Thanks for contributing nothing to this thread but a childish picture. Take your negativity somewhere else please.
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Windows 8.2 Will Make Start Menu An Option?
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Thanks for contributing nothing to this thread but a childish picture. Take your negativity somewhere else please.
Mother Theresa said:
You guys really need to get on the same page before posting here. Apparently its not "just a start screen" or Mother Theresa wouldn't be crying about the implications of being able to disable it - but at least he's being honest about it while everyone else is like "what's the big deal?" - that its just a front-end scheme for a closed app delivery system, and thats really what this is about. Time to cut the crap.
Here's the thing though - who other than Microsoft decided that it was suddenly the burden of every Windows desktop user to change their whole way of working, just because Microsoft decided late in the game that they now want to sell tablets and phones and create tablet quality apps? You see, that's a Microsoft problem, not an end user problem, and not a business/enterprise user problem. And it's certainly not my problem.
Thanks for contributing nothing to this thread but a childish picture. Take your negativity somewhere else please.
What you call negativity others would call honesty
When you excessively praise someone, expect to be met with some bringing-back-to-earth-ness heatlesssun
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The way work inside the typical desktop productivity is accomplished didn't change though.
ManofGod
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What you call negativity others would call honesty
Yeah, you just go right on believing this.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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So much anger! Everyone give everyone else a hug.
You say that like I'm religiously believing something fanciful as if it helps me sleep at night, geeze you guys take shit way too seriouslyYeah, you just go right on believing this.
I feel pretty confident that a facepalm is an appropriate response to comparing a woman who got a Nobel prize for helping the poor and needy to heatless. You disagree? Thanks for contributing nothing to this thread but a childish picture. Take your negativity somewhere else please.
And exactly what have you contributed to this thread...that's right, absolutely nothing.
At least heatlesssun has some insightful/helpful comments at time. The rest of you just ride off of him like little children. Again the pure bullshit love fest for MS is disturbing considering I knew exactly who would reply to my last comment. Thank you all for proving my point. And btw, most of us don't hate Microsoft or Windows 8, its Metro and the lack of choice for desktop users. We agree on one thing, this thread does need closing!
ManofGod
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Hmmm, there really is nothing to say to this that would not get me an infraction. Therefore, I will say this instead: I will enjoy using my computers with Windows 8.1 (Touch and non touch) and appreciate someone coming in with a positive or helpful point of view. I am tired of negative crap wrapped in a so called opinion. The Modern interface is here to stay, take it or leave it.
As Heatlesssun has said before, it will be improved upon and made more accessible for desktops as well. Do not like that, stick with Windows 7 or move to Linux and do not let the door hit you it the butt on the way out.
Or maybe it's not. Shit sales and poor customer rapport can definitely bring about a change of heart in a company
ManofGod
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Or maybe it's not. Shit sales and poor customer rapport can definitely bring about a change of heart in a company
Oh, you mean like when they went from Vista back to the Windows XP Interf...... oh, wait.
Oh, you mean like when they went from Vista back to the Windows XP Interf...... oh, wait.
Apples and Oranges, XP -> Vista growing pains really weren't the same as the Win7 -> Win8 problems that people have.
muddocktor
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I've gone through most of this thread until your post and you have come closest to the points I have against Win8. And agree with, BTW.
With the path that Microsoft took with 8's myriad of changes to the basic feel of this OS, they alienated people like me big time. Unlike a bunch of folks here, I am older and don't work in IT or computers, but rather am a professional working in the oilfield in the drilling and completion end of the business. I make a pretty comfortable living doing this and my time off and on the job is very valuable to me and to my employer respectively. And I found that Win7 worked well for me; was stable and easy enough to use in everyday tasks. But, when Win8 was still in open beta I read all the comments about the differences between it and Win7 and decided to buy a Win7 laptop for work early (for my replacement cycle) and then use the $15 Win8 upgrade that came with it on another computer to see what the complaints were about and wouldn't be forced to adapt right away while on the job. After Win8 released I downloaded it and installed it on a spare box at the house and really tried to use it without modification for several hours and found that it was intrusive to my uses on a non-touchscreen environment. I finally installed Classic Shell and put a GUI option on it I was comfortable with and it then became useable. But, to not give a Start Menu type choice upon setup, especially with a system not using a touchscreen monitor, is simply unconscionable by Microsoft, IMO. Why the fuck should I have to waste MY valuable time to try to learn a new way of running the programs on MY computers if I don't want to waste it doing so. When I am at work, the people I work for expect me to actually pay attention to the work going on while drilling a well and not fight a fucking new computer interface so that I can generate reports and read emails from the office and such. And when off the rig and at home, I would much rather use my time more productively for something that interests me much more than beating my head against the table trying to figure out how to do something that was a click or 2 away with the interface I have been used to. And with Win8, Microsoft in their sheer arrogance didn't even give me the choice to use a more familiar interface without having to resort to a third party add-on.
