is very high compared to average. A 70-72% asic card is a great card. Reviewers should be hitting low to mid 1500's on avg and some cards hitting close to 1600. If your an air/water guy and don't plan to run ln2, I think no matter what asic level of card you get, it will do mid-low 1500's and there is a chance on all kp 980Tis regardless of asic to hit the magic 1600. Still need some luck too, leakage can limit this. For the hardcore users or the ones that may run ln2, I would think more seriously about asic and the time/money you can save buy getting something closer to what you want. Being an Ln2 overclocker myself, I feel this buy is mostly for you.

Does ASIC % guarantee highest clocks on LN2? No it doesn't, it is only an indicator of what to expect. EVGA is giving the chance for customers to zero in on exactly on what you want. Some users will try many cards to find the highest asics for best LN2 overclocking, its not a new thing. The highest ASIC gpus will almost always be the best ones on LN2 as explained above. These are the users we mostly are targeting with this. The ones that end up buying and trying lots of cards to find the one gem, almost always a high ASIC card. They will end up spending much more than the price difference of kp980ti high asic and wasting lots of time in the process. This is geared for them.

Are we binning gpus away from other cards to make this one (classy or other)?. LOL I wish, but no way that's possible or anyone would even let me do that haha. For sure there will be guys on classys or other cards who find a high asic gpu here or there and im sure they will let us all know they paid XXXX lower than what someone paid for their KP and still got a high asic.
KP980ti is very special card in many ways hw wise. This is just one special added buying option for our more hardcore users on first few batches directly from us, that's all smile.gif

Anything I didn't cover or you want to know something specifically about the card, I'm happy to answer.
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BlueSaber80 said:
Because they woudln't be able to market/sell it well with a naked card.

And read Kingpin post some time on the kingpin and classified

http://www.overclock.net/t/1565834/...-980ti-kinpin-cards-by-asic/140#post_24201543
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Thanks, that was a very informative post.

So marketing a card in a way that would appeal most to its target audience (naked), means it wouldn't sell as well? That's the part I don't understand. Why would the card sell better by presenting a worse value? I don't understand the market very well.

It's nice of Kingpin to at least say that his card is targeted towards LN2. I was just under the impression Kingpin was trying to make this card looking appealing for other people as well (improved air cooler compared to other cards in the line-up, talking about air clocks, etc.)
 
t1337Dude said:
Thanks, that was a very informative post.

So marketing a card in a way that would appeal most to its target audience (naked), means it wouldn't sell as well? That's the part I don't understand. Why would the card sell better by presenting a worse value?
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Because trying to sell a card that doesn't work "out of the box" with no air cooling is business suicide. That would be basically like selling a car without the wheels. You can get BETTER cooling and tires for sure, but the physcology behind "not a working product" is a business 101 no no. Would you be pissed to buy a Ferrari and still have to buy tires afterwards? High end GPU with no air cooler is no different.
 
BlueSaber80 said:
Because trying to sell a card that doesn't work "out of the box" with no air cooling is business suicide. That would be basically like selling a car without the wheels. You can get BETTER cooling and tires for sure, but the physcology behind "not a working product" is a business 101 no no
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A better analogy is that they're marketing a car with extra expensive wheels to a niche car market that isn't interested in cars with wheels (because they have their own wheels to put on the cars).

You're not really giving an explanation why they wouldn't just throw an ACX cooler on there. Instead they custom-designed an air-cooler just for this card, no?

Just seems like an excuse to bloat the card price without actually giving it any extra real-world value.
 
t1337Dude said:
A better analogy is that they're marketing a car with extra expensive wheels to a car market that isn't interested in cars with wheels (because they have their own wheels).

You're not really giving an explanation why they wouldn't just throw an ACX cooler on there. Instead they custom-designed an air-cooler just for this card, no?

Just seems like an excuse to bloat the card price without actually giving it any real-world value.
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You your asking the wrong person/place. Go to Kingpins forum for an explanation. Its the same ACX 2.0+ cooler thats all copper vs aluminum is the only difference.
 
No doubt as Kingpin stated its a 5-6c drop with the all copper cooler. The question lies how long it will last until it starts to corrode in humid enviroments.
 
BlueSaber80 said:
You your asking the wrong person/place. Go to Kingpins forum for an explanation. Its the same ACX 2.0+ cooler thats all copper vs aluminum is the only difference.
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Sorry, not trying to hassle anyone, was just trying to wrap my mind around this card. If they weren't trying to impress anyone with it's air-cooling capability, they probably wouldn't have switched anything out for copper. All it really does is increase the cost of the card while providing no benefit for the people it's actually targeted to (LN2 users). Design decisions like these are what would steer me away from products like these in the first place, because it gives people like me the impression that they're just looking for excuses to make the card cost more.

But clearly I'm in the wrong camp (I'm not the target audience). I don't care to spend a lot of extra money for diminished returns. Well, obviously I'll spend some (I do have a GTX 980 Ti after all), but I think I hit my limit in that regard. I suppose I'm just curious about the people who will be buying this card with no intention using LN2.
 
t1337Dude said:
All it really does is increase the cost of the card while providing no benefit for the people it's actually targeted to (LN2 users). .
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Has the price been $200 difference from classi to Kinping in all the past 3 GPU series , starting from 700 series, though?

I think it has been fairly close to keeping that same gap throughout.
 
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