NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

MertArm said:
I was looking for the perfect (and smallest) mATX case that I could use for an mATX X99 build in the future and the best/smallest case I could find was the Silverstone TJ08-E. I would've really loved to build in this case, but it doesn't have support for a 240mm rad, and there isn't much fan support.

I was wondering if you guys ever considered making an mATX version of the Ncase M1. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about just adding another slot. What I want is all the dimensions of the case to be extended enough to fit an mATX motherboard, an ATX power supply with modular plugs, and 4 slots.
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There's a comment from Necere linked in the OP as to why that would cease to be an M1.

Seems to me many mATX cases exist in vaguely tower format (like the BitFenix Colossus). Even black, aluminum ones. Are you just asking for a tower style, mATX case, with the M1's aesthetics?
 
Geoffrey4283 said:
There's a comment from Necere linked in the OP as to why that would cease to be an M1.

Seems to me many mATX cases exist in vaguely tower format (like the BitFenix Colossus). Even black, aluminum ones. Are you just asking for a tower style, mATX case, with the M1's aesthetics?
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I think that what a lot of people are talking about when they talk M2. They want Necere to design something as awesome as the M1 in a different FF, not necessarily squeezing and stretching the M1 to fit a different FF. Compared to what this case started as and how it ended up I am sure others want to see what W360 and Necere can do with another uses case.

That said what made the M1 so special was that some of its greatest strengths brought on as requirements to fit certain hardware in such a limited FF. I think unless some really great approaches where taken that we can't even think of, a different case might lose some of luster and support because it becomes more of a different style on run of the mill case when the form factor lends itself to that hardware.

That said there are people asking for an mATX M1. I if they had a v1 M1 on the hands to look at it an imagined it 1/3 taller and twice as long (what it would take). It wouldn't be anywhere as cool a case.
 
MertArm said:
... the best/smallest case I could find was the Silverstone TJ08-E. I would've really loved to build in this case, but it doesn't have support for a 240mm rad, and there isn't much fan support.
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There is the Silverstone PS07 which is almost identical to the TJ08e but with mounting for 240 rad and also they removed the odd looking 3.5" drive slot in the bottom.
 
WiSK said:
There is the Silverstone PS07 which is almost identical to the TJ08e but with mounting for 240 rad and also they removed the odd looking 3.5" drive slot in the bottom.
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Oh, I forgot about this case. This is perfect, thanks!
 
MertArm said:
I was wondering if you guys ever considered making an mATX version of the Ncase M1. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about just adding another slot. What I want is all the dimensions of the case to be extended enough to fit an mATX motherboard, an ATX power supply with modular plugs, and 4 slots.
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Thing is, when you mock it up, it becomes apparent that the layout doesn't lend itself to a very efficient use of space once expanded to accommodate mATX and 160mm modular ATX PSUs. Compared to the M1 layout:



The case becomes long enough that a 360mm rad could fit on the side, but on the other hand, that space at the front and the top can't be used for much. Another rad on top, maybe, but the front is too short for a 120mm fan and not really deep enough for drives. It's clear to me, at least, that other layouts would work better here.
 
It might work a bit better if the ATX PSU was mounted the same way as in the M1, with the fan bracket limited to 1x180mm.

Basically, a width-optimized version of the SG09/10.

Although, looking at how much space is wasted above the motherboard, it might be better to just put the PSU at the traditional location at the top or bottom rear.
 
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vipz said:
Although, looking at how much space is wasted above the motherboard, it might be better to just put the PSU at the traditional location at the top or bottom rear.
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Exactly. It's only another 35mm to the height, with the possibility of reducing the depth. But then what have you got? A pretty standard layout, overall. Little different from a TJ08-E/PS07.
 
I see where you are going with the formfactor.

If I could wish for an Mx. I would love to see you guys have a go at a HTPC style chassi. I see a lot designs coming out for steam boxes, but they all lack the finesse you guys would give it. I would also love a NAS-chassi, but the market is pretty small for those.

But right now Im just thankful you guys give us the M1. Its really an amazing piece of hardware.
 
Necere: how do you see the "Steambox" / PC console format as a possible challenge to improve ?
Because we don't really have any sexy cases in that department yet and it might make for an even more space-efficient Ncase.
 
