Most Motorists Think Self-Driving Cars Are 'Dangerous'

I'm just waiting for the first automated car accident, let's see who they find culpable for it. I'm not going near those things until I know how that's going to work out. Either personally or professionally, there is just as much chance that they'll rule the programmers to be legally at fault.
 
Quix said:
I'm just waiting for the first automated car accident, let's see who they find culpable for it. I'm not going near those things until I know how that's going to work out. Either personally or professionally, there is just as much chance that they'll rule the programmers to be legally at fault.
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:rolleyes:

I think you tried to hard to have something to say and failed at it.

People really shouldn't start babbling on about FUD that can easily be debunked by searching Wiki or Snopes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car#Incidents

Two accidents, both due to human error.
 
Self-driving cars are kinda scary, until you compare them to (distracted, eating, drinking, texting, raging) human driven cars which are fucking terrifying.
 
techrat said:
:rolleyes:

I think you tried to hard to have something to say and failed at it.

People really shouldn't start babbling on about FUD that can easily be debunked by searching Wiki or Snopes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_driverless_car#Incidents

Two accidents, both due to human error.
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In April 2014, the team announced that their vehicles have now logged nearly 700,000 autonomous miles (1.1 million km).[24] In late May,
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700K miles really isn't much considering the Google cars are only driven during optimal conditions on predetermined routes on known roads. I've driven over ~400K miles and I need to get in the car and drive rain or shine, snowy conditions, night driving, traffic, unpaved roads, country detours, flooded roads... Zero accidents. No one puts up a Wikipedia article trying to show how awesome I am at driving.
 
I don't know why people aren't begging for driverless cars. If all cars, and trucks, on the road were driverles you would instantly drop the number of car accidents on the road to likely a few a month nationally (if that many) instead of a few thousand (tens of thousands?) a month, traffic jams would be almost eliminated, there would no longer be speed limits (except as fast and as far as the car could process information), and you would almost always get to where you want to go faster. Driverless cars have more sensors, longer range, and faster reaction time than humans, and can talk to each other in real time. They can do everything a human can do, but better, even off road (yes there are off road driverless cars). The problem with driverless cars now is that the tech is still too big for small cars and the software isn't perfect yet but I see all of this being solved in 5 years or less. Personally if it were up to me, I would ban cars with drivers on public roads. Oh and no overrides for humans as they would just get in crashes and slow things down. With driverless cars, driving would become safer than flying.
 
MarkVI said:
I'd like to agree with you, but what will happen the first time someone dies because of a software glitch? Even worse, what if someone hacks or tampers with the software?
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Well first of all 30 THOUSAND people have to die in a year in automated cars for software to catch up to wetware in road kills. Perfection is not the goal at all, the goal is to reduce that number of deaths. We want to completely remove human ego from driving.
 
Pheesh said:
There's at least one situation I can recall where if I had been in a driverless car I would likely either be dead or seriously injured, so that's enough for me. There's a rural highway and some backgroads near my house, and one particular intersection is known for cars coming perpendicular to the highway overlooking their stop sign and passing right through the intersection. There's tall grass/wheat fields nearby which mostly obscures the perpendicular traffic. I was driving with the family and spotted the very top of a car approaching this intersection at high speed...and they did not appear to be slowing down at all. To a basic vision system the viewable portion of the approaching car would basically be indistinguishable from a bird. I dropped our speed considerably as this car approached and it freaking blew right through the intersection, completely oblivious. If I had maintained my path my family and I would have likely been T-boned in a very serious or fatal accident. I do not trust a driverless car to defensively drive better than an aware, experienced driver.
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Just thought i'd reply to this, since I don't know if it would be good or not.
Indeed, this could happen but if you were to both have driverless car that probably wouldn't have happened either.
 
I believe these kind of stories are created just to sway public opinion against a given idea and have no real basis on what people actually think.
 
^this guy totally gets it. So much FUD, paranoia, and mistrust of technology in this thread it's hilarious. Ironic too considering this is [H] not .
 