And it's not just me either. My brother called me around last Christmas asking my opinion on a laptop purchase for his wife and the model he was looking at came with Win8. I told him right then that there would be a steep learning curve for his wife because of Win8, but otherwise it sounded like a decent laptop. Forward 6 months and while I was helping him move to a new house, I asked him how the laptop and his wife worked out. He laughed and said she never could get the hang of it and gave it to her daughter. I also ended up giving him the computer I had installed Win8 on as payment for a lot of work he had done on my wife's truck (he is a mechanic) that had Classic Shell installed and asked him how he liked Win8 with a familiar GUI on it and he came back with (Oh, that's Win8? I didn't even notice the difference.) It's not that Win8 is bad; I found it personally to seem to be even more responsive than 7 once I got it to where it wasn't getting in my way with a totally useless, ugly and non-wanted interface (my personal opinion of Metro). It's just that Microsoft, in their incredible arrogance, didn't give their customers a choice of which interface to use right out of the box that I find to be ridiculous. Sure, you can use several different add-ons to make it so, but you are then depending on someone else's work to make your OS usable, which could potentially affect the stability of the OS and hence, user experience with the new OS. I have not looked at 8.1 yet, so I have no personal experience with the changes made to it and won't comment one way or the other on it. But, if they would add a choice to Win8.2 to revert to a regular start menu an option at least on first setup, they might get the OS to be a viable choice for both older, more entrenched types like myself and also for business users too. But it might take renaming it to Windows9 to do so, as I think that they have ruined the name of Win8 as thoroughly as they did to Vista's name by the time they got that OS stable and usable.
Hmmm, there really is nothing to say to this that would not get me an infraction. Therefore, I will say this instead: I will enjoy using my computers with Windows 8.1 (Touch and non touch) and appreciate someone coming in with a positive or helpful point of view. I am tired of negative crap wrapped in a so called opinion. The Modern interface is here to stay, take it or leave it.
As Heatlesssun has said before, it will be improved upon and made more accessible for desktops as well. Do not like that, stick with Windows 7 or move to Linux and do not let the door hit you it the butt on the way out.
The modern interface "may not" be here to stay as we know it....and I use the term modern interface loosely as that is not what I would call it. LOL and all the negative crap are not opinions right? And I don't feel the need to continually shout out to the world I LOVE WINDOWS X and will use it the way I feel Like some little child. Nobody cares. Please continue to recite what heatlesssun says instead of your own thoughts.
LMFAO. Thanks for the chuckle, dude. Now let's get back to the Windows 8 cult worship.
ManofGod
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Nope, instead, you feel the need to cry out I HATE WINDOWS X and Microsoft should DIAF! But, you go on and convince yourself otherwise, enjoy you negativity.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Oh, you mean like when they went from Vista back to the Windows XP Interf...... oh, wait.
I don't think that's a comparable situation at all. Because...Vista's problems on release weren't really a UI thing. Most of the public perceived issues were a lot more closely tied to the constant nagging by UAC, some prety ugly buggies in networking and printing, lame driver support for existing hardware, and the lack of RAM in computers shipping when it was first released relative to how much it took for the OS to acutally be responsive. Also, it was and still is a really sluggish feeling OS compared to XP and 7 or 8.
Windows 8's release didn't have many technical issues. In fact, I personally think the OS is very fast and responsive, even on not-so-modern computers. There aren't a lot of huge, glaring technical problems. Drivers were available at or shortly after release. That makes the Vista and XP complaints not really comparable to the 7 and 8 stuff that's polarizing people now.
And you feel the need to cry out I LOVE WINDOWS X and YOU should DIAF!
Equally accurate hyperbole.
Nope, instead, you feel the need to cry out I HATE WINDOWS X and Microsoft should DIAF! But, you go on and convince yourself otherwise, enjoy you negativity.
Show me where I stated I hate Windows X and want Microsoft to die? The ignorance in here is overwhelming...
Yup, that's a large part of the reason Vista was widely hated but 7 was widely loved. There were some people who didn't like the UI change, but for the most part that wasn't primarily the problem with Vista.
