Project H20-Micro a Watercooled 3 Liter system with GTX970

CknSalad said:
The FC8 method limits QinX to 65W tdp cpus. According to silentpcreview, the i5 3470S ran at 82C in prime95 after just five minutes. Also, it might be hard to install this with a gpu as well.
Click to expand...

I don't think WiSK was talking about the CPU cooling, that will be done with water, still. We've had a small discussion about secondary heat sources and how they will be cooled.
 
CknSalad said:
The FC8 method limits QinX to 65W tdp cpus. According to silentpcreview, the i5 3470S ran at 82C in prime95 after just five minutes. Also, it might be hard to install this with a gpu as well.
Click to expand...

Passive cooling will be impossible in this form factor with a total heatload of +-240W.
I can improve cooling on the VRM by sticking some simple heatsink to them, the same you also see on GPU RAM a couple years back
memory_heatsinks.jpg


Else this review of the FC8 shows that the PCH is toasty but in no way overheating: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1333-page5.html
 
If there's some headroom in the radiator, shifting the fans slightly could allow for some bleed air to be ducted through the GPU/Mobo sandwich for cooling for components. Even a small amount of forced airflow would be better than relying on convection.
 
iFreilicht said:
I don't think WiSK was talking about the CPU cooling, that will be done with water, still.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I was trying to suggest that in a case with tightly packed components, an alternative to forced or natural convection is to move the heat by phase change. From a hot place (VRM, etc) to a less hot place (case frame).

Obviously heatpipes aren't totally bendy, some planning will be needed to buy the right ones. And some careful working to make them the right shape. And some good temperature measurements to identify the places that actually need it.

Just thought I'd throw it in as an idea :D
 
Well I had myself a small problem, how do you test a PCIe riser that can only be folded over a Thin M-ITX motherboard?

Luckily on another forum a member (l3p) was interested in my riser, upon asking why he was interested he answered "Ik dacht dat hij wel handig kon zijn als je een GPU plat op een E-ATX bord wilt leggen. (Dus bovenop de andere PCI-e slots"

Wait what?
Let me Englishify that: "I thought it could be useful for folding a GPU flat over an E-ATX motherboard. (On top of the other PCI-e slots)".

Gotta love when other people turn on the lights in your head. I had an Maximus IV Extreme laying around but no CPU for it. quickly got myself a used Pentium G860 to test with.

*fingers crossed*



It works!
the slot it is running in is only 4x 2.0 so fps aren't great, but at least it works!

Here it is all soldered up.



Also, why would l3p want to fold the GPU over the motherboard? Well you can slim down you build and show of a waterblock.

He did something similar before but at a 135 degree angle and with a flex riser
27%20%5b550xl3p%5d.JPG
 
Haha I bid on l3p's parvum when he offered it on tweakers. He retracted the sale at the last minute. I did manage to buy k.3nny's parvum though, but I haven't built in it yet.
 
I've finished up the GPU waterblock


Now on to the finishing touches and doing a sanity check of everything.
 
Hey guys,

Just a quick question I am curious about. What kind of finish would you like to see on the case?
A. Normal Black Anodized Aluminum
B. Brushed Black Anodized Aluminum
C. Black Powder Coating
 
I personally love the looks of brushed aluminium and I think that would look good on your case.
 
Brushed aluminum personally, but powder-coat would be cool. I just want to see the final product and see how well it performs. :)
 
Just a small update as it has been rather quiet now.

I’ve ordered the waterblocks and reservoir from my supplier, they should be getting milled come Monday, so with a bit of luck I’ll have them in my hands before the end of next week.

I’m also close to ordering the case itself from another supplier. Because of pricing I will be getting 2 Horizontal cases and 2 Vertical cases.
1 Horizontal and 1 Vertical case will be sand-blasted and then anodized either black of “space grey”
The other 2 will be powder coated black, matte and with a structured finish.

The only thing I need to order now are the O-rings for the blocks and the interconnects.
 
rawrr said:
4? You planning on selling a few as early prototypes? :p
Click to expand...

1 or 4 was pretty much the same price, so why not 4 :p
I have only the parts for 1 whole system first, and I could make 3 more if people really want one.
 
QinX said:
1 or 4 was pretty much the same price, so why not 4 :p
I have only the parts for 1 whole system first, and I could make 3 more if people really want one.
Click to expand...

