Unofficial DirectX 12 FAQ

Nor do you, but let me give you a hint. DX12 is NOT mantle.

Common sense would dictate this if you look at all the facts (most hardware not GCN, AMD doesn't have DX12 drivers, AMD or MS never stated Mantle = DX12, etc) But. It's nearly useless to tell anyone that. It's like arguing with some religious person that clearly has their views set in stone. Endless circumstantial non factual circular argument ensues. Not that I have any problem with religion, it's completely okay in my book. Obviously nobody believes in all religions, if they do believe in one. But just an analogy. Telling him his errors is just a never ending circular argument with someone who truly believes in their lord and savior. Erm, I mean truly believes in AMD. The lord and savior AMD.

All that said, I think it's completely plausible that bits and pieces of Mantle are being used within DX12 for GCN hardware. The gist I get is that the lessened abstraction layer does require brand specific optimizations, not the least of which would obviously include GCN. So perhaps bits and pieces are there for that. But those bits and pieces cannot be used with nvidia, intel, and others which are not GCN hardware. So MS will obviously consult with them for their own brand specific optimizations. It really does blow my mind to think that anyone believes a GCN architecture based API will work DX12 wide. It blows my mind. I mean if we want to use "crazy people" arguments like i've seen throughout this thread, we can say that NV is the only vendor with DX12 drives therefore nvidia created DX12. Who doesn't love crazy arguments with only circumstantial evidence. Fuck proof. Solid proof is overrated.
 
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I stopped reading this thread halfway to say that Microsoft, AMD, NVIDIA, and Intel all have people smarter than all of us, or at the minimum know a BOATLOAD more about this stuff than we do.

It doesn't take a whole lot of common sense to come to the conclusion that parts, if not all, of the basic principles of Mantle are going to be in DX12. Microsoft would be stupid NOT to include it. AMD has said from day 1 they basically want it to be open source. Why any of you would take offense to that or deny it or argue against it doesn't make any sense to me.
 
AMD never stated that they wished for Mantle to be open source.

They wanted NVIDIA to use it without charging them correct? I mean, that's basically open source, how many other graphic card companies do you know of? Either way, even if I'm wrong about that the point still stands.
 
Common sense would dictate this if you look at all the facts (most hardware not GCN, AMD doesn't have DX12 drivers, AMD or MS never stated Mantle = DX12, etc) But. It's nearly useless to tell anyone that. It's like arguing with some religious person that clearly has their views set in stone. Endless circumstantial non factual circular argument ensues. Not that I have any problem with religion, it's completely okay in my book. Obviously nobody believes in all religions, if they do believe in one. But just an analogy. Telling him his errors is just a never ending circular argument with someone who truly believes in their lord and savior. Erm, I mean truly believes in AMD. The lord and savior AMD.

All that said, I think it's completely plausible that bits and pieces of Mantle are being used within DX12 for GCN hardware. The gist I get is that the lessened abstraction layer does require brand specific optimizations, not the least of which would obviously include GCN. So perhaps bits and pieces are there for that. But those bits and pieces cannot be used with nvidia, intel, and others which are not GCN hardware. So MS will obviously consult with them for their own brand specific optimizations. It really does blow my mind to think that anyone believes a GCN architecture based API will work DX12 wide. It blows my mind. I mean if we want to use "crazy people" arguments like i've seen throughout this thread, we can say that NV is the only vendor with DX12 drives therefore nvidia created DX12. Who doesn't love crazy arguments with only circumstantial evidence. Fuck proof. Solid proof is overrated.

Mantle isn't a GCN API, it's been developed on GCN hardware, but that's two different things. I know you like to bash AMD at every turn, but, there is no way in hell that they would develop an API that wasn't easily modified to work on other Graphic hardware. AMD have put a very big emphasis on making sure that that point was made.

At the moment nobody knows what directx 12 will be exactly. For all we know it could be Mantle. It might have been the only way for Nvidia to use it if Microsoft agreed to take ownership of it. If something like this did happen, none of the companies involved would say anything because they would all look bad.

The point is, that using the argument that neither Microsoft or AMD or NVidia have said that DX12 is Mantle is not really an argument at all.

The fact that AMD have no DX12 drivers, how do we know? Maybe they have, if DX12 and mantle are the same then they already have the drivers.

People that are saying Dx12 is mantle might right,
People saying DX12 isn't mantle might be right too.

I haven't seen any evidence either way in this thread.
 
They wanted NVIDIA to use it without charging them correct? I mean, that's basically open source, how many other graphic card companies do you know of? Either way, even if I'm wrong about that the point still stands.

nvidia with physx.
 
I haven't seen any evidence either way in this thread.

Great. Something we can agree on. That's where the entire argument on both sides should start and end. No compelling evidence to show on either side? == shut the fuck up. Nobody wants to read national enquirer level tabloid shit and conspiracy theories. I think that point has been persistent for some pages now. And by the way, this thread originally had nothing to do with Mantle. Yet here we are talking about it. How did that come about?