W8 on the other hand receives disdain almost purely based on the UI. So if W9 rolls around and has the same UI, I don't predict it will be accepted like W7 was after the hate for Vista.
Ur_Mom
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Wow. What I've noticed throughout the OS releases over the years is that there has always been people unhappy with the latest (and greatest? ) OS from Microsoft. But, they've always had that mindset that "It's better than Apple!" and just bitched. Now, there is a lot more bitching and bickering between users that are usually Microsoft users. Now, it's to the point where a lot of lifelong Microsoft users are saying "Apple isn't that bad".
While I think the OS is fine, a lot of people don't. I think that this is a lot bigger of a rift between users liking the new OS and hating the OS than ever before. I think that's hurting Microsoft more than the fact that people don't like it. It's that if people don't like it, they are more vocal and their voices carry a lot more on the Internet (more places to complain), and they just don't upgrade (Windows 8 offers very little over Windows 7 for general desktop tasks). So, I think their reputation and image is being hurt more than their bottom line. That's why I think they should offer the choice for a classic start menu. To satisfy the rabid customers that want one. Regardless of if it's "better" in the short or long term. It's throwing the customers a bone to save face. Microsoft really needs to do something to improve their image lately. Especially among the IT crowd (don't believe me on that? Read any IT journal, Redmond Magazine, etc..). It's less about bringing the tablet OS to the masses and more about improving their customer satisfaction rates.
) OS from Microsoft. But, they've always had that mindset that "It's better than Apple!" and just bitched. Now, there is a lot more bitching and bickering between users that are usually Microsoft users. Now, it's to the point where a lot of lifelong Microsoft users are saying "Apple isn't that bad". While I think the OS is fine, a lot of people don't. I think that this is a lot bigger of a rift between users liking the new OS and hating the OS than ever before. I think that's hurting Microsoft more than the fact that people don't like it. It's that if people don't like it, they are more vocal and their voices carry a lot more on the Internet (more places to complain), and they just don't upgrade (Windows 8 offers very little over Windows 7 for general desktop tasks). So, I think their reputation and image is being hurt more than their bottom line. That's why I think they should offer the choice for a classic start menu. To satisfy the rabid customers that want one. Regardless of if it's "better" in the short or long term. It's throwing the customers a bone to save face. Microsoft really needs to do something to improve their image lately. Especially among the IT crowd (don't believe me on that? Read any IT journal, Redmond Magazine, etc..). It's less about bringing the tablet OS to the masses and more about improving their customer satisfaction rates.
LMFAO. Thanks for the chuckle, dude. Now let's get back to the Windows 8 cult worship.
No problem. At least someone saw the facetiousness in my post. People see someone receive a compliment and their fallopian tubes get all bunched up. SMH. He reminded me of someone else that had a heart of gold. Moped I think it was. He was defending some Apple situation and although I disagreed with his whole viewpoint, I learned some stuff from his responses to other people and such and actually ended up becoming neutral on the situation.
heatlesssun
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It's often said that the one size fits a OS doesn't work. Here's how I look at it. The one size fits all OS makes a lot of sense on a device that can do a lot of just about everything.
We all know of the complaints about the modern UI on traditional keyboard and mouse PCs and that situation needs to improve as I've always said. However, Windows 8 was targeted for new hardware, touch and tablets, and I've said from the beginning of Windows 8 that its success would ultimately be tied to the quality and price of low cost tablet, hybrid and touch hardware.
For the first time in the long and beleaguered history of the Windows Tablet PC, all the major issues have finally be solved. Cost, performance, size, battery life and a desktop only UI with only desktop apps aren't obstacles anymore. The assumption of many Windows 8 opponents is that this kind of hardware would be a niche or small part of the Windows market. But after using one of the new Bay Trail 8" Windows tablets for a while and looking at the overall consumer response and the prices of these and like devices, 8.x makes a lot more sense now and makes a very good bang for buck argument. Yes the bulk of existing PCs will not be tablets or hybrids or touch enabled, but the bulk of new ones probably will be. And for all of the talk of OS upgrades in a place like this, OS upgrades aren't the primary way people get Windows, it's with new hardware.
So the debate will continue, Microsoft will more than likely address keyboard and mouse usability, but at the same time the hardware for which Windows 8 was really meant will probably begin to see some good growth in uptake, if for now other reason that it's becoming cheap and interesting. There's much left to this story, and while the issue of the new UI and keyboards and mice are a big part of the story, it's not the only part, probably not even the most important part long term.
