Mac Pro Costs Less than DIY PC...Thanks To AMD?

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Rob Williams and the crew over at Techgage say that the new Mac Pro is cheaper to build than a homebrew PC and the blame lies with AMD.

Word’s out that Apple’s latest Mac Pro costs less than an equal-configured do-it-yourself PC, but as we’ve discovered, this is one of those cases where there’s more than meets the eye. Has Apple finally loosened up on its famed “Apple Tax”? Not so. Instead, the attractive pricing of the latest Mac Pro owes its thanks to none other than AMD.
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The “Can I build a PC for less than the price of a Mac?” question is about as old as Apple itself,
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More like "Can I buy a PC for less than the price of a Mac?" and the answer, yes. You want to throw in a "build" factor? Yeah I'll run circles around any Mac as long as you don't do like the article and pick up some specialty piece of hardware that would cost me $2700 new, when some equivalent big of hardware is 10 times cheaper.
 
I don't get it. Its been like that even on the PC side.
You can buy premade systems cheaper than the building it yourself.

Building it yourself is no longer cheaper. You just get a crapton of more options you could never get going pure OEM.
 
andrewcw said:
I don't get it. Its been like that even on the PC side.
You can buy premade systems cheaper than the building it yourself.

Building it yourself is no longer cheaper. You just get a crapton of more options you could never get going pure OEM.
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In a way. Most of those OEM parts are not available for consumer purchase. When we build, we build with nicer components than say a comparably specced Dell or whatever crap people are buying these days.
 
sfsuphysics said:
More like "Can I buy a PC for less than the price of a Mac?" and the answer, yes. You want to throw in a "build" factor? Yeah I'll run circles around any Mac as long as you don't do like the article and pick up some specialty piece of hardware that would cost me $2700 new, when some equivalent big of hardware is 10 times cheaper.
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Bad car analogy time!

More like, "Can I buy a car for less than the price of a Bentley?" and the answer, yes. You want to throw in a "Mod" factor? Yeah, I'll drive circles around any Bentley as long as you don't do like the article and pick up some specialty leather interior that would cost me $27,000 new, when a plain synthleather interior is 10 times cheaper.

I mean, really... What's the point in a Bentley when a Honda can get you from Point A to Point B, and even gets better gas mileage? It's not like we're comparing apples and oranges! They're both cars, they both have four wheels and an automatic transmission. So why pay the Bentley tax? People who do are obviously not nearly as smart as I am with my used Accord! Plus, it's hip to hate on the Bentley folk these days, so double-whammy! I'm cool now too!

Apple-hate makes me giggle.
 
The D700 is just Tahiti being sold for 750$, AMD is still making a profit and because it's on a Mac, it can avoid some of the normal Workstation ISV certification. You could technically build a PC with crossfired 290's and come out on top with more FLOPs for cheaper.
 
So the whole premise of the article hinges on the pro level video cards. AMD basically sold Apple pro cards for the same price as gaming level cards, and apple is putting a big markup on them. Where if you bought the pro card yourself it would cost 4x as much as the Apple version. The rest of the Mac Pro still costs %50 more than a PC build.

So yeah, if you NEEDED that particular setup you might want to look at a Mac Pro. Otherwise it's pointless. ;)
 
JosiahBradley said:
The D700 is just Tahiti being sold for 750$, AMD is still making a profit and because it's on a Mac, it can avoid some of the normal Workstation ISV certification. You could technically build a PC with crossfired 290's and come out on top with more FLOPs for cheaper.
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290 /= workstation
 
I just spent 4k on a 4930k, Asus X79 Deluxe - New gold version, 64bg ram, 2 x 240 Intel ssd's, 9TB ( 3 x 3TB ) mechanicals. Creative Zx, 2 x Gigabyte R9 290's, Corsair 750D, Corsair 1000watt PSU, Corsair 2100 gaming headphones, Corsair H100i Water cooling, Logitech G500 mouse, new Dual layer 50GB LG 15x bluray burner, and a few other bits and pieces

You cannot, CANNOT build this same system anywhere else as cheaply. I know, we looked and looked and looked.
 
JosiahBradley said:
You could technically build a PC with crossfired 290's and come out on top with more FLOPs for cheaper.
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Not in double-precision FLOPS, no you couldn't.
FirePros are required for the full amount, same as the Quadro and Tesla GPUs.
 
andrewcw said:
I don't get it. Its been like that even on the PC side.
You can buy premade systems cheaper than the building it yourself.

Building it yourself is no longer cheaper. You just get a crapton of more options you could never get going pure OEM.
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Really? I just built my PC for a little over $2000 and it included the monitor. Nothing I could find online came close.. was more like nearly double that.

