Damaged Goods, Return/Refund/Chargeback Time Frame

Given the rash amount of threads about Amazon Payments chargebacks and how the users should be banned, I find it interesting on the other side of the situation with a recent purchase that arrived damaged.

If you received damaged goods after using Paypal, you can open a Paypal dispute within 30 days and see how responsive and cooperative the seller is.

With Amazon Payments, I am unaware of any actions for recourse other than a chargeback. Thus, what is the appropriate amount of time before resorting to a chargeback? I recently received an item via USPS that was rather remarkably beat up, and the seller deems it appropriate for me to give him 90 days to sort out the insurance issue with the post office. I proposed that 14 days was more reasonable.

Where's the stopping point? Is there a community consensus on such matters?

Actually what I told you was that I wanted pictures of the damaged item after you refused to take the item to the Post Office and said you would wait to have them pick it up. The 90 days issue came up after you started threatening to put in a chargeback. That's how long it could take to settle a chargeback completely. I've repeated this several times but you aren't following along.

here are all the pictures you've provided so far:










I got those pictures on Monday. I put in the damaged package claim with USPS that evening. If you bothered calling to check the status based on the tracking number you'd know that. Since then you've sent me something like 17 PMs harassing me about this.

Like I said, if you are in a hurry for a refund, take the package to the post office and once I can verify it is in their custody I would refund. As to how long it will take for them to come pick it up? Might be a while.

I TOLD you to use Paypal after you freaked out and couldn't understand what an Amazon Payments alias was. You sent it Amazon Payments anyway.

The seller should refund the money once the USPS tells him it has everything it needs to process the claim successfully. By that I mean the USPS gets the goods/information from the receiver so that a successful claim can be made.

For all I know, you took the 450D out, put another crappy PC case in there and then ran over it with your car. That package is so badly torn it is not acceptable for shipment and NO POST OFFICE would accept it. Thus I didn't do anything wrong, you had BAD LUCK and you should cooperate with the insurance claim or you get nothing.

WOW I have been shipping parts for 15 years and thats one of the worst things I have ever seen! It does look like it was run over or maybe kicked by an NFL kicker?

Bluesun311 said:

For all I know, you took the 450D out, put another crappy PC case in there and then ran over it with your car. That package is so badly torn it is not acceptable for shipment and NO POST OFFICE would accept it. Thus I didn't do anything wrong, you had BAD LUCK and you should cooperate with the insurance claim or you get nothing.

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Personally, I think it's wrong of you to assume the seller damaged it purposefully and I see another user added to my DNT list because of your attitude. I've had packages arrive in worse condition than that both as a seller and buyer. The carriers don't care what condition the packages are in, they just deliver them.

The box is trashed, but I can't see form the pics what the case is like. I agree with the seller here. Take a breath, calm down, and lets see what happens shall we? If it is "destroyed" and the insurance will cover it then lets be adults and wait for that to happen. Yes, it could take time. But that's a risk we take buying from people and not companies who have tons of these waiting to get shipped. The buyer didn't swap cases or run it over, the seller didn't ship a destroyed case. Are all of you online so quick to judge/think the worst? Come on guys.

Gillbot said:

Personally, I think it's wrong of you to assume the seller damaged it purposefully and I see another user added to my DNT list because of your attitude. I've had packages arrive in worse condition than that both as a seller and buyer. The carriers don't care what condition the packages are in, they just deliver them.

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Harassment through PMs may be the reason for his current attitude.

The seller has taken a pro-active roll in this situation

I would calm down and proceed with getting USPS to handle this! That is after all, what the insurance is for.

Wow. That really escalated quickly. Given the number of [fallacious] comments, I will attempt to break things down into bite size morsels with the quotes tag.

For starters,

I spoke entirely in generalities. There was no mention of the other user by name, nor even the item in question. The seller decided to bring that into here. My question was, and still remains, given all of the animosity towards one or two individuals filing erroneous chargebacks, when is the appropriate time to do so? Paypal disputes must be opened within 30 days (last I checked). This is the crux, and entirety, of the disagreement between the buyer, me, and the seller (you can figure it out by looking above). He says I should give up 90 days to sort things out. I said 14 days is appropriate.

