Surface Pro 3 (5/20/14)

Yeah if you're planning on using the tablet for any serious computing stuff, wait for the i7. Whilst the i5 is fine for most everyday tasks, if you're planning on using this for photoshop/graphical tasks, wait for the i7!
 
cbutters said:
heatless.... I knew I'd find you in this thread. :)

you still holding out for the i7 version? I really want HD graphics 5000 as it should offer a substantial bump in graphical performance:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7072/intel-hd-5000-vs-hd-4000-vs-hd-4400
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Deinos said:
If you have a good machine and no immediate need, I would wait on the i7. HD5000 seems like a must if you are going to do anything fairly serious on it.
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Afkap said:
Yeah if you're planning on using the tablet for any serious computing stuff, wait for the i7. Whilst the i5 is fine for most everyday tasks, if you're planning on using this for photoshop/graphical tasks, wait for the i7!
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Did you guys read that review? The graphics performance boost between 4400 and 5000 averages less than 15%. The i7, despite having twice the graphics cores, is only marginally faster. The delay and increased cost is pretty hard to justify imo.
 
i7 gets a minor iGPU bump but trades off a lower 1.7GHz CPU clock rate vs i5's 1.9GHz. IMHO, not worth the premium while i5 is the sweet spot. The best thing that can happen is they get 14nm Broadwell in time along with correcting the home button to make it physical to prevent false touches when penning in landscape, redesign the pen to take common AAA batteries so you can use rechargeable Sanyo Eneloop and top it off with a Samsung OLED display. Even in its current form it's much better and smarter than the pixelated and cheap aluminum Macbook Air from playing around with a store demo yesterday.
 
Anand (Anandtech) apparently tweeted that the Surface Pro 3 will throttle under extended load. Will be interesting to see what the full test data is, as the other review sites that have had the device are more mainstream oriented and didn't (and won't) really test for such details.

Bobalias_LeShay said:
Did you guys read that review? The graphics performance boost between 4400 and 5000 averages less than 15%. The i7, despite having twice the graphics cores, is only marginally faster. The delay and increased cost is pretty hard to justify imo.
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Actually the numbers were for the HD 4000 (Ivybridge era) vs. the HD5000. So the delta between the HD4400 (on the i5-4300u) would be even less.

Keep in mind though that is for gaming performance and notice the much larger delta for Tomb Raider. HD5000 is constrained by two aspects, TDP and memory bandwidth. Without the eDRAM package on Iris Pro parts, HD5000 would still have the same bandwidth as HD4400. Gaming also tends to hit both the CPU and GPU hard and TDP limits also come into play, and both the i5 and i7 share the same TDP.

So what about productivity applications like Photoshop and other Adobe products (which use GPU acceleration) then which offer a different workload? It's said the HD5000 shows a much larger delta for that type of workload however I haven't really seen any actual testing data to fully support this and illustrate what the difference would be.

So the actual real world difference might be hard to definitely quantify without more information. Also you might ask if you are working on something that is too much for the i5-4300u will the i7-4650u be much better? Or will you be at a point where you are better off with a more full blown performance device with 4 cores, 16gb+ ram, and a discrete graphics card?

mi7chy said:
i7 gets a minor iGPU bump but trades off a lower 1.7GHz CPU clock rate vs i5's 1.9GHz. IMHO, not worth the premium while i5 is the sweet spot. The best thing that can happen is they get 14nm Broadwell in time along with correcting the home button to make it physical to prevent false touches when penning in landscape, redesign the pen to take common AAA batteries so you can use rechargeable Sanyo Eneloop and top it off with a Samsung OLED display. Even in its current form it's much better and smarter than the pixelated and cheap aluminum Macbook Air from playing around with a store demo yesterday.
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I think this is another issue with the i7 argument. We are already rather late into Haswell's life cycle and now have much more concrete information on Broadwell delivery dates from Intel. We also know historically Intel has targeted graphics improvements more heavily with their "Ticks" and information regarding Broadwell seems to show this as well. We also historically know now that Microsoft is not adverse to product updates and is following a rather aggressive upgrade cycle for it's Surface Pro line. What will the delay actually be? If it's long at what point would you just not say wait for Broadwell (who's gap in GPU performance and overall performance would be much larger)?

Regarding the batteries a concern would be pen size and weight, so there is a tradeoff.

As for OLED screens, keep in mind at this point even Samsung has not launched larger OLEDs for the mass market. The economies currently for larger OLED displays and smaller ones (even the Note 3 for instance is much smaller) is quite different. Also in general it is believed that Samsung will not offer current generation OLED technology to a third party but only n-1 OLEDs. You can notice why for instance third parties who have OLED screens supplied by Samsung are all 720p.
 
