Xbox Exec: Resolutiongate A 'Perception Challenge' That Must Be Fixed

After reading all the comments I forgot what the OP was about....
 
scbundy said:
Neither console is anywhere near powerful enough to play games at 4K. Only SLI equipped PC's would be able to handle fancy modern games at that resolution. There's nothing Sony nor MS could have done to change that. Unless you want to pay $2000 for a Playstation.

That argument bugs me. Lots of guys complaining about the consoles being underpowered. Ok then, what would you have changed to make it better? Keeping in mind that the price has to stay below $500. Go ahead and tell us.
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GPU based on 780 GTX chip, Same 4K upscaler chip used in Pioneers new $400-600 AV Receivers, Blu-ray with actually 3D support because the GPU CAN handle it, rest of the same internals, maybe a stronger CPU.

Before you go off on a 780 being too much, the actual chip is $150 each off the line.
That would put this system right around $500-600. Considering every system except Wii in past launches has taken a hit from $300+ or more in the past because they make up for it on software sales. Only this time neither company wanted to take a hit on hardware sales and look what you got in returned. Underpowered shit.

And again, if that gpu was too much, put a 680 version in it with the 4K upscaler. That's the power many of us expected, a more powerful type 680/Radeon 7950 or better. I am not some kid with a half a brain son, I know what "At Cost" is to build this. They wanted the ALL IN ONE Jaguar from AMD and well, they got what AMD does best, cheap shit.

Anything else???
 
LeninGHOLA said:
I just think it's a bit silly to get burned on a lemon of a product 7 bloody times. 1-2 times, sure... 3-7 times? Why keep giving them money?
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Did you read the article??? MS paid for it. Not us. They paid for the repairs and shipping. They kept sending people systems back and forth with the RROD. I gave up and waited till late 2009 to get ours.
 
SnowBeast said:
GPU based on 780 GTX chip, Same 4K upscaler chip used in Pioneers new $400-600 AV Receivers, Blu-ray with actually 3D support because the GPU CAN handle it, rest of the same internals, maybe a stronger CPU.

Before you go off on a 780 being too much, the actual chip is $150 each off the line.
That would put this system right around $500-600. Considering every system except Wii in past launches has taken a hit from $300+ or more in the past because they make up for it on software sales. Only this time neither company wanted to take a hit on hardware sales and look what you got in returned. Underpowered shit.

And again, if that gpu was too much, put a 680 version in it with the 4K upscaler. That's the power many of us expected, a more powerful type 680/Radeon 7950 or better. I am not some kid with a half a brain son, I know what "At Cost" is to build this. They wanted the ALL IN ONE Jaguar from AMD and well, they got what AMD does best, cheap shit.

Anything else???
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Hahaha, omg man. This is a pill, take it, you'll feel better in the morning. You want to add at least $150 to the BoM, and that's just for the part, not to mention the engineering involved in incorporating it alongside the processor, which already has a GPU. Just for this console to support a TV that nobody freaking owns. Have u looked at TV sales lately? They're flat, and that's not likely to change for the lifecycle of these.
 
scbundy said:
I'm just gonna pretend it's about porn.
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That's because you don't have a witty response to come back with and if you don't give a crap, why did you post in the first place? Don't educate yourself or learn, keep buying shit like a lemming.

Okay, back to talking to a wall, everything here is personal and unintelligent responses any more.
 
scbundy said:
Hahaha, omg man. This is a pill, take it, you'll feel better in the morning. You want to add at least $150 to the BoM, and that's just for the part, not to mention the engineering involved in incorporating it alongside the processor, which already has a GPU. Just for this console to support a TV that nobody freaking owns. Have u looked at TV sales lately? They're flat, and that's not likely to change for the lifecycle of these.
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Playstation 3 late development Cell Processor not powerful enough, Nvidia steps in with GPU added to system 8 months before production. Explain how they did that...Go...
 
SnowBeast said:
That's because you don't have a witty response to come back with and if you don't give a crap, why did you post in the first place? Don't educate yourself or learn, keep buying shit like a lemming.

Okay, back to talking to a wall, everything here is personal and unintelligent responses any more.
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What are you even talking about? Buying shit like a lemming? Let's see. I got a free Xbox One at a conference my work sent me too, I didn't buy into the last gen at all, and I'm not the one going full retard about having 7 X360's.
 