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Comments I disagree with:

Bluesun311 said:

Actually what I told you was that I wanted pictures of the damaged item after you refused to take the item to the Post Office and said you would wait to have them pick it up. The 90 days issue came up after you started threatening to put in a chargeback. That's how long it could take to settle a chargeback completely. I've repeated this several times but you aren't following along.

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Never was there mention of additional photos of the damaged item. I asked how long until waiting on USPS is no longer my responsibility. I proposed 14 days. You seemed to insist on 90.

Bluesun311 said:

I got those pictures on Monday...

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Sunday.

Bluesun311 said:

If you bothered to check the status based on the tracking number...

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You provided no tracking number for a claim. The initial shipping tracking number provides no such information that I am aware of.

Bluesun311 said:

something like 17 PMS harassing me about this...

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Six actually, or only five you consider me repeating the question about how long ought I wait on USPS.

Bluesun311 said:

Take it to USPS...

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You have never said that if I were to take the item to USPS, you would issue a refund. Regardless, I am unaware of my ability to simply drop a package off at USPS and say there is an associated insurance claim, can you hold this. Would welcome outside feedback.

Bluesun311 said:

couldn't understand what an Amazon Payments Alias was

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I wanted your email address, not a created moniker to send funds to

Bluesun311 said:

Thus I didn't do anything wrong, you had BAD LUCK and you should cooperate with the insurance claim or you get nothing.

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This is not about you having done anything wrong with the packaging. It is about it being the seller's responsibility for an item to get from point A to point B in a timely and safe manner. Bad things happen, and thus insurance. I am, and have been, fine with providing some time for such insurance to come through. That said, no, I am not going to wait three months on the insurance claim to potentially be processed. I think it is outlandish for you to expect a buyer to sit by and wait for 90 days before a charge back. Thus this thread.

And the idea that "I should cooperate with the insurance claim or you <sic> get nothing" is laughable.

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How about a refund after USPS has items

Dookey said:

refund after USPS has everything

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Not against getting a refund; seller said not just USPS having items, but giving up to 90 days for the insurance claim to come through. Later, on a few occasions, it was implied that if insurance says no claim, then I am out the money.

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Regarding the photos and such:

The box was roughed up upon arrival. I asked the seller if he would like me to take the box to USPS and open in front of them in case any internal damage existed to help with insurance. He said no, and that he was hopeful that it was just the outside of the box. I opened it a few minutes later to find the frame of the case so bent that it did not easily come out of the packaging. Thus began the message exchange on 9/14/2014.

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Actual message exchange thus far:

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

What's the update on the insurance claim?

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Sorry, was out of town yesterday; just got a chance to open it. Don't think it will buff out.

I didn't bother removing it from the package; just cut the top open and took a look. Images are here in the same album.

Bluesun311 said:

gizmo said:

Case arrived today, I think. The box is just short of destroyed; here's a link to an Imgur album Normally I'd open the box up and check for damage, but a laptop that I bought about three days ago also arrived from USPS with an awful amount of damage (both the box and the laptop).

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How'd it going? Get a chance to inspect it yet? Hope it was OK. Little dicey from the photos but I was hopeful there wasn't any damage. The side panels were kind of annoying to get closed but other than that it was the best mid tower I've ever had.

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http://imgur.com/a/LdNoh#0

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Yah I can just file the claim online and then if they want to inspect the item (they may not even bother having you bring it in) I can refund once it's been dropped off to them. Really sorry. Lesson learned I should have done it UPS. It was packaged perfectly well but that looks like a special project of some dick who doesn't like Corsair or something bizarre like that. Maybe just a freak accident.

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http://imgur.com/a/LdNoh#0

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I'll definitely let you know as soon as I hear back about it. I put in the claim last night.

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I would greatly appreciate getting a date set for which waiting on USPS is no longer my responsibility. I can store the case in its current condition for a few days, but I do not want to find myself waiting until next week to hear whether USPS is going to honor any insurance for the damage.

Thanks

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I'd probably try to get in touch with your post office about it. They haven't told me anything except they received my claim.

