Very Interesting jonnyGURU thread!!

athenian200 said:
Does that basically mean that there's no way to get the data if everyone's too scared to damage expensive equipment?

I'd kind of like to think there's a way to get those load numbers without spending thousands of dollars...
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Two people, the CM rep and Phaedrus (a well respected PSU expert in case you didn't know) said the power supply was capable of safely outputting 550 watts. Oklahoma Wolf has made his position clear that he will not test 550 watts unless he gets the label stating the load levels for each rail for 550 watts. I doubt he's afraid of torching his equipment with this particular PSU, but it is his methodology, and he is sticking with it for consistency purposes.

Contact Hardware Secrets and send them a PSU. They do overload tests all the time, and I'm sure they wouldn't have any problems overloading the Coolermaster, provided that one is supplied to them.
 
Tsumi said:
Two people, the CM rep and Phaedrus (a well respected PSU expert in case you didn't know) said the power supply was capable of safely outputting 550 watts.
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Both are paid employees of CM of real unknown background whose PAID jobs are to get you to buy their shiniest turd possible. You can kind of see why people might be skeptical of someone who is TRYING to sell them something. It is, after-all, the reason why review sites exist. ;)

Far and away, among the three people you mentioned, the only one who SHOULD carry any weight is Wolf.

Contact Hardware Secrets and send them a PSU. They do overload tests all the time, and I'm sure they wouldn't have any problems overloading the Coolermaster, provided that one is supplied to them.
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Gabe no longer, and has not for a while, does PSU reviews and has indicated he will no longer be doing them.
 
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Tsumi said:
Contact Hardware Secrets and send them a PSU. They do overload tests all the time, and I'm sure they wouldn't have any problems overloading the Coolermaster, provided that one is supplied to them.
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They were the first people I thought of, but I noticed they haven't done any PSU reviews since 2013. I've sent them an e-mail, though. If they aren't doing them anymore, that's a shame because they seem to have the most thorough/extensive reviews. I particularly appreciated the overload tests that showed how far they could push it before it failed.

I am hoping I can find someone out there willing to do the review if I send them a unit. I never like those situations where there's only one review of something available that everyone directs you towards.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
Both paid employees of CM of real unknown background whose jobs PAID jobs are to get you to buy their shiniest turd possible. You can kind of see why people might be skeptical of someone who is TRYING to sell them something. It is, after-all, the reason why review sites exist. ;)

Far and away, among the three people you mentioned, the only one who SHOULD carry any weight is Wolf.



Gabe no longer, and has not for a while, done PSU reviews and has indicated he will no longer be doing them.
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This Phaedrus would be rather reputable and believable, and his background isn't exactly unknown.

Also, sucks to hear that about Gabe. Who else does good reviews nowadays? I know [H] and JonnyGuru obviously, but I think there were others that I just don't remember.
 
Actually, I'm going to have to eat crow on that re-testing issue. Sorry guys. We did originally extend an offer to re-test now that Coolermaster gave us numbers in the thread to load to. I'd completely spaced on it... been too much going on at home stressing me out, plus doing two weeks' worth of work in one week... I need a vacation.

So far, we've not heard back. But we will do 550W with a new unit (the original has been opened and is no longer factory fresh) now that the brain finally woke up and reminded me we said we would. Have to keep promises.

That said, I'll probably leave it up to Tazz. Too much on my plate right now. I'd rather move on to the rest of my workload and let you guys see the unit from a fresh perspective.

But I'm still not at all sorry I scored according to my methodology. Those guns, I am firmly sticking to.
 
Oklahoma Wolf said:
But I'm still not at all sorry I scored according to my methodology. Those guns, I am firmly sticking to.
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Everybody is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that your scoring numbers are now meaningless.

I have a new hypothesis:
If you had given a lower score for the "performance" based on the false advertising or "typo" as the CM reps called it, is that this review would never had gotten as much attention and it would be a non-issue for everybody except for the CM reps.

Unfortunately, the past cannot be altered so we will never know if my hypothesis has any merit.
 