SnowBeast said:
Playstation 3 late development Cell Processor not powerful enough, Nvidia steps in with GPU added to system 8 months before production. Explain how they did that...Go...
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Ok! They charged $600 out of the gate causing a massive uproar among the PS2 fanbase and spent the next 7 years after massive discounts playing catch up to the X360 which started with no momentum at all.
 
scbundy said:
Ok! They charged $600 out of the gate causing a massive uproar among the PS2 fanbase and spent the next 7 years after massive discounts playing catch up to the X360 which started with no momentum at all.
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Dont mention that to him. They all forget about that...
 
lol. Yeah, I don't even know why he's yelling at me, I think he thinks were fighting. I'm not a big fan of any of these systems. I honestly could not give less of a crap. Except my my PC. My baby. I love you honey I'll be there soon!!!!!
 
That's the thing. Who the hell said the a console would be able to game at 4k, you NEED 2K just in graphics alone to drive 4k not even with stuff turned up. This is a classic example of people thinking too highly of console. I have an xbox one and a gtx 780 powered pc but I didnt purchase my one thinking it was going to replace my computer.
 
Microsoft forgot that what the majority of potential xBone customers expected was a *gaming console.* So they cheapened the hardware a bit in that regard and the result was a gaming console that wasn't strong enough to do 1080P reliably. Had they concentrated on delivering as much game-console power as they could have for $500, and left the set-top box/kinect features off entirely (offering them only as extra-cost options), they could've put together a $500 gaming console that would have blown the PS4 away in both specs and performance. It would have been so much more powerful, in fact, that most people could've easily justified spending the extra $100 above the cost of the PS4. Instead, they loaded the xBone up with all this other junk that, it turns out (predictably), was less than inspiring for the majority of people in the game-console market.

For some reason that has always eluded me, Microsoft is often almost clueless when it comes to computer gaming. I'm confused about it, because with AMD's & nVidia's help they're doing a bang-up job with D3d--D3d12 *should be* a real pedal-to-metal version of the API. So why do they always seem so clueless about gaming--they don't even have a good handle on *console* gaming, much less Windows gaming. And yet, Windows gaming puts the Windows OS on top of the OS heap in terms of performance and hardware support decisively! But look at the mess they made of GFW (or whatever they called it)--and all of the broken promises and pledges that one Microsoft exec after another has made on the subject of Windows gaming! Somebody in the company--don't know who, of course--seemed to shoot down every decent idea and concept the various Microsoft execs would announce!

Think of the mess Microsoft made with the xBone reveal/launch. They were pushing some really crummy ideas at customers, like the "Always Connected" Internet requirement they swore that "everyone wants." Then, the telling of some gigantic fibs (the great processing server farm in the sky, etc.), lying about "shared libraries" that copyright law would never have permitted them to offer (look at Valve's "shared libraries" in Steam--what a joke--but something just like that is all Microsoft could ever have actually done), etc. How could a company get *so many things* wrong about gaming, over and over again, it seems? Then came the big apology that just said, basically: "Sorry that we didn't know our market like we should have." Words like, "We didn't know you wanted to keep your game disks," and so on are incredible. Makes you think that the 360 was just a lucky fluke for them...as opposed to something deliberate.
 
WaltC said:
Microsoft forgot that what the majority of potential xBone customers expected was a *gaming console.* So they cheapened the hardware a bit in that regard and the result was a gaming console that wasn't strong enough to do 1080P reliably. Had they concentrated on delivering as much game-console power as they could have for $500, and left the set-top box/kinect features off entirely (offering them only as extra-cost options), they could've put together a $500 gaming console that would have blown the PS4 away in both specs and performance. It would have been so much more powerful, in fact, that most people could've easily justified spending the extra $100 above the cost of the PS4. Instead, they loaded the xBone up with all this other junk that, it turns out (predictably), was less than inspiring for the majority of people in the game-console market.

For some reason that has always eluded me, Microsoft is often almost clueless when it comes to computer gaming. I'm confused about it, because with AMD's & nVidia's help they're doing a bang-up job with D3d--D3d12 *should be* a real pedal-to-metal version of the API. So why do they always seem so clueless about gaming--they don't even have a good handle on *console* gaming, much less Windows gaming. And yet, Windows gaming puts the Windows OS on top of the OS heap in terms of performance and hardware support decisively! But look at the mess they made of GFW (or whatever they called it)--and all of the broken promises and pledges that one Microsoft exec after another has made on the subject of Windows gaming! Somebody in the company--don't know who, of course--seemed to shoot down every decent idea and concept the various Microsoft execs would announce!

Think of the mess Microsoft made with the xBone reveal/launch. They were pushing some really crummy ideas at customers, like the "Always Connected" Internet requirement they swore that "everyone wants." Then, the telling of some gigantic fibs (the great processing server farm in the sky, etc.), lying about "shared libraries" that copyright law would never have permitted them to offer (look at Valve's "shared libraries" in Steam--what a joke--but something just like that is all Microsoft could ever have actually done), etc. How could a company get *so many things* wrong about gaming, over and over again, it seems? Then came the big apology that just said, basically: "Sorry that we didn't know our market like we should have." Words like, "We didn't know you wanted to keep your game disks," and so on are incredible. Makes you think that the 360 was just a lucky fluke for them...as opposed to something deliberate.
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Oh for sure. I think they were counting on Sony to deliver a Cell 2.0 clusterfuck, and got burned when Sony put together a fairly decent system. And that's before all the other DRM/Kinect mess.

