Star Citizen - media blowout, Chris Robert's new game

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Is this the troll you have been looking for?
 
M76 said:
Tell me again, how is this game not pay to win? All I see for pages is people discussing what sweet deals they got on this and that ship.
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I think most people would consider it P2W, but virtually no one in this thread will.

FrEaKy said:
Just because you can buy a ship doesn't make this game pay 2 win.

You can find ANY ship thats in the game somewhere and steal it or buy it or earn it yourself. Just some of us took the easy route and went ahead and got it early is all.

P2W to me is when you can buy something that NO ONE else can get unless they pay money. These ships u can get throughout the game, so its not P2W.
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That's not even close to my definition of P2W. By that definition someone who paid a wad of cash could have a ship with massive advantages that could take 1000 hours to earn in game, be blowing practically everyone (that didn't P2W) out of the sky for months and months, and it isn't P2W. Obviously that is hyperbole, but that doesn't change it from P2W to not P2W, it just makes it less P2W. P2W isn't black or white, it's shades of gray.

People that paid are going to have a significant advantage over those that didn't for an as yet unknown amount of time. And that amount of time doesn't necessarily end when the average person gets the same ship, having piloted that ship for X amount of time will probably still be an advantage over the non-payer that switched from ship Y to ship Z yesterday.

And people that continue to pay (i.e. making ongoing UEC purchases) will probably have an advantage over those that don't.

How do Auroras do against Hornets in AC right now? I don't have any personal experience, but from what I've read the Auroras get raped. Which is pretty different than a lot of what you'd hear on the boards over the year prior to release with the defenders of the status quo claiming victors will be determined by skill alone nearly all the time.
 
Once the game goes live/finished, do they plan to keep selling items for cash or is that only during the funding period?
 
Frankie said:
I think most people would consider it P2W, but virtually no one in this thread will.



That's not even close to my definition of P2W. By that definition someone who paid a wad of cash could have a ship with massive advantages that could take 1000 hours to earn in game, be blowing practically everyone (that didn't P2W) out of the sky for months and months, and it isn't P2W. Obviously that is hyperbole, but that doesn't change it from P2W to not P2W, it just makes it less P2W. P2W isn't black or white, it's shades of gray.

People that paid are going to have a significant advantage over those that didn't for an as yet unknown amount of time. And that amount of time doesn't necessarily end when the average person gets the same ship, having piloted that ship for X amount of time will probably still be an advantage over the non-payer that switched from ship Y to ship Z yesterday.

And people that continue to pay (i.e. making ongoing UEC purchases) will probably have an advantage over those that don't.

How do Auroras do against Hornets in AC right now? I don't have any personal experience, but from what I've read the Auroras get raped. Which is pretty different than a lot of what you'd hear on the boards over the year prior to release with the defenders of the status quo claiming victors will be determined by skill alone nearly all the time.
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Equal skill players aurora loses to the hornet but there are a few pilots out there that love their aurora and destroy average hornet pilots.
 
Xrave said:
Once the game goes live/finished, do they plan to keep selling items for cash or is that only during the funding period?
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Current plan is no more ship sales after release. They plan to sell small amounts of in-game currency, but the amount you can buy per month will be capped.

Most of the ships will need at least some upgrades just to fill your gear slots, and only come with basic guns, engines etc. new. So you will likely need to spend as much or more than the ship costs in-game to get it fully upgraded.

The P2W things they have said they are NOT doing are exclusive items you have to pay cash to get that are the best in the game, premium/elite/gold status that increases the rewards you get in game and super long grinds to get ships/gear that people have bought.
 
Ragenrok said:
Equal skill players aurora loses to the hornet but there are a few pilots out there that love their aurora and destroy average hornet pilots.
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This

Thats why I dont think this game will be P2W, it will be a game of skill. There will most likley be players running around with an Aurora or an Avenger that will take out hornets and Heralds and maybe even connies, we dont know yet.
 
People who backed the game deserve being rewarded as far as this one game is concerned. The people who wait for the official release wouldn't have a game without them. Complaining about this is ridiculous. Anyone who wants to can get in on it right this second for less than the final game. A moderately larger sum of money will get a pretty nice ship too. I spent around $80 or so for my package with 315P, which IMO is a pretty capable ship, that I don't think I'll be changing from. That's not any more than some collectors edition game. Backers who backed more, will have more resources at their disposal, but then, they helped that much more in funding the game.
 