I'd love one, but it'll probably be like $2000 for just the custom parts won't it :p
 
It's not that bad actually, if I could run a batch of 5 to 10 sets.I could get it down to a reasonable price.

This single system I'm building now is hitting just over €1500 in custom parts, but it's mostly one time fees for setup. Might be able to get it down to €500 for a kit version(radiator, gpu block, cpu block, reservoir and case) considering a normal combination would run you around the €350 or more. the extra price shouldn't be that hard to overcome.
 
I could see myself getting a kit then... Albeit in the future. Still, my interest remains. :D
 
I kinda made a mistake :(

The fitting that goes on the reservoir is not going to fit.

Now I have to hope I can find someone to lathe a lot of material of the fitting and hope the fitting doesn't mind being über skinny

 
This is awesome. I'm very curious to sea how it turns out. Always thoughts that flipping the gfx over the mainboard has great potential. Though if possible, I'd try and add the chipset into the cooling loop, and paste the dc-board with thermal pad directly onto the case. If the metal is thick enough, it's good enough to dissipate it's heat.
 
Here's a nice update:

The blocks have been made and are on their way now!

The copper is fairly scratched judging from the pictures, but nothing a bit of spit and polish won't fix ;)
They should arrive early this week and I will be taking some better pictures of them so stay tuned!





Really looking forward to trying them out!


qwerkus said:
This is awesome. I'm very curious to sea how it turns out. Always thoughts that flipping the gfx over the mainboard has great potential. Though if possible, I'd try and add the chipset into the cooling loop, and paste the dc-board with thermal pad directly onto the case. If the metal is thick enough, it's good enough to dissipate it's heat.
Click to expand...

the Q87 chipset has a TDP of 4.1W so in terms of needing cooling it's not really needed. The DC board should handle up to 250W passive and it will only handle 150W because of the GPU, I'd rather design my own custom board that is just plain 12V with low ripple.
 
rawrr said:
Wow. I look forward to the tubing!
Click to expand...

Sorry to disappoint you but in terms of tubing this is all that will be in the system :p

Total tubing length: 1x 56mm and 1x 96mm
Tubing Size: 6mm OD/4mm ID
 
I think this project is amazing, a real work of art and an engineering marvel. I'm dying to see what the finished build will look like.

I really want to try building something like this myself, but theres no way I could afford custom parts. I was thinking about your design and was trying to figure out a way to use existing parts to achieve a similar volume. Here's what I came up with:

- Instead of using a thin m-itx board with limited pci-e, I could go for a full itx motherboard with short io ports, then desolder the audio jacks and replace the audio out with a smaller jack, or leave it out altogether. Or I could use a dremel to cut off the top half.


- I can mod the EK supremacy cpu-block top and replace it with my own cnc'd top, combining the gpu terminal and cpu inlets into one acrylic top. It shouldn't be too hard. 2 pieces of acrylic carefully hand drilled, or with a cnc:


Then remove the ek gpu inlet terminal and secure it to the new cpu-block top.



Screw the acrylic top onto the supremacy evo. I forgot to leave gaps in the corners for the thumb screws :rolleyes: Or you could use long threads with nuts at the back of the motherboard - which would be easier if the gpu is connected via riser card.

Then screw the gpu inlet terminal back in,


Then screw the 90 degree fittings, and voila:




I'm using an asrock h81m-itx as it's got nothing in the way of the acrylic mod, making it perfect.
Add in a slim 120mm rad with slim silverstone fan, small pump, no reservoir, this thing clocks in at 290x180x50mm ~ 2.6L and all using stock parts. This is the poor mans version of QinX's premium build.
 
Very cool idea, I like it! Not sure how well the desoldering of the audio ports will go, but other than that, this should all be possible.
 
I've done this as a mock buildup before with an EK Supremacy and 970 and it works perfectly with a 59mm riser card from Star Empery. Don't think you'd need to go with a custom water block unless you're really concerned about minimizing height by a couple extra mm. Also there are much shorter CPU blocks on the market than the EK.
 
fusionxr said:
I think this project is amazing, a real work of art and an engineering marvel. I'm dying to see what the finished build will look like.