Vielgus-Kutas said:
who wants be in a car that's driven by google and the goobernment, lol, are you kidding me?
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Hururrrr Boobermunt nevah gits an'thang rite!

wX0sVVi.jpg
 
Self driving cars are not at a level of maturity where completely independent operation is ready for the public yet,

As mentioned, things like snow storms could pose real problems as the cars cameras can't see line markings on the road.

That being said, any system in a self driving car should be able to know when it has insufficient information for automatic driving, notify the operator to switch to manual and pull over safely.

In the short term, semi-automatic systems, like in the newest Tesla Model S units seem pretty decent to me.

Using one of these systems a driver is likely to be much safer, than your typical "dude I'm 5 feet behind you at 80mph, while checking my phone" morons.

2-3 second following distance people. Follow it.

Anyway, they should save lots of lives, and plenty of fender benders.

I wouldn't want to use a system like that for all my driving, but on long stretches when I am tired, you bet, I'd take advantage of it.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041241285 said:
Self driving cars are not at a level of maturity where completely independent operation is ready for the public yet,

As mentioned, things like snow storms could pose real problems as the cars cameras can't see line markings on the road.

That being said, any system in a self driving car should be able to know when it has insufficient information for automatic driving, notify the operator to switch to manual and pull over safely.

In the short term, semi-automatic systems, like in the newest Tesla Model S units seem pretty decent to me.

Using one of these systems a driver is likely to be much safer, than your typical "dude I'm 5 feet behind you at 80mph, while checking my phone" morons.

2-3 second following distance people. Follow it.

Anyway, they should save lots of lives, and plenty of fender benders.

I wouldn't want to use a system like that for all my driving, but on long stretches when I am tired, you bet, I'd take advantage of it.
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That's for gutless "defensive driving" type pussies didn't you get the memo? Aggressive (more like reckless) driving FTW!
 
n=1 said:
That's for gutless "defensive driving" type pussies didn't you get the memo? Aggressive (more like reckless) driving FTW!
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I don't care who you are, or how "good" you think you are at driving, human perception-reaction time is a real thing, and varies from person to person, and also within the same person depending on what they are doing.

Under ideal conditions, waiting for an expected trigger, it can be as good as 0.15s, but it can get much, much worse, depending on how tired someone is, or if they happen to be doing something like changing the radio station while something happens. Remember response time also includes moving ones foot to the brake pedal and applying it.

Best practice human factors engineering is to assume a worst case of 1.5s of perception-response time in the case where a human is paying attention, and much much less if they are not (like playing with their phone).

I have no problem with people speeding (I do it a lot) but when I see people weaving through traffic, passing on the right, not using their turning signals, or following closely, it means to me that they don't have a clue how to drive properly.

I wish cops would put away their damned radar guns and focus on writing tickets for these behaviors instead, as they are much much more dangerous than going 20-30mph above the limit.

Pick and object ahead on the road. When you see the car ahead of you pass it, count how many seconds pass until you reach it. Target 2-3 seconds. If it is less than that, you are driving poorly. I don't care who the hell you are, or how effective you think your driving style is.

As with everything else in life, those who think they are the best at something, are often a bit arrogant, and actually fare worse than average. People who think they know everything, are often rather ignorant. People who think they are excellent multitaskers, are usually the worst of everyone tested in multitasking tests. This very definitely applies to driving as well.

I'm not for completely replacing human drivers with machines (at least not yet), but semi-automatic systems that help mitigate reaction time and distraction problems, I am a huge fan of. Every little bit helps, and WILL save lives.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the driving experience. I am a car enthusiast, but it would be great to have the OPTION.

Maybe some day we will get to the point where I can go to the bar and have a few drinks, hop in the passenger seat of my car, and push the "home" button and not have to worry. This would be fantastic, especially since public transit is so terrible in the U.S.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041241470 said:
I don't care who you are, or how "good" you think you are at driving, human perception-reaction time is a real thing, and varies from person to person, and also within the same person depending on what they are doing.