Yeah, if you've followed OLED in any serious capacity, you know that a 12-inch OLED display on a big tablet or laptop currently isn't practical. Even the leaked Galaxy Tab S tops out at a 10-inch display, and we don't know how much of a premium this device will carry over an equivalent Galaxy Tab Pro. If a Galaxy Tab S 10.5 costs, say, $599 (i.e. $100 over a Tab Pro), then an OLED Surface Pro 3 would have a stratospheric price tag... assuming it's technically feasible at all.
 
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Bobalias_LeShay said:
Did you guys read that review? The graphics performance boost between 4400 and 5000 averages less than 15%. The i7, despite having twice the graphics cores, is only marginally faster. The delay and increased cost is pretty hard to justify imo.
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Here's the problem with that review, it's not really comparing the HD4400 to the HD5000, it's comparing an Asus with a MBA. It might be comparable or it night not be depending on how each company configured their systems, specifically dual channel RAM. If the HD5000 is RAM starved and the MBA only uses one channel then yeah, double the cores won't do much good, esp if the Asus models do use dual channel RAM. I couldn't find anything specifically stating one way or another on the MBA.

Since we know the Surface Pros DO use dual channel RAM we'll know when the i7's launch just how big the performance difference between the HD4400 and HD5000 really is (or isn't)
 
-Dragon- said:
Here's the problem with that review, it's not really comparing the HD4400 to the HD5000, it's comparing an Asus with a MBA. It might be comparable or it night not be depending on how each company configured their systems, specifically dual channel RAM. If the HD5000 is RAM starved and the MBA only uses one channel then yeah, double the cores won't do much good, esp if the Asus models do use dual channel RAM. I couldn't find anything specifically stating one way or another on the MBA.

Since we know the Surface Pros DO use dual channel RAM we'll know when the i7's launch just how big the performance difference between the HD4400 and HD5000 really is (or isn't)
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The Macbook Air uses dual channel memory as well. It's actually slightly faster (DDR1600 vs DDR1333) than the Acer (not Asus :p).

Although this also introduces other factors (like OS, API, and chassis differences) so you can also look at a Macbook Air vs. Macbook air comparison -
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7085/the-2013-macbook-air-review-13inch/4

But this could still have API/OS differences (which might limit performance differences).

At the same time however there is some hints at the moment the SP3 might throttle itself under sustained load (such as gaming) but whether or not this is due to cooling limitation or software limitations or a combination of both isn't clear yet. This could further limit performance variance outside of burst situations.
 
So the performance difference will probably more isn't than is. Oh well as long as the i7 SP3 can perform about the same as a i5 SP2 I'll be happy as my SP2 is plenty fast.
 
Considering Samsung is releasing a 10.5" OLED tablet a 12" is doable. I would pay a reasonable premium for a Surface or Galaxy Premium 12" Windows hybrid with precision pen.
 
Why is it that the Surface is still the only tablet with a built-in kickstand? It's the best way to go about it.

Covers that convert into stands are so incredibly awkward and annoying to keep folded back when you're actually using the tablet.
 
I pre-ordered the i5 SP3 with the 18% off deal recently. I have been much less impressed with my ipad since iOS 7. Also tired of iTunes lock-in and constant updates. I feel like the quality of Apple interfaces has gone down in the last year, also the quality of product - Safari still crashes a lot.

I played with the demo SP3 at the MS store last weekend when they came in and it seems pretty good. Yeah, slightly heavier than the ipad air, but it has a built in stand, so we'll see if it's a plausible ipad replacement. Not going to get a touch cover right now.
 
I tried the SP3, and I do like it over SP2. The Achilles's heel of SP2 to me is the craptacular camera (makes for awkward workflow during notetaking,) which is not an issue with SP3.

The problem I have now is whether or not if I should jump to SP3 now or to hold out till Broadwell...
 
I played with the SP3 at a best buy, I have to say it is a very good device. I had very little to complain about. I am not much of a sissy book user so I cant say I would buy one myself. But I do recommend it. One question I have is how serviceable is the battery? It was also very light and thin, ridiculous that we can fit all that power in a form factor that small now days. Intel should be show casing this thing. I know its technically sealed but is replacing it going to be ridiculous or doable for a reasonable price?

The main complaints I have are, I am not aware of a battery cover, would be an important option given the sealed battery. And the accessories are just still so expensive. If you really want to deck this thing out its going to be an extra $400-500, battery cover, $200, various adapters for video output etc., dock $200

Another perhaps minor complaint was that the display while pretty dense had some obvious lines in it. They reminded me of early OLED displays where you could see on a flat color that their were some vertical bands of sorts. Something that likely would not be picked up in any tests of display quality. And probably something you would never notice if you were using a different OS, but the flat nature of windows 8 tiles allowed me to observe it.