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My post office has nothing to do with the matter. It came from your post office through a routing center to my home.

Are you implying this is on me to get sorted out?

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First off, your post office does have everything to do with the matter if they delivered that box damaged so badly. That's very strange if they did that and I'm surprised you haven't inquired with your local PO about how that happened.

Second, for all I know you received the case, removed it, ran over the box with your car and are trying to get me to refund you even though you have the case. Look at it from my point of view. I'm not a eBay power seller I have never dealt with a situation like this before. I told you I thought you needed to take the case to the post office and you said you would wait to have them pick it up. That's fine by me but I can't make the post office do anything and I'm not refunding you based on the photos you sent and you still have the item. No one would, especially not after you are sending angry emails barely 2 days since you sent me the "proof of damage" photos which are pretty much useless since they are of a damaged box and no case visible. My responsibility was to ship the case and I did immediately. Then I filed a damage claim on your behalf like a Korean monitor seller would. It's been 2 days. Not 2 weeks.

Like I said, I'll refund you when the item gets back into the hands of the USPS. Even if you had payed with PayPal it would make no difference you'd still have to sit on your hands and wait for a refund. It wouldn't be done instantly just because you had bad luck and you can get in touch with me easily. I'll give you my phone number if you want and we can talk it over man to man.

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No, that is in no capacity correct regarding a post office.

That you would imply I damaged the case is laughable. I showed you photos, still hosted on Imgur, of the box in the condition it was received. That I may have "received it, removed the case, ran over the box with my car, and then trying to..." is absurd given that you have photos with the box still sealed.

USPS insurance is abhorrent. It is your responsibility as a seller to get an item to the buyer in the condition described. It is not the buyer's responsibility for insurance, for ensuring delivery, or anything in between.

The only item I questioned is that I wanted a specific date by which we were not going to sit on our hands any longer; you responded with,

I'd probably try to get in touch with your post office about it. They haven't told me anything except they received my claim.

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That still does not answer my question. If you have something to say regarding such a date, please pass it along. Otherwise I will consider this having gone south and let my credit card company tend to it.

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As I said, you should ask the post office what to do if you are in a giant hurry to have the issue resolved. Since you are considering a chargeback lets go with 90 days. That's how long it could take for you to get your money back with your cc company. They will want to know where the item is and what I asked you to do with it of course. With the USPS claim thing you would get your refund from me once I can verify you've returned the actual item to the USPS for inspection regardless of their findings. Presumably that might take a week? Idk like I said never happened to me before. Has it happened to you? Did you refund up front and just hope the person holds up their end? I'm just trying to get the item taken care of. I don't actually think you are trying to pull a scam I think the package got treated like garbage by the postal service. Then again, I don't know you from Adam.

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90 days is not going to happen, and if that is how long it takes via your credit card, get a better account.

Heading to TTT and will see what the consensus is there. I gravitate towards 14 days, but we will see.

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Haha this should be good. You're going to ruin your rep because you're too stubborn to take the case to the post office? Have fun with that.

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I am yet to hear anything about taking the case to the post office as you have not heard back about the claim you filed. I also am yet to receive any sort of reference number for the aforementioned claim.

You asked me to wait 3 months before providing a refund? Simply not going to happen. If that has become the norm around [H], then I have no interest in participating anyway.

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You're not really firmly rooted in reality, sir. I told you to contact your post office about getting the item back in their hands and you flipped your lid. It's not just H you're looking at here. I've got your heat ware pulled up and I'm about to ding you if you don't quit harassing me. Show me pictures of the damaged case, take the case to the post office, and quit being so dramatic. 90 days is standard charge back total processing time. You call in a cb you'll have your money instantly, then they may take the money back out if you aren't entitled (eg you kept the item). You said you could store the case a few days but not til next week. Fine. Why don't you stop worrying about it for a fee dats and see what the damn post office says instead of making a nuclear disaster over it.

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http://imgur.com/a/LdNoh#0

Tsumi said:

Harassment through PMs may be the reason for his current attitude.

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Could be, but the fact remains the item is damaged. I've said it a million times, there is risk in SELLING AND BUYING. this is the risk in selling and I would have issues a refund immediately. There is no reason for a seller to demand things, even with a seller that causes you grief.