Under ideal conditions, waiting for an expected trigger, it can be as good as 0.15s, but it can get much, much worse, depending on how tired someone is, or if they happen to be doing something like changing the radio station while something happens. Remember response time also includes moving ones foot to the brake pedal and applying it.

Best practice human factors engineering is to assume a worst case of 1.5s of perception-response time in the case where a human is paying attention, and much much less if they are not (like playing with their phone).

I have no problem with people speeding (I do it a lot) but when I see people weaving through traffic, passing on the right, not using their turning signals, or following closely, it means to me that they don't have a clue how to drive properly.

I wish cops would put away their damned radar guns and focus on writing tickets for these behaviors instead, as they are much much more dangerous than going 20-30mph above the limit.

Pick and object ahead on the road. When you see the car ahead of you pass it, count how many seconds pass until you reach it. Target 2-3 seconds. If it is less than that, you are driving poorly. I don't care who the hell you are, or how effective you think your driving style is.

As with everything else in life, those who think they are the best at something, are often a bit arrogant, and actually fare worse than average. People who think they know everything, are often rather ignorant. People who think they are excellent multitaskers, are usually the worst of everyone tested in multitasking tests. This very definitely applies to driving as well.

I'm not for completely replacing human drivers with machines (at least not yet), but semi-automatic systems that help mitigate reaction time and distraction problems, I am a huge fan of. Every little bit helps, and WILL save lives.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the driving experience. I am a car enthusiast, but it would be great to have the OPTION.

Maybe some day we will get to the point where I can go to the bar and have a few drinks, hop in the passenger seat of my car, and push the "home" button and not have to worry. This would be fantastic, especially since public transit is so terrible in the U.S.
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Agreed 100%. Especially on the part where my car can DD me home after a night out. Easy to say you won't get behind the wheel when you've had too much, but when you're faced with the prospect of 2 $50 cab fares to get home and get back to your car maybe you decide to drive home because you're only a bit buzzed. Whats more dangerous, the drunk guy or the self-driving car?
 
nutzo said:
Self driving cars have sensors to keep themselves on the road and avoid objects, they don't just rely on GPS and drive off cliffs like some drivers do :)

However, they still have a along way to go before self driving cars can safely drive around on city streets and avoid hitting stuff/people. I think we'll initially see them in controlled locations like on large company campuses. Next they will start switch carpool lanes to self driving lanes, and eventually most freeways will only allow self driving cars. As for residential streets, remote highways, etc. it will take a lot longer.

I'd love to be able to get on the freeway, press a button and kick back and watch a movie, nap, etc. while the car drives me to where I need to go. It would make much longer road trips practical, especially if you can have the car drive all night while you sleep. I think we'd see a noticeable drop in people taking airplanes on shorter trips.
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So do airplanes, they still fall out of the sky frequently enough.
 
lcpiper said:
I am 54, just how far do you try and stretch the "lucky"

I am an aggressive driver and I don't drive a car that's a pig and can't respond to what I need it to do. Because I am aggressive I stay engaged in what is going on around me. All these "defensive driving" types automatically equate aggressive with careless and that is wrong thinking. Aggressive doesn't mean careless, it means aggressive. It means not complacent, not distracted, not asleep, not doing things other then what you are supposed to be doing, driving and staying out of trouble.
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Where do you live? Around me, there was a quarter mile stretch of highway (Interstate 95 going into NYC) which last year made a list of one of the top 10 most dangerous spots to drive in the USA. The problem is, it's a dead straightaway and half the time you're never traveling more than 15 mph due to traffic. Yet they average 800+ accidents a year in that 1/4 mile strip.

I'm all for self driving cars as long as there is an emergency override, but I also think the emergency override needs to be limited to something like 10 miles so people don't continuously use it. I do think though that a lot of people will get pissed off with self driving cars, because you can no longer drive like a maniac, weaving in and out of lanes, and driving 60+ mph in icy weather, and leaving less than 1 ft. between you and the car ahead of you.
 
ocellaris said:
700K miles really isn't much considering the Google cars are only driven during optimal conditions on predetermined routes on known roads. I've driven over ~400K miles and I need to get in the car and drive rain or shine, snowy conditions, night driving, traffic, unpaved roads, country detours, flooded roads... Zero accidents. No one puts up a Wikipedia article trying to show how awesome I am at driving.
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Cheers, oh, and what if you actually need the car to drive OFF of the road? Will the car come to that conclusion and do what is needed or will the loop be fatally infinite?
 