Tsumi said:
This Phaedrus would be rather reputable and believable, and his background isn't exactly unknown.
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Oh the irony...
Phaedrus said in 2013:
CoolerMaster intends to renew its power supply business with new high-end, innovative power supplies, and a vastly improved budget series. You'll be seeing old crap like the eXtreme series replaced with more modern, accurately labeled units.
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(emphasis added)

:p
 
J Macker said:
My opinion is that your scoring numbers are now meaningless.
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No problem - I've always said from day one my scoring section represented my own opinion. It's not the first time I've seen that sentence... been seeing it on and off ever since I started. I'm used to it.
 
This thread is even better than the other one. You guys are fantastic just for showing up to toss this around with the public. I really liked the review, and I thought it was pretty fair. I don't think it makes sense to try to score it off of running at 550Watts (although it might have squeaked by 80+ that way) and I don't think it would have blown up from running at 550W even in the hotbox based on the guts we saw. Long term? Definitely not. I don't think CM should be proud of it, and I think it's a little weird they have it linked on the official product info page like it got an award or something.

The label, in fact, was not overrated at all. The model name is not an issue for me personally, I've bought a lot of cheap PSUs like this and I have always instinctively known to adjust for about 75% load as previously mentioned by Athenian200. I don't find this case to be one of particular dishonesty, nor is it one of irresponsible testing/journalism. Just my 2 cents.
 
Oklahoma Wolf said:
So far, we've not heard back. But we will do 550W with a new unit (the original has been opened and is no longer factory fresh) now that the brain finally woke up and reminded me we said we would. Have to keep promises.
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Do you guys need someone to send a new one in, or do you already have a source lined up for that? I did have plans to order some of those and offer them to any review site willing to test.

That unit is lacking a PFC, which makes it perfect for stepped sine wave UPS systems. It's surprisingly difficult to find a half-decent supply that lacks one these days... everyone standardized on them despite the inconvenience. I know plenty of people who would want something like this for that reason alone, efficiency not withstanding.
 
athenian200 said:
Do you guys need someone to send a new one in, or do you already have a source lined up for that?
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We gave CM a chance to send one - Tazz might be willing to buy another if he doesn't hear back.

It's surprisingly difficult to find a half-decent supply that lacks one these days... everyone standardized on them despite the inconvenience.
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Europe at least now requires PFC. Passive is a weight adding kludge not worth doing anymore, so the whole industry has moved to active.

Additionally, over a certain size it's not possible to do anything other than APFC. The apparent power draw simply gets too high. You should see how hot the line cord got on some of the old units I used to test, despite not being that big wattage wise. APFC makes the really big units possible.

Can't remember the last big non PFC unit I tested, but I do remember being shocked how much cooler the same line cord ran on an APFC unit the same size with similar efficiency.
 
Jorona said:
I'm sorry, the damage being done to the PSU marketplace has nothing to do with units like this from CM. This unit can provide what its rated for and more. Is it misleading? Sure. Advertising a low end unit with a peak number is pretty common though, and seeing as this unit can actually do the 550w on the box, you've got some much worse perpetrators then CM.

Brands like Logisys, Coolmax, Athena power, Diablotek, Raidmax, Apex, Apevia, etc etc etc are the ones doing the damage. When they sell a unit that says 500w that can barely output 300, that's when the market is hurt. When they sell units that almost burn down houses when they pop, that's when the market is hurt. When they sell units that take out all your precious data when they combust, that's when the market is hurt.
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In terms of brand power, Cooler Master is among the leaders in our industry. So what they do matters much more than those other brands you mentioned. Our distributors and resellers won't ask us to price match cheap units from the likes of Diablotek, Apex, etc... but they certainly will with units from the likes of Cooler Master.

Jorona said:
You're trying to make an example out of a competing company over a nitpick about what numbers on the box. I wouldn't be so quick to point fingers when you too have had some pretty optimistic numbers on mediocre units. An 850w unit ODMd by Seventeam seems to come to mind.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=164

Least the CM actually does the number on the box.
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Yes, I am trying to make an example out of them and hoping that we can make a positive change in our industry (and I'll admit that I am also hoping we can sell more of our honestly labeled PSUs out of this too).

