Did EVGA Steal The Rivatuner RTSS Design?

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What's that you say? It's been a while since we've had any controversy in the industry? Here's some for you. Problem solved.

So was this modern age stealing ? Well, you can't copyright a GUI / user-interface so sure, EVGA is allowed to do this as long as they didn't 'borrow' code from the RTSS engine (I am trying to choose my words carefully here). But dear dudes and dudettes from EVGA, if you launch a totally new in-house designed overclock utility and you want something new. Why then copy-paste the Rivatuner and RTSS design this much ?
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My old VP had a saying, 'steal from the best but make it your own'...I guess they forgot the latter part!
 
Pretty scumbag move of EVGA. The fact that they don't deny any of the copy+paste allegations is very unsettling. That's what PR is good at though, spinning a story to make it work in their favor.
 
Unwinder is a shithead. I can see how this move looks cheap but its not hard to see why a corporation would decide it doesn't want their software dependent on a single russian programmer that works out of his garage.

TL;DR: Divorces are ugly.
 
DPI said:
Unwinder is a shithead. I can see how this move looks cheap but its not hard to see why a corporation would decide it doesn't want their software dependent on a single russian programmer that works out of his garage.

TL;DR: Divorces are ugly.
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So he is a shit head because EVGA copied his work code for code, line for line, which is against their contract and agreement?

Get real..

Sure EVGA could afford to do this inhouse, and ACTUALLY code it themselves instead of copy and paste protected work..

Did you even read the article..
 
Worth quoting again from last week :

Second, I just decided to peek inside "in-house" application EXE. I'd better avoid doing so: even my original EXE string table is inside new executable as is. Including all the messages of original application, including all the messages of my proprietary USF skin compiler / decompiler built into original RivaTuner skinning engine, even including the references to original RivaTuner core libraries (RTTSH.dll). Even including the messages related to RivaTuner’s G15 LCD output module, which the company probably also tried to clone but couldn’t get working yet. Really, EVGA?
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evga stole & copied the code, simple. Horrible, I took any references for them off my sigs, no free advertising for scum companies like that from me.
 
I really don't see an issue with copying the "look and feel" especially since it is done to the benefit of the user (lowers the learning curve) especially if there is charge on the said software.

That said, the accusation that there are certain elements in the EXE that "stinks"....yea...they may want to correct that.
 
MrGuvernment said:
So he is a shit head because EVGA copied his work code for code, line for line, which is against their contract and agreement?

Get real..

Sure EVGA could afford to do this inhouse, and ACTUALLY code it themselves instead of copy and paste protected work..

Did you even read the article..
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Derp yeah I read the article. I've been following this drama since long before it was a drama. And don't put words in my mouth, that's not why I referred to him as a shitbag. I've been following his posts for a long time, he's just an obnoxious, arrogant, abrasive guy that actually gets angry when people dare to ask for new features.

He didn't invent in-game overlays and it's not his intellectual property. As for whether EVGA copied his work, its not that cut and dry because he worked for EVGA under a licensing agreement. Again, divorces are ugly. I dont care about the legal nuances of whatever contract they had in place, that's a matter between Alexey/Unwinder and EVGA and whatever legal options he decides to exercise.

From an end user perspective all I know is that I've finally got 64bit support in PrecisionX. People can kneejerk and flail all they want about perceived injustices.
 
MoFoQ said:
That said, the accusation that there are certain elements in the EXE that "stinks"....yea...they may want to correct that.
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If you want to have a better understanding of why the word "RivaTuner" would appear in EVGA's executable you might want to read a bit more, because EVGA was never given any source code (by Alexey/Unwinder's own admission).

Some people mentioned that the file structure in EVGA PrecisionX 15 is similar to the previous version of Precision. During development, we referenced the USF skin format (which has been published by RivaTuner developer at Guru3D forums in 2009 http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=3316361&postcount=8 to allow the community to create their own skins). The above mentioned feature would make it simple to allow users to recompile any previous skins to work with the new version of PrecisionX 15. However, we do understand the confusion caused by trying to maintain this feature and we will change it in the next release.

Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word “RivaTuner” and the word “RTTSH.dll”, a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages. Unfortunately, this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.

