Michigan Joins List Of Tesla-Hating States

bdavis24 said:
corporation might as well be law makers in this country... The bigger the CEO the more things get passed in their favor... blah cant stand our government. Big money must get out of our government for it to turn back into a democracy.
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We are a republic, not a democracy.
 
MrValentine said:
As a Texan, can I fly to CA buy a Tesla and drive it back?
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Why come to CA? While the weather is lovely right now, why not buy in a closer state that doesn't hate on direct internet car sales like AZ or NM?
 
To be fair, theres no reason to own anything nice in michigan because it'll just get stolen.
 
mlcarson said:
It's a poor decision for Michigan but it doesn't really matter. Very few if any people in MI would buy a Tesla. The temperature extremes -- especially in winter -- make any battery operated vehicle a bad decision. Plus you have so many people with ties to the auto industry in MI that you'll have little demand even if it were a great product.
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Meh,

Extreme cold DOES reduce range rather significantly, but most people commute 30 miles or less each way to work, so it's not THAT relevant.
 
What defines a dealership in this law? Can Tesla set up a mall kiosk somewhere in the state and satisfy the requirement? I doubt they have a law that dealers can't deliver to your door.
 
Spidey329 said:
What defines a dealership in this law? Can Tesla set up a mall kiosk somewhere in the state and satisfy the requirement? I doubt they have a law that dealers can't deliver to your door.
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I haven't read this legislation, but typically laws like this enforce that the automotive company may have no ownership stake in the retail outlet.

So, GM can not own it's own chevy dealer, etc.

It's kind of stupid, but in state and local politics the dealership lobby is a big one, and they like to keep the status quo. :mad:
 
Zarathustra[H];1041180072 said:
Yes, we are a constitutional republic.

And a constitutional republic is a form of democracy.

So, we are also a democracy.

Your argument above is like saying, It's an Orange, so it can't be a fruit!

I would argue that in many ways our Democracy is a sham, due to big money determining in large parts the outcome of elections, and what politicians vote for and against, but we are - at least on paper - a democracy, simply because a constitutional republic is a form of democracy.


There are other forms of democracy too. For instance, parliamentary constitutional monarchies are rather popular. Less popular is what they do in Switzerland which is kind of a direct democracy.

Germany rocks a federal parliamentary constitutional republic, France has some form of unitary semi presidential constitutional republic, the U.K rocks a unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy, etc. etc. etc.

What they all have in common is that they are democracies. Not all of them are direct democracies like Switzerland, but they are democracies none the less, as power ultimately is supposed to emanate from the people, through an electoral process.

When you state that the United States is not a democracy because it is a constitutional republic, all you are demonstrating is that you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking.

Can we please stop this nonsense now?
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The Key take away are two things.

In the US the majority does not always get its way. There is a skew to protect regionalities. If Montana didn't have 2 senators, with only 50,000 people it would be voted in to being the dumping ground for nuclear and toxic waste for the country.

The second, you missed, is the Constitution. The Contitution in the US elevates the individual and give him protection from the State (aka Democratically Elected officials), such that if the government (which should be the will of the majority in a democracy, theoretically) decide to F with a person because they're in the majority the other person isn't, they can't easily. Other countries have Constitutions which tend to cement State authority and often above individuals.
 
Stiletto said:
Unions have such a good influence in this country.
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Perhaps, but I read somewhere a few months ago, I think in greencarreports.com that despite union and dealer middlemanship, mainstream cars are only marked up by 6% while Tesla, despite being sold direct, are marked up by a whopping 25%.
 
Azhar said:
Perhaps, but I read somewhere a few months ago, I think in greencarreports.com that despite union and dealer middlemanship, mainstream cars are only marked up by 6% while Tesla, despite being sold direct, are marked up by a whopping 25%.
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Sure, but they're not a mainstream car company yet. Their stock and manufacturing are still limited and they're still a fairly new presence. It's the early adopter fee that so many [H]'ers are familiar with.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041180537 said:
I haven't read this legislation, but typically laws like this enforce that the automotive company may have no ownership stake in the retail outlet.

So, GM can not own it's own chevy dealer, etc.

It's kind of stupid, but in state and local politics the dealership lobby is a big one, and they like to keep the status quo. :mad:
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If you go and look up industrial sector contributions to candidates, the Automotive section is fairly big and over 90% is from the dealers. Guess who gets their way with governments? The campaign contributions laws favor numbers which the dealerships have. Even if the big auto companies wanted or could outspend the dealers, they can't.

Snyder, the governor pretty much first campaigned on sucking up to small businesses.
 
jpm100 said:
The Key take away are two things.

In the US the majority does not always get its way. There is a skew to protect regionalities. If Montana didn't have 2 senators, with only 50,000 people it would be voted in to being the dumping ground for nuclear and toxic waste for the country.

The second, you missed, is the Constitution. The Contitution in the US elevates the individual and give him protection from the State (aka Democratically Elected officials), such that if the government (which should be the will of the majority in a democracy, theoretically) decide to F with a person because they're in the majority the other person isn't, they can't easily. Other countries have Constitutions which tend to cement State authority and often above individuals.
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Agree with both of these, but the term "democracy" doesn't necessarily mean that a system has to be winner take all. (in fact most democracies have some sort of limitation to this effect).
 