The game won't be Pay2Win, doesn't mean people don't feel like or that it isn't right now. The Hornet is clearly dominant in fights, the 350R in racing and the M50 is a good all around ship for good pilots. We will see what will happen when AC 1.0 hits, but the fact is, people are still limited to the ships and weapons that they paid for and in some cases hundreds of dollars (and AC bucks won't be in the first release of AC 1.0 and even that won't let you upgrade your ship). You could pay a sub to get a tester badge, but even that has a 6 month waiting period on it and is $10 a month, and for the sake of statistics and testing they can't open all ships to all backers because then all everyone would fly are the Hornets. Now, the Hornets are about to get hit by a major nerf hammer, the F7A Trainer is going away and we are about to get the respective F7C civilian line of ship without the ball turret, except the Super Hornet (P2W again?).

Point being there is no simple solution without skewing resolute CIG needs to balance the PU, there will be money short cuts in the game for people that simply don't have time like myself now with a full time job or people who simply can afford it and want to be arm chair admirals, but nothing is behind a permanent pay wall, everything can be earn as specifically stated by CIG, except for LTI which CIG has stated over and over and over and over again isn't worth the overblown price people are selling it for. Heck in Elite Dangerous beta backers get a 25% discount on their insurance and I would be happy with that in Star Citizen on all my ships on all items for being an Alpha backer.
 
It's certainly possible that they'll end up with a very good balance in terms of playtime vs. purchasing UEC (and purchasing ships prior to launch), and skill vs. gear. But I think it's going to be pretty tricky, and I think companies with a lot more experience with MMOs have completely cocked up easier balancing acts. Regardless of whether they nail their ideal, there will always be people that will complain about it (on both sides). Including possibly me, if their ideal is vastly different than my own.

The only somewhat major worry I have at the moment is that IIRC there seems to be some emphasis on things like exploration and "server first" (for lack of a better term) type activities, and it seems like the people with the money to blow on the most suitable ships and UEC to burn are going to have a massive advantage in this regard.

Ragenrok said:
Equal skill players aurora loses to the hornet but there are a few pilots out there that love their aurora and destroy average hornet pilots.
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That's about what I'd expect. It's not the gear uber alles that a typical MMORPG is (though there's still actually more room for skill in those than many would claim or think), but it's still a significant advantage. Whether that's P2W or not P2W is up to the individuals definition of P2W. For some it isn't, for some it is.
 
FrEaKy said:
it will be a game of skill. There will most likley be players running around with an Aurora or an Avenger that will take out hornets and Heralds and maybe even connies, we dont know yet.
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Just because an amazing pilot in an Aurora can take out a mediocre pilot in a Hornet doesn't mean it's a game of skill. It means it's a game of both skill and gear. It's not even really debatable.
 
They also plan on selling expansion content for the single-player game. I'm sure that will add new ships and whatnot as time goes on. It's crazy to think that CR won't milk this for years to come.
 
@Chibe: That image!!!!! You jerk.

:p Can't wait until the next page.
 
Lets not forget that the entire game balance in Arena Commander is completely out of whack compared to what will be in the public universe. For instance, globally ships are going to be "tougher" and fights will take longer than most if not all previous space sims, in order to balance tactical combat and give people really meaningful decisions in a fight, not simply "shoot what you can see as fast as you can". AC is sped up multiple times in this regard for a more "arcade/traditional space shooter" feel. Furthermore, the public universe ( and even single player campaigns) will have a wide variety of play styles, so it won't be simply a "who has the best fighter" contest. Even small and mid-sized multi-crew ships will be able to hold their own against dogfighters given their equip. For instance, if you think you're going to be able to take out a Constellation with a snap of your fingers if you're in a Hornet, think again! That constellation is going to have a wide variety of tracking weapons, turrets (manned/NPC/AI or point defense automatic) etc... Remember there will be lots of other types of ship-based gameplay as well, from mining and salvaging to personnel transport, boarding, racing, medical, info running/hacking, and more that will favor more skills than simply basic ship combat.
 
The other thing is, should the game completely eschew the perception of P2W and limit it to Grind to Win? Why should someone who sits on their ass for 10 hours a day with no job be able to grind to that big expensive ship faster than me and gain an advantage? (For the record I don't believe more expensive ships grant a big advantage, I think this game is much more skill based than that)

I think having two paths to acquiring basic gear (ships) is a good thing for the health of the game. You can buy it and save time, or you can grind it and save money. Once you reach that point, whoever has the most SKILL wins.