Phuncz said:
Necere: how do you see the "Steambox" / PC console format as a possible challenge to improve ?
Because we don't really have any sexy cases in that department yet and it might make for an even more space-efficient Ncase.
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I like the idea, and have been experimenting with it for a while now, but it does have some unique challenges. Assuming you want to use off-the-shelf parts and want to keep it under, say, 16-18L or so, there's basically one layout that works. And the smaller you go, the less flexibility you have and the more it ends up looking like a clone of Valve's Steam Machine. Not that there's anything wrong with that, necessarily. Just don't expect, you know, somehow managing to fit a full watercooling loop or something. Even with the RVZ01, which is twice the volume of the Steam Machine and was designed to support a full water loop, no one (that I've seen) has managed to do it.

I think if we were to pursue a Steam Machine-style case, my inclination is to make it as small as reasonably possible using off-the-shelf parts, rather than trying for the oversized RVZ01/Bolt 2 style case with a dual-rad shoehorned in. It would also mean no optical and 2.5" storage only. However, being a less "extreme" case, it might make it tougher to sell for what we'd have to ask for it, given our high-cost, low-volume production capacity. Consider that materially it might be close to the M1, but then there's the added cost of the PCIe riser and it does make you wonder if we could get it done without pricing it out of reach. I speculate that cost is part of the reason why Digital Storm has elected not to sell the Bolt2 case alone; including the customized 1U PSU, I could see it pushing $250+ by itself.
 
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Phuncz said:
Necere: how do you see the "Steambox" / PC console format as a possible challenge to improve ?
Because we don't really have any sexy cases in that department yet and it might make for an even more space-efficient Ncase.
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In terms of space efficiency, I don't think anyone can top Valve's own prototype.

The problem I see with Valve's prototype is its limited hardware support and dependency on custom parts.

The question is, how much room is there for improvements in those areas, without making the case significantly bigger?
 
Necere said:
I could see it pushing $250+ by itself.
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250 isnt much for a limited edition case with top build quality. Especially when that case probably has all the features you always wanted but somehow all the other manufacturers wants you to compromise on. I would however only keep toying with ideas for now. The steam box could stir up a lot of change from hardware producers and you probably want to see what those changes are. Also the design will be very different if the case is to handle hardware for streaming games, or actually running the games. But seeing some of the big boxes shown at CES. The M1 is already one of the best steam boxes out there.

But I will certainly join your indiegogo or kickstarter or fundedbywhatever when you do decide to go for it. And I would probably pay more than 250. Im sorry if I sound like a rich bastard, Im not rich at all, but I spend money on sound and the TV, why not spend some money on a sexy PC to go with it.
 
Bakkone said:
The M1 is already one of the best steam boxes out there.
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Although many will point out that purpose-built Steamboxes are meant to be "console-shaped" - which is to say, flat, so they fit in alongside other boxes in a TV cabinet - I couldn't agree more with you. And that's because I'm beginning to think that local streaming (over a home network) is the revolution PC gaming will seek out in order to enter the living room, if Valve and nVidia's recent forays are any indication.

Consider how great it could be: You can have your traditional desktop (of any size or shape) wherever is most convenient in your household, and it fulfills everything you ask of a desktop computer today - expandability, customizability, multi-use flexibility, etc. But, the moment you want to sit in a couch, relax, and play with a controller, you boot up an inexpensive hockey-puck-like dongle (or, heck, perhaps even just an application on one you already own), and now you have tangibly the same experience as if you hooked your computer up directly. It's simultaneously powerful and convenient in a way dedicated Steamboxes under the TV can't be.

What makes the M1 the "best" (IMHO) within this use case is that, even as a "traditional" desktop, it's still a portable computer if you ever do need to physically take it with you someplace. Yet, you can still fit most of the components (and cooling) that you'd ever want to inside it, to the point where today you can just about saturate all the performance headroom there is at 1080p resolution in current titles. So there's basically no longer any real opportunity cost by going with a SFF system for HD gaming, at least when you're using the M1.