Currently the technology to make it safer like lane departure warnings are really good. I have it on my car and it's amazing how sensitive it is. Self driving car might be a good idea if I'm traveling far and I need to mitigate the fatigue from driving for long periods of time.

If everyone has a self driving car, that would work well however what about the scenario that the guy driving next to you swerves and hits your self driving car? I've swerved out of people hitting me all the time. I highly doubt the computer would even think of this scenario.
 
[21CW]killerofall;1041240548 said:
I don't know why people aren't begging for driverless cars. If all cars, and trucks, on the road were driverles you would instantly drop the number of car accidents on the road to likely a few a month nationally (if that many) instead of a few thousand (tens of thousands?) a month, traffic jams would be almost eliminated, there would no longer be speed limits (except as fast and as far as the car could process information), and you would almost always get to where you want to go faster. Driverless cars have more sensors, longer range, and faster reaction time than humans, and can talk to each other in real time. They can do everything a human can do, but better, even off road (yes there are off road driverless cars). The problem with driverless cars now is that the tech is still too big for small cars and the software isn't perfect yet but I see all of this being solved in 5 years or less. Personally if it were up to me, I would ban cars with drivers on public roads. Oh and no overrides for humans as they would just get in crashes and slow things down. With driverless cars, driving would become safer than flying.
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Why? Because I like driving, I enjoy it and you know what, I have never been in an accident and I have easily done my fair share of driving, sometimes for days at a time. All those stats, they are the other drivers stats, mine are much better then theirs. The way I see it, all those deaths on the highway are just proof that Darwin was correct both on and off road :D
 
lcpiper said:
Why? Because I like driving, I enjoy it and you know what, I have never been in an accident and I have easily done my fair share of driving, sometimes for days at a time. All those stats, they are the other drivers stats, mine are much better then theirs. The way I see it, all those deaths on the highway are just proof that Darwin was correct both on and off road :D
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The rest of us don't give a crap what you like to do. You like to drive? Buy/build a track and you can personally drive all you want. But if you think we should risk terrorists being able to drive 2-ton bullets around all day just because you like to drive, you're nuts. Stop the terrorists/save the children! If you don't support giving the government override authority to control your car you're probably a terrorist.

It's opposite day right? I can't fathom any other reason Icpiper would be arguing in favor of individual liberties...
 
Zarathustra[H];1041239168 said:
I'd trust a self driving car more than I would the average driver...
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I wouldn't trust either of them. That's why I'm glad that I'm driving my car.
 
In other news, I was nearly killed on my motorcycle this morning by a woman too busy texting to watch the road. I then watched her do the same with 3 cars ahead of me..tapping the third one on the rear bumber. The piece of shit even had her 3 kids in the back.
 
Kueller said:
The rest of us don't give a crap what you like to do. You like to drive? Buy/build a track and you can personally drive all you want. But if you think we should risk terrorists being able to drive 2-ton bullets around all day just because you like to drive, you're nuts. Stop the terrorists/save the children! If you don't support giving the government override authority to control your car you're probably a terrorist.

It's opposite day right? I can't fathom any other reason Icpiper would be arguing in favor of individual liberties...
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You don't have to give a shit about me, that is up to me, and don't worry, I have enough going on taking care of my own problems, I won't be getting into yours' either unless you think you have some right to push your wants onto me.

You haven't been paying attention if you haven't figured out that I am a civil liberties champion, a defender of the little guy at every turn. I am completely against self-driving cars because I know the only way they can really work is if they force everyone to use them and I was never really in for that whole government forcing things on the citizens gig. You are like the rest here that see my attacks on the media and those whole believe bullshit that isn't true as a defense of the "accused". My telling you, that a given reporter is lying to you, does not mean I am defending the people the reporter is attacking. It only means the reporter is lying, you are the one that jumps to the false conclusions, not I.