We were punished with lower than expected sales for that 850W back in 2009 and in the end had to discount them heavily to clear out inventory. So after that bad experience we learned to be more vigilant in certifying PSUs from OEMs.

I would imagine that for Cooler Master and other brands that chose to over-label budget PSUs till this day, they would find it difficult to stop if they are still being rewarded with sustained sales volume. Like another poster in this thread mentioned, distributors and resellers are responsible for this practice as well so the blame is not entirely on the manufacturers. I can certainly understand the dilemma CM reps may be facing, but I had to call them out on it anyways for claiming that their PSU label was just a "typo."
 
Wow, that Xion was a while ago. I'd only had my current vehicle less than a month at that time.
 
Tony Ou said:
In terms of brand power, Cooler Master is among the leaders in our industry. So what they do matters much more than those other brands you mentioned. Our distributors and resellers won't ask us to price match cheap units from the likes of Diablotek, Apex, etc... but they certainly will with units from the likes of Cooler Master.



Yes, I am trying to make an example out of them and hoping that we can make a positive change in our industry (and I'll admit that I am also hoping we can sell more of our honestly labeled PSUs out of this too).

We were punished with lower than expected sales for that 850W back in 2009 and in the end had to discount them heavily to clear out inventory. So after that bad experience we learned to be more vigilant in certifying PSUs from OEMs.

I would imagine that for Cooler Master and other brands that chose to over-label budget PSUs till this day, they would find it difficult to stop if they are still being rewarded with sustained sales volume. Like another poster in this thread mentioned, distributors and resellers are responsible for this practice as well so the blame is not entirely on the manufacturers. I can certainly understand the dilemma CM reps may be facing, but I had to call them out on it anyways for claiming that their PSU label was just a "typo."
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Oi vey, You're one persistent bugger ain't ya?

First off, before I continue to pick out the flaws in your argument, I'd like to point out how unprofessional you are. This isn't how a company of your magnitude should act. You should have made your company standpoint known, through a press release or something to that effect, saying how you don't condone this kind of activity and that you don't agree with the review. Kept it short and clean. Instead, you, and I'm pretty sure you alone, have turned this into a mud slinging fest. You're trying to make them look bad, and all your doing is tarnishing your own name to do it. You're not blemish free in the market place either, and by fighting this diligently, you're only moving the focus harder onto your own brand.

Back to the task at hand...

Discounting the line trying to clear out inventory sounds like, rather then admitting fault, you just tried to make the problem go away as quickly as possible. You could have pulled the units, relabeled them as a lower wattage unit, and sold them honestly. Instead you discounted them, and sold them as 850w units, even though they obviously were not. Sounds like you hurt the market, having customers buy an inferior product at a lower price then it's properly designed rivals. Oh. You know what. That sounds EXACTLY like what you're accusing CM of doing. What a coincidence.

I'd like to point out one thing about the possible "typo". The box does have a loading table on the side for 500 and 550 watts. The 500 watt table comes out to 39a on the 12v, aka 468w. That sounds about right for a unit with a max combined output of 485w. What makes you think, when the copy pasta'd the table, they may not have changed the total max output? Seems like a pretty plausible mistake. If CM was really trying to be cheap and misleading, why would they use parts that clearly have more output available?

Stop throwing mud Tony. You're only making your brand look bad.
 
J Macker said:
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that your scoring numbers are now meaningless.
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The scoring shouldn't be the only page read in the review. Irritates the fuck out of me when someone reads the intro and the conclusion and nothing in between, but it happens all the time.
 
Oklahoma Wolf said:
Actually, I'm going to have to eat crow on that re-testing issue. Sorry guys. We did originally extend an offer to re-test now that Coolermaster gave us numbers in the thread to load to. I'd completely spaced on it... been too much going on at home stressing me out, plus doing two weeks' worth of work in one week... I need a vacation.

So far, we've not heard back. But we will do 550W with a new unit (the original has been opened and is no longer factory fresh) now that the brain finally woke up and reminded me we said we would. Have to keep promises.