I mean, for me, that's just perfect. I get the best possible TV gaming experience, I get a very powerful desktop for work and leisure, and it's all wrapped up in a small, stylish case, that I can put wherever I want to, and easily take with me should the need arise. All the while, I have an easy time upgrading components, and encounter very few restrictions regarding component choice, given what I plan to use it for.

(...I apologize for the incredible tangent I just drove the thread onto, so I'll stop talking now ;) But this concept really is quite exciting!)
 
Necere said:
Thing is, when you mock it up, it becomes apparent that the layout doesn't lend itself to a very efficient use of space once expanded to accommodate mATX and 160mm modular ATX PSUs. Compared to the M1 layout:



The case becomes long enough that a 360mm rad could fit on the side, but on the other hand, that space at the front and the top can't be used for much. Another rad on top, maybe, but the front is too short for a 120mm fan and not really deep enough for drives. It's clear to me, at least, that other layouts would work better here.
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Just for kicks: what if you put the PSU bottom front (like the BitFenix Colossus M), but keep the mobo layout of the M1 (inverted compared to the Colossus), and then move the rad to the top? Are there any production cases today that have a layout like this?



Maintain essentially the same width as the M1, only increasing the height and depth.

Problems I see:
1. 264mm height probably won't cut it; I didn't include the fans for the rad in my mockup, which are going to absorb a lot of the space and be competing with the plugs coming out of the PSU.
2. PSU is going to need to get air from the front, meaning front vents for good airflow (which is what I dislike the most about the SG09/10), or side vents on the front panel, which are usually pretty restrictive, and then exhaust out the bottom (I don't like making bottom-venting mandatory for operation).
3. Flexibility in terms of graphics card length will have to be sacrificed to keep a lid on the length; not exactly options in this layout like the M1 has today (short PSU vs long, utilization of the cut-out in the front panel as needed)
4. I'm not sure where to begin in terms of storage. Up top in the rad space if you're air-cooling, and side-panel mounted above the CPU if you're water-cooling?
5. Would air-cooling the graphics even be an option in a setup like this? I don't think I'd be comfortable with it.
 
Naaah, for mATX I'd go for a classical layout with a small footprint. Take the "Abee AS Enclosure DX3". Remove the full-size ODD, get rid of the drive cage and the wasted space at the top and you have nice "little" case for high-end hardware.

The problem here is really the footprint. The "NCASE M1" is already quite long, although it is almost as short as it could be. A case that I want to put on my table shouldn't have a much larger footprint than the M1 (luckily the M1 did not become another "show box"), But that leaves you with just one option: A case that is higher than it is long.
 
Bakkone said:
I see where you are going with the formfactor.

If I could wish for an Mx. I would love to see you guys have a go at a HTPC style chassi. I see a lot designs coming out for steam boxes, but they all lack the finesse you guys would give it. I would also love a NAS-chassi, but the market is pretty small for those.
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An Ncase M1 styled HTPC, like this?

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Credit goes to MiketheTiger
 
MertArm said:
An Ncase M1 styled HTPC, like this?

Credit goes to MiketheTiger
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actually it is my cheap fake. Credit goes to Necere :D

Though he already mentioned, that he doesn't really like such designs with pcie riser cards :(

I think I would even buy one without any pcie slots. iGPU might be enough for a Steambox/HTPC build :)
 
Geoffrey4283 said:
Just for kicks: what if you put the PSU bottom front (like the BitFenix Colossus M), but keep the mobo layout of the M1 (inverted compared to the Colossus), and then move the rad to the top? Are there any production cases today that have a layout like this?
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One of the issues with a design like this is the lack of intake fans (assuming the top is exhaust). Makes it negative pressure which = dust problems. The other thing is with the rad next to the motherboard like that it makes the case wider. The M1 at 160mm is the absolute minimum width to allow a 92mm fan on the back. A 120mm fan (plus room for a rad, which are often a few mm wider then their fans) would bump that to at least 190mm. And you still wouldn't have room for back-of-motherboard cable management. Not necessarily a problem, just something to be aware of.