I really want to try building something like this myself, but theres no way I could afford custom parts. I was thinking about your design and was trying to figure out a way to use existing parts to achieve a similar volume. Here's what I came up with:

- Instead of using a thin m-itx board with limited pci-e, I could go for a full itx motherboard with short io ports, then desolder the audio jacks and replace the audio out with a smaller jack, or leave it out altogether. Or I could use a dremel to cut off the top half.


- I can mod the EK supremacy cpu-block top and replace it with my own cnc'd top, combining the gpu terminal and cpu inlets into one acrylic top. It shouldn't be too hard. 2 pieces of acrylic carefully hand drilled, or with a cnc:


Then remove the ek gpu inlet terminal and secure it to the new cpu-block top.



Screw the acrylic top onto the supremacy evo. I forgot to leave gaps in the corners for the thumb screws :rolleyes: Or you could use long threads with nuts at the back of the motherboard - which would be easier if the gpu is connected via riser card.

Then screw the gpu inlet terminal back in,


Then screw the 90 degree fittings, and voila:




I'm using an asrock h81m-itx as it's got nothing in the way of the acrylic mod, making it perfect.
Add in a slim 120mm rad with slim silverstone fan, small pump, no reservoir, this thing clocks in at 290x180x50mm ~ 2.6L and all using stock parts. This is the poor mans version of QinX's premium build.
Click to expand...

Very nice concept, it's nice to see other people throwing in their ideas.

Here are some remarks you might not have thought of:
1. Power Supply, you will need a decent 300W+ capable DC board and space to connect the cables to it, in this case including the 24Pin and 4Pin
2. Storage, this board doesn't have a M.1 or mSATA slot for onboard storage. You will have to squeeze in an SSD somewhere and then have 2 cables going to it.

I've thought about doing it this way, but the reason I shied away from it is:
1. Soldering voids the warranty, also desoldering many pins for 1 connector that has lead-free solder is a PITA^100.
2. The need for a 24pin and 4/8Pin cable makes cable management really difficult, you will need extra space for it.
3. If you go with a Thin M-ITX board the CPU socket location is always the same, because of they way the cooling in an AIO has to be optimized the location of the CPU must stay the same. Meaning upgrading the CPU and motherboard in the future should be possible without changing the block, if intel can keep the Hole spacing the same like the have been doing lately :)

Don't get me wrong it's really nice to see people trying different takes on this idea, but please do not underestimate the small details that need to be worked out to get it to fit.
It is easy to say, let me add 1mm more here and there, but that is not challenging :p
The Radiator I use is 28.6mm thick. and has 30-FPI.
The fans are 15mm thick making the total internal height of the case 43.6mm

If you go with something like a Koolance HX-CU420V
This radiator is 28.6mm thick and also has 30-FPI
However the G1/4" fitting sticks out 3.1mm beyond the fan bracket. So with the smallest 120mm fan I know (Scythe Slip Stream Slim) coming in at only 12mm you would have only 8.9mm of rooms for the fitting.
The smallest G1/4 90 degree fitting I have here is a Bitspower C39. It is 18mm high, but more importantly it isn't a ROTARY coupling. so you can't position the way it is pointing, that can be a major problem.

So you have 28.6mm+3.1mm+18mm = 49.7mm
But you then how thick should the fans be? 49.7-28.6=21.1mm those don't exist so you have 3 options:
1. Find a smaller fitting to get within 20mm
2. Get the next thickness in fans, 25mm so total internal height would be 28.6+25=53.6mm
3. Make a shroud that fills in the 1.1mm gap, in this case a rubber vibration damper would be a good option.

This is one of the details that need to be worked out in order to get it to fit all together.

Once you see the build coming together, which should be very soon you can notice that almost no space has been wasted.
I have 2 pockets or air that are 0.1Liter that are annoying me :p

The changes I already have in mind should solve that surplus of air.

Also one more thing:
DDR3 VLP is 18.8mm heigh, including the DDR3 slot itself adding 2.5mm and some extra clearance from the screws on the GPU, the space between the motherboard PCB and GPU PCB should be 25mm at least I think.
 
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QinX said:
Very nice concept, it's nice to see other people throwing in their ideas.

Here are some remarks you might not have thought of:
1. Power Supply, you will need a decent 300W+ capable DC board and space to connect the cables to it, in this case including the 24Pin and 4Pin
2. Storage, this board doesn't have a M.1 or mSATA slot for onboard storage. You will have to squeeze in an SSD somewhere and then have 2 cables going to it.