Azhar said:
Perhaps, but I read somewhere a few months ago, I think in greencarreports.com that despite union and dealer middlemanship, mainstream cars are only marked up by 6% while Tesla, despite being sold direct, are marked up by a whopping 25%.
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That is because most conventional car manufacturers operate in a fiercely competitive marketplace, whereas if you want an upscale, fast, high end electric car, there isn't much choice.

Teslas margins will come down when they start facing more competition. The dealership/no dealership model isn't the only factor in pricing. Supply and demand is to.

I' not sure if they do, but during most of their history Tesla has had a waiting list in order to buy one. That very strongly suggests that not only is demand greater than supply, but it also suggests that if they really wanted to, they could raise prices, and still sell the same volume they are currently selling.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041180616 said:
That is because most conventional car manufacturers operate in a fiercely competitive marketplace, whereas if you want an upscale, fast, high end electric car, there isn't much choice.

Teslas margins will come down when they start facing more competition. The dealership/no dealership model isn't the only factor in pricing. Supply and demand is to.

I' not sure if they do, but during most of their history Tesla has had a waiting list in order to buy one. That very strongly suggests that not only is demand greater than supply, but it also suggests that if they really wanted to, they could raise prices, and still sell the same volume they are currently selling.
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Yes they do have an enormous waiting list, one factor in our decision not buying one. We'd have to wait over three months before getting our car, if that. Tesla's factory was also on the verge of being partially shut down at the time I was shopping for a new car, so their production rate was halved. They're retooling their factory to enable it to increase production to bring it in line with the number of batteries they'll be getting from the Panasonic Gigafactory.

I'm glad I held out and bought a 2014 Honda Accord Touring instead. In about 2-3 years when the Honda is paid off, hopefully Tesla's $30-50k 400 mile Model III will have launched.
 
Azhar said:
Yes they do have an enormous waiting list, one factor in our decision not buying one. We'd have to wait over three months before getting our car, if that. Tesla's factory was also on the verge of being partially shut down at the time I was shopping for a new car, so their production rate was halved. They're retooling their factory to enable it to increase production to bring it in line with the number of batteries they'll be getting from the Panasonic Gigafactory.

I'm glad I held out and bought a 2014 Honda Accord Touring instead. In about 2-3 years when the Honda is paid off, hopefully Tesla's $30-50k 400 mile Model III will have launched.
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that is, 2014 Honda Accord Touring Hybrid. Nice car! I get about 44mpg on it. Not quite gas free, but better than my last car's 16mpg!
 
The unions have nothing to do with this. It has to do with the Dealer's Network, which is phenomenally powerful... just wiki how much money dealerships make annually. The car salespeople are not unionized, in fact they are kept as commission only pseudo contract labor in most states. If you think about it all a dealership gives you is service, namely warranty and repair service. However, they make most of their money financing your purchase... not selling you a car, financing it.

When you go in they want you to leave with a car, if it is the beginning of the month or their sales numbers are high, they will try to pad their commision by haggling on the price. At the end of the month or if their numbers are low, they will sell at or below invoice. The dealership doesn't really care except that you move on to their finance manager. The finance manager will offer you either manufacture or local bank financing, either way they will charge a few points on the loan that goes back to them. Even in a 0% loan, they are getting money back from the bank. On top of this the finance manager is also the person who will try to add those extras... paint protectant...check. I know this because I have relatives that run automotive dealerships/networks.
 
damicatz said:
"We" are neither a republic or a democracy.

The United States is a plutocracy in which wealth determines the laws and not what the people think.
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You mean oligarchy. The wealthy controls the government. Plutocracy is when the wealthy rules the country. They're just pulling he puppet string behind a thinly veiled curtain.
 
Azhar said:
You mean oligarchy. The wealthy controls the government. Plutocracy is when the wealthy rules the country. They're just pulling he puppet string behind a thinly veiled curtain.
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Isn't controlling the government controlling the country for the most part? Same thing.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
So like that means the Coke brothers are evil because they're rich.
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they're evil because they rot your teeth and fill you up with chemicals. Pepsi brothers are just as bad. Christian Brothers rot your liver. Stick with Water, brother.
 
Germanium said:
Isn't controlling the government controlling the country for the most part? Same thing.
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No, the wealthy still has to walk softly around politicians who can turn on them at any time - see Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.
 
Azhar said:
they're evil because they rot your teeth and fill you up with chemicals. Pepsi brothers are just as bad. Christian Brothers rot your liver. Stick with Water, brother.
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Every person that drinks water eventually dies, so how good is it, really?:p
 
Azhar said:
No, the wealthy still has to walk softly around politicians who can turn on them at any time - see Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.
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I'm not sure how just two out of the bunch shows me much. I don't think many things in life have a 100% success rate. Anyway, a lot of people like to hate on Noam Chomsky but I'm with him that the US is a polyarchy (neither dictatorship nor any democracy). I've never heard a better explanation myself.
 
