How is the PC market doing?

Trackr

[H]ard|Gawd
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A while ago, I found this "discussion" with some fancy Apple troll who thought that it was "glib" to suggest that EA would lose revenue from not releasing Plants vs. Zombies 2 on PC and only on Mobile platforms.

The topic of the gaming industry as a whole and how the PC industry fits in it these days crosses my path too often, and I'd really like to get a concrete opinion..

So, I thought I would ask here.

Here are some excerpts from what this particular guy said..

PC Guy: "Well, if EA don't release PvZ 2 on the PC, they'd stifle a potential revenue stream because people like me wouldn't buy it."
Troll: "what is 'like you' exactly? the minority remnants of a dying PC industry that refuse to play an excellent game franchise on its most popular platform? or a person who can't differentiate between multiple viable revenue models and release target dates? you do realize the game is freemium right? probably not the way you continually blather about buying the game. you also probably don't realize how much more profitable such a business model is on iOS vs any other platform and why that is"
PC Guy: "The PC industry is dying? Is that why Valve's revenue increases 50-100% each year?"
Troll: "I see. So, by your assessment, Valve (a 2.5B software company who ironically utilizes a mobile-like distribution model) is a bellwether of the state of the entire PC sector, as opposed to HPQ, DELL, INTC, AMD, MSFT etc etc.? And we might as well ignore that Android and iOS are growing at 10x the pace of PC (as of 2012); and also that vendors began shipping more smartphone than PCs starting in 2011."
PC Guy: "Software has nothing to do with Hardware on the PC market." etc.
Troll: "Let's correct your drivel:
yes, a 2.5B market cap is 'relatively minuscule' to the [aforementioned] industry kid, quite so. the correlation that escapes you is valve runs on 'PC hardware'. perhaps you thought it was fairy dust?
that's a big top line revenue claim (please cite as I do not believe for a sec steam makes billions per year in top line) but it does not equal net income to which I"m sure is a fraction of your boisterous claim, nevertheless COMPLETELY moot.
'dying' does not equal dead though similar. But yes, any dumba$$ can figure out the PC platform is a much smaller market, smaller by the year. Some [normal people) might call that dying. This is a 'casual game'; casual games do better on mobile platforms. iOS is more profitable for devs than Android. This doesn't not take a genius to deduce, but perhaps someone less butt hurt."
PC Guy: "I will reiterate that hardware sales do NOT correlate directly to software sales. The average person does not need 8gb of ram and a quadcore processor so they aren't upgrading. It doesn't mean they don't still own a PC that they buy software for."
Troll: : "It doesn't have to. There is a correlation nevertheless. no matter how you crumble the cookie, pc for a mainstream 'paying' casual gamer audience (i.e. the target demographic for PvZ) is smaller than it has been for years and is projected to be smaller still; the trend continues: there are fewer and fewer pc gamers (particularly for casual games!) whilst more and more mobile gamers (especially for casual games!), despite the [as of yet unsubstantiated] success of one pc only software company. as anecdotal as valve is, valve is not popcap or EA, and pVz was more successful on mobile.
But let's just say this is a valid refutation to my premise (which it's not). The only thing you've proven really is that frugal consumers who refuse to purchase a popular and highly anticipated sequel on an extremely popular mobile platform will be dearly missed by PopCap/EA. Righhhhht. I state the overtly obvious (i.e. that dead $ will not be missed) and it seems you only follow up with multiple 'does not follow' replies.
Ultimately, the success of pVz2 on mobile vs PC (if released) will tell the tale, and there are 750 million reasons why EA thinks mobile and freemium will be the most profitable, but of course... you know better right..."
PC Guy: "Lots of people actually bought PvZ on multiple platforms"
Troll: "So what? who says many of those same people won't pay for freemium content on iOS where EA presumes to make the sale? the original came out in 2009 for pete's sake. there are millions upon millions more iOS casual gamers since that time inc. those (like me) who played the original on PC (when there was no mobile choice I might add). the die hard stalwarts like you will keep griping (because it's summer and you ostensibly have nothing better to do) yet likely concede to the freemium (or premium) when it's eventually released on Android or PC (if it's released) anyway.
On another note, It's as though you think there's never been a successful title with an exclusive platform launch. Countless successes, where do we begin..."
PC Guy: "Although you don't seem the type to care about alienating part of your user base (not that you would ever have one). So you've proven yourself ignorant in how business works"
Troll: "I like the part where you clarify your own illogical premise (i.e. me a person with a 'user base'). that said, do you think Rockstar alienated (part of) their base when they released GTA on PS as exclusive? ding, ding, ding, it doesn't matter!
Evident by what exactly? The thought that this game is not doomed to failure by simply not targeting its now smallest (and presumably least profitable) platform audience and instead focusing on its largest?"