FrEaKy said:

The seller has taken a pro-active roll in this situation

I would calm down and proceed with getting USPS to handle this! That is after all, what the insurance is for.

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I agree, but the seller needs to wait for usps, not the buyer. IMHO, a refund should be issued.

Gillbot said:

Could be, but the fact remains the item is damaged. I've said it a million times, there is risk in SELLING AND BUYING. this is the risk in selling and I would have issues a refund immediately. There is no reason for a seller to demand things, even with a seller that causes you grief.


I agree, but the seller needs to wait for usps, not the buyer. IMHO, a refund should be issued.

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If the buyer does not cooperate with the seller to ensure the claim then the seller will not get his money back from insurance.

The seller made a mistake by not having the buyer open the package at the USPS location. It was obvious that there was most likely internal damage.

Overall this was a bad deal all around for both the buyer and seller.


Seller is going to have to make this right regardless. I hate USPS when it comes to shipping bulky items.

Aww, I see two members going on my naughty list.

Read your own PMs. This is in the 2nd one from blue, "Yah I can just file the claim online and then if they want to inspect the item (they may not even bother having you bring it in) I can refund once it's been dropped off to them." Sounds like he'd refund it as soon as you dropped it off with them. Him accusing you of damaging the item is bullshit though too. So you both get to go on the DNT.

Missing some context above I feel. I offered 14 days for this to get sorted out. I did not refuse to help get the item to USPS. I refused to allow 90 days for it to get sorted


24 business hours later, I haven't received any evidence of a claim being opened and have a seller requesting I give him 90 days to figure out the insurance, while implying and even directly stating that I am purposefully trying to rip him off by swapping a case and then running over the box with my car. All while I messages him prior to opening the package, immediately messaging after opening the package, and providing photos of the package still sealed with the damaged sides and corners.

Couple that with being told I will be given negative heat.

Thus my question about what is a reasonable timeframe for a chargeback. I'm not waiting 90 days; of this I am certain. If I get a claim number or am instructed by USPS to provide it for pickup, that's fine. But the proposed notion that I am to wait up to three months - this doesn't fly with me. If someone doesn't want to deal with me for this sentiment, fine.

Jorona said:

Aww, I see two members going on my naughty list.

Read your own PMs. This is in the 2nd one from blue, "Yah I can just file the claim online and then if they want to inspect the item (they may not even bother having you bring it in) I can refund once it's been dropped off to them." Sounds like he'd refund it as soon as you dropped it off with them. Him accusing you of damaging the item is bullshit though too. So you both get to go on the DNT.

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There was no accusation. I said "for all I know". Not "you did this".

There is no claim number as I said the claim is connected to the tracking number.

I don't have time for this I have a four year old to look after and it makes it hard to be a good father when you're getting constant angry PMs after it's been only 2 days since I was able to put the claim in.

Gillbot said:

Could be, but the fact remains the item is damaged. I've said it a million times, there is risk in SELLING AND BUYING. this is the risk in selling and I would have issues a refund immediately. There is no reason for a seller to demand things, even with a seller that causes you grief.


I agree, but the seller needs to wait for usps, not the buyer. IMHO, a refund should be issued.

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You're always telling everyone to issue refunds immediately. You must not be too concerned about getting scammed.

This guy is a flat out liar making up quotes from nowhere and I'm not issuing a refund period until usps gives me the go ahead. All he has to do now is rough up the 450d and take pictures.

I don't have time to post the whole conversation I got a four year old to look after.

Bluesun311 said:

There was no accusation. I said "for all I know". Not "you did this".

There is no claim number as I said the claim is connected to the tracking number.

I don't have time for this I have a four year old to look after and it makes it hard to be a good father when you're getting constant angry PMs after it's been only 2 days since I was able to put the claim in.

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Perhaps if you dont have time for this you should stop selling stuff in our forums.

Its your responsibility to get the item to the buyer, that did not happen so now its time to refund his money and collect the insurance.

Crosshairs said:

Perhaps if you dont have time for this you should stop selling stuff in our forums.