I don't think there's any doubt that MS missed a huge opportunity with PC gaming. Steam should have been their creation. But their inaction handed it to Valve.
 
I honestly think they should start making games for the one and ps4 that would let people chose how they want to play. If they want great graphics with all the fidelity the game can offer, they they can toggle sliders that way. If they want 60 frames then they can turn down the fidelity. How we can tweak on computers should be the way its done from here on out. These systems are not going to unlock secret horsepower to get games running at 1080p 60fps. This shit was doomed from the start. They really need to stop all this 6 year development cycles and need to shorten it to 2 so they can at least get a "current" gpu.

I think people are sick of this and cant see this generation lasting 7 years. I smell a refresh of a one in a few years. They cannot keep up with the current model. Shit was long in the tooth before it was released.
 
scbundy said:
Ok! They charged $600 out of the gate causing a massive uproar among the PS2 fanbase and spent the next 7 years after massive discounts playing catch up to the X360 which started with no momentum at all.
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SilkySalamandr said:
Dont mention that to him. They all forget about that...
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Dont forget that a hefty chunk of the $600 figure came from Sony's decision to include Blu-Ray. At the time the cheapest stand alone blu-ray player was $300+.
 
scbundy said:
Oh for sure. I think they were counting on Sony to deliver a Cell 2.0 clusterfuck, and got burned when Sony put together a fairly decent system. And that's before all the other DRM/Kinect mess.

I don't think there's any doubt that MS missed a huge opportunity with PC gaming. Steam should have been their creation. But their inaction handed it to Valve.
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This hits the nail on the head..MS was clearly Expecting Sony to completely drop the ball with the PS4 especially since the Door was open from Nintendo bombing the WiiU. Unfortunately for them Sony against all odds managed to somehow not completely fuckup the PS4 and actually delivered what people wanted. As much as I liked my PS3, even I recognize how hard Sony actively tried to sink their own ship with it, they are their own worst enemies. Thing is, I'm not entirely convinced Sony didn't want to do some of the things MS announced for the XB1. However I suspect they kept the system flexible enough that they could go either direction depending on how it was received and they honestly expected it to probably not go over well.
 
This is why it was $600

ps3_cost.jpg


And this is how we all got screwed:

AllThingsD got an early look at the analysis, in which the firm estimates the cost of those parts, plus what it costs to assemble them, at $381. That is only $18 shy of the PS4’s $399 retail price, leaving Sony little profit margin on the sale of the device itself.
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doug_7506 said:
Dont forget that a hefty chunk of the $600 figure came from Sony's decision to include Blu-Ray. At the time the cheapest stand alone blu-ray player was $300+.
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True, but if the NV GPU wasn't necessary, it would have been under $500. My point was that Sony paid the price for creating an overcomplicated system, a price that they've rectified this time around. A mistake this guy feels they should have made again simply b/c he wants to game in 4K. Sony's sales figures and profit margin on the PS4 basically prove my point, I don't even need to say anything.
 
doug_7506 said:
This is why it was $600

ps3_cost.jpg


And this is how we all got screwed:
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A small margin is better than none. You have to remember Sony can't financially afford to take a loss on anything right now. They're losing billions every year. A successful PS4 that sells at a loss could finish them.
 
I have xbox one and gtx 780 in my pc. IDK im still impressed with how the xbox plays and looks. I dont expect the world from it so im happy with it. I like the UI of xbox over ps thats one of the reasons why i picked it.
 
I won't link to them, but it's downright hilarious watching anti-MS hivemind forums like Neo Gaf go completely apeshit over an XBOX exec stating facts about video resolution.

Steve's story was also hilarious.
 
Man MS, do not play this game. Saying that you need a 60+ inch TV to see the difference between 1080p and something less, is straight up spinning words against reality.
 
crusty_juggler said:
I won't link to them, but it's downright hilarious watching anti-MS hivemind forums like Neo Gaf go completely apeshit over an XBOX exec stating facts about video resolution.

Steve's story was also hilarious.
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They go with whoever doesn't fuck up. Look at posts earlier in the PS360 cycle. They hammered Sony for years.

On topic though it's not just a perception problem about screen sizes or resolution. There are games already out that are running the same resolution or even higher resolutions that have more special effects, detail, etc. on the PS4. Those differences don't need to be shown on a larger TV to be able to see the differences and we are still not even a year into the cycle.