I don't know if you guys consider this funny, sad, or just meh but I thought I'd post and ask for clarification :)
 
The problem with PC growth is not that no one wants one, it is that everybody already has one (and they don't want another until they have a good reason to get one) ... Microwave sales are down but that doesn't equate to there no longer being a market for microwave food ;)

For the casual games I think those are migrating to mobile platforms (phones, tablets) more now since that user base tends to like casual games and their platforms have difficulty handling games which are more complex ... the PC and consoles are more targeted towards serious gamers now (casual games can still sell there but they have a more limited market than web based and Facebook based Freemium games)

I doubt that PCs will stay on a permanent down cycle ... eventually (even if it takes a decade or so) we will get some new technology that will revitalize the industry and send the consumers or business to buy new hardware (wall size screens and home integration for consumers, 3D or some other form of virtual integration for enterprise) ... that would be my take at least
 
And once again the idiot analysts can't see that PC gamers are not the same as mobile customers.
Stupid economic analysts, that don't play games btw, are always the first to scream everyone should go mobile. Mobile experiences are nothing like playing with a dedicated machine with a keyboard and mouse/controller. I have zero desire to play anything on my amazing phone (Galaxy S4), because, it's a single panel phone. I don't see 5.1 speakers coming out of it, definitely not a dedicated gaming controller, and the screen is not 40 inches.

It is not the same market, and will never be. I can't believe that after all these years, and the horrible failure of Zygna, these people still don't get it. If anything the gaming market is getting bigger, but it is segmenting. We are NOT the same customers, that is where they have it completely wrong.
 
What I dont get is why nobody is eyeing the lack of really good games, and making a really good game to fill the gap selling point being good quality. Seems like the industry is only going for the most lucrative way of scamming morons, rather than actually meeting demand
 
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What I dont get is why nobody is eyeing the lack of really good games, and making a really good game to fill the gap selling point being good quality. Seems like the industry is only going for the most lucrative way of scamming morons, rather than actually meeting demand

Obviously scamming morons is easier... sigh

"Really Good Games" is relative though ... I think some would argue that games like Path of Exile, Pillars of Eternity, Torment, The Walking Dead, and others are very good (or appear as if they will be good, since some are in development) ... each genre has a different definition of "good" and often within a genre itself there are different camps of preferences ... unlike a console game, many of the PC games improve over time also as people mod them or the companies expand them further
 
Oh, I forgot the best part.. when I came in.

Me: "Seems like you have a shitty computer if you prefer playing on a fucking iPad. Here, head on over to a hardware forum like [H] and ask around."
Him: "lol i don't even know what (H) is, nerd"
Me: "Did you just call me a nerd for being on HardForum?"
Him: "Well, I don't consider you intelligent, insightful or creative, so I only mean nerd in the purest pejorative sense."
 
"Really Good Games" is relative though ... I think some would argue that games like Path of Exile, Pillars of Eternity, Torment, The Walking Dead, and others are very good (or appear as if they will be good, since some are in development) ... each genre has a different definition of "good" and often within a genre itself there are different camps of preferences ... unlike a console game, many of the PC games improve over time also as people mod them or the companies expand them further

I know and I guess it's a bit rediculous complaining that I'm not being blown away as I was previously by exceptional games, but I can't help but thinking we have an abundance of mediocre games, and not so many good ideas that were executed equally well. There just seems to be a lot of untapped resources in "hardcore" pc gamers, admitting that developing a good game may be really hard. For instance, If Epic made a new stand alone UT invasion multiplayer game, and made it a $10 dollar monthly subscription? I would HAPPILY pay for many years... WoW already showed that you can ask a lot of money if your game is good enough, make an exceptional game and make it a $10 subscription, loads of gamers worldwide will happily pay for it.
 