Azhar said:
No, the wealthy still has to walk softly around politicians who can turn on them at any time - see Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.
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I'll give you Bernie Sanders, but Elizabeth Warren? lol lol lol.
 
I find it interesting (or maybe not really) that the right-wingers jump in to bash this as a union problem when:

a) the dealer's association isn't a union, it is a trade association of businesses. Isn't business everything to you guys?

b) the dealer's association, or unions, or anyone else doesn't actually have any power if the politicians do not act on their wishes. The REAL target of blame for this is the Republican-controlled legislature and Republican governor. Interesting how the right-wingers decline to comment on the REAL villain here.

I further point out that all of the other states that prohibit Tesla are all Republican-controlled. I thought you guys were all about the "free market"? So, poor and middle class people shouldn't get government assistance but dealers making billions/year should. Got it.
 
Stiletto said:
I'll give you Bernie Sanders, but Elizabeth Warren? lol lol lol.
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suit yourself, they were examples. There's a lot of regulation-supporting Democratic and Independents out there that wants to put Wall Street and Big Oil in their places. That's why we're an oligarchy, not a plutocracy. Not to mention the increasing numbers of what the right likes to call activist Federal judges.

The wealthy can only push for policy changes if they find the right leverage. Even on the left - see insurance companies having a hand in the ACA, and General Mills pushing for the Monsanto Protection Act. No party is immune to the influence of the wealthy, but the wealthy still don't have total control for us to be a plutocracy.
 
Draax said:
I find these types of comments curious, in a time when wealth inequality is at its highest level since the great depression.
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Wealth inequality is so high because people use machines and foreign workers to reduce production costs. This happened why? Because unions made it expensive and inefficient to produce things with people so people solved problems that's what they do. If unions care they need to target the government and their inability to protect American exports from protectionism in developing countries that has caused US production to lose in places it should have had big advantages.
 
rudy said:
Wealth inequality is so high because people use machines and foreign workers to reduce production costs. This happened why? Because unions made it expensive and inefficient to produce things with people so people solved problems that's what they do. If unions care they need to target the government and their inability to protect American exports from protectionism in developing countries that has caused US production to lose in places it should have had big advantages.
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that's a myth. Despite lost cost of manufacturing overseas, items are STILL marked up exponentially in our market. Do you think it really cost them $699 to make that iPhone? Korean cars cost the same as American cars too. Unions may have their faults, but this isn't one of them.
 
Azhar said:
suit yourself, they were examples. There's a lot of regulation-supporting Democratic and Independents out there that wants to put Wall Street and Big Oil in their places. That's why we're an oligarchy, not a plutocracy. Not to mention the increasing numbers of what the right likes to call activist Federal judges.

The wealthy can only push for policy changes if they find the right leverage. Even on the left - see insurance companies having a hand in the ACA, and General Mills pushing for the Monsanto Protection Act. No party is immune to the influence of the wealthy, but the wealthy still don't have total control for us to be a plutocracy.
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And the system of two-party dictatorship in which both parties leaderships are nothing but corporate prostitutes insures such things will never happen.

Bernie Sanders has about as much influence in congress as a homeless person would.
 
Just goes so show how you don't understand any of this at all, and that is why we lose the jobs. Profit margins need to exist, second no matter how much you mark something up if another company produces the same product for less they will have more money to advertise or out compete you in some way. Third most of the time ignorant people don't have a clue what kind of cost structure is involved in getting something up and running. microprocessor fabs are multibillion dollar investments you don't risk that kind of investment if you aren't going to have a high profit margin payoff.

Heres a simple question if you know so well. If there is so much profit, and its all so easy how come worker don't just create co-ops and produce the product here and reap those huge profits for themselves?
 
Again, as was ALWAYS the case with GM/Ford etc and dealerships .... and this goes back to Tucker ....

It is all a VIOLATION of the Interstate Commerce Clause, period.

No one has ever fought it since Tucker got screwed.

Not that Tesla isn't junk and Musk is a psycho wackjob, but still I stand up for their constitutional right to sell their perfectly legal shit.
 
Extreme temps also shorten the lifespan of the batteries. That's the main concern. They are a rather large part of the price of the vehicle to be replacing in half the time.

Zarathustra[H];1041180471 said:
Meh,

Extreme cold DOES reduce range rather significantly, but most people commute 30 miles or less each way to work, so it's not THAT relevant.
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lol @ banning a seller, like telling samsung they are no longer allowed to sell TV's in your state. Good news is these kind of tactics always backfire. All this did was just further enrage people and raise distrust in their gov't and corporate lobbying and raise awareness. Even the most dimwitted individuals know whats happening here, and it doesnt help their case that car dealers are one of the most hated businesses on earth. Tesla will find a way, and when they do it will be locked in and be much more detrimental to dealers than it is now. They probably should have just ignored this and hoped that people wouldnt really care for Tesla that much, now they've simply shown their cards at how utterly terrified they are of Tesla, which will give pause to anyone who stops to study the situation and wonder why.
 
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