Mantle launches this month in BF4.

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Off topic but since we seem to be discussing APU performance now, APUs and integrated graphics today give a much better experience with games than even low-end discrete GPUs gave a few years ago. It's a MASSIVE improvement.
 
If the results are better then integrated graphics (spoiler they were) then it did trounce it.
Hell the idea that I could play a graphic intense game at 720p medium setting 30fps without a dedicated GPU seems like a huge upgrade to me. Perhaps I have just had more experience with PC hardware.
Do yourself a favor a buy a system without a GPU and try playing some games.
Tell me how it goes.

WTF are you talking about...they are both integrated graphics???? If you consider playing graphic intensive games on low/medium detail with no AA at 720P great, then my friend you have some pretty low expectations of what a modern apu should do.
 
Doesn't Mantle offload a lot of the CPU processing onto the GPU reducing the load on the CPU and thus allowing better-graphics/gameplay experience on lesser CPUs and thus have a direct effect on CPU-performance to an extent?

With non-Mantle for example, an i7-930 is likely, at stock ,heavily bottlenecked by a 290X or at least by 290X Crossfire or Tri-fire. But an i7-930 using Mantle, because the CPU requirement is so low (as indicated by the down-clocked to 2GHZ FX processor in the Oxide demo), the i7-930 might no longer be the bottleneck allowing that 290X to fully perform. It doesn't directly enhance CPU performance but lessens the requirement at which the CPU must perform to avoid a bottlenecking a particularly strong GPU. This has the potential at least to make video card upgrades being more practical for people with older cpu/motherboard combos. There's the potential this results in less CPU sales (or as often) and more GPU sales.

So with that regard, yes -- Mantle does have to do with CPU performance.

You would be correct, sir. I should have stated in my first post that Mantle will allow AMD CPU's to perform on par with Intel at the very least. Or who knows - maybe more? Only time will tell.
 
WTF are you talking about...they are both integrated graphics???? If you consider playing graphic intensive games on low/medium detail with no AA at 720P great, then my friend you have some pretty low expectations of what a modern apu should do.
A modern high-end GPU uses 250-300W of power.

A modern CPU uses between 70-100W of power.

Most APUs (CPU+GPU combined) draw <100W of power, some down to as little as 45W.

You have unrealistic expectations, period.
 
Not yet, but was hoping to have them this week, as of right now, nothing yet.
Damn, I was going to inform you that I have some extra space on my Dropbox..

They say that Mantle will be out this month so 14.1s should be dropping tomorrow or Friday then. I'm a little disappointed we've gone so long without a new driver. The 13.12s give me a few aggravating issues with 290X CF.
 
Looks like if you have a slow AMD CPU great, but if you have a speedy Intel CPU there's nothing to talk about.
A lot of expectation for so little return.
 
Looks like if you have a slow AMD CPU great, but if you have a speedy Intel CPU there's nothing to talk about.
A lot of expectation for so little return.

I think it looks like a very promising start (its still in beta):

It¡¦s also prudent to note that Mantle is still in the beta phase and may not reflect the full performance we might be able to achieve through the optimization time we¡¦ll be investing in the months ahead. And, as developers are still familiarizing themselves with Mantle and its relationship to Graphics Core Next, they may not have capitalized on all available opportunities for optimizations¡Xbut that will come with time.
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/am..._end_cpusnot_mainstream_and_high_end_pcs.html

Core i7-4960X CPU + R9 290X GPU
1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 9.2% improvement with Mantle
1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 10% improvement with Mantle
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphi...rings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA

Now, these numbers are from AMD and therefore needs to be tested by independent review sites (hopefully in multiplayer), but getting 10% improvement in 1600P (which is a bit more GPU limited) even when you use a $1000+ 6-core Intel CPU in a game optimized for multicore usage is very promising indeed.

What I hope [H] will test, is scenarios where there is a lot of firefights going on. In these cases, framerate can take a nosedive. Thats were improvements are needed the most.

Edit: BF4 patch is live now on Origin. All we need now is the 14.1 drivers. :D
 
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^^
edit: didn't see this yet, I'm guessing we'll see a ~15% improvement with any of the latest Intel CPUs.
--

The GPU-limited test was done with a 260X, which is like less than half the performance of a 290X.

I wonder what happens in a more balanced scenario; i.e 4670k and a 290X..
 
To be released later today:
http://www.maximumpc.com/amds_catalyst_141_drivers_are_incoming_mantle_update_and_more

Some numbers
http://techgage.com/news/amd-shares-fresh-mantle-numbers-promises-driver-to-support-it-soon/

For the sort of systems people around here care about (not a low power AMD part paired with a top-end GPU), the numbers are around what I expected.

Can't wait to try it out :). It finally gives me an excuse to play bf4 for the first time in a while.
 
^^
edit: didn't see this yet, I'm guessing we'll see a ~15% improvement with any of the latest Intel CPUs.
--

The GPU-limited test was done with a 260X, which is like less than half the performance of a 290X.