Skill to win ftw?
 
also you cant grind2win or pay2win because there is no win. it's a simulator, an experience. if you choose to just dogfight and pirate or whatever then yeah you can "lose" by dying a lot, but even that doesn't mean you're out for good. for those who want to mine or explore or trade etc, then the whole question of balance is almost meaningless because we will just be off doing our shit and it doesn't really matter what others are doing.
 
ekuest said:
also you cant grind2win or pay2win because there is no win. it's a simulator, an experience. if you choose to just dogfight and pirate or whatever then yeah you can "lose" by dying a lot, but even that doesn't mean you're out for good. for those who want to mine or explore or trade etc, then the whole question of balance is almost meaningless because we will just be off doing our shit and it doesn't really matter what others are doing.
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This.

People keep equating the ownership of a ship as winning.
Owning a racing ship will not automatically make you win races.
Owning a fighter ship does not mean you'll be an ace dogfighter.
Owning a cargo ship does not mean you automatically know the most profitable items or routes for trading.
Owning an explorer ship does not guarantee you will discover something.

All of the above things are entirely dependent on your actual skills and some luck. Skill at piloting your ship (and keep in mind all ships will handle differently). Skill at learning what items are profitable and in demand and the safest most profitable route to take. Skill at successfully navigating a wormhole and charting it properly, etc.

I own an Idris-M arguably one of the most powerful ships in the game. That doesn't automatically mean I'll be a good captain/pilot/navigator/engineer/gunner, etc.

This bears repeating because it has always been true.

Ships are only tools to do things in the game, they are not the end goal of the game.

When I used to play in WoW I was part of many US firsts (was in a top 10 US guild from the original 40 man Naxx till the end of Ulduar) and that's where we got the most satisfaction out of the game. Coordinating a full raid of 25 to 40 people working to achieve a goal through sheer skill.
Accumulation of items/loot was a distant second.
 
Erasmus354 said:
The other thing is, should the game completely eschew the perception of P2W and limit it to Grind to Win? Why should someone who sits on their ass for 10 hours a day with no job be able to grind to that big expensive ship faster than me and gain an advantage?
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Because that's how games work. Why should someone that plays chess 10 hours a day be able to kick my ass at chess? I should be able to pay $100 and make all my pieces into queens.

ekuest said:
also you cant grind2win or pay2win because there is no win. it's a simulator, an experience. if you choose to just dogfight and pirate or whatever then yeah you can "lose" by dying a lot,
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It seems like you're contradicting yourself. That is precisely the win and lose that people are talking about. If you're getting spanked constantly in dogfighting you're losing dogfighting. If you're doing the spanking, you're winning. The fact that there's no "endgame" is completely irrelevant. There's no actual "winning the game" in most online games, that doesn't mean that P2W doesn't exist. It's no different than PvP in a game like EQ2, where being able to purchase top tier raid gear for cash would absolutely 100% be P2W.
 
They've also said they are going to add some more balanced game modes to AC later that take into account what ship and gear you have. One of recent ideas for when they get the AC bucks in would be matches where everyone get the same ship and X amount of AC cash to spend on the weapons and other items. They've also talked about a ship point system where each team will total so many points, so it might be Hornets are 5 point ships, an Aurora is a 2, 300i is a 4 and a Mustang is a 3. Plus they will add game modes where you need cargo space to score, but much later, likely AC2.0 or so.
 
J3RK said:
Where did you get your copy of the completed game? I want one!
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Let me know when you have played Arena Commander because it's obvious you haven't.

Also let me know when you come up with a plausible reason for a base Aurora to be just as capable at combat as a fully outfitted Hornet.
 
Also, it is Alpha.. it doesn't really matter if it is balanced or not.

things should get unbalanced and broken and tested before the PU, because not everyone is going to have the same ship or same weapons so no encounter will ever be the same in the PU.

The game is not pay 2 win.

sure you might get a small starting advantage but that is actually for the good of the game because you will be able to start in a different part of the universe rather than being forced into high sec. space at the start because you only have an aurora.

if you have a hornet or other combat ship you can likey choose to start in a place with less protection and fare a little better spreading out the player population at the start.

so yeah the people that helped fund this game so there is a game may get some starting advantages but its nothing someone starting fresh cant get without having to spend any more on the game other than their aurora package.

And unlike most games Earning ships is supposed to be FUN!, not a grind.

They will not balance how fast you earn ships based on what it cost to pledge for, they are not going to make a hornet take a month of normal play time to earn it will likely take a couple days at most. now, if you pledged for one you get to spend those credits on gearing up your hornet better or changing its role instead of paying for the ship moving from an aurora so yeah you still get a bit of a lasting benefit.