Originally our goal was to add more features such as 64bit OSD, Steam, updated voltage controls, and more to a new version without changing the Precision user’s experience that they were already familiar with. Unfortunately, the “similarities” between the two programs have led people to believe that EVGA might have copied the code and design from RivaTuner, which is not the case. Given the circumstances, in order to remove any questions and to further differentiate it visually from the previous versions of EVGA Precision, EVGA has decided to listen to the community and suspend the downloading of EVGA PrecisionX 15 temporarily while these updates are being implemented.
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The guy definitely has some anger issues in the way he responds to people asking a simple question but he has done some great work and should protect it. I'm sure he's put some crazy hours in to it no doubt
 
MrGuvernment said:
Sure EVGA could afford to do this inhouse, and ACTUALLY code it themselves instead of copy and paste protected work..

Did you even read the article..
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't EVGA having issues with bios coding lol?
 
EVGA has suspended the download of the new Precision X 15. Here is the EVGA statement you get when trying to download



PrecisionX 15 Statement

We understand that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation in the internet community about Guru3D’s article titled “Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?”. We would like to clarify the following:

  1. Precision’s original main GUI concept was designed and provided to the community by EVGA in 2008.
  2. The RivaTuner control panel and backend code in prior versions of Precision were developed and is owned by the RivaTuner developer. EVGA does not own the source code for any RivaTuner code. EVGA paid for the development and distribution rights per the contract.
  3. The new EVGA PrecisionX 15 was coded from scratch by EVGA without copying any of the RivaTuner code.
  4. Both RivaTuner and EVGA PrecisionX 15 make use of the NVIDIA NVAPI to communicate with NVIDIA graphics cards and drivers, which is owned and provided by NVIDIA.
Some people mentioned that the file structure in EVGA PrecisionX 15 is similar to the previous version of Precision. During development, we referenced the USF skin format (which has been published by RivaTuner developer at Guru3D forums in 2009 http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=3316361&postcount=8 to allow the community to create their own skins). The above mentioned feature would make it simple to allow users to recompile any previous skins to work with the new version of PrecisionX 15. However, we do understand the confusion caused by trying to maintain this feature and we will change it in the next release.
Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word “RivaTuner” and the word “RTTSH.dll”, a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages. Unfortunately, this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.
Originally our goal was to add more features such as 64bit OSD, Steam, updated voltage controls, and more to a new version without changing the Precision user’s experience that they were already familiar with. Unfortunately, the “similarities” between the two programs have led people to believe that EVGA might have copied the code and design from RivaTuner, which is not the case. Given the circumstances, in order to remove any questions and to further differentiate it visually from the previous versions of EVGA Precision, EVGA has decided to listen to the community and suspend the downloading of EVGA PrecisionX 15 temporarily while these updates are being implemented.
Please remember, Precision was and is built for the community and without the community EVGA Precision and many other overclocking utilities would not be where they are today. It is EVGA’s commitment to continue investing in the development of PrecisionX by adding the features the community asks for while providing it free of charge!
Thank You,
EVGA
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MrGuvernment said:
Well, reason enough for me not to buy EVGA....
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I've never used EVGA's software anyway because MSI Afterburner always had a much better GUI (powered by RivaTuner and identical GUI to the screenshot). I can understand why EVGA was tempted to copy it, because it made their software look like a joke.

I'll just keep using Afterburner and buying EVGA cards with lifetime warranties. :p
 
i always thought it was rivatuner you were using with evga precision anyway... at least previous versions. it was even a separate optional install when installing precision, so what am I missing?
 
DPI said:
Derp yeah I read the article. I've been following this drama since long before it was a drama. And don't put words in my mouth, that's not why I referred to him as a shitbag. I've been following his posts for a long time, he's just an obnoxious, arrogant, abrasive guy that actually gets angry when people dare to ask for new features.

He didn't invent in-game overlays and it's not his intellectual property. As for whether EVGA copied his work, its not that cut and dry because he worked for EVGA under a licensing agreement. Again, divorces are ugly. I dont care about the legal nuances of whatever contract they had in place, that's a matter between Alexey/Unwinder and EVGA and whatever legal options he decides to exercise.