The core issue is that what people think of as a "computer" has changed dramatically.

At the height of PC gaming people thought of a desktop when they thought of as a computer. Most computers were only a few upgrades away from being a gaming computer, and those upgrades often made doing things other than gaming on your computer better as well.

That's changed. People buy laptops now and portability/battery life are the most important aspects out there. Their second computer is typically a smartphone or a tablet now. The rare few desktops being sold are for people to poor to get into a laptop, it's a sign that you're broke as fuck. None of these devices can actually be upgraded into a proper gaming computer.

Trying to convince people to buy a desktop now is like trying to convince them to buy a typewriter or a fax machine. You're asking them to give up progress and move backwards, it's an utterly insane and stupid thing to purchase unless you specifically enjoy tinkering around with them or work in one of the tiny minority of fields where it makes logical sense (at which point you aren't gaming on it anyways).

The games market has changed as well, you can blame the graphics whores for this one. It just costs too much to make a AAA game right now. Unless it sells like gang busters, you wasted all your developers time on it. You should have tasked them to do something that would have paid more. So it's like Hollywood now, if you are going to invest in amazing visual assets, the game has to be made for the lowest possible common denominator or you will have wasted your companies assets and deserve to go broke.

Computers are fine and gaming is fine. However unique AAA titles designed entirely for elite gamers who want to play on a desktop is a losing business proposition and no longer viable.
 
Probably the dumbest shit Ill read all day, no...all week..:rolleyes:

I'm talking about off the shelf gear, not what people here whip up on their own. We are a statistical minority.

Most people buy off the shelf, laptops out sell desktops by a huge margin here. The majority of the desktops that fly off the shelf are very crappy piece of shit items bought by people who cannot afford to get into a laptop. It's a market for those who can't even break into a 600 buck laptop. This is also why the form factors they ship in making fitting a good GPU into them an impossibility, the power supply would also blow up.

In other words, it's a shitty device that is less desirable than a junker laptop or an ipad.

This is not a new trend either. The high end is all ultra premium laptops, the mid range is still laptops, only once you get to the bottom of the barrel laptops do desktops enter the equation for most consumers.

For people like us who enjoy building their own stuff that doesn't hold true. But we aren't the vast majority of people buying computing devices. Sure we have an outsized impact because we drive prices on everything up and let companies make a killing off of us, but we aren't buying the majority of the product out there. Most people are buying laptops and tablets and farming the old devices off to their kids when they upgrade once an OS if even then. A tiny fraction is to poor for that and going for desktops, netbooks, and other bargain basement crap.

You may not like it, but that's the trend that's been going on for a while now, and it's not going to reverse.
 
What I don't like about the current PC gaming market is this Early Access fad. Look at the top sellers on the Steam store. 6 out of the top 10 games are Early Access games.. ie: Beta, Alpha, incomplete, fundraising, we're broke and need money to continue development games... I'm not ignorant to say it's not a successful strategy because people are obviously throwing money at their PC to buy them but it makes no sense to me. Why would anyone spend their hard earned money on a game that is a coin flip if a stable final product will ever see the light of day? Sure there have been some success stories but the ratio at which these games flood the store now Vs what is ever actually completed is staggeringly bad. There are some great Early Access developers like BugBear and Bohemia Interactive just to name two but the ratio of known Early Access developers Vs unknowns is very lopsided. Steam is just becoming a wasteland of Early Access games from developers I have never heard of before and it's just becoming a den of digital panhandling.
 
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What I don't like about the current PC gaming market is this Early Access fad. Look at the top sellers on the Steam store. 6 out of the top 10 games are Early Access games.. ie: Beta, Alpha, incomplete, fundraising, we're broke and need money to continue development games... I'm not ignorant to say it's not a successful strategy because people are obviously throwing money at their PC to buy them but it makes no sense to me. Why would anyone spend their hard earned money on a game that is a coin flip if a stable final product will ever see the light of day? Sure there have been some success stories but the ratio at which these games flood the store now Vs what is ever actually completed is staggeringly bad. There are some great Early Access developers like BugBear and Bohemia Interactive just to name two but the ratio of known Early Access developers Vs unknowns is very lopsided. Steam is just becoming a wasteland of Early Access games from developers I have never heard of before and it's just becoming a den of digital panhandling.