I wonder what happens in a more balanced scenario; i.e 4670k and a 290X..

The difference might be even higher if Dice have included a draw distance slider as example in the patch. One thing is to use Mantle to reduce the CPU bottleneck, another is to being able to use the extra system resources Mantle gives for added benefits.

When AMD introduced Mantle last September, they talked about "doing more with less". These benchmarks shows that they can do the same with less. I hope Dice includes some options to do more with less as well.

Whoa, check this out: http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/last/

Multiplayer = 7970 + 8350 = 25% faster
Singleplayer = 2x 290X + i7-3970x = 55% faster

Nice! :D
 
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Hmm... "(AMD will add support for the AMD Radeon&#8482; HD 7970 in a later stage of Mantle&#8217;s release schedule, learn more)"

Guess not all GCN are created equal :-p
 
I wonder if we can see the following test scenarios, either on [H] or other review sites:

DirectX 11 vs. Mantle in Battlefield 4
Tested resolutions - 720p, 1080p, 1440p and 1600p
Tested settings - Medium, High, Ultra

Hardware: (+ 290/290X for all processors)
AMD A8-series (6700 vs. 7600) vs. A10-series (Richland 6800K and/or Kaveri 7850K) + 290/290X (APU architecture comparison)

Core i3 / i5 vs. AMD A10-series + 290/290X (Budget CPU comparison)

Core i3 vs. i5 vs. i7 vs. i7 (E-series) (Intel model comparison)

AMD FX 4100 vs. FX 6300 vs. FX 8350 + 290/290X (AMD FX model comparison)

AMD FX 8350 vs. i7 3770K/4770K + 290/290X (8 physical cores vs. 4 cores/8 threads)

2GHz downclock FX 8350 vs. 2GHz 4 thread (or 8 thread if 3770/4770 can be downclocked) (CPU speed limited comparison)
Tests with these hardware setups would probably give a better sense of Mantle's performance in close-to-real world computer setups.

With the links above, we now know Mantle is the following:

  • Benefits with highly threaded processors
  • Benefits CPU-limited scenarios
  • Benefits low to mid-range processors
  • GPU-limited in high-end processors
 
I would even say do Thuban and Phenom II x4 on there as well , those chips still are pretty good :)
 
Hmm, would this help with low end Intel CPU's?

Aka, would it boost my Q6600?

It is better if you understand what Mantle is , Mantle allows more/better access to the GPU.

Everything that is done in the game which now uses cpu will use the GPU. By removing all the load of the CPU the GPU is being kept busy.

So any CPU should see some improvements because the GPU is doing all the work.
 
It is better if you understand what Mantle is , Mantle allows more/better access to the GPU.

Everything that is done in the game which now uses cpu will use the GPU. By removing all the load of the CPU the GPU is being kept busy.

So any CPU should see some improvements because the GPU is doing all the work.

Its funny you say this because you don't seem to understand what Mantle is doing yourself. Mantle doesn't move any CPU work to the GPU. It lessens the required CPU work to achieve the same amount of work fed to the gpu. So to feed the GPU takes less CPU horsepower. There are downsides to this low level approach but I'm not going to discuss those here.

The main benefit is that by cutting CPU requirements down, you let the GPU become the limiting factor more often... Instead of being starved by slow CPU feeding. So it's about getting the CPU out of the way of the GPU. It will not make your GPU workload change for rendering a given image. Of course the same inputs to the GPU are required to generate the same image.

If you currently run GPU bound, mantle brings nothing. If you have a slow CPU or have a multi GPU config that has so much GPU horsepower that you're getting CPU bound, it will help there.
 
I dont think either of you are totally correct. a low level, to the metal driver should have performance benefits for both the CPU and GPU.

From the early benchmarks though, it looks like the GPU benefit is much less than the CPU one in practice.

But my question is if Mantle is CPU-vendor agnostic. It seems that it is judging nobody has said it isn't in reply.

Oh well, I have a 6970 anyway, and need a whole new rig anyway as I'm on 4GB of DDR2, so it'll likely not help me. I'd have to pair a new GCN GPU with my old rig for it to come into play, and more than likely if I upgrade the 6970, it would make sense to upgrade the whole platform.
 
So essentially if you are not CPU bound this is just useless. I do have a A10 6800k, maybe when prices come down on AMD cards I will pair something up.
 
Its funny you say this because you don't seem to understand what Mantle is doing yourself. Mantle doesn't move any CPU work to the GPU. It lessens the required CPU work to achieve the same amount of work fed to the gpu. So to feed the GPU takes less CPU horsepower. There are downsides to this low level approach but I'm not going to discuss those here.

The main benefit is that by cutting CPU requirements down, you let the GPU become the limiting factor more often... Instead of being starved by slow CPU feeding. So it's about getting the CPU out of the way of the GPU. It will not make your GPU workload change for rendering a given image. Of course the same inputs to the GPU are required to generate the same image.