A personal opinion, I really liked the blue type cover, its a darker blue than before and it looks good. Normally I always buy black but I could do that, and their was a theme you could pick that looked great with it.
 
rudy said:
I played with the SP3 at a best buy, I have to say it is a very good device. I had very little to complain about. I am not much of a sissy book user so I cant say I would buy one myself. But I do recommend it. One question I have is how serviceable is the battery? It was also very light and thin, ridiculous that we can fit all that power in a form factor that small now days. Intel should be show casing this thing. I know its technically sealed but is replacing it going to be ridiculous or doable for a reasonable price?
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It's likely sealed similar to the Surface Pro/Pro 2. Otherwise no one can say until someone actually does a dis-assembly. It might be easier though since I believe MS actually offers to service and replace the battery for a free with the SP3 while for the SP1/SP2 it did not and would only replace the entire device for a larger fee.

Intel at Computex showcased their upcoming Intel Core M line (based on 14nm Broadwell) with the 7.3mm thick Asus T300 Chi - http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/02/asus-transformer-book-t300-chi/
 
rudy said:
I am not much of a sissy book user so I cant say I would buy one myself.
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This may be a troll but I'm going to bite. "Sissy book", really?
rudy said:
And the accessories are just still so expensive. If you really want to deck this thing out its going to be an extra $400-500, battery cover, $200, various adapters for video output etc., dock $200
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A stock 8+ hour battery isn't good enough? It has Displayport video output, the same as any recent Macbook and many windows laptops as well, your existing adapters to HDMI, DVI, or VGA will work just fine. I can see the value of a dock if you were going to use this as your main machine, but a cheap USB3 hub would serve just fine for most use cases. Only 1 USB port is sad, they should have tried to shoehorn a second in there.

By my math that means you need perhaps a dock, but not of the other things you mention. (The keyboard cover of course being a must.)
 
Bobalias_LeShay said:
This may be a troll but I'm going to bite. "Sissy book", really?

A stock 8+ hour battery isn't good enough? It has Displayport video output, the same as any recent Macbook and many windows laptops as well, your existing adapters to HDMI, DVI, or VGA will work just fine. I can see the value of a dock if you were going to use this as your main machine, but a cheap USB3 hub would serve just fine for most use cases. Only 1 USB port is sad, they should have tried to shoehorn a second in there.

By my math that means you need perhaps a dock, but not of the other things you mention. (The keyboard cover of course being a must.)
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I have never used any device by apple or otherwise that actually lasted as long as the claimed time. Second what ever rating they have is actually just a rating for when you buy it with a brand new battery. Overtime a battery looses its charge I find about 20% is gone by a year in good cases. In bad cases its worse, these batteries often crash and burn around the 2 year mark. So the extended battery would be important for my work loads and a replaceable battery would allow me to keep using it for several years or be able to sell it. Sealed batteries are planned obsolescence. But at the very least if they had a battery cover it could be an option for keeping a device with a bad battery running longer.

As for the other things I don't really think its your place to decide for me what I want. If I wanted the not so elegant and fast ways to dock sure I could buy anything, heck I could probably strap a bunch of wires to my phone. At the very least MS should offer some sort of discount for people who want to deck it out, like a pro bundle for $300 that has all that stuff.
 
rudy said:
At the very least MS should offer some sort of discount for people who want to deck it out, like a pro bundle for $300 that has all that stuff.
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Not really sure where you're coming up with the numbers you are. They Type Cover is $130 and the dock will be $200 I believe. I can see the Type Cover being included but I don't know of any laptops where a desktop dock is included in any kind of bundle.
 
I think the markup on these is astronomical something they are pulling from their console business.... And it wouldn't hurt them any to sacrifice a bit of that. I mean seriously do you think that dock is worth $200, you can buy an entire computer for that price.
 
Bobalias_LeShay said:
Now I'm sure it's a troll. Most consoles are sold at a loss. :confused:
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I assume he is referring to the pricing of accessories and addons for consoles, which do carry heavy markup and very high margins, as he is complaining about the cost of Surface Pro 3 accessories and addons.

Although with the Surface Pro 3, one should be looking at how it compares to other competitors accessories and addons.

I do find the Surface Pro line has always carried a rather hefty margin for higher memory and storage. People have brought up for example how it scales even worse than Macbooks from Apple (which most consider very high markup).
 
Kueller said:
Anyone else slightly disappointed MS didn't include a thunderbolt port? The ability to hook up thunderbolt devices could've really taken the SP3 to the next level as far as being the One Machine to rule them all. Dreaming of an external GTX780...
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limitedaccess said:
I assume he is referring to the pricing of accessories and addons for consoles, which do carry heavy markup and very high margins, as he is complaining about the cost of Surface Pro 3 accessories and addons.