That said, I'll probably leave it up to Tazz. Too much on my plate right now. I'd rather move on to the rest of my workload and let you guys see the unit from a fresh perspective.

But I'm still not at all sorry I scored according to my methodology. Those guns, I am firmly sticking to.
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Glad to hear it. I don't fault your scoring methodology because you kept it consistent from the outset, I just disagreed with the premise you started with.
 
Why not simply buy an Antec Neo 620C PSU? Seasonic built (based from the SS M12II platform) with decent caps & a 3-year warranty. 48A on a single rail & can be had for $35.00 (after $30.00 rebate) That's what I scored mine for one @ NE & I did in fact get my rebate as well (though it took 13+ weeks)
 
UMASS said:
Why not simply buy an Antec Neo 620C PSU? Seasonic built (based from the SS M12II platform) with decent caps & a 3-year warranty. 48A on a single rail & can be had for $35.00 (after $30.00 rebate) That's what I scored mine for one @ NE & I did in fact get my rebate as well (though it took 13+ weeks)
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Higher initial cost. And that it was a known quantity, fairly sure it's been tested already. The point of this test was to test a PSU that the average uninformed Joe might pick up at Fry's or Best Buy.
 
Tsumi said:
Higher initial cost. And that it was a known quantity, fairly sure it's been tested already. The point of this test was to test a PSU that the average uninformed Joe might pick up at Fry's or Best Buy.
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Exactly. We can get "decent" units from manufacturers all day long. The volume is in PSUs like this one because they meet a certain price point at retail where, as you put it, Joe Average might drop in to shop in a pinch.
 
It's a reviewers job to present the facts. reviewatorials suck!
Then it is up to the community to use the facts and draw a conclusion.
The anger needs to be directed at the right place. CM! not the reviewer.
 
stormy1 said:
It's a reviewers job to present the facts. reviewatorials suck!
Then it is up to the community to use the facts and draw a conclusion.
The anger needs to be directed at the right place. CM! not the reviewer.
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every review is subjective. There are always objective components, but there is always an element of subjectivity and reviewer preference/bias. Subjective evaluation by people who's opinions you trust is often as important as objective measures, especially when the objective measurements are statistically indistinguishable.
 
Tsumi said:
Higher initial cost. And that it was a known quantity, fairly sure it's been tested already. The point of this test was to test a PSU that the average uninformed Joe might pick up at Fry's or Best Buy.
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Ok...I get it know after your post. Really...Most people idiots will by a private-label "Rockfish" @ Best Buy & be happy. This isn't a "pedestrian" board! I don't why many people are so upset? If you buy that CM, then you're an uninformed idiot! My god the Corsair CX-500M (Modular) can be had for around $35.00 (AR) a times a year & it's not the worst.
 
I'm a bit late to the party, but it was (is?) common practice amongst cheap oems to overrate their power supplies. It was almost like a "who dares to tell the biggest lie" contest between them a decade ago here in Hungary.

I think uninformed average Joe shouldn't buy PC components without consultation. And if he does, then shame on him. It's like buying a car that's called Sigma 16, and it turns out that it's not 16 valve, but 16hp.

And I agree with the views of those who say CM is not a Tier1 brand. I never fancied them as one. They have some good price/value stuff, especially when you're on a budget for a build, but that's all.

I don't find it odd at all, that they resort to this type of conduct with their lower quality products. The company's reputation is made with the hi-end stuff, but the company is fed by the low-end crap that they can sell in bulk. It's capitalism, everyone is out for blood, I mean money.
 
M76 said:
I'm a bit late to the party, but it was (is?) common practice amongst cheap oems to overrate their power supplies. It was almost like a "who dares to tell the biggest lie" contest between them a decade ago here in Hungary.

I think uninformed average Joe shouldn't buy PC components without consultation. And if he does, then shame on him. It's like buying a car that's called Sigma 16, and it turns out that it's not 16 valve, but 16hp.

And I agree with the views of those who say CM is not a Tier1 brand. I never fancied them as one. They have some good price/value stuff, especially when you're on a budget for a build, but that's all.