From an end user perspective all I know is that I've finally got 64bit support in PrecisionX. People can kneejerk and flail all they want about perceived injustices.
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How is his personality as you described "an obnoxious, arrogant, abrasive guy" has anything to do with situation between him and EVGA? That facts are the facts. Whether EVGA stole anything and take a hit in their reputation will be up to the gaming community to decide. However, if you don't care about the legality and contract aspect of this fight between the 2 parties then you've just admitted you don't know what you are talking about.
 
DrNick said:
The guy definitely has some anger issues in the way he responds to people asking a simple question but he has done some great work and should protect it. I'm sure he's put some crazy hours in to it no doubt
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After further reconsideration I come hat in hand to admit that my earlier statement about Alexey was idiotic. Yes, it takes a big man to admit he was wrong. And it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

I agree, he may be a bit of a personality with his responses to people, and he absolutely raged when people asked about 64bit support when Battlefield 4 came out, but there's certainly his side to this.

Alas, this all comes down to a hobbyist programmer not fully understanding the speed of business, and a corporation becoming increasingly frustrated with being dependent on a single hobbyist programmer. Maybe he's got a legal case, maybe not, but EVGA is going to strip all ties and links to any of his work in the next revision and I for one am glad I'll finally have 64bit support in PrecisionX.
 
Pentium2028 said:
if you don't care about the legality and contract aspect of this fight between the 2 parties then you've just admitted you don't know what you are talking about.
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No, I've admitted I don't give a f@#k how the sausage is made.

Nobody knows what legal terms existed between EVGA and Alexey, and we probably never will, so speculation is pointless.
 
So was this modern age stealing ? Well, you can't copyright a GUI / user-interface so sure,
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Um Ask Apple that one I bet they would disagree with that one and have court cases to prove it.
 
DPI said:
No, I've admitted I don't give a f@#k how the sausage is made.

Nobody knows what legal terms existed between EVGA and Alexey, and we probably never will, so speculation is pointless.
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Exactly. Unless one of the parties tells us what the terms were and who owns the rights to the intellectual property, it's nothing more than "he said, she said". It might come out in court, if someone were to sue, but unless someone has deep pockets, it's not likely.
 
This is news? People didn't already think the two looked identical? I just assumed there was some collaboration or his was open source or something.
 
Would it really be so horrible if they DID copy it?

I mean, I bet a lot of the same people complaining about this also have no qualms about pirating games and operating systems. Seems kind of hypocritical from that perspective.

I've always felt that GUI-related lawsuits are frivolous. I've also never felt that anyone can "own" an idea or program. I'm just glad to see a program that does what is intended being improved, and I don't really care who does it.

I mean, they already gave him royalty payments for years, and he barely even made any improvements to the software. He's probably already gotten more money for this software than he honestly deserved.

Not to mention, all it really did was help people wear their video cards out faster and invalidate their warranties. Not sure how much praise someone should get for that to begin with.

Also, I doubt NVidia is terribly happy about this kind of software digging into the backend of their hardware implementation, and most of the work he's done just taps into the work of their engineers. His claim to it is sketchy at best... arguably all he did was create a software interface to modify things NVidia's drivers don't normally allow to be changed. A company that builds cards for NVidia and pays them for the privilege arguably has just as much right or more to such a program, if anyone does.

By all rights, nTune is what people should have been using. RivaTuner is just some program written by someone with no connection to NVidia who may or may not know what they're doing. If I were to complain about anything, I'd complain that EVGA is using software that hasn't been approved by NVidia or vetted by a larger team of developers. In other words, that it's an unreliable implementation that they shouldn't have risked using.
 
athenian200 said:
Would it really be so horrible if they DID copy it?

I mean, I bet a lot of the same people complaining about this also have no qualms about pirating games and operating systems. Seems kind of hypocritical from that perspective.

I've always felt that GUI-related lawsuits are frivolous. I've also never felt that anyone can "own" an idea or program. I'm just glad to see a program that does what is intended being improved, and I don't really care who does it.

I mean, they already gave him royalty payments for years, and he barely even made any improvements to the software. He's probably already gotten more money for this software than he honestly deserved.