If you currently run GPU bound, mantle brings nothing. If you have a slow CPU or have a multi GPU config that has so much GPU horsepower that you're getting CPU bound, it will help there.

It is funny how you shoot down what I said when I'm trying to help someone with very limited view of what it does.

And yes the details are somewhat different then the general outline. And no Mantle allows more and better access to the GPU you can do so much more if you paid enough attention to what DICE devs said then you would know that it looks more as the PS4 version. PS4 is known that they move code to compute units rather then still using CPU.

Mantle will still allow GPU bound (under DX) to get faster if there going to use more compute instead of still doing it on the CPU.

In your case you say it won't use more GPU for CPU task and I'm saying the only way to do Mantle is to move to Compute and gain from that.
 
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For Brent when he wakes up:

Based on my previous post here, which of these scenarios will you be able to test here on [H]?

Also, a cross-generation test such as Phenom II X4 vs X6 (suggested by Pieter above) vs FX 6300 vs FX 8350 would be interesting to see. For Intel, Core 2 Duo/Quad vs. Core i3/i5/i7 series also.
 
But my question is if Mantle is CPU-vendor agnostic. It seems that it is judging nobody has said it isn't in reply.

Yes, of course.

So essentially if you are not CPU bound this is just useless. I do have a A10 6800k, maybe when prices come down on AMD cards I will pair something up.

There seems to be improvements also for multi-GPU setups with high-end CPUs in BF4, but in essense yes. (and this can't possibly be news if you've been following this)
 
Looks like if you have a slow AMD CPU great, but if you have a speedy Intel CPU there's nothing to talk about.
A lot of expectation for so little return.

BF4 has been out for a few months, you would think any driver update from either company would offer a 10-30% performance boost, without the need for a new API.
 
This whole thing is pretty confusing.

I have a pair of 280X's sitting in their boxes. Does this apply to those cards or not?

I stopped using them because they were a little noisy and ran hot, but might go back if there's good reason.
 
This whole thing is pretty confusing.

I have a pair of 280X's sitting in their boxes. Does this apply to those cards or not?

I stopped using them because they were a little noisy and ran hot, but might go back if there's good reason.

Which models? They ran hot? Most 280xs have good coolers (all custom) but mixing non-blowers in Crossfire can have disastrous results depending on case cooling setup.
 
This whole thing is pretty confusing.

I have a pair of 280X's sitting in their boxes. Does this apply to those cards or not?

I stopped using them because they were a little noisy and ran hot, but might go back if there's good reason.

Mantle is not supported on the 280x yet. They are working on those older cards for a follow up patch.
 
wait wait I'm confused witch cards actually work or if it's easier witch cards don't ?
 
Yes, of course.



There seems to be improvements also for multi-GPU setups with high-end CPUs in BF4, but in essense yes. (and this can't possibly be news if you've been following this)

Dice themselves say...
The biggest performance gains can be seen when the game is bottlenecked by the CPU which can be quite common even on high-end machines and this was main goal to improve on with Mantle. We’ve also been able to streamline and optimize some of the GPU workload. The end result is that game performance is improved in virtually all scenarios in Battlefield 4 on both Windows 7 and Windows 8 when running with Mantle!

It does help the GPU too. Just, it looks to only be a few percent difference so far when GPU limited.
 
wait wait I'm confused witch cards actually work or if it's easier witch cards don't ?

The upcoming driver seems to only support the newest cards R9 290, R9 290X and whatever that other card was... R7 260X.

If your card is a rebranding of the older 7000-series ("GCN 1.0") you'll have to wait.
 
Mantle was released at 4:00 AM EST...stealth late night release AMD?...anyhow...

the biggest gains will be achieved on systems with mid-to-low end CPUs that are essentially CPU constrained. According to AMD, "Mantle makes the most significant (and we do mean significant) performance benefit for gaming scenarios that are CPU-limited."

For those of you with beefy CPUs where the GPU is the limiting factor, AMD says don't get your hopes up. It writes, "An API change is unlikely to make a drastic change in these scenarios, as GPU resources are being maximally utilized in a fashion that is difficult to improve at the API-level."

this honestly is a major letdown as it makes no sense...to run Battlefield 4 you need a pretty hefty CPU/GPU...so are they saying that an older 'low end' CPU will now run BF4 just as good as a high-end enthusiast CPU with Mantle enabled?
 
Which models? They ran hot? Most 280xs have good coolers (all custom) but mixing non-blowers in Crossfire can have disastrous results depending on case cooling setup.

They're Sapphire Vapor-X cards. Both would run up over 90C. I know that's within their limits before throttling, but we're in the dead of winter and my room stays pretty cold and they're still cranking up that high.

I don't have air conditioning, so come summer time I expected them to be throttled roughly 100% of the time and be useless.

They ran me back to Nvidia pretty quickly. The 4GB 770's don't even hit 80C for me in the same case with the same fan setup.

Mantle is not supported on the 280x yet. They are working on those older cards for a follow up patch.

Well, ok then. They really need to do a better job of telling people who this update is actually for.
 
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