Now it might be true if you use a vendor that doesn't give you a real copy of your OS, and gets all their parts cheaply made to the point where you can't swap anything out and upgrade it because none of the parts like the mobo and power supply are industry standard and can't handle off the shelf components!

Then again that kind of PC is much more likely to die right after the warranty expires too.
 
You can home-build a gaming computer cheaper than a pre-built one, but it's tough to beat the price of many of those everyday "off the shelf" business PC's.
On the other hand, you can cut corners with overclocking and slightly different specs, too.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
Bad car analogy time!
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You nailed it ;)

I mean, really... What's the point in a Bentley when a Honda can get you from Point A to Point B, and even gets better gas mileage? It's not like we're comparing apples and oranges! They're both cars, they both have four wheels and an automatic transmission. So why pay the Bentley tax? People who do are obviously not nearly as smart as I am with my used Accord! Plus, it's hip to hate on the Bentley folk these days, so double-whammy! I'm cool now too!

Apple-hate makes me giggle.
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Really are you saying Apple is the Bentley of the computer world? ;)

That said, I was specifically talking about the guts, the article (and the article they quoted) takes one of the most expensive processors out there, and then goes on to say "oh you can't build it yourself cheaper". Bottom line is if you're shopping in that realm, you're not exactly a home DIYers where the "I can build it cheaper myself" applies.
 
Cataulin said:
Not that I hate apple Cause I use their products but you've yet to explain why its better than just building your own super pc?
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If I need the class of hardware that Apple provides in the MacPro, I cannot save money by building it myself. If I need the OS provided by an Apple computer, I cannot legally get that any way except by buying an Apple. Labor isn't free, so build time isn't free. If my homebrew PC explodes taking out millions of dollars in IP, I have to take the blame. With Apple, you have someone to sue.

Now, personally, I DON'T need what the MacPro provides. But I understand that there are those out there that do.
 
sfsuphysics said:
More like "Can I buy a PC for less than the price of a Mac?" and the answer, yes.
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You can always build something cheaper. Doesn't mean you are getting something equivalent though ;).
You want to throw in a "build" factor? Yeah I'll run circles around any Mac as long as you don't do like the article and pick up some specialty piece of hardware that would cost me $2700 new, when some equivalent big of hardware is 10 times cheaper.
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Huh? Specialty piece of hardware like workstation video cards and Xeon processors? Just because you might be able to build something that can play games faster for less money doesn't mean anything. You buy workstation cards for a workstation, if you are doing workstation tasks that are benefited by the workstation cards, then no, you can't build a system that will run circles around the Mac Pro.
 
JosiahBradley said:
The D700 is just Tahiti being sold for 750$, AMD is still making a profit and because it's on a Mac, it can avoid some of the normal Workstation ISV certification. You could technically build a PC with crossfired 290's and come out on top with more FLOPs for cheaper.
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Bolded is part of the reduced cost. There is very little in the way of CAD and 3D modeling programs compared to the PC side. Less variety of programs also means less the driver support team has to get the GPU compatible with which equals less money spent on driver support from AMD.

I also suspect a small but significant chunk of change being saved due to the custom nature of the motherboard layout on the Mac Pro. These are obviously custom circuit boards and not something AMD would have built. My guess is AMD simply sold them the bare GPU chips and the specifications for hooking it up correctly and Apple designed the custom PCB's for them so they could get that trianglular shape shoved into a cylinder.
 
can people please stop comparing it to building a home computer. Try pricing out a XEON and workstation video cards before you open your mouths
 
WorldExclusive said:
290 /= workstation
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Mac Pro =/= Standard Workstation. It is a media content creation device that only runs OS X.

Red Falcon said:
Not in double-precision FLOPS, no you couldn't.
FirePros are required for the full amount, same as the Quadro and Tesla GPUs.
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False: Radeons and FirePros both have a 4:1 SP:DP ratio. Also how many video editing workloads require full double precision? Most application accelerate just fine on SP.
 
None of Intel's major customers pay anything close to CPU list prices. Only retail suckers pay that much. :p

The other major PC OEMs give a clue to how big a discount Intel gives in large volume. How do you think you get a $300 mobile CPU in a $600 laptop? ;)
 
Would love to see some side by side comparisons Mac Pro vs hi end gaming machine (keeping the price as close as possible).

1st test - who can render or edit video quicker
2nd test - who can play XYZ game at X resolutions

Call it what ever you want (work station / Gaming rig / home built / OEM built)
 
JosiahBradley said:
Mac Pro =/= Standard Workstation. It is a media content creation device that only runs OS X.