I look back at the PS360 gen and distinctly remember the lens of truth and digital foundry comparisons and all of this talk about how you should buy a 360 for multiplat games. Yet now it's irrelevant, and it probably has to do with (IMO) the differences over say 640p vs 540p are much more pronounced than even 900p vs 1080p.

That's what I'm rolling with anyway.
 
Freebo said:
I have xbox one and gtx 780 in my pc. IDK im still impressed with how the xbox plays and looks. I dont expect the world from it so im happy with it. I like the UI of xbox over ps thats one of the reasons why i picked it.
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QFT. I have a 760GTX and I play my xbox more nowadays, but I blame that on Killer Instinct. BTW, did any fans see the EVO panel about season 2? Very very interesting. Welp, I'm off to play KI 2013 on my XB1 and then some BF4 on my PC. You fellas have fun arguing over specs. I'm going to play games.
 
Super-D said:
Seconded.

The Watergate scandal was over 40 years ago. Even when it was still relevant and people still cared, adding "-gate" to anything to make it sound scandalous was not clever or amusing. I wish the media would let that cliche die already.
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I also agree. The left wing propaganda brings up that term to remind people of Nixon for every scandal. It was just one tapped phone. Now the Obama administration has tapped a billion phones.
 
BladeVenom said:
I also agree. The left wing propaganda brings up that term to remind people of Nixon for every scandal. It was just one tapped phone. Now the Obama administration has tapped a billion phones.
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That's cause everyone these days is busy calling Snowden and Manning traitors instead of mobilizing to protect their democracy these days after all the information they could need to do so got spoon-fed to them.
 
A difference you can only see by sitting three feet from your tv and looking for it isn't a real difference.

It's also way too early to judge how it's going to pan out, first generation/launch games from new consoles are always a very mixed bag, and neither console is showing it's best yet.

It'll also vary from dev to dev, some will just be stronger on one platform than the other.

Given the basically PC nature of the PS4 and XB1 hardware the learning curve for devs is likely much shallower than for the weird shit that was in last gen consoles, but it's going to be another 12 to 18months or more before we see true "native" games (stuff developed from scratch on mostly final hardware/software), and I'm betting even the zoomed in screenshots we need to tell the difference now won't be able to see a difference at that point.

The PS4 is always going to have a slight edge because of the more game friendly GPU/RAM configuration, but any marginal difference that exists in the early titles is only going to get narrower as SDKs mature and Devs get more familiar with the various foibles of the systems and optimising for them.
 
"I defy you to really see the difference. I personally struggle to see the difference."

This is what you say when you know you have the inferior product.
 
"Perception challenge" - I LOVE IT. This could have come in handy back in high school.

Mom: "Oh looks like you got a C in french"
Me: "No, you're have a PERCEPTION CHALLENGE. If you squint your eyes enough it'll become an A. See?"
 
Steve said:
Really?

My son has both and, for the first few weeks they were out we thought it was funny to have people over and try to guess which was which on a 60" Samsung. It was HILARIOUS watching fanboys pick the wrong version. :D

Adults can actually make a drinking game out of it. Pick the "wrong" console and you have to do a shot.

Biggest problem now? No games. Both are just collecting dust in my son's room :(
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Yep same here. Had a BBQ a month or so ago and out of almost 2 dozen people no one could really see any differences between the two or in the case of Ghosts thought the X1 version looked better. I can tell but it isn't as huge of a deal as people make it out to be. I don't pause my games and sit there and look for every little minute detail to make my impression.

Do the games look good and play good is all that matters. Currently both the X1 and PS4 are collecting dust; however, the Wii U gets played a few times a week by myself and the wife.
 
Remember when they were arguing that there wasn't going to be a meaningful difference? Now they've been proven wrong and are arguing the difference isn't so important. That's now disingenuous Microsoft's marketing department is and they're still backpedaling like mad.

Microsoft's biggest issue is not the perception that their system is less powerful than the competition(and it is), it's the perception that they're trying to rip off their customers as much as they can get away with (because they are). They're so bad that it makes Sony look good, and that's damn hard. Sony is a company that has practically destroyed themselves with bad customer service and anti-consumer policies.
 
It is NOT perception it is reality. You don't change reality you are not steve jobs. What you do is accept that your shit stinks and lower the price. Xbone with Kinect $399 get over it and do the job that should have been done from the start.
 
crusty_juggler said:
I won't link to them, but it's downright hilarious watching anti-MS hivemind forums like Neo Gaf go completely apeshit over an XBOX exec stating facts about video resolution.
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Could you post (or PM) the link to Neogaf?
 
I agree. No difference.

Anything upscaled is going to look like crap. Period.

Render at the natural panel resolution, or GTFO.
 
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