I've thought about doing it this way, but the reason I shied away from it is:
1. Soldering voids the warranty, also desoldering many pins for 1 connector that has lead-free solder is a PITA^100.
2. The need for a 24pin and 4/8Pin cable makes cable management really difficult, you will need extra space for it.
3. If you go with a Thin M-ITX board the CPU socket location is always the same, because of they way the cooling in an AIO has to be optimized the location of the CPU must stay the same. Meaning upgrading the CPU and motherboard in the future should be possible without changing the block, if intel can keep the Hole spacing the same like the have been doing lately :)

Don't get me wrong it's really nice to see people trying different takes on this idea, but please do not underestimate the small details that need to be worked out to get it to fit.
It is easy to say, let me add 1mm more here and there, but that is not challenging :p
The Radiator I use is 28.6mm thick. and has 30-FPI.
The fans are 15mm thick making the total internal height of the case 43.6mm

If you go with something like a Koolance HX-CU420V
This radiator is 28.6mm thick and also has 30-FPI
However the G1/4" fitting sticks out 3.1mm beyond the fan bracket. So with the smallest 120mm fan I know (Scythe Slip Stream Slim) coming in at only 12mm you would have only 8.9mm of rooms for the fitting.
The smallest G1/4 90 degree fitting I have here is a Bitspower C39. It is 18mm high, but more importantly it isn't a ROTARY coupling. so you can't position the way it is pointing, that can be a major problem.

So you have 28.6mm+3.1mm+18mm = 49.7mm
But you then how thick should the fans be? 49.7-28.6=21.1mm those don't exist so you have 3 options:
1. Find a smaller fitting to get within 20mm
2. Get the next thickness in fans, 25mm so total internal height would be 28.6+25=53.6mm
3. Make a shroud that fills in the 1.1mm gap, in this case a rubber vibration damper would be a good option.

This is one of the details that need to be worked out in order to get it to fit all together.

Once you see the build coming together, which should be very soon you can notice that almost no space has been wasted.
I have 2 pockets or air that are 0.1Liter that are annoying me :p

The changes I already have in mind should solve that surplus of air.

Also one more thing:
DDR3 VLP is 18.8mm heigh, including the DDR3 slot itself adding 2.5mm and some extra clearance from the screws on the GPU, the space between the motherboard PCB and GPU PCB should be 25mm at least I think.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, the small details are the hardest, but thats why sharing ideas lets us solve these problems better. More brains are always better than 1 :D

1. I was thinking about using the hdplex-250w

2. I can make custom 24pin and 4pin cables cut to size and shave off some height off the 24pin connector by bending the cable pins at angles.

2. The asrock z97e ac has an m.2 slot. I just noticed the one in my model is actually the z97e ac, not h81m-itx. :rolleyes: With this board theres a 43mm m.2 ssd port on the bottom, limiting you to 256gb I think.

3. I personally dont mind voiding my warranty lol, but I understand that is a concern for some people. A heatgun or a dremmel is what I said. A desoldering iron with built in pump could get it done with ease (not typical soldering iron as that would be a nightmare).

5. regardless of the cpu socket location the fabrication of custom acrylic is very cheap and could be made many times for different boards with little time.

6. VLP ram only protrudes max 3mm above the clip, I made sure to keep enough space. And also the gpu wont get shorted if there is an insulating layer underneath it.

The thinnest radiator I've found is this:

http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Magicool-G2-SLIM-120mm-Radiator_48569.html

152x120x27mm.

Silverstone makes a 120mmx15mm fan:

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?scase=c_120&pid=499&area=en

I can fabricate another acrylic top for the rad to make bring the threads to the side (parallel with the ground), then attach this pump directly to the acrylic:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anself-Ultr...d=1425293724&sr=8-1&keywords=small+water+pump

This would bring the total depth to something like 22cm. 300x220x54mm ~3.6L We would need some of your custom parts to achieve sub 3L though. It's hard to describe with just words, I'll try and make a full render with all parts this evening.

Like I said, it's not nearly as compact as your build, but it should be small enough for my taste. Your project is really inspiration QinX, I cant wait to see the finished build!
 
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fusionxr said:
I totally agree, the small details are the hardest, but thats why sharing ideas lets us solve these problems better. More brains are always better than 1 :D

1. I was thinking about using the hdplex-250w

2. I can make custom 24pin and 4pin cables cut to size and shave off some height off the 24pin connector by bending the cable pins at angles.