False: Radeons and FirePros both have a 4:1 SP:DP ratio. Also how many video editing workloads require full double precision? Most application accelerate just fine on SP.
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Who says it only being used for video editing? Just because it excels at editing doesn't mean that's all its good for.
As a professional, I rather choose that right tool for the job instead of cutting corners. When making 10K+ a project, a studio can careless about a DIY R9 290 having more performance.

I'll pay more for system stability over many years than short term DIY performance gains.
 
Red Falcon said:
Statements like this are just ignorant, that is if you were directing it at any Apple product aside from the Mac Pro or iMac. :D
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Gah, no edit.
I meant if you weren't, not were.

Huge difference! I swear! :eek:
 
mjz_5 said:
can people please stop comparing it to building a home computer. Try pricing out a XEON and workstation video cards before you open your mouths
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Yes, and the whole axiom of the article is based upon a saying that's based on HOME COMPUTERS. The article itself is stupid/silly, which was kind of my point which apparently got quite lost along the way.
 
AMD is giving it Apple to boost sales of AMD hardware. The pro uses intel CPU "currently" maybe AMD is giving the graphics cards to apple so cheap so they can open up future plans to move to an all AMD system.
 
rudedog said:
Would love to see some side by side comparisons Mac Pro vs hi end gaming machine (keeping the price as close as possible).

1st test - who can render or edit video quicker
2nd test - who can play XYZ game at X resolutions

Call it what ever you want (work station / Gaming rig / home built / OEM built)
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there's no mystery. The Mac Pro will render more accurately. There is a ton of interesting stuff that should make it quicker at rendering, too. It will suck at gaming relative to the best gaming cards but emphasis is on making sure the line being rendered is perfect rather than fast.
 
I agree with the twin 290's handling video editing workloads just fine. Although I wonder how the titan with its rather unique compute capabilities would fare against it in such a workload. Hmm I'll fire up 2 or 3 290's vs Titans in some video encoding? Anyone up for it?
 
Mac75 said:
I agree with the twin 290's handling video editing workloads just fine. Although I wonder how the titan with its rather unique compute capabilities would fare against it in such a workload. Hmm I'll fire up 2 or 3 290's vs Titans in some video encoding? Anyone up for it?
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The 290s should win.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
Although, come to think of it, I probably should have used more of a Porsche Macan / Audi Q5 analogy... Damnit!
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Really? I didn't know Porsche/Audis were shaped like trash cans...

I'd relate a Mac Pro to perhaps... A Nissa Cube? Both about as hideous to me.
 
TeeJayHoward said:
I mean, really... What's the point in a Bentley when a Honda can get you from Point A to Point B, and even gets better gas mileage? It's not like we're comparing apples and oranges! They're both cars, they both have four wheels and an automatic transmission. So why pay the Bentley tax? People who do are obviously not nearly as smart as I am with my used Accord! Plus, it's hip to hate on the Bentley folk these days, so double-whammy! I'm cool now too!

Apple-hate makes me giggle.
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This is a true workstation. If you have a production need for a workstation class desktop this is a solid recommendation. I would argue that is the point, or a to b of this product. If you bought it for a purpose instead of the cute cylinder and to tell your hipster friends your brand loyalty then your doing it right.

But if you bought the Bentley to zoom up the residential street while thinking all the 20something models want you then I'll make fun of you the same as I would if you bought a Mac pro to watch YouTube and look cool on a table in the middle of your living room.
 
andrewcw said:
I don't get it. Its been like that even on the PC side.
You can buy premade systems cheaper than the building it yourself.

Building it yourself is no longer cheaper. You just get a crapton of more options you could never get going pure OEM.
Click to expand...

I like the hobby because I enjoy building. But, you get higher quality components (not the lowest bidder) and you can overclock and use better cooling to be better than that Dell/HP.

Buying Dell is a definite no-go for me. Even if it's a lot cheaper. You get what you pay for. Dell/HP and other companies desktops are fine for the average consumer and business, but for enthusiasts - DIY all the way. I know what's in my PC. I know what the BIOS settings are. I know the timing. I built it.

I guess I could go buy a muscle car that someone else built, too... That's always fun and rewarding... :(
 
Was building it yourself ever cheaper? I guess I don't recall that ever really being the case, mainly because most OEM machines contain pretty middling CPUs and integrated graphics, which are like an order of magnitude worse than even lower-end aftermarket solutions.
 
Spazturtle said:
They will still lose when it comes to rendering though, their is a reason why their is a market for workstation graphics.

Yeah they are the same GPUs as gaming cards use but they have a very different BIOS.
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When comparing consumer grade cards as the poster was asking, AMD pulls away in the majority of compute tests:
Even the Ti beats out the Titan in the majority of tests.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7492/the-geforce-gtx-780-ti-review/14

If i could swap out my 780s for 290s I would, but they're to pricy right now.
 
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