MertArm said:
An Ncase M1 styled HTPC, like this?
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As decent as that looks, the layout unfortunately doesn't work that well internally. It's also not ideally suited to standing vertically, which I think is a useful feature for a case like this.

milkcow said:
actually it is my cheap fake. Credit goes to Necere :D

Though he already mentioned, that he doesn't really like such designs with pcie riser cards :(
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I'd be very surprised if I've ever said anything like that. I've talked about the challenges of designing that style of case, but I don't think I've said I don't like them.


As an aside, for those (im)patiently waiting for the launch of v2 preorders, I can say with a good degree of certainty that it is very close now.
 
Necere said:
As an aside, for those (im)patiently waiting for the launch of v2 preorders, I can say with a good degree of certainty that it is very close now.
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...The forum post that inspired thousands to immediately double-check their account balances... ;)
 
This actually brings up an interesting question: Will the launch of the website be pre-announced? That is, will we know when pre-ordering goes live beforehand?
 
Necere said:
W360's been on the road, which was why it wasn't updated earlier.

I'm currently trying to figure out how to let people choose a shipping method and then charge the correct international shipping rates. Nothing is ever as simple as you'd hope. It's the last hurdle though before we can start taking orders.
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Will you also allow people to buy additional parts, such as extra panels, panel clips, extra screws, HDD mount etc? May be good to have judging from the number of posts about these things, although whether it is logistically possible I don't know.
 
lazimutha said:
Will you also allow people to buy additional parts, such as extra panels, panel clips, extra screws, HDD mount etc? May be good to have judging from the number of posts about these things, although whether it is logistically possible I don't know.
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See, from the FAQ:

PlayfulPhoenix said:
What comes with the M1? What's new in Rev 2?
  • Other than the chassis and panels, Necere has provided a pictorial guide of the screws, brackets, and various included hardware that comes with the case. In addition, Rev 2 will also come with some extra SSD mounting screws and panel clips.
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Not sure about extra panels, however. I know that for Rev 1, you could buy top panels without the ODD slot - I would imagine (and hope) you'd at least be able to do that for Rev 2 as well.
 
PlayfulPhoenix said:
This actually brings up an interesting question: Will the launch of the website be pre-announced? That is, will we know when pre-ordering goes live beforehand?
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Not planning on doing that, because we're basically launching ASAP. No sense in saying we're launching at x time and then delaying for no reason. And estimating how long some factor will take to work out can be a crapshoot as well; we'd hate to promise and then fail to deliver.

lazimutha said:
Will you also allow people to buy additional parts, such as extra panels, panel clips, extra screws, HDD mount etc? May be good to have judging from the number of posts about these things, although whether it is logistically possible I don't know.
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It's something that we're definitely considering trying for, but it won't be until a bit later on. We'd need a proper shopping cart integrated with the site, for one thing.
 
Thanks Necere! Really enjoying the case you designed and would definitely buy spares as I'm gonna keep this case for a long, long, long, long time.


@PlayfulPhoenix, sorry my post may have been confusing. I meant additional parts for current (and future) owners rather than Rev.2 only. But thanks for your post as I have been looking for that pictorial guide for ages. Must have missed it on the front page, duh. I used all sorts of words to search the thread: key, guide, screws etc., but no luck :eek:
 
lazimutha said:
Thanks Necere! Really enjoying the case you designed and would definitely buy spares as I'm gonna keep this case for a long, long, long, long time.
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Same here! And if for some reason you guys don't wanna deal with selling and stocking individual M1 parts (or parts kits).. maybe at least try and work out a deal with Lian Li and see if Performance-PCs and FrozenCPU would be interested in selling them.

Since both retailers stock the Demci M1 filter kit and other Lian-Li spares, I'm sure that would be right up their alley.
 
Any chance we could get the panels in Silver, for those of us who got the case in black? I mean: panels only, not the rest of the case...
 
prava said:
Any chance we could get the panels in Silver, for those of us who got the case in black? I mean: panels only, not the rest of the case...
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Extra parts/accessories are something we'll try to make available at some point.
 
Some feedback I got from a couple non-SFF-enthusiast friends: some random items for scale would make it easier to tell the size of the case at first glance.
 
I would like to order both a silver and black case together to save on shipping. Could you make this possible?
 
Just ordered a black M1 with ODD slot :)
BTW the email went straight to spam (Gmail) so people might not see it.
 
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