OLED Computer Monitors?

So we're seeing OLED screens in a lot of tablets these days, not just Samsung. (Like Dell's recent Venue 8). Ditto in mobile phones, like Microsoft's L930.

It's becomming more and more mainstream. Is it easier to blow up a small screen to a large one or a large one to a smaller one? (I'm thinking about the price drops we're seeing on OLED TVs and which will drive adoption more, that, or the profilieration of smaller-sized OLED screens).

Am I wrong to think that it'll be a bigger deal when OLED TVs are cheaper/have higher yield for computer monitors?
 
finrep said:
So we're seeing OLED screens in a lot of tablets these days, not just Samsung. (Like Dell's recent Venue 8). Ditto in mobile phones, like Microsoft's L930.

It's becomming more and more mainstream. Is it easier to blow up a small screen to a large one or a large one to a smaller one? (I'm thinking about the price drops we're seeing on OLED TVs and which will drive adoption more, that, or the profilieration of smaller-sized OLED screens).

Am I wrong to think that it'll be a bigger deal when OLED TVs are cheaper/have higher yield for computer monitors?
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Economies of scale. The monitor market follows the TV market. Once OLED TVs hit mass production and LG starts selling panels to other manufacturers we will see OLED monitors but I would guess that's still 3 years away. I'm planning on buying a 55inch 4k LG OLED TV this year while we wait for monitors. Not sure I see a downside to a giant 4k though. I like big displays.
 
Pastuch said:
Economies of scale. The monitor market follows the TV market. Once OLED TVs hit mass production and LG starts selling panels to other manufacturers we will see OLED monitors but I would guess that's still 3 years away. I'm planning on buying a 55inch 4k LG OLED TV this year while we wait for monitors. Not sure I see a downside to a giant 4k though. I like big displays.
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arent they still selling those for 5-11k ?

Honestly I am surprised the prices havent tanked yet. From what I understand OLED is difficult to get good yields on the panels and that is why they are so expensive, they are costly to make right now.

I agree 3 years or more at least. Eventually OLED will be 1200$ for a TV and monitors will be all over the place
 
Why do I get the feeling that they don't want OLED monitors to be released because there is so much more money to be made with LCD tech, just now they are releasing 120hz/144hz IPS screens.


When you think about it, if they release an OLED PC monitor today it would be the perfect display and you would not need to upgrade at all after that.


But like rest of the stuff today in the world, its all about money, world today would look a lot different if money wasn't the main focus.


And when they are ready to release OLED displays to the mass you have to wonder if panel makers are going to intentionally degrade OLED only to milk its customers to buy newer OLED monitors.
 
oleds use circular polarizers to reduce reflections from underneath the air-glass interface

still they're far less troublesome than lcds in that regard
 
finrep said:
It's becomming more and more mainstream. Is it easier to blow up a small screen to a large one or a large one to a smaller one?
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The small ones are LTPS and they won't economically go above tablet size. The big plants are IGZO and these can do any size economically.

finrep said:
(I'm thinking about the price drops we're seeing on OLED TVs and which will drive adoption more, that, or the profilieration of smaller-sized OLED screens).

Am I wrong to think that it'll be a bigger deal when OLED TVs are cheaper/have higher yield for computer monitors?
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If OLED becomes cheaper than LCD, then they will simply replace most of monitor LCD products. Another issue is the duty of monitors. As lifetime degrades exponentially with increasing applied current, monitor OLED modules have to operate at a brightness (current) that won't cause burn over a business lifetime. The more efficient this module is, the lifetime brightness level is greater.
 
TroyX said:
Why do I get the feeling that they don't want OLED monitors to be released because there is so much more money to be made with LCD tech, just now they are releasing 120hz/144hz IPS screens. When you think about it, if they release an OLED PC monitor today it would be the perfect display and you would not need to upgrade at all after that. But like rest of the stuff today in the world, its all about money, world today would look a lot different if money wasn't the main focus. And when they are ready to release OLED displays to the mass you have to wonder if panel makers are going to intentionally degrade OLED only to milk its customers to buy newer OLED monitors.
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If things would be such simple like in consipracy theories... Truth is that making OLED panels is technically extremely difficult. Only now LG claims they managed to make large OLED TV panels economically but the scale of manufacturing is still only 1 mln panels this year and price is at premium limiting it the very high-end market. So the good news is that finally it seems OLED becomes large scale manufacturable technology. But at best it is still several years before the manufacturing volumes will reach tens of millions of panels to compete with LCD in general market.
 
but what advantages does oled have for the "general market" where most people are happy using tn panels?