Its your responsibility to get the item to the buyer, that did not happen so now its time to refund his money and collect the insurance.

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I will do that crosshairs. The part about not selling to your community anymore. You should read the thread before throwing your weight around. I'm not refunding while dude has the item and you can't make me either. You are a mod not a state prosecuter

Bluesun311 said:

You're always telling everyone to issue refunds immediately. You must not be too concerned about getting scammed.

This guy is a flat out liar making up quotes from nowhere and I'm not issuing a refund period until usps gives me the go ahead. All he has to do now is rough up the 450d and take pictures.

I don't have time to post the whole conversation I got a four year old to look after.

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What happens if USPS denies the claim? Will you still issue a refund or only if the honor the claim?

Bluesun311 said:

I will do that crosshairs. The part about not selling to your community anymore. You should read the thread before throwing your weight around. I'm not refunding while dude has the item and you can't make me either. You are a mod not a state prosecuter

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But he can ban you then you would be even more screwed over then you are now. I don't recommend talking to mods like that.

Bluesun311 said:

I will do that crosshairs. The part about not selling to your community anymore. You should read the thread before throwing your weight around. I'm not refunding while dude has the item and you can't make me either. You are a mod not a state prosecuter

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I read the thread...2 times....and then I made a comment.

You are right though, I cannot make you refund him,but I'm pretty sure you will lose a charge back.


anyway, you no longer have access to our FS section, maybe in the future if you find the time to deal with these issues, we can talk about getting back in.

Bluesun311 said:

You're always telling everyone to issue refunds immediately. You must not be too concerned about getting scammed.

This guy is a flat out liar making up quotes from nowhere and I'm not issuing a refund period until usps gives me the go ahead. All he has to do now is rough up the 450d and take pictures.

I don't have time to post the whole conversation I got a four year old to look after.

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I'm not worried about getting scammed. My rep is more important to me than the crap I sell. I'm an honest person and I stand behind everything I do. My word is all I have and if someone feels the need to rip me off, karma will get them in the end. That's the problem today, people don't care about their rep since they are more about the money. Plus, I'm a lot more careful who I deal with. Yes, I've been ripped off before. No I don't care. If you can't afford to lose the money, ONLY sell locally and deal with cash and no shipping.

Crosshairs said:

Perhaps if you dont have time for this you should stop selling stuff in our forums.

Its your responsibility to get the item to the buyer, that did not happen so now its time to refund his money and collect the insurance.

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Yep, crosshairs has it covered.

gizmo, I hope you can get that negative removed as the retaliatory feedback that it is.

Not that it'd make much difference to me "take it from whence it comes..."

Crazy Chuckster said:

WOW I have been shipping parts for 15 years and thats one of the worst things I have ever seen! It does look like it was run over or maybe kicked by an NFL kicker?

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I am quoting myself just to say that when I said that the item looked "run over" I wasnt trying to imply that its was done on purpose by the buyer, I just said it in a generality.

Also gizmo you should try and contact heatware as others have mentioned to see if you can get the negative removed.

Gillbot said:

I'm not worried about getting scammed. My rep is more important to me than the crap I sell. I'm an honest person and I stand behind everything I do. My word is all I have and if someone feels the need to rip me off, karma will get them in the end. That's the problem today, people don't care about their rep since they are more about the money. Plus, I'm a lot more careful who I deal with. Yes, I've been ripped off before. No I don't care. If you can't afford to lose the money, ONLY sell locally and deal with cash and no shipping.

Yep, crosshairs has it covered.

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Heatware rep is a joke. I saw people scam and run with 200+ feedback. I was sold overheating video card and posted retaliatory feedback and heatware did not remove it. On top of it, I was out $200. That's what I was saying till then, my reputation is important. But people take advantage of it.

This happened to me twice in the past and I end up removing my negative feedback in exchange the other party remove it as well. At the end of the day, it hurts the next person deal with that guy and get scammed or screwed.

I find it somewhat ironic that the only reason I opened this thread, particularly in the vague and general manner that I did, was to see what the market consensus was for appropriate use of a chargeback.