We all know of the complaints about the modern UI on traditional keyboard and mouse PCs and that situation needs to improve as I've always said. However, Windows 8 was targeted for new hardware, touch and tablets, and I've said from the beginning of Windows 8 that its success would ultimately be tied to the quality and price of low cost tablet, hybrid and touch hardware.
For the first time in the long and beleaguered history of the Windows Tablet PC, all the major issues have finally be solved. Cost, performance, size, battery life and a desktop only UI with only desktop apps aren't obstacles anymore. The assumption of many Windows 8 opponents is that this kind of hardware would be a niche or small part of the Windows market. But after using one of the new Bay Trail 8" Windows tablets for a while and looking at the overall consumer response and the prices of these and like devices, 8.x makes a lot more sense now and makes a very good bang for buck argument. Yes the bulk of existing PCs will not be tablets or hybrids or touch enabled, but the bulk of new ones probably will be. And for all of the talk of OS upgrades in a place like this, OS upgrades aren't the primary way people get Windows, it's with new hardware.
So the debate will continue, Microsoft will more than likely address keyboard and mouse usability, but at the same time the hardware for which Windows 8 was really meant will probably begin to see some good growth in uptake, if for now other reason that it's becoming cheap and interesting. There's much left to this story, and while the issue of the new UI and keyboards and mice are a big part of the story, it's not the only part, probably not even the most important part long term.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Cheap Windows 8 tablets need at least 10x the storage space they're shipping with at the bottom end. I mean really, 32 GBs is just not enough after the OS and applications to hold even a tenth of my collection of cat photos. And then there's the problem with still having to drag around a keyboard and mouse which makes it a lot less portable than a laptop that already has all that junk attached to begin with.
And then there's the problem with still having to drag around a keyboard and mouse which makes it a lot less portable than a laptop that already has all that junk attached to begin with.Cheap Windows 8 tablets need at least 10x the storage space they're shipping with at the bottom end. I mean really, 32 GBs is just not enough after the OS and applications to hold even a tenth of my collection of cat photos.
That's why I really appreciated those netbooks. We still use them around here. To bad tablets all but killed them off.
Ur_Mom
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Cheap Windows 8 tablets need at least 10x the storage space they're shipping with at the bottom end. I mean really, 32 GBs is just not enough after the OS and applications to hold even a tenth of my collection of cat photos.
It depends on how you use it, though. Power users? No way is that enough. General home users? I see PC's and laptops with huge HDD's. They only use 20-25 GB of space tops. Internet, email, simple Word documents? 32-64 GB is plenty. You really have to look at the usage and buy the hardware to fit that. Gamers aren't going to buy a $300 Dell and enjoy it. But, an elderly woman would love it. It all depends on the end user.
Although, some of those tablets can be expanded using removable media (MicroSD). Throw in a 64 or 128 GB and you have a bit more space. Start with 64 or 128 and you can double your storage.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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That's why I really appreciated those netbooks. We still use them around here. To bad tablets all but killed them off.
I get lots of use out of a netbook and there's a 1 TB hard drive upgrade in the near future for mine. I think the low profit margins and lack of sales after the fad wore off really hurt them too. Tablets though, they probably took the biggest toll.
Yup, the usage model in which they operate does have a big impact. Cloud storage can help too if the person using such a device is comfortable with all the implications of saving data on someone else's systems. I think part of the justification for a lack of capacity has a lot to do with getting people into cloud technologies. Still though, solid state memory is expensive and it can't get cheaper soon enough. Price reduction and newer memory technologies need to hurry up and get here.
heatlesssun
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Cheap Windows 8 tablets need at least 10x the storage space they're shipping with at the bottom end. I mean really, 32 GBs is just not enough after the OS and applications to hold even a tenth of my collection of cat photos.
It all depends on what the user is trying to do, plus all of these 8" Windows tablets have microSD slots. The 32 GB version of the Dell Venue 8 Pro comes with 12 GB, that can be increased up to about 18 GB when backup partition is removed, Dell actually has a utility to do that what is nice touch. 18 GB is enough to load Office, and a ton of modern apps and with a microSD card have a good bit of storage for local data.
I have the 64 GB version of the V8P with a 64 GB SD card, at going prices that's about $380. $380 for a device with 128 GB of local storage on a device that weighs 13 ounces that is capable of running tons of desktops apps is pretty cool. I have Office 2013 Pro, Visual Studio 2013 Ultimate, Steam with a couple of games installed on the SD card, my 6 GB OneNote notebook cache, about 50 modern apps, and have about 40 GB still free in total. Really, the fact that a 13 ounce device even has the capability to run decently all of this stuff in and of itself is impressive.