Not to mention, all it really did was help people wear their video cards out faster and invalidate their warranties. Not sure how much praise someone should get for that to begin with.

Also, I doubt NVidia is terribly happy about this kind of software digging into the backend of their hardware implementation, and most of the work he's done just taps into the work of their engineers. His claim to it is sketchy at best... arguably all he did was create a software interface to modify things NVidia's drivers don't normally allow to be changed. A company that builds cards for NVidia and pays them for the privilege arguably has just as much right or more to such a program, if anyone does.

By all rights, nTune is what people should have been using. RivaTuner is just some program written by someone with no connection to NVidia who may or may not know what they're doing. If I were to complain about anything, I'd complain that EVGA is using software that hasn't been approved by NVidia or vetted by a larger team of developers. In other words, that it's an unreliable implementation that they shouldn't have risked using.
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:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Arbit3r said:
Um Ask Apple that one I bet they would disagree with that one and have court cases to prove it.
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If it was simply a cloned GUI, that's one thing.

These guys basically just wrapped Rivatuner in a new executable and called it their own.

Basically all the internal calls are basically Rivaturner-specific code.

That's something VASTLY different from cloning a GUI.
 
Yakk said:
Worth quoting again from last week :



evga stole & copied the code, simple. Horrible, I took any references for them off my sigs, no free advertising for scum companies like that from me.
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So he found text references in binary code (which looks like gibberish unless you can somehow decompile it, by the way) to the skinning module that EVGA already admitted they used by license to him? How does that prove EVGA stole anything? Sounds like he is bellyaching to try and make a case against EVGA to extort more money out of them while hurting their reputation in the process. He had better be careful what he says at this point because EVGA could easily sue him for libel.
 
athenian200 said:
Would it really be so horrible if they DID copy it?
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Uhm. Do YOU work for free?
If someone stole something you worked on and claimed it as their own, would you be sanquine about it?

He's a programmer. He gets paid to develop code on demand.

Which is why MSI buckled down and actually paid him to add features and 64-bit compatibility to his project.

EVGA was getting a free ride on that, and didn't like the fact that they were going to get locked out of a feature (temporarily) that someone else paid the developer to add SPECIFICALLY for their own use.

Let me rephrase. EVGA didn't give this guy a dime to develop the new features. They just assumed that they'd be given immediate access to the fruits of labor SOMEONE ELSE PAID FOR.

When that didn't happen, they STOLE from this developer. They simply created a wrapper for the original program and tried to pass the entirety of the work off as their own. But forensic analysis of the program betrays the fact that it's still simply a wrapped program.

Sure, the developer may have anger issues and problems with his people skills.
NOT a reason to steal from him.

Also, have you ever tried helming a popular project?
You have people going "It'd be nice if it had this, or that or this other thing."
But nobody stepping forward to help develop it or put up the cash so he can blow off his day job and spend more time developing the project..
And FREE development time is always limited, unless you're independently wealthy and don't care about making a living.

People talk about this developer "living in his garage". If that's so, WHY is he living in a garage?

I like EVGA's products. But their ethics in this situation are disgusting.
 
Seems no one is reading the EVGA statement I posted and seems most here have their minds made up already that EVGA is guilty. Man I'd hate to have some of you guys as jurors. Personally I'm siding with EVGA on this one. I don't think they are using any of Unwinder's code. They explained the mistake on the last version containing some txt referencing Rivatuner. Text is not code as they pointed out and it's easy to see how it happened. I think EVGA just outgrew Unwinder's stuff (I mean what has he really done in the last few years) and wanted to do it on their own. They are also doing it for free.
 
DPI said:
Derp yeah I read the article. I've been following this drama since long before it was a drama. And don't put words in my mouth, that's not why I referred to him as a shitbag. I've been following his posts for a long time, he's just an obnoxious, arrogant, abrasive guy that actually gets angry when people dare to ask for new features.

He didn't invent in-game overlays and it's not his intellectual property. As for whether EVGA copied his work, its not that cut and dry because he worked for EVGA under a licensing agreement. Again, divorces are ugly. I dont care about the legal nuances of whatever contract they had in place, that's a matter between Alexey/Unwinder and EVGA and whatever legal options he decides to exercise.