I wouldn't wait 90days. Your ability to open a dispute or charge back will have expired by then. 15? 25? I would give it that long and help out as possible/needed. The shipper (I said shipper, not seller.) was the one who damaged this in all likelihood here. I cant' believe heat is being left when the situation hasn't even been resolved yet. (and being banned from forums, name calling, etc.) So much for taking a breath.

4745454b said:

I wouldn't wait 90days. Your ability to open a dispute or charge back will have expired by then. 15? 25? I would give it that long and help out as possible/needed. The shipper (I said shipper, not seller.) was the one who damaged this in all likelihood here. I cant' believe heat is being left when the situation hasn't even been resolved yet. (and being banned from forums, name calling, etc.) So much for taking a breath.

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90 days is too long and 14 day is too short. I would give it a month which is reasonable. If it was fedex or USPS, claim processed fast. But USPS moves slow sometimes. Once they get the item, they say it would take 30-90 days. If they lost it, you cant even do the claim until hits to 30 days. Items like this also cost less when used fedex ground and comes with $100 auto insurance.

Purely for entertainment's sake [regarding USPS ability to deliver a large item] here is an additional photo. Again, I cannot physically remove the case without further destroying the box - would need to cut a side out or something as it is wedged in there very good now.

Just wanted to share my experience with working with Dave (bluesun311) over the last few months. He started messaging me here on [h] asking me questions about water cooling and I helped him over the next several weeks while he was putting his loop together. I spent dozens of hours coaching him on the basics of liquid cooling and helping him design his loop. I thought we had struck up a healthy friendship. I even made him custom sleeved extensions to use in his build, and to repay the favor he sent me an aquacomputer filter for my loop. Eventually he wanted me to sleeve his stock cables, so I agreed to do it for dirt cheap. He would cover the sleeve ($75) and pay me $50 for labor. Shortly afterwards he got a 2nd aquaero because he thought incorrectly that his first one was broken. I told him he should return the 2nd aquaero for a refund, but he insisted I should have it and mailed it to me. I was really grateful about it so I offered to make him a full custom cable job instead of just sleeving his stock cables. I used the $50 he sent me for labor to order more 16awg wire and began working on the custom 24 pin. I wasn't able to find a full pinout for his power supply so I offered to pay him to ship his stock cables to me so I could use them as a template for the custom job. He agreed, and I thought all was well. That is, until last night when he called me. He told me he no longer wanted the custom cables, giving me a vague excuse about how he didn't "feel the love" with the PC building community anymore. It turns out he felt betrayed by me because I didn't come into this thread and stick up for him. Eventually he said he wanted a refund, but I told him I had spent all the $125 (plus more) on materials already and it would be better if I could just finish the job. He was adamant that he no longer wanted the cables, so he agreed to take the remaining sleeving supplies as a refund.

Today, I woke up to more angry private messages from him on OCN, as well as negative feedback on heatware. He even decided to file a dispute against me on PayPal. He's been sending death threats via PM against me and my father, as well as threatening to drive to Plano TX and assault Kyle Bennett. I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. I spent months being friendly, helpful, and cordial to bluesun311, and now he's trying his best to smear me online. Stay away from him at all costs, and to the mods: please don't restore his marketplace privileges. He really doesn't play well with others.

I apologize if this is the wrong place to put this, but I just wanted to warn others about him.

tl;dr

Bluesun311 paid me to sleeve his stock cables
I offered to do full cable job as a favor; he agrees
He changes his mind and doesn't want the cables
Sends me negative feedback and death threats, opens paypal dispute against me.

Update:

Just wanted to let everyone know bluesun311 apologized and fixed the negative feedback against me and closed the PayPal dispute. I feel pretty terrible about the entire situation, and wish I had done more to try and diffuse it. I know it doesn't change what happened with gillbot or the fact that bluesun is now banned, but I thought it was important to set the record straight. Hope everything gets worked out between bluesun311 and gillbot as well. Thanks guys.

TurK-FX said:

Heatware rep is a joke. I saw people scam and run with 200+ feedback. I was sold overheating video card and posted retaliatory feedback and heatware did not remove it. On top of it, I was out $200. That's what I was saying till then, my reputation is important. But people take advantage of it.