So if you can't recognize a friend because his message is unpopular then that's not my loss, it's yours.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041243647 said:
Yeah, but you are still going to be sharing roads with them :p
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All the more reason to pay attention so they don't get you :D

P.S., and make sure you drive a car that can move if you need it to. I am very fond of my 325i, it's been one terrific car. It's certainly not a monster but it moves quick and handles well, not bad on mileage, pretty comfortable, and decent size inside for comfort and outside for parking and such. U-Turns are legal in AZ and it handles those pretty well too. Cost me 28K in 2007 with 20K miles on it. It has almost 80K on it now and still a solid performer on the street. Heated seats, yes :D
 
lcpiper said:
All the more reason to pay attention so they don't get you :D

P.S., and make sure you drive a car that can move if you need it to. I am very fond of my 325i, it's been one terrific car. It's certainly not a monster but it moves quick and handles well, not bad on mileage, pretty comfortable, and decent size inside for comfort and outside for parking and such. U-Turns are legal in AZ and it handles those pretty well too. Cost me 28K in 2007 with 20K miles on it. It has almost 80K on it now and still a solid performer on the street. Heated seats, yes :D
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I thought all cars had heated seats? :p (then again, maybe that's because I've only lived in Scandinavia and in New England)

Agreed, having a car that can move and maneuver well really helps on the "active safety" side of things. The safest accident is the one that never happens.

I used to most have Saabs before the bankruptcy. My 9-5 Aero's were great, but I found out the hard way that if traffic suddenly stops ahead, don't use the full breaking power, as it had a much shorter stopping distance than most other cars on the road, and I got rear ended a couple of times, because the jerk behind me was following more closely than the combination of him and his car could handle.

These days I break early, and slowly, and stop as closely to the stopped car ahead of me as I can, to avoid rear-endings.

Lessons learned.

Got rid of my last Saab (a 2011 9-5 with a six speed manual) after the parts scares resulted from the bankruptcy. Had a touch time finding a car I really liked after that. Wound up with a Volvo S80 T6. I miss the manual transmission, and it DOES feel a little truck-like, but the turbocharged straight six provides enough on-ramp power, and despite its truck-like feel, it handles and maneuvers quite well. Still, while my old Saabs had "souls" this just feels like a soulless mode of transportation, which is a little depressing. I am a car guy, I want to love my car, but just can't right now.

After the Saabs I looked at Audi's and BMW's. The Audis felt right, and the BMW's weren't bad, but post warranty maintenance costs scared me off. Can't bring myself to buy Japanese or American, so Volvo it was. :(
 
One part of me loves the idea. The occasional long 7+ hour drive to Dallas on I37 and I35- I could see how useful that would be. Be nice to get up there at lunch time without feeling like crap. Put the car on the highway, hit cruise control, and take a nice long nap listening to Pink Floyd......or watching porn, whatever.

The control freak side of me makes me uncomfortable trusting anyone but myself behind the wheel, no matter the processing capability. I have a feeling once this comes to pass, self driving cars, it will take off like wildfire. I am old enough to see what happened over the last 20 years, and I think in another 20we will quickly be lost without our "smart cars". Steering wheels will be a memory.
 
I think reality will show that a machine drives better then "average" humans and better then average humans drive better then machines. I also think there will be times for both, times for the machine to take the wheel and times for you to take a hand's on approach to the situation. With little black boxes going into the cars the liability issue will clear up because it will focus most things right back onto the owner/driver. Anyway, until cars themselves are a thing of the past I think this will be the reality.
 
I had always envisioned this technology as being on rails, so vehicles would be locked to the roads.
 
Despite all the technology, only the most wrote tasks have been automated. Driving is not wrote. Never make the general public in our lifetime.
 