TDSlam720 said:
I've read of complaints of black crush on OLEDs which kind of sucks. Anyone with experience able to tell if it's better or worse than the black crush you get from looking mid center of a VA panel?
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that's not an intrinsic issue with oleds. it's related to the calibration and/or the standard to which it is calibrated. (e.g. a pure power law gamma curve/eotf will show black crush on any type of panel)
 
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I think black crush is unrelated to the oled technology. Atleast I've seen none on galaxy tab s viewing its demo photos, some had really detailed shadows. (and I've tried like 8 of tab's :D)

In fact there's a comparison somewhere, that shows that galaxy tab s actually does handle shadow detail better than an ips lcd (ipad iirc).

If there's a black crush then it's simply a screwed calibration, probably on purpose, just like 7-10k color temp on some tablets and phones, because in reality most people like their displays like this with bluish whites and colors that pop.
 
Pechendko said:
I think black crush is unrelated to the oled technology. Atleast I've seen none on galaxy tab s viewing its demo photos, some had really detailed shadows. (and I've tried like 8 of tab's :D)

In fact there's a comparison somewhere, that shows that galaxy tab s actually does handle shadow detail better than an ips lcd (ipad iirc).

If there's a black crush then it's simply a screwed calibration, probably on purpose, just like 7-10k color temp on some tablets and phones, because in reality most people like their displays like this with bluish whites and colors that pop.
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Eh, if you go on AVS Forum you can find people talking about the newer LG TVs having elements of black crush. Most of these guys are going to pretty savvy when it comes to calibration.
 
flod said:
but what advantages does oled have for the "general market" where most people are happy using tn panels?
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General does not mean here bottom-end of the market but higher segment where people care about details of monitor performance. OLED could theoretically compete in this segment having bit better black levels and color reproduction. Also, OLED has potential to become cheap if manufacturers will figure out how to produce panels by priniting (Samsung is furiously working on this). But at this point OLED is at the start of volume production and 4K OLED TVs are just introduced. This means OLED becomes real product which is good but still far away from real competition with the LCD.
 
TDSlam720 said:
Eh, if you go on AVS Forum you can find people talking about the newer LG TVs having elements of black crush. Most of these guys are going to pretty savvy when it comes to calibration.
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like this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...calibration-anomaly-newest-new-lg-oled-2.html

what i gathered from skimming through it is that their concerns aren't related to any limitations of oled technology but mostly the implementation of the calibration settings in lg's tv.

though i just checked on my galaxy s5 and black levels 1,2 are crushed. but 2-3 isn't a big jump so it's not a big problem

it could be that due to electronics limitations and the voltage/current response curve of oleds, it's difficult to precisely control a low but nonzero luminance level and so any tiny miscalibration would result in crushed blacks.
 
Phlorge said:
arent they still selling those for 5-11k ?

Honestly I am surprised the prices havent tanked yet. From what I understand OLED is difficult to get good yields on the panels and that is why they are so expensive, they are costly to make right now.

I agree 3 years or more at least. Eventually OLED will be 1200$ for a TV and monitors will be all over the place
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The 55 inch LG 1080P OLED (55EC9300) started 2014 at $5k and finished at around $2000 (Black Friday/Boxing Day). I expect the same prices or less this year because OLED production is four times what it was in 2013/2014. I can wait until Christmas.

3 Hours ago this was the price leak:
http://www.cnet.com/news/lgs-2015-4k-oleds-start-at-5k-according-to-retailer-leak/
 
Pastuch said:
The 55 inch LG 1080P OLED (55EC9300) started 2014 at $5k and finished at around $2000 (Black Friday/Boxing Day). I expect the same prices or less this year because OLED production is four times what it was in 2013/2014. I can wait until Christmas.

3 Hours ago this was the price leak:
http://www.cnet.com/news/lgs-2015-4k-oleds-start-at-5k-according-to-retailer-leak/
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Yes, although the $2K price was only on last year's 1080p OLED at Microcenter (In store only too). I've not seen the EC9300 lower than $2700 yet, but it may hit $2K by November.