Everyone that pledged over an aurora will have an in game monetary head start, which is nothing in the grand scheme of things. sure good for a couple weeks but after that the playing field will likely be so close that you wont even recognize the difference between a backer and a new player, out side of the people that have 890 jumps or idris or Javelins, if you even EVER see one of those players, their numbers are so small compared to the total number of players you likely will never see one unless you party with one or intentionally go looking for one, so you can likely ignore them.
 
Frankie said:
Let me know when you have played Arena Commander because it's obvious you haven't.

Also let me know when you come up with a plausible reason for a base Aurora to be just as capable at combat as a fully outfitted Hornet.
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What does that have to do with what i said? Arena Commander is not complete, and is barely even a fraction of the game.
 
If it wasn't obvious to everyone, AMD's latest driver released called Omega also happens to be the name of the AMD Mustang Omega variant :)

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Well after ages of being confused with what the hell each package or ship does. I just took the plunge and bought an Aurora LN. It looked like the most expensive of the cheap ships so I figured what the hell. Ha.

Was hoping to play tonight only to see a 20gig patch. At 2mb/s that isn't going to happen, sadly.
 
aeonrevolution said:
Well after ages of being confused with what the hell each package or ship does. I just took the plunge and bought an Aurora LN. It looked like the most expensive of the cheap ships so I figured what the hell. Ha.

Was hoping to play tonight only to see a 20gig patch. At 2mb/s that isn't going to happen, sadly.
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Sorry you can't jump in quick, but the LN is a fine ship- enjoy AC! Remember, it's semi-realistic, so try just flying around and exploration mode (if that's still in , I'm patching also!), and learn the functions a bit.
 
Lorien said:
Patch 0.9.2.2 released ahead of schedule, Gladiator hangar ready: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...-In-Hangar-With-Arena-Commander-V0922-Release
Gladiator_Promo_01.jpg


Ship will go on sale this Friday along with the full brochure release. :cool:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/4066538/#Comment_4066538
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That's nice though... I'd still very much like to see Avenger flight ready. That being said I still have plans to melt it and upgrade 325A to Freelancer DUR. Avenger and especially 325A is something that shouldn't take long to earn in actual game.
 
Frankie said:
Because that's how games work. Why should someone that plays chess 10 hours a day be able to kick my ass at chess? I should be able to pay $100 and make all my pieces into queens.
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You chose a pretty poor example. Someone who plays chess 10 hours a day doesn't get to start a game against me with all of their pawns upgraded to queens because they have played a lot and accumulated gear. They start on a completely level playing field and therefore it is 100% skill.

People are arguing that someone else having a "better" piece of gear than them makes the game pay 2 win. Under that same argument, someone who has more time to play the game can get better gear and then it could be argued that the game is grind 2 win. Both arguments are the same at their core.

My point was that, neither is really bad. If someone has more time, let them use it, if someone has more money, let them use it. It can only get you so far. You still need to have skill to succeed in this game. Time and money will not make up for a lack of skill.
 
J3RK said:
What does that have to do with what i said? Arena Commander is not complete, and is barely even a fraction of the game.
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So it's your contention that dogfighting wins will be based entirely on skill (and a little luck), i.e. it will have nothing to do with your "gear"?
 
Erasmus354 said:
You chose a pretty poor example.
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Not really.

Under that same argument, someone who has more time to play the game can get better gear and then it could be argued that the game is grind 2 win. Both arguments are the same at their core.
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One person gets better by playing the game. The other gets better by paying money. Which is why the chess example is perfectly appropriate.

money will not make up for a lack of skill.
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Incorrect. It will not entirely make up for a lack of skill. It will make up for some of it.
 
Wildace said:
They will not balance how fast you earn ships based on what it cost to pledge for, they are not going to make a hornet take a month of normal play time to earn it will likely take a couple days at most.
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Any official advertisements or feature lists which state this? Even a forum post by someone involved with the project does not mean much. If they can put it into writing then it means something.
 
Nice got the two year insurance. Im sure that is more than enough to get started. By the two year itll be upgraded and changdd so much lti wont be a big difference
 
During the anniversary sale a few weeks back you could buy a upgrade such as the Aurora LX upgrade for the Aurora MR in the starter pack and if you applied it before Dec 11, they would do a account scan yesterday and apply those upgraded packages with 2 year insurance.
 
Right now you have the trainer variant for Arena Commander, the LN is confirmed added for v 1.0.
 
aeonrevolution said:
What is the deal with insurance. I think my starter nub ship came with 3 months.
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It's probably not going to be anything special. LTI or long insurance is more like minor convenience rather than must have feature.

Edit:
I mean that you don't really have to worry about it since it should be pretty painless process to buy/renew insurance in game.
 
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