^See the spell checker broke down because it could tell there was a spelling error. Proves my point. :p
 
Yeah most people don’t pay attention while driving and smartphones have made things worse. Now while driving on freeways back in US, I have seen many people doing texting and driving. Back there I assisted a Los Angeles DUI attorney and he gets now more distracted driving cases than drunk driving ones.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041241470 said:
I don't care who you are, or how "good" you think you are at driving, human perception-reaction time is a real thing, and varies from person to person, and also within the same person depending on what they are doing.

Under ideal conditions, waiting for an expected trigger, it can be as good as 0.15s, but it can get much, much worse, depending on how tired someone is, or if they happen to be doing something like changing the radio station while something happens. Remember response time also includes moving ones foot to the brake pedal and applying it.

Best practice human factors engineering is to assume a worst case of 1.5s of perception-response time in the case where a human is paying attention, and much much less if they are not (like playing with their phone).

I have no problem with people speeding (I do it a lot) but when I see people weaving through traffic, passing on the right, not using their turning signals, or following closely, it means to me that they don't have a clue how to drive properly.

I wish cops would put away their damned radar guns and focus on writing tickets for these behaviors instead, as they are much much more dangerous than going 20-30mph above the limit.

Pick and object ahead on the road. When you see the car ahead of you pass it, count how many seconds pass until you reach it. Target 2-3 seconds. If it is less than that, you are driving poorly. I don't care who the hell you are, or how effective you think your driving style is.

As with everything else in life, those who think they are the best at something, are often a bit arrogant, and actually fare worse than average. People who think they know everything, are often rather ignorant. People who think they are excellent multitaskers, are usually the worst of everyone tested in multitasking tests. This very definitely applies to driving as well.

I'm not for completely replacing human drivers with machines (at least not yet), but semi-automatic systems that help mitigate reaction time and distraction problems, I am a huge fan of. Every little bit helps, and WILL save lives.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the driving experience. I am a car enthusiast, but it would be great to have the OPTION.

Maybe some day we will get to the point where I can go to the bar and have a few drinks, hop in the passenger seat of my car, and push the "home" button and not have to worry. This would be fantastic, especially since public transit is so terrible in the U.S.
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Passing on the right is legal in Illinois as per 625 ILCS 5/11-704 http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/062500050K11-704.htm
 
Robstar said:
Passing on the right is legal in Illinois as per 625 ILCS 5/11-704 http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/062500050K11-704.htm
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That is interesting.

I suspect Illinois is different than most places in the U.S. in this regard, where it is technically illegal, but rarely enforced.

Don't try passing on the right in Europe though, where in most places this is considered a pretty bad violation of traffic laws. There could be an empty three lane highway with a gui going 30mph in the leftmost lane, and people will all be behind him (very annoyed I might add) but no one will pass him on the right.
 
So, what will the software be? Will the robotic car have decision making - such as - If I do not kill my passenger, it is more likely than not, the multiple people on the bus may die... What will its actions be in this event? Will it kill you if it is a high chance you have to die to save a higher number of people?
What calculations would be taken into consideration? Would it drive you off the cliff, so the bus does not? What level of likelihood would it do so to save the higher number of lives? 90%? 60%?
 
HvyMtl said:
So, what will the software be? Will the robotic car have decision making - such as - If I do not kill my passenger, it is more likely than not, the multiple people on the bus may die... What will its actions be in this event? Will it kill you if it is a high chance you have to die to save a higher number of people?
What calculations would be taken into consideration? Would it drive you off the cliff, so the bus does not? What level of likelihood would it do so to save the higher number of lives? 90%? 60%?
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I think that type of logic is is beyond the capabilities of computers at least for the first few generations. This is more of a potential future concern.

In order to make judgments like this, it would ahve to be able to identify that thing ahead as a bus with school kid on it, and identify a cliff, etc. etc.

At least early versions are going to have very limited data about their surroundings.

Essentially "stay inside the lines, read traffic signs, and avoid hitting large massive objects that show up on the radar, which could be other cars, buses or moose or whatever else finds itself on a road".

As we are able to better program computers to understand and interpret the world around them, this might be a future concern though, though my best guess is that it is a LONG way off.
 
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