2. The asrock z97e ac has an m.2 slot. I just noticed the one in my model is actually the z97e ac, not h81m-itx. :rolleyes: With this board theres a 43mm m.2 ssd port on the bottom, limiting you to 256gb I think.

3. I personally dont mind voiding my warranty lol, but I understand that is a concern for some people. A heatgun or a dremmel is what I said. A desoldering iron with built in pump could get it done with ease (not typical soldering iron as that would be a nightmare).

5. regardless of the cpu socket location the fabrication of custom acrylic is very cheap and could be made many times for different boards with little time.

6. VLP ram only protrudes max 3mm above the clip, I made sure to keep enough space. And also the gpu wont get shorted if there is an insulating layer underneath it.

The thinnest radiator I've found is this:

http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Magicool-G2-SLIM-120mm-Radiator_48569.html

152x120x27mm.

Silverstone makes a 120mmx15mm fan:

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?scase=c_120&pid=499&area=en

I can fabricate another acrylic top for the rad to make bring the threads to the side (parallel with the ground), then attach this pump directly to the acrylic:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anself-Ultr...d=1425293724&sr=8-1&keywords=small+water+pump

This would bring the total depth to something like 22cm. 300x220x54mm ~3.6L We would need some of your custom parts to achieve sub 3L though. It's hard to describe with just words, I'll try and make a full render with all parts this evening.

Like I said, it's not nearly as compact as your build, but it should be small enough for my taste. Your project is really inspiration QinX, I cant wait to see the finished build!
Click to expand...

I've a model of the HD-plex 250W I have made, If you are interested I could upload it to dropbox for public use.

I'm curious to see how you intend to seal the acrylic, are you using regular O-rings or will you glue it?

I'm not too sure about your choice of rad
I've benched mine and it is only just adequate for the job

Here's a quick calc
Magicool 120mm rad
144m^2*16FPI= 2304

H2O-Micro dual 80mm rad:
128mm^2*30FPI=3840

Even though the surface area for the fan is larger, because of the low FPI count it lacks total surface area for the air to pass by.
Chances are that it will lack proper cooling for load it has to handle.

Try and find a 30-FPI radiator, like the koolance one I linked.
 
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I've made some good progess and had some setbacks

First the progress:
I've received and assembled waterblocks, I had a small problem with the GPU waterblock but you can read that a little later in this post.
I also assembled and tested the complete system, for 2 days....

Here is an overview photo of the assembled system, all that is missing is the case and the HD-Plex board.

Click the image for a larger version

It seems the GPU has given up on me. I was in the middle of stress testing the system when all of a sudden the screen went black.
Systems seems to be running okay with the video output on the IGP, but no video output from the GTX970. Windows/BIOS also doesn't see the GPU.

I'm going to have to disassemble the system and remount the air cooler to test in on a secondary system. If it's dead I will have to RMA it.

Also a slight problem with the GPU block itself.
The micro-channel design I made has not been implemented correctly. This is leading to higher then expected temperatures on the GPU Core and imbalanced flow between GPU and VRM.
My supplier is going to look into it, where they made the translation error and send me a new block free of charge, that's some good service :)
To give an indication of what has happened, here are some Computational Simulations I've run.
The differences do seem very small but it is enough to make the GPU throttle the Boost clock because it is getting to warm.

CAD Drawing

Click the image for a larger version

CFD Difference in Flow, This shows a highlight of all the parts where the Velocity of the Water is 1 meter/s you can see that the velocity in the original design is smaller around the VRM

Click the image for a larger version

CFD Copper Temperatures: Here you can see the difference in Temperature of the Copper where it touches the RAM/VRM and GPU the Original Design has slightly darker colours, which means it is cooler. Especially the GPU Core is visibly cooler

Click the image for a larger version

CFD Core Temperature: Here I samples the average temperature of the GPU core. You can see the average has gone up by about 2C. Again the colour shows that the temperatures are higher.

Click the image for a larger version

I'm expecting the case to be done this week.
 
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Good work! Disappointing about the gpu, but hopefully things'll get better.
 
This thing is so thin!
I hope the GPU problem is not because of your setup with the HDplex250 parallel to the mobo. (Even though you were precautious and disconected it from the mobo 12v)
 
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