Although with the Surface Pro 3, one should be looking at how it compares to other competitors accessories and addons.

I do find the Surface Pro line has always carried a rather hefty margin for higher memory and storage. People have brought up for example how it scales even worse than Macbooks from Apple (which most consider very high markup).
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Have to agree, the upgrade prices are pretty riduclous.
$200 for the first 64GB of flash upgrade.
$300 for 4GB of ram and 128GB flash.
$250 for a $112 CPU upgrade. Intel conveniently lists 1k Tray prices for the i5-4300u ($281) and i7-4600u ($393).

Going to be interesting to see what Ifixit discovers when they tear one of these apart. A $500 markup for 4GB ram and 192GB flash is quite an incentive to attempt putting my own cheap 256GB SSD in there. Of course the SSD is probably soldered on this time around.
 
Deinos said:
Looks like MS met with Gabe over at Penny Arcade to discuss some fixes based on the issues he had with his review device. Looks like a lot of improvements, but the pen lag still exists as he draws the comic.
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Thanks for the link, very interesting read. Looks like Microsoft is trying pretty hard here to smooth out the issues and is making decent progress. Will be interesting to see how long it takes for these to get out into the field. I'm waiting for the i7 which is still two months out, but maybe that's for the better to get things a bit more polished.
 
Was a little concerned about not receiving any notification so close to release date but finally got shipping confirmation just now.

After thorough analysis SP3 is the best device currently on the market for creativity, productivity and consumption compared to my Android devices, iPad, Thinkpad laptop and also Macbooks that I've tried.

Weighs about the same as my consumption only iPad2. For a device that requires two hands 12" like the Note and Tab pro 12.2 is more optimal while 10" is too tiny and kind of useless.
For consumption: SP3 scores 9 out of 10, Android devices 8/10, iPad 6/10.

MacBook Air has poor pixelated resolution so it's not even worthy of comparison.

MacBook Pro Retina 13" is a closer match but is heavier, more expensive, lacks touch and precision pen intelligence and doesn't have access to the wealth of professional Windows software.
Creativity: SP3 9/10, MacBook Pro Retina 5/10
Productivity: SP3 9/10, MacBook Pro Retina 7/10
Consumption: SP3 9/10, MacBook Pro Retina 7/10

Only drawbacks of SP3 and MacBook Pro Retina are the keyboard isn't as nice and tactile as Thinkpad and they lack the Touchpoint nub which is much more efficient for a fast typist since you don't have to move your hands far away from the home keys to use as compared to touchpad.
 
An iPad 2 is 1.3 pounds... a Surface Pro 3 is 1.8. How the hell do you get this "weighs about the same" crap? That's a gigantic difference, and that doesn't include the Surface's keyboard. And yes, I've used both without any kind of tethering. Can you say the same?

Sounds like this 'thorough' analysis is more an excuse to dump on Apple, facts be damned, before you've even spent ten minutes with a Pro 3.
 
Actually it's 1.33# vs 1.76#. Unless you put it on a scale they both feel about the same in hand as far as the SP3 demo in-store. The difference in weight, 0.43#, is the weight of my Note II phone which is barely nothing. Sounds like you need to hit the gym and those 5# weights.

Keyboard is optional like on the iPad since you can use virtual keyboard or the SP3's superior pen writing to text. With the MacBook the keyboard is permanently attached like a siamese twin.

Speaking of weight, to mimic the SP3 you would need to haul around a Macbook Pro Retina 13", iPad Air and Intuos Pro medium which all add up to about 6.66#. That you will definitely feel in weight and wallet.
 
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mi7chy said:
Speaking of weight, to mimic the SP3 you would need to haul around a Macbook Pro Retina 13", iPad Air and Intuos Pro medium which all add up to about 6.66#. That you will definitely feel in weight and wallet.
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Sounds like you need to hit the gym ohlolololol
 
rflcptr said:
Your assumption is that people aim to "mimic" the SP3. They do not. :)
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Which is fine because a lot of Macbooks are used as glorified consumption iPad without touch for Facebook. Even the decade old clamshell design like MacBook or even Sony VAIO Z505 ultra I had in ~2001 can do that.
 
So darn light I thought they mistakenly shipped me two covers. Saving the comments until I've played with it some but initial impression is awesome. Screen real estate confirms what I've always thought that 10" is tiny and useless for two handed tablet.

20140620_154239_zps24c7ca6f.jpg
 
Really thought this thing would be sold out initially, all my LA area frys and best buy show in Stock. Online at tigerdirect too.
 
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