I don't find it odd at all, that they resort to this type of conduct with their lower quality products. The company's reputation is made with the hi-end stuff, but the company is fed by the low-end crap that they can sell in bulk. It's capitalism, everyone is out for blood, I mean money.
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V850 and V1000 PSUs are based on the Seasonic KM3 platform. But yeah, most of their other ones are either mediocre or downright bad.
 
jonnyGURU said:
The scoring shouldn't be the only page read in the review. Irritates the fuck out of me when someone reads the intro and the conclusion and nothing in between, but it happens all the time.
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Some people get really bent out of shape over scores. Personally, I think the text leading to the score is more important.

So a power supply, movie, video game, or whatever gets an 8 and you feel it should have gotten a 6 or lower. Were the pros and cons discussed in the review? If they were, there's nothing to complain about. One can make their own decision after reading the pros and cons. I don't care if the company in question uses the score to promote their product and someone gets burned by a "con" they could have easily read about. That's a consumer issue, not a review (or reviewer) issue. As someone else mentioned, I think a more egregious issue would be if its label displayed 300 watts and 550 watts is displayed on the box. I imagine Wolf probably would have handled something like that differently, even if that didn't affect the score. I can understand not wanting to blow up PSU testing equipment, I seem to recall Kyle or Paul saying they spent $1000 to fix their equipment when a shitty PSU blew it up. As Paul mentioned, $2000 a year for maintenance isn't cheap.

That said, I'm glad it's getting a retest, I'm very interested in seeing if the CM employees are correct.
 
actually bad practices have the magical property of spilling out of expert knowledge and damage a Brand for all consumers, even those without deep technical knowledge.

what i did not get was why OW went so defensive about the review: the way i see it, the review was actually easy on the PSU, that ended with a 7, which is a first for a PSU using crapcitors and mislabeled.:p
 
geok1ng said:
which is a first for a PSU using crapcitors and mislabeled.:p
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Again, *if* it was mislabeled, it was underrated. If you consider the model name a "label" then what is the label for with the breakdown of amperage etc.?

I *still* underrate PSUs even when I get top quality. Why? Because I don't want to have a problem and it's just my instinct.
 
Bluesun311 said:
I *still* underrate PSUs even when I get top quality. Why? Because I don't want to have a problem and it's just my instinct.
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What you do is irrelevant, its not like some rule we all have to live by... its just something YOU do. Is it smart? yea probably, but it doesn't excuse selling a PSU rated at 500W as a 550W unit no matter how many times you tell us your personal PSU buying philosophy
 
jonnyGURU said:
The scoring shouldn't be the only page read in the review. Irritates the fuck out of me when someone reads the intro and the conclusion and nothing in between, but it happens all the time.
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You know what irritates me? When people make weak assumptions. There may be a basis for the assumption, and with enough detail to prevent misinterpretations, it may be a valid assumption. But a weak assumption invites scrutiny.

I led you to make that assumption by having such a short and simple statement without giving kudos for the excellent comments about the load testing or talking about any of the other details. Yeah, I actually read the article. I just don't agree with the score when the manufacturer has CLEARLY mislabeled the packaging. Otherwise, I thought Oklahoma Wolf gave a great discussion and expressed his concern appropriately on page 2. I understand completely and agree with the reason why he didn't risk damage to his test equipment. I just have the opinion that the score should have been impacted for this. I even led my baited post with "my opinion" to emphasize that everybody is entitled to their opinion.

If I go to the grocery store and buy a 10lb bag of rice, I expect to find rice. Not beans.
I don't give a rats ass about how tasty those beans are because it's not rice. Yeah, it'll fill me up, and it's cheap. But I NEEDED rice to make sushi for my kid who wanted sushi. The point is, the product should meet the specs on the OUTSIDE package label.