I honestly have no clue how this argument came to be in the first place, it was originally a discussion of what DX12 could bring us. Then some of the more "out there" AMD fans came to say "Mantle == DX12". Why? Psychological head rush? Fandom? I don't know. Apparently, MS is too incompetent to do a direct to hardware API despite doing just that on the xbox and xbox 360. Both of their prior consoles used heavily modified DX versions for direct hardware access. But, suddenly, despite doing direct to hardware APIs in the past they're too stupid to do it now. Whatever. If it's true about Mantle being DX12, hey great, but a citation from a credible source would be great as well. Anyway.

Like I said, I think it's plausible that pieces of Mantle are used for AMD's hardware. But not DX12 wide. I could be wrong. It could be 100% Mantle. In any case, I certainly agree with the sentiment: "No compelling evidence == shut the fuck up". Period. The tabloid level nonsense is just tiring to read especially in a thread that was created to discuss something else.

EDIT: By the way, I should add, I have no issues with AMD doing their thing with Mantle. The issue comes back to compelling proof if you're going to make a claim, that's really the bottom line. A smiley face on twitter and SA aint it. But as far as AMD goes, I think it's awesome that Mantle is heating up the GPU competition despite my preference for NV. Let me be clear. I love NV products, but competition in this space brings us better products and better prices on both sides. Already, we're seeing sales on both AMD and NV GPUs well below their MSRP points. I saw a 780ti on sale for 600$. 290 aftermarket cards at 400$. These are awesome prices for these products.... Why is this? Competition. I can't remember a time when AMD and NV were so dead close in performance. Now I prefer NV for the intangible factors and software, but if someone else likes AMD - that's great. Regardless, I think AMD doing their thing with Mantle is good for all of us in terms of competition. I can't complain about that, I don't like NV's prices even if I love their products. But - again, the main theme here regarding these claims is solid proof or the lack of.
 
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There isn't even anything special about Mantle. It amazes me that people still talk about it like it's anything more than a big marketing ploy.
 
They wanted NVIDIA to use it without charging them correct? I mean, that's basically open source, how many other graphic card companies do you know of? Either way, even if I'm wrong about that the point still stands.
I'm just not certain I understand what that point is. Are you suggesting that Microsoft should have used Mantle (in what way?) because it was 'there', and that, because it should have been used, it was?

It's certainly true that there are concepts, as seen in Mantle, leveraged in D3D12. It's unclear, though, that there are actually opportunities for a low-level graphics API to effectively deviate from those basic concepts.

I'm still somewhat confused as to the notion of what 'using' Mantle really means.

There isn't even anything special about Mantle. It amazes me that people still talk about it like it's anything more than a big marketing ploy.
In what way is Mantle a marketing ploy?
 
Great. Something we can agree on. That's where the entire argument on both sides should start and end. No compelling evidence to show on either side? == shut the fuck up. Nobody wants to read national enquirer level tabloid shit and conspiracy theories. I think that point has been persistent for some pages now. And by the way, this thread originally had nothing to do with Mantle. Yet here we are talking about it. How did that come about?

I honestly have no clue how this argument came to be in the first place, it was originally a discussion of what DX12 could bring us. Then some of the more "out there" AMD fans came to say "Mantle == DX12". Why? Psychological head rush? Fandom? I don't know. Apparently, MS is too incompetent to do a direct to hardware API despite doing just that on the xbox and xbox 360. Both of their prior consoles used heavily modified DX versions for direct hardware access. But, suddenly, despite doing direct to hardware APIs in the past they're too stupid to do it now. Whatever. If it's true about Mantle being DX12, hey great, but a citation from a credible source would be great as well. Anyway.

Like I said, I think it's plausible that pieces of Mantle are used for AMD's hardware. But not DX12 wide. I could be wrong. It could be 100% Mantle. In any case, I certainly agree with the sentiment: "No compelling evidence == shut the fuck up". Period. The tabloid level nonsense is just tiring to read especially in a thread that was created to discuss something else.

EDIT: By the way, I should add, I have no issues with AMD doing their thing with Mantle. The issue comes back to compelling proof if you're going to make a claim, that's really the bottom line. A smiley face on twitter and SA aint it. But as far as AMD goes, I think it's awesome that Mantle is heating up the GPU competition despite my preference for NV. Let me be clear. I love NV products, but competition in this space brings us better products and better prices on both sides. Already, we're seeing sales on both AMD and NV GPUs well below their MSRP points. I saw a 780ti on sale for 600$. 290 aftermarket cards at 400$. These are awesome prices for these products.... Why is this? Competition. I can't remember a time when AMD and NV were so dead close in performance. Now I prefer NV for the intangible factors and software, but if someone else likes AMD - that's great. Regardless, I think AMD doing their thing with Mantle is good for all of us in terms of competition. I can't complain about that, I don't like NV's prices even if I love their products. But - again, the main theme here regarding these claims is solid proof or the lack of.

Why give out to the guys that say Mantle is Dx12? and not give out to the guys that say it isn't?