This happened to me twice in the past and I end up removing my negative feedback in exchange the other party remove it as well. At the end of the day, it hurts the next person deal with that guy and get scammed or screwed.

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Difference being, my rep runs deeper than heatware and yours does too. Many people that have been dealing online for a while are common names and many of us recognize them. THAT is worth more than anything. I don't put all my faith in heatware and no one else should either. Research the person you are dealing with buying or selling and do your homework, that's the safest thing and the best way to avoid being scammed.

failwheeldrive said:

Just wanted to share my experience with working with Dave (bluesun311) over the last few months. He started messaging me here on [h] asking me questions about water cooling and I helped him over the next several weeks while he was putting his loop together. I spent dozens of hours coaching him on the basics of liquid cooling and helping him design his loop. I thought we had struck up a healthy friendship. I even made him custom sleeved extensions to use in his build, and to repay the favor he sent me an aquacomputer filter for my loop. Eventually he wanted me to sleeve his stock cables, so I agreed to do it for dirt cheap. He would cover the sleeve ($75) and pay me $50 for labor. Shortly afterwards he got a 2nd aquaero because he thought incorrectly that his first one was broken. I told him he should return the 2nd aquaero for a refund, but he insisted I should have it and mailed it to me. I was really grateful about it so I offered to make him a full custom cable job instead of just sleeving his stock cables. I used the $50 he sent me for labor to order more 16awg wire and began working on the custom 24 pin. I wasn't able to find a full pinout for his power supply so I offered to pay him to ship his stock cables to me so I could use them as a template for the custom job. He agreed, and I thought all was well. That is, until last night when he called me. He told me he no longer wanted the custom cables, giving me a vague excuse about how he didn't "feel the love" with the PC building community anymore. It turns out he felt betrayed by me because I didn't come into this thread and stick up for him. Eventually he said he wanted a refund, but I told him I had spent all the $125 (plus more) on materials already and it would be better if I could just finish the job. He was adamant that he no longer wanted the cables, so he agreed to take the remaining sleeving supplies as a refund.

Today, I woke up to more angry private messages from him on OCN, as well as negative feedback on heatware. He even decided to file a dispute against me on PayPal. He's been sending death threats via PM against me and my father, as well as threatening to drive to Plano TX and assault Kyle Bennett. I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. I spent months being friendly, helpful, and cordial to bluesun311, and now he's trying his best to smear me online. Stay away from him at all costs, and to the mods: please don't restore his marketplace privileges. He really doesn't play well with others.

I apologize if this is the wrong place to put this, but I just wanted to warn others about him.

tl;dr

Bluesun311 paid me to sleeve his stock cables
I offered to do full cable job as a favor; he agrees
He changes his mind and doesn't want the cables
Sends me negative feedback and death threats, opens paypal dispute against me.

Click to expand...

Wow, that is bad. I take back my defense of him earlier.

As for the case... holy crap. What the heck did USPS do, drop it out of a plane?

Woww, this is speechless.....

failwheeldrive said:

Just wanted to share my experience with working with Dave (bluesun311) over the last few months. He started messaging me here on [h] asking me questions about water cooling and I helped him over the next several weeks while he was putting his loop together. I spent dozens of hours coaching him on the basics of liquid cooling and helping him design his loop. I thought we had struck up a healthy friendship. I even made him custom sleeved extensions to use in his build, and to repay the favor he sent me an aquacomputer filter for my loop. Eventually he wanted me to sleeve his stock cables, so I agreed to do it for dirt cheap. He would cover the sleeve ($75) and pay me $50 for labor. Shortly afterwards he got a 2nd aquaero because he thought incorrectly that his first one was broken. I told him he should return the 2nd aquaero for a refund, but he insisted I should have it and mailed it to me. I was really grateful about it so I offered to make him a full custom cable job instead of just sleeving his stock cables. I used the $50 he sent me for labor to order more 16awg wire and began working on the custom 24 pin. I wasn't able to find a full pinout for his power supply so I offered to pay him to ship his stock cables to me so I could use them as a template for the custom job. He agreed, and I thought all was well. That is, until last night when he called me. He told me he no longer wanted the custom cables, giving me a vague excuse about how he didn't "feel the love" with the PC building community anymore. It turns out he felt betrayed by me because I didn't come into this thread and stick up for him. Eventually he said he wanted a refund, but I told him I had spent all the $125 (plus more) on materials already and it would be better if I could just finish the job. He was adamant that he no longer wanted the cables, so he agreed to take the remaining sleeving supplies as a refund.