I have a different perspective on this ... I like having access to a game during development (or pre-development in the case of Kickstarter) when my voice on a game can actually affect the final product ... the other advantage of Early Access is it allows developers to break out of the stranglehold of the publishers ... although Early Access isn't for everyone it is certainly nice to have the option to purchase it (if you want it) ... as you noted though, we will need to police the developers and share our feedback on which ones are doing well here and which ones are trying to take advantage of the user
 
I have a different perspective on this ... I like having access to a game during development (or pre-development in the case of Kickstarter) when my voice on a game can actually affect the final product ... the other advantage of Early Access is it allows developers to break out of the stranglehold of the publishers ... although Early Access isn't for everyone it is certainly nice to have the option to purchase it (if you want it) ... as you noted though, we will need to police the developers and share our feedback on which ones are doing well here and which ones are trying to take advantage of the user

Thanks for the response.. I was afraid I was going to get flamed for daring challenge the Early Access craze. I tried to be rational with my opinion. I see your point too.. There is a place for it obviously but I hate the way Valve/Steam is handling it. ;)

For starters. I just wish Steam would segregate it like they did with Linux and Mac. When I go to the Top selling or New Releases I don't want to see early access games mixed in with full releases. Remember when these sections were littered with DLC constantly and it was burying actual releases until Steam finally addressed it? That's what I feel like Early Access releases are doing now. It's just a cluttered mess in my opinion.

A little quick mock up I did.. Just add a new tab and move all the early access titles out of the full releases..

vfe6wBQ.jpg
 
I've noticed Valve has changed how early access games are listed in the new releases section on the front page. They're not listed anymore. Early access games are still listed in the top sellers and coming soon tabs, also in the section at the top of the page.

Look at Divinity: Original Sins, which was an early access release on the 17th. It's in the top sellers but not in the new releases.

So it does look like they are starting to filter out early access.
 
Good eye.. Thanks.. I've admittedly not checked new releases recently as I know this is always the slow season for releases.
 
Thanks for the response.. I was afraid I was going to get flamed for daring challenge the Early Access craze. I tried to be rational with my opinion. I see your point too.. There is a place for it obviously but I hate the way Valve/Steam is handling it. ;)

For starters. I just wish Steam would segregate it like they did with Linux and Mac. When I go to the Top selling or New Releases I don't want to see early access games mixed in with full releases. Remember when these sections were littered with DLC constantly and it was burying actual releases until Steam finally addressed it? That's what I feel like Early Access releases are doing now. It's just a cluttered mess in my opinion.

A little quick mock up I did.. Just add a new tab and move all the early access titles out of the full releases..

vfe6wBQ.jpg

That's a reasonable accommodation ... since I don't play multiplayer games I never look at the best sellers (my purchases are based on genre or specific games I want and never based on popularity ... although I do look at game reviews for titles I am interested in) ... Now that we have more direct developer involvement with Early Access and Indie Developers I would like to see a Developer rating (similar to what we have in Amazon for Sellers) ... That way developers who abuse the system can be suitably ranked but ones that do well can be rewarded (and I do consider developers in my purchase decision)
 
That's a reasonable accommodation ... since I don't play multiplayer games I never look at the best sellers (my purchases are based on genre or specific games I want and never based on popularity ... although I do look at game reviews for titles I am interested in) ... Now that we have more direct developer involvement with Early Access and Indie Developers I would like to see a Developer rating (similar to what we have in Amazon for Sellers) ... That way developers who abuse the system can be suitably ranked but ones that do well can be rewarded (and I do consider developers in my purchase decision)

Not a bad idea either.. Hopefully Valve have a plan in place.. I just don't want Steam to turn into the PC version of the Android market. I've been with Android since 2009 and watched the Android market go from a land of community innovation, quality payware and freeware to a vast unvetted market where the number of terribly bad apps and games with developers who have no intention of improving them grossly out number anything of actual quality and value. Thankfully there is a refund policy in place but it doesn't make shopping the market any less annoying.
 