I'm not saying that this a device for everyone, but you act as though it is a device for no one. This device doesn't always need a keyboard and mouse, that's the point of the modern UI. If you add the keyboard case and a travel mouse it's still only about 2 pounds and it's all together sans the mouse. The bottom line is that you can point to that laptop and if that's device you want that's fine. But the people who want a 13 ounce tablet that can be held in one hand don't want a laptop.
Steam on an Atom tablet? Does Steam do tablet games now?
heatlesssun
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Actually it can: https://gameplay.gestureworks.com/
Probably will play with this over Christmas. There are some YouTube videos out there that show a number of Steam games that work well with this. But there's no reason why a person couldn't use a controller of even keyboard and mouse. There's no reason why a desktop app can't be as touch capable as a modern app, that ability has been in Windows since 7 actually. And while the performance isn't there, ironically these Windows Bay Trail tablets run more of the Steam catalog than SteamOS.
It is actually quite amazing what my venue 8 pro is capable of, It runs tomb raider like it was built for it, world of Warcraft pulls anywhere from 25 to 50 fps depending on the area, crysis 1 is actually quite playable, borderlands 2 does all right as well. Still working on skyrim, since the install I was testing with is modded it didn't like it too much and haven't had time to redownload. Obviously these are low res/low settings but... it runs crysis!
Wow. What I've noticed throughout the OS releases over the years is that there has always been people unhappy with the latest (and greatest?
While I think the OS is fine, a lot of people don't. I think that this is a lot bigger of a rift between users liking the new OS and hating the OS than ever before. I think that's hurting Microsoft more than the fact that people don't like it. It's that if people don't like it, they are more vocal and their voices carry a lot more on the Internet (more places to complain), and they just don't upgrade (Windows 8 offers very little over Windows 7 for general desktop tasks). So, I think their reputation and image is being hurt more than their bottom line. That's why I think they should offer the choice for a classic start menu. To satisfy the rabid customers that want one. Regardless of if it's "better" in the short or long term. It's throwing the customers a bone to save face. Microsoft really needs to do something to improve their image lately. Especially among the IT crowd (don't believe me on that? Read any IT journal, Redmond Magazine, etc..). It's less about bringing the tablet OS to the masses and more about improving their customer satisfaction rates.
What is funny is that people that bitching that Microsoft took away my start menu so fuck them i'm going to Apple. Which doesn't have a start menu either.
Well there's a red herring. Not sure who went to MacOS because of a missing start menu in Windows, most people just installed Start Menu replacements -- and at last count there have been over 40 million downloads when the stats from the major start menu replacements are combined. That's a whole lot of Metro rejection.
As for MacOS, it doesn't have a start menu but it has a dock. And guess what, that dock doesn't take over the entire screen. If it did I'm sure Mac users would get out the pitchforks too. As heavy handed as Apple can be sometimes, the one thing they understood they didn't need to do was piss off their MacOS users with a giant fullscreen version of the dock.
heatlesssun
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The V8P and these Bay Trail tablets are incredible little PCs. It is interesting to see some around here talk about storage on a netbook and completely discount the fantastic performance boost that Bay Trail has bought to Atom. I get called a Microsoft fanboy all of the time but it might be more appropriate to call me one of Intel these days.
heatlesssun
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And neither does the task bar in Windows 7/8.x which are functionally identical with the exception that the task bar in 8.x is much more friendly with multiple monitors. The OS X dock has little relationship to the Start Screen in 8.x, which was designed to work on devices OS X doesn't.
heatlesssun
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FearTheCow
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My experience with the old person test:
Win7 - Grandmother needed help once in a blue moon with some random shit, usually something she accudently screwed up.
Win8 - Going to shoot myself for giving her a PC with it on it.
It fucking kills me that most people are saying "give us the fucking start menu back and we will be happy," just to have the MS defenders come charging in and talking shit followed by "you can install a start menu replacement." How in the fuck is it OK in your MS defending minds to install a start menu to return functionality, yet it is the worst thing in the world for MS to do the same???
Win7 - Grandmother needed help once in a blue moon with some random shit, usually something she accudently screwed up.
Win8 - Going to shoot myself for giving her a PC with it on it.
It fucking kills me that most people are saying "give us the fucking start menu back and we will be happy," just to have the MS defenders come charging in and talking shit followed by "you can install a start menu replacement." How in the fuck is it OK in your MS defending minds to install a start menu to return functionality, yet it is the worst thing in the world for MS to do the same???