You say this thread wasn't about that, but what was it about? There was already a Directx 12 thread. This thread is supposed to be a FAQ and in the OP of this thread it clearly states that Dx12 isn't mantle. So of course the people who believe that Dx12 is mantle were going to respond. Why didn't you tell the OP to show his evidence of that? I mean he wrote the the FAQ, surely in this thread it's up to him to show his proof first. OR are you really going to tell me you believe what Microsoft says?

I don't get some of the AMD fanboy conspiracy theories in this thread, or that Microsoft isn't capable of doing it's own API on it's own. But the Nvidia fanboys have been just as bad.

The big thing is why the hate for even the idea that Mantle is DX12. Surely it's a possibility.
 
That's a backwards way of saying the same thing. That Mantle == DX12. This thread isn't about Mantle and has never been, some AMD fans brought that stuff up. Which will spawn more tabloid level conspiracy theories. It is what it is. If anyone has proof of any such claim that is credible, post it, end of story. That has been asked for 1.5 million times and we get nothing but smileys on twitter. Circumstantial evidence. Tabloid stuff from SA. Come on. Now I personally think with AMD's marketing style that they would have told the world in a very non subtle fashion that DX12= Mantle if that were indeed true, but that hasn't happened. I could be wrong on that, but that is AMD's marketing style.

The counterargument has no conspiracy theory to defend. The burden of proof of this entire Mantle thing isn't on the other side, it's on the AMD fans that are presenting it. If it were true, I would have no problem with it but some of the stuff i've read in this thread is laughable at best.
 
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I'm just not certain I understand what that point is. Are you suggesting that Microsoft should have used Mantle (in what way?) because it was 'there', and that, because it should have been used, it was?

It's certainly true that there are concepts, as seen in Mantle, leveraged in D3D12. It's unclear, though, that there are actually opportunities for a low-level graphics API to effectively deviate from those basic concepts.

I'm still somewhat confused as to the notion of what 'using' Mantle really means.


In what way is Mantle a marketing ploy?

I admit I wasn't as clear as I could/should have been. What I'm saying is that there's nothing to argue about. Mantle clearly isn't DX12. If it were, DX12 would be out right now. But clearly parts of mantle, or something very similar to it, will be in DX12. Why anyone would argue against that, or be offended by that, is beyond me. All gamers should be glad Mantle came out because clearly it did increase performance a good bit, even on hardware that had been out for a couple years before Mantle came out. It's no surprise it has effected DX12.
 
That's a backwards way of saying the same thing. That Mantle == DX12. This thread isn't about Mantle and has never been, some AMD fans brought that stuff up. Which will spawn more tabloid level conspiracy theories. It is what it is. If anyone has proof of any such claim that is credible, post it, end of story. That has been asked for 1.5 million times and we get nothing but smileys on twitter. Circumstantial evidence. Tabloid stuff from SA. Come on. Now I personally think with AMD's marketing style that they would have told the world in a very non subtle fashion that DX12= Mantle if that were indeed true, but that hasn't happened. I could be wrong on that, but that is AMD's marketing style.

The counterargument has no conspiracy theory to defend. The burden of proof of this entire Mantle thing isn't on the other side, it's on the AMD fans that are presenting it. If it were true, I would have no problem with it but some of the stuff i've read in this thread is laughable at best.

LOL, You are making up stuff now, I never said Dx12 was mantle. I said it was a possibility. I actually think that DX12 is already in the Xbox one and that it's just going to be changed to work on PC. But I have no proof of that or anything, it's just what I think.

As I said, you claim that you are neutral and that if people can't bring any evidence to the table then they should shut the fuck up. Your words, you actually state it several times in one post. So I will ask you again why did you not tell the OP to shut up as He said DX12 isn't mantle with no proof at all. Not only that he said it a was complete myth.

If you look back at the start of the thread you will see that post number 8 was where it all went wrong. You came in and started ranting against any AMD fanboys claiming DX12 was mantle, but yet nobody had said that DX12 was mantle. The only thing that had been said was that certain subsets of mantle would be used in DX12 which is also what you said was plausible. Why the rant?

This isn't a thread about discussing DX12, there was already a thread for that. This thread started out to be a FAQ according to the OP. If information is wrong in a FAQ people will correct it. The OP should have stuck to stuff that was actual fact in his post. And your rant only got people's back up and wasn't at all warranted in this thread.
 
Actually, it's this week, and it's Wednesday (tomorrow), not Thursday. I had the dumb.
 
There was also a quick talk with Ales Holecek about DX12 here, in which not much was talked about. He did, however, suggest that DX12 on Windows 7 was not completely out of the realm of possibility and that Microsoft was still thinking about how to proceed with that.
 
There was also a quick talk with Ales Holecek about DX12 here, in which not much was talked about. He did, however, suggest that DX12 on Windows 7 was not completely out of the realm of possibility and that Microsoft was still thinking about how to proceed with that.

Considering windows 7 mainstream support ends Jan 2015, I don't think MS will do it.
 
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