Designing the silent-cool-hardcode-gaming SFF case: is it really that hard?

susdu

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True SFF gaming's first principle should be about fitting high end components without compromises of any kind. Only when this stage is accomplished you can seek to minimize unused space, create airflow path and maintain silent operation. It seems most manufacturers do this the other way around these days if at all.

I don't think Steam machines style cases is the direction we should be going. Cramming a GPU inside a console size case doesn't qualify as a decent gaming rig in my book. Maybe I'm a bit of old-school but I think CPU should have a decent chunk of metal on top of it so it can run silent and cool at low and high temps. PSU would be top grade ATX and shouldn't even be a noise factor in the case, unlike SFX PSU's which are lightyears away in terms of performance and noise.

Any storage solution should be SSD only. I don't need 3TB on a gaming rig that houses an OS and a couple of games. Plus hearing that plate/disk spinning feels like the 90's as in the more general view, I believe optical and magnetic media is dead anyway.

Last but not least is the silent-and-cool aspect which works well on MATX and above case variations but seems to be more of a challenge in the MITX domain, mainly due to the notion to minimize size first and ask quesitons later. I think size should not be downscaled in the expense of cooling and noise levels, especially when sitting in the living room. There is also the not-so-rational-but-acceptable thought among hardware fans that hardware has to be respected. Making it whine and run at 80c just to say you can game max settings with a 10L case is the classic definition of disrespect.

Anyway, this is how I convey the ultimate case:

1. MITX
2. 165mm CPU clearance (tower cooler)
3. 320mm GPU
4. modular ATX PSU up to 180mm (SFX too noisy)
5. no ODD crap. 2 SSD's 1 HDD max (ditching the HDD is fine by me).
6. will be placed in a AV rack/shelf/drawer in the living room
along with other components , so front to back airflow (3 120mm fans)
7. no taller that 21-22cm (needs to fit in the rack)
8. sub 20L

Something along the lines of the node 304, just 2-3cm wider to fix the PSU/GPU conflict and mount 2 120's in front would be considered close to perfect. I think I'll pay top dollar (300$+) for such a thing.

I know that this is my perspective on the subject, this is an open discussion.
 
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I guess everyone's priorities are different. I personally am willing to take compromises if it means the case is super small and still fits a nice gpu. I guess silence, temps and multiple hard drives come second for me.

But I can still see that for some people those are necessary!
 
There are a couple issues I see with your suggested specs:

  1. The Node 304 is 19.6L already - increasing the width 2-3cm puts it well over 20L
  2. The Node 304 has two 92mm fans up front; changing those to 120mm fans would increase its current height from 210mm to 230mm+

I think a more conventional layout for the PSU is going to be better if front-to-back airflow is what you're after.
 
Open discussion? What is the idea here?

I read: you want a case that fits your list of requirements without compromise and you are willing to pay $300 for it.

Do you want to find someone to make that case for you? What if $300 can't be achieved, which of your 8 points would get the axe first?

You write your own opinion but your wording is like you are seeking consensus. Are you looking for only like-minded people to respond, or are you happy for people to list their own top 8?
 
There is also the not-so-rational-but-acceptable thought among hardware fans that hardware has to be respected. Making it whine and run at 80c just to say you can game max settings with a 10L case is the classic definition of disrespect.
Remember that Silicon is not magic. If you heat it above the breakdown temperature for it;s current operating voltage then you get tunneling and a destroyed chip. Any heating below this has no ill effect. Unlike NAND, chips do not 'wear down' through use, and being hot (below the threshold of damage) is not in any way reducing the lifespan. The throttle/shutdown threshold temperature set in modern CPUs/GPUs is fairly conservative (to account for local hotspots), meaning: If your CPU is not throttling then it is sufficiently cool. Running at 80°C at load is no worse than running at 35°C at load.
 
There are a couple issues I see with your suggested specs:

  1. The Node 304 is 19.6L already - increasing the width 2-3cm puts it well over 20L
  2. The Node 304 has two 92mm fans up front; changing those to 120mm fans would increase its current height from 210mm to 230mm+

I think a more conventional layout for the PSU is going to be better if front-to-back airflow is what you're after.