"550W" is NOT a model number in the world of PSUs. That's blatant false advertising in big letters on the front of the box. That's a capacity rating!
The actual model number is even shown in the picture with the UPC and the picture of the label on the PSU!
RS-550-PCAR-N1

I would love to hear your opinion on what the actual model number is now.
Do you still think that the model number for this 485w psu is "550W"? Or do you agree that the model number is "RS-550-PCAR-N1" and NOT "550W" ? It looks pretty clear to me. So what in the hell does "550W" on the front of the box mean if it's not a capacity rating? What does "550" on the label mean?

By leading you into making the assumption that I didn't read the article it led into another very important aspect:

What's the point of a numeric scoring system on a power supply review?
What's the point of a conclusion page?

I propose the following answers:

1. The point of a numeric scoring system on a power supply review is so that you can present to readers an apples-for-apples universal system for comparing the psus that you review. This helps the readerbase gain a level of understanding and level of perception about how you grade quality. Seeing nearly a perfect score indicates that the unit performs flawless and almost superb. A perfect score would indicate that the unit is far above the others. Sorry jonny, but after having read reviews on your site for over a decade, seeing this incident and score really gives me a different impression about your culture or perception about "quality".

2. The conclusion page is a brief summary of the review, intended to emphasize the highlights and important points. This was done well. Sometimes readers are not interested in the entire review. Sorry but that's a fact. Sometimes we only have time to read the one part of the review that matters to us and conclusion. So we trust the reviewer to give us the important information in the conclusion page. Either view it as honorary to be entrusted to bestow your opinion on us in a single page because we trust you so much, that we don't even think we need to read the other pages, or, we're lazy. Or both. I'm sure you've already considered the possibility that not everybody reads every page in the review. I know Kyle has considered dropping the conclusions section because he was tired of people not reading the whole article for the content & discussion. The conclusions section is still there. It drives a point.
There WILL be readers who only read the conclusions page. Their loss. I read the review because of the controversy, and I will continue to read reviews posted on your site. I still trust the review content & capabilities of you & your staff, but the value in the scoring system has lost some merit in my mind.

Well, maybe a numeric system doesn't really matter at all. For these cheap units, all that matters is price & reasonable reliability. Due to the sleeve fan, cheap capacitors & high price, I will not be buying it. So thank you for reviewing it.
 
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Activate: AMD said:
You're right, anyone worth their salt wouldn't be buying this unit based on the first page of this review where he states its not actually a 550W PSU....
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It's very common for the XFX 550w go on sale for $26-30 after rebate. Oh, and according to jonny's review, it can actually do 550w. It's not just a model number ;). So I buy the XFX 550w psus when they go on sale and I set them on the shelf until the next build.

Or, there's the frequent sales on the Corsair CX500w psu for $30. Either one is a far better bang-buck than this mislabeled CM psu at $50-$60. So you're right, I probably wouldn't be buying this unit. There are FAR better units at far cheaper prices out there!
 
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If you buy a cheap 550w power supply to run it at 550w most of the time your doing it wrong. Even if it comes with 80+ certification, which the CM did not. I'd be more concerned about the efficiency rating and how it can handle it at 20%-80% of its stated max wattage.

PS: I just assume now days if its not 80+ certified then the numbers are probably overly enthusiastic on the box.
 
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Oklahoma Wolf said:
For clarification, Jon no longer works at the site and has not for some time - he just founded it. Once he moved on to BFG and later to Corsair, he retired from the site to prevent a conflict of interest. Tazz (Tony) runs the show now.

Also, I wrote the review ;)
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sorry i forgot that he doesn't work there anymore.
yeah I know you wrote the review.
 
Activate: AMD said:
What you do is irrelevant, its not like some rule we all have to live by... its just something YOU do. Is it smart? yea probably, but it doesn't excuse selling a PSU rated at 500W as a 550W unit no matter how many times you tell us your personal PSU buying philosophy
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Except its a 550W PSU Being sold as a 475Watt PSU. What you do, complaining about things like this that any blind fool would already know to look out for, is irrelevant.
 
J Macker said:
yadda yadda yadda
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What UL, CB, CE, TÜV, Ecova, etc. when they certify a PSU is the label. Not the box. Not a manual Not marketing, but the label on the unit itself.

The label is what they go by. The label is what a reviewer should go by.
 
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