Today, I woke up to more angry private messages from him on OCN, as well as negative feedback on heatware. He even decided to file a dispute against me on PayPal. He's been sending death threats via PM against me and my father, as well as threatening to drive to Plano TX and assault Kyle Bennett. I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. I spent months being friendly, helpful, and cordial to bluesun311, and now he's trying his best to smear me online. Stay away from him at all costs, and to the mods: please don't restore his marketplace privileges. He really doesn't play well with others.

I apologize if this is the wrong place to put this, but I just wanted to warn others about him.

tl;dr

Bluesun311 paid me to sleeve his stock cables
I offered to do full cable job as a favor; he agrees
He changes his mind and doesn't want the cables
Sends me negative feedback and death threats, opens paypal dispute against me.

Click to expand...

he's taking his ban really personally and that's to be expected. I don't agree with his reaction (how he handled himself) but I do feel that placing yourself in his shoes it's easy to understand why he'd feel like he's getting the shitty end of the stick and that his past relationships should have some sort of expectation of at least stepping in and saying that he has been a good trader in the past.

we don't know what's going on in his life. again, none of this is to say that what he has done is acceptable behavior (assuming he *has* acted like that, it's only one side of the story and he's banned so can't respond). but I can understand feeling very angry and powerless and making all kinds of idle threats in a big ole vent session. after he calms down he'll feel embarrassed and we shouldn't make too many drastic conclusions about how someone behaves when under a lot of stress and feeling hurt and betrayal.


That said, the 90 days doesn't look like it was a reasonable time frame and by that I mean he doesn't even seem to be suggesting you wait 90 days. It looks like he was asking you to be patient with the process and, once you pressed for a firm date, he said fine here's the outside window because that's what a CC would use as a timeframe (and he's correct in that statement that you could get your money back, but it could go back and forth, and won't resolve in finality until 90 days at a minimum).

I've successfully initiated (and received) chargebacks long after 90 days. Even up to a year. That's either my credit card companies (AmEx, Discover, Citibank, and Chase) protecting me or it's their standard procedure. So I don't have a definitive answer for how long you *should* wait, only that your money is protected by your CC company if they are reliable and reputable. That's not to say you should wait for 90 days or even think that's a reasonable time frame. On that, though, I think you bear some responsibility for your role in how things heated up so quickly.


The bottom line, though, is that no one is going to offer a refund until the merchandise is back in the hands of the post office en route to the shipper (except, apparently, Gillbot). Even paypal is going to require proof of return before initiating the refund. Your CC company is going to require proof that you returned the item before resolving a chargeback (again, you can go online right now and *initiate* one but that doesn't mean it will hold). And arguing that it's the seller's responsibility doesn't mean you get to wait with the merchandise in your closet until someone comes and picks it up unless you purchase a shipping label. Often sellers have comped my return shipping, but to be clear, the policy is that you're responsible for return shipping to the seller.

It sounds like the seller was originally willing to simply refund once it was back at the post office. Now it's going to be more of a drawn out struggle. It's not exactly right but it's generally how people react when they feel like they've been wronged. Indirectly blaming someone, incessantly PM'ing them about something outside their control, banning them, and then directly blaming someone are all things that are going to create extreme defensiveness in the person. That's something that I hope we can all agree is the likely reaction from those sequence of events--right or wrong.

mope54 said:

I don't agree with his reaction (how he handled himself)

Click to expand...

He's acting like a *bad seller. He jumped on the offensive immediately for no reason if it really wasn't his fault.

I'm going to close this thread since one of the participating members can no longer participate.

Gizmo, feel free to open a new thread, or PM me and I'll re open this one if you want to post the final outcome of this deal