I think you're right, the 304 idea just came up without any serious thought. However, In our imperfect world I believe 1-2 additional liters is a small price to pay to perfect the case. Switching to 120 doesnt necessarly mean higher case as they could be positioned lower.

Open discussion? What is the idea here?

I read: you want a case that fits your list of requirements without compromise and you are willing to pay $300 for it.

Do you want to find someone to make that case for you? What if $300 can't be achieved, which of your 8 points would get the axe first?

You write your own opinion but your wording is like you are seeking consensus. Are you looking for only like-minded people to respond, or are you happy for people to list their own top 8?

I sense bitterness in your words. I didn't make a schedule and this is not a planned conference with defined subjects. Just wanted to spill out my thoughts and hear what other people had to say.
 
I think you're right, the 304 idea just came up without any serious thought. However, In our imperfect world I believe 1-2 additional liters is a small price to pay to perfect the case. Switching to 120 doesnt necessarly mean higher case as they could be positioned lower.

I don't know if you've seen the Ncase M1 thread, but with flipping that on it's side, removing the fan/radiator bracket, going dow to 2 PCIe slots and adding a few inches here and there you can achieve everything you're after within the 20L limit, Just. However I am not sure there would be a market for it. If you take a look at mATX HTPC cases, for instance Silverstones Grandia Series, you could probably fit it in your AV rack. The only compromise would be limiting your CPU cooler height (there are still a lot to choose from) and volume.

On another note, given the trend of more and more power efficient chips, I absolutly think the steam-machine form factor is the way to go.
 
This is a familiar concept. However, 80c is always louder than 35c, much louder.

Actually it's the other way, given that there is adequate ventilation to beign with, low temps are usually the result of running the fans faster. I purposely set the CPU fan profile in my M1 build to run quietly at the expense of temps.

Anyway, I mocked it up and you won't be able to keep all of your wishlist and get much below 20L

susdo_mockup_14-10-17.png
 
I don't know if you've seen the Ncase M1 thread, but with flipping that on it's side, removing the fan/radiator bracket, going dow to 2 PCIe slots and adding a few inches here and there you can achieve everything you're after within the 20L limit, Just. However I am not sure there would be a market for it. If you take a look at mATX HTPC cases, for instance Silverstones Grandia Series, you could probably fit it in your AV rack. The only compromise would be limiting your CPU cooler height (there are still a lot to choose from) and volume.

On another note, given the trend of more and more power efficient chips, I absolutly think the steam-machine form factor is the way to go.

I own the Grandia GD08. worst 200$ I've ever spent. Airflow is terrible, too much wasted space. M1 in an horizontal configuration (and design) would be great, just need to get rid of the SFX and add width for CPU coolers.

Actually it's the other way, given that there is adequate ventilation to beign with, low temps are usually the result of running the fans faster. I purposely set the CPU fan profile in my M1 build to run quietly at the expense of temps.

Anyway, I mocked it up and you won't be able to keep all of your wishlist and get much below 20L

I think it's feasible at 22-23L. Look at the fan position on the 304:
2-1280x1024.jpg


Too high, could be lowered 2-3 cm and then dual 120's would only induce 2-3 width addition plus solving the psu limitation requirement. If only Fractal would listen to me :)
 
Anyway, I mocked it up and you won't be able to keep all of your wishlist and get much below 20L
One thing I'd add: 170mm isn't nearly enough for a 165mm tall cooler; 25mm over the required cooler height is pretty much the minimum, so about 190mm. Under certain circumstances, you can go a little less than that, but you do make some sacrifices (e.g., the bottom of the PCI brackets extend past the side/bottom of the case).

I think it's feasible at 22-23L. Look at the fan position on the 304:
-

Too high, could be lowered 2-3 cm and then dual 120's would only induce 2-3 width addition plus solving the psu limitation requirement. If only Fractal would listen to me :)
So part of the fans would be blocked by the PSU. That's an option, I guess. It does mean mounting a radiator to the front fans is completely out, though, which would limit its appeal.
 
I you want a 165mm cooler clearance, it means at least 200mm case width.
If you want a 320mm GPU, that means at least 335mm case depth.
With a dual slot cooler and a full ATX PSU placed conventionally, you need at least 315mm case height.