Anyway, if the price follows the same pattern, hopefully we see the new 55" 4K model at $4000-3500 a month after debut. I'd be willing to buy it at around $3500.
 
dpoverlord said:
Yeah but no one wantswants 1080p we need 4k and low j out lag.
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That's untrue. The amount of horsepower required to run games maxed at 4k makes it too expensive for the general user and there is no 4k video material out to make use of, except for the few videos on youtube and around the web.

I'd pick a 1080p oled over a 4k oled any day, unless the 4k had gsync on it and wasn't exorbitantly expensive.
 
This thread is a mess, I read all pages and there is no info at all. Pretty much the entire thread is a troll fight between JeffDC and Hurin.They need to get a room.

Even after JeffDC was banned/gone, Hurin is still pushing , re-quoting and still instigating for a fight, after every each post. Hurin, we all understand you are in-love with OLED after your first post, for god sake stop it after 100 post about the same thing!

I love HardForum, but this thread is a pain to read. This should have been locked long time ago as flame-bait.
 
wye said:
This thread is a mess, I read all pages and there is no info at all. Pretty much the entire thread is a troll fight between JeffDC and Hurin.They need to get a room. Even after JeffDC was banned/gone, Hurin is still pushing , re-quoting and still instigating for a fight, after every each post. Hurin, we all understand you are in-love with OLED after your first post, for god sake stop it after 100 post about the same thing!
I love HardForum, but this thread is a pain to read. This should have been locked long time ago as flame-bait.
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What kind of info on OLED monitors you've been expecting??? The only real info is on OLED monitors by Sony but these are not for mere mortals.
 
Summary:

Small OLED panels are commercially viable because they're small. Small panels means less panels thrown away due to defects (which are a function of process scale and size of substrate)
Big OLED TV panels are only commercially viable now because of a switch to fabbing only white OLEDs (wOLED) and adding coloured filters over them. This cuts down on the number of process steps needed, again increasing the yield.
Desktop monitors are not yet commercially viable until either the small-OLED panel process (RGB organophosphors) can be scaled up with yield improvements, or wOLED can be scaled down without increasing the defect rate due to feature-size.

Desktop OLED monitors may be commercially viable at a higher price point (i.e. available sooner) if the very short pixel persistence times - and high refresh rates - possible can be leveraged at a premium price point. This depends on more people experiencing the benefits of LightBoost to grow the market for these sorts of monitors, and creating a demand for monitors with a higher refresh rate than is technically possible with TN panels (e.g. 240Hz and up).

Eizo leveraged lower-binned panels from their professional line to create a 120Hz pulsed-backlight *VA monitor. If a commercial market is created for low-persistance high-refresh-rate monitors (e.g. for mastering of HFR 3D films) then castoffs from these professional monitors may also end up as a limited consumer release.
 
Small OLED panels are commercially viable because they're small. Small panels means less panels thrown away due to defects (which are a function of process scale and size of substrate)
Big OLED TV panels are only commercially viable now because of a switch to fabbing only white OLEDs (wOLED) and adding coloured filters over them. This cuts down on the number of process steps needed, again increasing the yield.
Desktop monitors are not yet commercially viable until either the small-OLED panel process (RGB organophosphors) can be scaled up with yield improvements, or wOLED can be scaled down without increasing the defect rate due to feature-size.
 
feature size on a 1920x1080 24 inch monitor isn't that much smaller than on a 4k 55in tv

so i guess it's an issue of price. but still i'd imagine there's still some amount of people willing to drop $1000+ for a display... right?
 
ReaderX said:
or wOLED can be scaled down without increasing the defect rate due to feature-size.
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LG's current OLED TV with the highest pixel density is the 65" 65EC970V at 3840x2160, with a 67.78 PPI and 0.3747mm dot pitch.

That would produce a 32.5" 1080p monitor, or a 24" monitor at about 1400x790. LG can clearly not just cut down their existing panels and sell them as desktop monitors.

To get to the sorts of resolutions we'd expect even a basic monitor to provide, let alone the sorts of pixel densities that more recent panels can produce (and therefore a premium OLED panel would need to at the very least match), the wOLED process would need to be shrunk to significantly smaller feature sizes. Smaller feature sizes mean that a defect that previously would only cause a subpixel to dim slightly, or maybe fall between two elements and have no effect at all, will now render one or more subpixels inoperable. Worse, desktop panels are expected to have a much lower pixel defect rate to start with (you can quite easily lose a handful of subpixels in a TV panels and never notice, mostly due to chroma subsampling spreading the load between pixels anyway).
It also means retooling an entire fab line to produce desktop panels, which is a massive investment to make without it being clear that there is a large market for super-premium monitors. Look at the current cost of Sony's OLED monitors. That's only partially the 'professional' price-premium, and mostly that the startup costs for short runs are so high.
 