From an end user perspective all I know is that I've finally got 64bit support in PrecisionX. People can kneejerk and flail all they want about perceived injustices.
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So, because he's a jerk, IP law should be applied differently than if he were a really nice guy who spent all his waking hours adding free features to his software?

I do agree the whole thing is pretty silly. Buy the card you like the best, EVERY company on Earth has done something wrong or pissed someone off along the way.
 
Dick move. Never liked EVGA as a company. All that pimping and playing "cool" seemed incredibly fake from the start.
 
Maybe people who are defending EVGA should actually read the Guru3D article originally posted? Unwinder does elaborate on the license agreement.

And, hell, Unwinder will not take any legal action. He's just upset that EVGA lied and stole his code. Shit, he was going to give them the 64bit Overlay, or whatever, since MSI paid for it. Unfortunately, EVGA couldn't wait a few months, or better yet, actually pay Unwinder for the first time ever for a feature they want. Note, Unwinder was under no contract obligations to release new features for them; he did that of his own free will. EVGA did not have permission to copy his work; they could only distribute it and copyright only the non-software elements of Precision X.

Guys, if you need Precision X, just use MSI Afterburner. It is the same thing, but MSI actually pays for their software and treat their partners with an ounce of respect.
 
Blank-Minded said:
Maybe people who are defending EVGA should actually read the Guru3D article originally posted? Unwinder does elaborate on the license agreement.

And, hell, Unwinder will not take any legal action. He's just upset that EVGA lied and stole his code. Shit, he was going to give them the 64bit Overlay, or whatever, since MSI paid for it. Unfortunately, EVGA couldn't wait a few months, or better yet, actually pay Unwinder for the first time ever for a feature they want. Note, Unwinder was under no contract obligations to release new features for them; he did that of his own free will. EVGA did not have permission to copy his work; they could only distribute it and copyright only the non-software elements of Precision X.

Guys, if you need Precision X, just use MSI Afterburner. It is the same thing, but MSI actually pays for their software and treat their partners with an ounce of respect.
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WHAT code did EVGA steal? People keep parroting this line yet EVGA has none of Alexey's source code.

I swear this thread is like a litmus test for dumb.
 
eVGA's actions toward Unwinder are the result of how he interacts with others. If you treat others like crap don't be shocked when a corporation cuts you loose. Guess his feelings were hurt because they decided to cut ties, drop royalties, and never sent him an email about it...lesson for the future is don't be a dick to a billion dollar company. he was lucky they worked with him for this long.
 
So, when will precision 15 be available to dl again? I preferred their interface over MSI's.
 
mope54 said:
eVGA's actions toward Unwinder are the result of how he interacts with others. If you treat others like crap don't be shocked when a corporation cuts you loose.
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Still not a legitimate reason to steal his work.

Also, as the developer, his time is a limited (therefore valuable) resource.

If you had people begging and ragging on you for features, who didn't want to plunk money down to help cover the development costs, and treat you like a flunky, I can pretty much guarantee YOU would be a "surly coder" too.

Guess his feelings were hurt because they decided to cut ties, drop royalties, and never sent him an email about it...lesson for the future is don't be a dick to a billion dollar company. he was lucky they worked with him for this long.
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No. RTFA for chrissakes.

He's ticked that, instead of dropping him and actually turning out their OWN product, they simply stole his, wrapped it in a new executable and claimed that it was an entirely in-house programming job.

Now, it's possible that people outside the dev crew that perpetrated this fraud were left unaware of what'd been done. But I'm betting those that pulled this are either looking for a new job now, or will be in the next few days.

If EVGA IMMEDIATELY wanted the newer features and x64 support, they should have contracted with him when MSI first came to the table with an open wallet.

But they expected to coast along and pick it up for free, on someone else's dime.

And, had they been patient, they WOULD have, a few months down the road.

Instead, some people at EVGA got butt-hurt that their contract for a certain version didn't give them the immediate rights to any and all expansions, feature additions and updates, regardless or origin, and decided to be complete shady dickholes over this.

But please. Tell us again how being cantankerous is a license for others to steal your shit again?
 
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