That gives you at least 21.1lts, and due to saving offs here and there, the case would have to be simple. So, forget about elegant top, front, or bottom covers. Similar to Rosewill Legacy U3, probably only one side cover would be removable...
 
So part of the fans would be blocked by the PSU. That's an option, I guess. It does mean mounting a radiator to the front fans is completely out, though, which would limit its appeal.

I think Aibohphobia did a better psu placement in that mockup, better psu fan intake via grilled cover and no blocking. This config is better than the 304, just needs more height as you mentioned for cooler clearance.

I you want a 165mm cooler clearance, it means at least 200mm case width.
If you want a 320mm GPU, that means at least 335mm case depth.
With a dual slot cooler and a full ATX PSU placed conventionally, you need at least 315mm case height.

That gives you at least 21.1lts, and due to saving offs here and there, the case would have to be simple. So, forget about elegant top, front, or bottom covers. Similar to Rosewill Legacy U3, probably only one side cover would be removable...

My wishlist is for the perfect case. As there is no such thing as perfect, I think adding a few L while keeping the same aspect ratio is the best way to go.

This thread makes me want to design my own case, if I had the slightest clue about what it takes.
 
One thing I'd add: 170mm isn't nearly enough for a 165mm tall cooler; 25mm over the required cooler height is pretty much the minimum, so about 190mm.

You're right, I accidentally put 145mm instead of 165mm for cooler clearance :p


This thread makes me want to design my own case, if I had the slightest clue about what it takes.

Plenty of examples in this sub-forum, the M1 being the most prominent.

I suggest starting with SketchUp if you're not familiar with any CAD software since it's free, easy to use, and there's plenty of computer components other people have made to populate your model.
 
Although, I'm all in favor of big tower coolers (and the cases that fit them). I really don't see the need for them as I used to.

Logic as follows:
1) Newer processors (sandy bridge) + seem to idle quite well.
2) Since they idle quite well, during non-intensive usage their thermal requirements are quite low.
3) If you are a gamer, then most of your noise/power usage may be related to your video card.
4) So you merely have to keep the noise profile for other components around your video card, at load.
5) There are sfxs psu's being released that utilize 120mm fans, and they should be tolerable in comparison to the 80mm sfx psu's.

As such, I'm actually surprised that there aren't more steamish cases. But generally, I'm disappointed in most case designs, that seem to be driven more by the marketing department and not engineers.

We tend to lust for the lowest temps, instead of shooting for temps that have no adverse effect on long term stability, and doing so under the most comfortable noise profile. We also tend to measure in absolute terms even for sound, forgetting that our hearing is not linear. As a consequence, most review sites only focus on the easily interpreted data, because that's what drives webpage views.

I imagine that the ncase/steam machine will probably do the trick, but it would be lost in a rack.
Alternative, you may just have to go the scratch built route.
 
How to make an SFF case: just move everything outside the case and disregard peripherals when counting volume.

mac-pro-2012-vs-2013-spoof.jpg
 
I own the Grandia GD08. worst 200$ I've ever spent.

I stand corrected:)

M1 in an horizontal configuration (and design) would be great, just need to get rid of the SFX and add width for CPU coolers.

Personally i think SFX PSU is one of those compromises that is necessary for SFF to keep evolving. You're going to have to work hard to come up with an ITX build that have power requirements exceeding 600W. I see your point with noise though, but there will be compromises eiter way. Going small, you have to compromise (a bit) on noise. And going for silence and ATX PSU compromises on the "SFFiness".

How to make an SFF case: just move everything outside the case and disregard peripherals when counting volume.

:D
 
Personally i think SFX PSU is one of those compromises that is necessary for SFF to keep evolving. You're going to have to work hard to come up with an ITX build that have power requirements exceeding 600W. I see your point with noise though, but there will be compromises eiter way. Going small, you have to compromise (a bit) on noise. And going for silence and ATX PSU compromises on the "SFFiness".