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Got a bit OT there towards the end. Anyone have anything else to say about the "we're minority remnants of a dying PC industry" shtick?
 
Got a bit OT there towards the end. Anyone have anything else to say about the "we're minority remnants of a dying PC industry" shtick?

Since the NES came out PC gamers were always the minority.. It didn't dye then, it ain't dying now no matter how many busy body click-bait "journalists" want to write walls of text to say otherwise.
 
Since the NES came out PC gamers were always the minority.. It didn't dye then, it ain't dying now no matter how many busy body click-bait "journalists" want to write walls of text to say otherwise.

Well, then why are people mocking the PC and saying "GTA V isn't going to be released on PC.. going to be a flop without PC, right LMAO."

I mean, if the PC market is so small, then fine.. but then all that means is that we're the superior minority.
 
Well, then why are people mocking the PC and saying "GTA V isn't going to be released on PC.. going to be a flop without PC, right LMAO."

I mean, if the PC market is so small, then fine.. but then all that means is that we're the superior minority.

"we're the superior minority".. I thought that statement was trademarked by all the apple-tards! LOL :D
 
Well, then why are people mocking the PC and saying "GTA V isn't going to be released on PC.. going to be a flop without PC, right LMAO."

I mean, if the PC market is so small, then fine.. but then all that means is that we're the superior minority.

I wouldn't say PC users or PC gamers are necessarily a minority, but hard core gamers or fans of any one genre or series are:

- Total worldwide PC users is in the billions (this is why casual games do so well on PCs)

- Total Steam accounts is around 75 million

- For AAA titles released on multiple platforms the PC can usually account for 30% of sales or so

- PC sales in the down market still account for more than 300 million units annually

- lifetime sales of a console are usually around 100 million

There are certainly lots more PC genres that can make PC users look like a minority but software title sales in the millions of units or tens of millions of units are definitely doable for good titles or titles that pander to the mass market :cool:
 
The problem with PC growth is not that no one wants one, it is that everybody already has one (and they don't want another until they have a good reason to get one) ... Microwave sales are down but that doesn't equate to there no longer being a market for microwave food ;)

Wow, nailed it. Great analogy
 
Ouch, reading that troll discussion makes my head hurt. That troll guy is a true "keyboard warrior" and a little too passionate about his own opinion, yikes.

But yeah, like what's being said already. Software is doing fine on PC (christmas steam sales anyone?). But hardware isn't going to fly off the shelves when most PC gamers have a decent enough system to use. Check the system in my sig. It's midrange so I plan on upgrading it within the next year or two, but it has been performing solid for me for the last couple years.
 
I wouldn't say PC users or PC gamers are necessarily a minority, but hard core gamers or fans of any one genre or series are:

- Total worldwide PC users is in the billions (this is why casual games do so well on PCs)

- Total Steam accounts is around 75 million

- For AAA titles released on multiple platforms the PC can usually account for 30% of sales or so

- PC sales in the down market still account for more than 300 million units annually

- lifetime sales of a console are usually around 100 million

There are certainly lots more PC genres that can make PC users look like a minority but software title sales in the millions of units or tens of millions of units are definitely doable for good titles or titles that pander to the mass market :cool:

So, you're saying the guy I quoted in my OP is wrong on all counts..?
 
So, you're saying the guy I quoted in my OP is wrong on all counts..?

Did you really doubt that you would get that response on a PC forum ... of course he was wrong (or misguided at best) :)

The PC won't ever go away unless there is an actual replacement for it ... consoles don't replace PCs as a gaming tool ... tablets and smartphones don't replace it as a productivity tool ... and most people own multiple platforms for gaming now anyway ... some game types definitely favor one platform over another but companies aren't stupid and they don't like to leave money on the table unnecessarily ... some titles also have longer lives they can milk so there is no rush to release on every platform at the same time (like a BF or CoD where they want to have yearly updates) :cool:
 
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