EdZ said:
It also means retooling an entire fab line to produce desktop panels, which is a massive investment to make without it being clea
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Retool what? Just swap the masks and you can make whatever dimensions you want.
 
I would love a good OLED monitor. I was in awe last night at best buy looking at the $4k Sony 55" 1080p panel. It was beautiful. Those blacks! But I think we are at least 2-3 years before they are even somewhat reasonably priced OLED monitors.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
Retool what? Just swap the masks and you can make whatever dimensions you want.
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- Swap masks (assuming illumination can handle the smaller process)
- Swap slicing (not too bad)
- Swap validation (because you have a whole new process scale)
- Revalidate entire process timings and temperature (because all your features are a lot smaller)

The same reasons that 'just swap from 20nm to 14nm, you just swap the masks' doesn't work.
 
wye said:
Even after JeffDC was banned/gone, Hurin is still pushing , re-quoting and still instigating for a fight, after every each post.
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Don't know what thread you're reading, but I haven't posted for two months.

Not sure what you're hoping to accomplish by bringing this up two months after it all died down. But something tells me your motives aren't as benign as you'd like us to believe.

But thanks for popping in just to stir the shit unnecessarily long after it had settled.
 
I want a 4k that has low input lag and can replace a surround 1600p /4k setup done have word if anything coming up can do this.
 
Kreon said:
So did you get it?
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Yes. I'm very happy with the purchase, the PQ is incredible and blows away any other display I've seen. Took a pic here: http://i.picpar.com/Pdrb.png

Haven't had any issues with IR or burn-in while gaming either. Personally, I'd rather game on this at 1080p over any 4K LCD. The contrast improvement just really outweighs any increased sharpness you get from 4K, for me at least...

The 4K OLEDs are out now but I couldn't bring myself to pay more than double for the resolution increase. My guess is, it will be a year or two before they hit this price.
 
x3sphere said:
Yes. I'm very happy with the purchase, the PQ is incredible and blows away any other display I've seen. Took a pic here: http://i.picpar.com/Pdrb.png

Haven't had any issues with IR or burn-in while gaming either. Personally, I'd rather game on this at 1080p over any 4K LCD. The contrast improvement just really outweighs any increased sharpness you get from 4K, for me at least...

The 4K OLEDs are out now but I couldn't bring myself to pay more than double for the resolution increase. My guess is, it will be a year or two before they hit this price.
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I saw this TV at Best Buy and it blew my mind how beautiful the picture and the overall TV was. I'm not looking back anymore.
 
I guess about 5 years until affordable OLED monitors and affordable 4k OLED TV's !

Will be great when LCD is a thing of the past and we can all have infinite contrast OLED screens!

If LG can make a 55" 1080p OLED TV and sell it for £2000, why can't they make a 24" 1080p oled monitor?
 
Nicholars said:
If LG can make a 55" 1080p OLED TV and sell it for £2000, why can't they make a 24" 1080p oled monitor?
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First, manufacturing capacity of OLED is limited, several hundred thousands panels in 2015. Second, LG targets high-end big TVs which can command higher prices. Third, there still might be some concerns about OLED viability as monitor, there white level limitations in OLED and usage model is such that some people consider normal leaving monitor on with static image for very long time.
 
wirk said:
First, manufacturing capacity of OLED is limited, several hundred thousands panels in 2015. Second, LG targets high-end big TVs which can command higher prices. Third, there still might be some concerns about OLED viability as monitor, there white level limitations in OLED and usage model is such that some people consider normal leaving monitor on with static image for very long time.
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Don't know about OLED being suitable for monitors but there is a Sony professional OLED monitor already produced, if LG charge £2000 for a 55" 1080p then they would surely make a good profit from a small monitor priced around £700.. and loads of people would buy an OLED monitor at that price. Maybe they are waiting until they can produce OLED monitors at lower prices.

Just thinking about a 27" 1440p strobing OLED screen gives a me a semi...
 
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Not interested in any of these until there's a version with G-Sync or something equivalent.

Tearing and vsync lag are just as unacceptable as motion blur and shitty contrast.
 
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