If Silverstone pulls through on the SX500-LG and it's noticeably quieter than the 600W at load I think we can have our cake and eat it too, and it's only a little bigger than standard SFX :)
 
If Silverstone pulls through on the SX500-LG and it's noticeably quieter than the 600W at load I think we can have our cake and eat it too, and it's only a little bigger than standard SFX :)

Yes. If it turns out the way we hope, its going to sit right in the sweetspot.
 
80c is always louder than 35c, much louder.

No. You are confusing temperature with heat output.

Noise comes from fan RPM, size, fan design and any impedance to airflow, in conjunction with ambient temperatures, heat production and airflow (different from impedance).

ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL (same load/heat output, airflow, fan, heatsink, etc.) something such as a CPU or GPU running at 80°C will be quieter than the same thing running at 35°C, because it takes more airflow (which generally results in more noise production) to achieve lower temperatures.

My wishlist is for the perfect case. As there is no such thing as perfect, I think adding a few L while keeping the same aspect ratio is the best way to go.

From your first post: "without compromises of any kind."

I think you just compromised.

Welcome to the real world.

How to make an SFF case: just move everything outside the case and disregard peripherals when counting volume.

I know, right? I've had arguments (dumb? yes) with people who wanted to make super small boxes by moving the PSU out to a big brick, like the little Alienware.

Personally i think SFX PSU is one of those compromises that is necessary for SFF to keep evolving. You're going to have to work hard to come up with an ITX build that have power requirements exceeding 600W

I have been a fan of SFX PSUs for over a decade, starting when I found a case back around 2002 or so that was like the Athenatech A100, but in aluminum. I still have two of them!

The 600W SFX should be able to run just about any graphics card that uses a single PCIe slot, with the possible exceptions of the R9 295x2 and Titan Z.

A system with a GTX Titan Black should be able to easily run on the 450W and 500W units.

A system with a GTX 980 can just about run on the 300W units.
 
Honestly, I don't think anything above 15L is small form factor at all. My current standard is that it has to at least be 1-3 liters from the size of the SG05 or SG06. Furthermore the whole point of SFF is downsizing yet maintaining similar performance at the same size of bigger machines. You are already compromising on performance due to the mitx form factor as it does not allow you to have sli or crossfire nor any other additional add-ons. The only things you can probably change are

1: quality of components depending upon current industry "consumer" standards that you can buy. This is moving in the right direction btw by "cramming" more into less space and being more efficient regarding performance per volume. You also see in this in the "itx" versions of gpus from gpu vendors like asus.

2: cooling, dependent on components :note your idea of a "chunk" of metal seems to be a bit outdated for SFF as the focus should really be on efficiency. I would think that liquid cooling would be your go to with your emphasis on performance and noise.

Edit: If you are already going to start making compromises on some of your points. I suggest the SG09 or 10. I know it does not fit your height requirement nor your front to back airflow design but it does fit the most of your criteria in regards to no compromise and adequate cooling.
 
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Why do we all have short 3 in. steamboxes or cases like the Element Q. We need a case like the EQ (abit taller 5.5in.), but a 2 slot version, just slap a slim ODD in & a cool sys I would love. I want a short case I am not looking at the 5 low profile GPUs or single slots I can fit in the case.
 
Actually it's the other way, given that there is adequate ventilation to beign with, low temps are usually the result of running the fans faster. I purposely set the CPU fan profile in my M1 build to run quietly at the expense of temps.

Anyway, I mocked it up and you won't be able to keep all of your wishlist and get much below 20L

susdo_mockup_14-10-17.png

With this layout though, I would push above 20L and go mATX. It wouldn't add more that the extra width of two expansion slots, the depth is already there, and with the PSU out of the way you don't need the space for anything else.
 
WoW you nailed it.

At the moment i am waiting for the Raijintek Metis. Graphiccards beyond 18cm should fit.

But i am not satisfied: i build my own mitx case.

At the moment i am at 32cm length, 20,5cm height and 27cm depth.
 
With this layout though, I would push above 20L and go mATX. It wouldn't add more that the extra width of two expansion slots, the depth is already there, and with the PSU out of the way you don't need the space for anything else.

It would have to be 26.5L+ to support mATX.

Going SFX/SFX-L PSU only can drop the size down to a little under 17L:

susdo-mockup-air_14-10-18.jpg
 
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