NSA: No Better Way To Protect US Than Surveillance

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Well there you have it, spying on us is the best way to protect us. See, I knew this was for our own good. :rolleyes:

The NSA chief said Wednesday he knows of no better way his agency can help protect the U.S. from foreign threats than with spy programs that collect billions of phone and Internet records from around the world.
Click to expand...
 
Isn't that the way it has always been? We need to violate your rights you protect you? The question always end up with, maybe you'll protect us from them, but who'll protect us from you?
 
They mean "the easiest way for us." It means they don't have to do actual investigative police work and can just sit around and have the info delivered to them. This makes for lazy enforcement, which leads to more false charges and more people getting away. It's not the way to do things.
 
Efficacy isn't really the issue. What he's saying is true for the physical world as well. We'd all be a lot safer if law enforcement could just enter our homes whenever they wanted to look for stuff.

It's that pesky Fourth Amendment that gets in the way.

We wouldn't tolerate this kind of behavior in the physical world. Why should we allow it in the digital world?
 
He is correct. Watching your every move is the best way to protect people. If everyone had a cop watching them at all times, they wouldn't do illegal things, and when they did they'd be caught before they did much damage (physical or monetary).

However, it does not make it right.
 
“It is more important that innocence be protected than it is that guilt be punished, for guilt and crimes are so frequent in this world that they cannot all be punished. But if innocence itself is brought to the bar and condemned, perhaps to die, then the citizen will say, "whether I do good or whether I do evil is immaterial, for innocence itself is no protection," and if such an idea as that were to take hold in the mind of the citizen that would be the end of security whatsoever.”
- John Adams
 
"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington
 
How about closing the freaking borders and actually enforcing immigration laws?

What about profiling?

Screw the stupid people that have to make sure everything is PC.

Oh wait, that makes sense. My bad.
 
The problem with this slippery slope is that if we *still* have an attack, the NSA will demand even MORE of our freedoms.
 
actual investigative police work
Click to expand...

Wait a second. You do understand that the NSA isn't law Enforcement, they are not the cops or the Justice Department or the FBI. The NSA does Intelligence work on Non-US Persons. They do not do investigative police work. You do have that understanding right?

When the Kremlin calls their embasy in Madrid, the NSA tries to listen in. When an Iranian General phones his wife and says he is almost done playing soldier in the sand, he'll be home for dinner soon, the NSA want's to listen in. When a Chinese Scientists types a report on the new tech he is working on, the NSA want their copy. When the special agricultural attache to the French Ambassador to New Guinea enlightens the Ambassador on the finer points of lemming production the NSA taps that ass. Or the telemetry from the Moon Mission the Chinese are running, signals from new Russian radar systems, ELF radio comms from foreign submarines, Identify Friend or Foe signals from Japanese Fighter Aircraft, signals from Moroccan meteorological balloons, the signal parameters of an Droid Razer smart phone, etc etc on and on.

They are not cops.
 
I love this politicians answer, "we can't stop the terrorists completely── not unless we spy on our own citizens; the constitution is merely a formality anymore."
 
lcpiper said:
Wait a second. You do understand that the NSA isn't law Enforcement, they are not the cops or the Justice Department or the FBI. The NSA does Intelligence work on Non-US Persons. They do not do investigative police work. You do have that understanding right?

When the Kremlin calls their embasy in Madrid, the NSA tries to listen in. When an Iranian General phones his wife and says he is almost done playing soldier in the sand, he'll be home for dinner soon, the NSA want's to listen in. When a Chinese Scientists types a report on the new tech he is working on, the NSA want their copy. When the special agricultural attache to the French Ambassador to New Guinea enlightens the Ambassador on the finer points of lemming production the NSA taps that ass. Or the telemetry from the Moon Mission the Chinese are running, signals from new Russian radar systems, ELF radio comms from foreign submarines, Identify Friend or Foe signals from Japanese Fighter Aircraft, signals from Moroccan meteorological balloons, the signal parameters of an Droid Razer smart phone, etc etc on and on.

They are not cops.
Click to expand...
If that's all the NSA did, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Collecting and storing phone calls, e-mails, texts, etc. of American citizens on the pretense of "keeping us safe" wasn't part of the deal.
 
lcpiper said:
Wait a second. You do understand that the NSA isn't law Enforcement, they are not the cops or the Justice Department or the FBI. The NSA does Intelligence work on Non-US Persons. They do not do investigative police work. You do have that understanding right?

When the Kremlin calls their embasy in Madrid, the NSA tries to listen in. When an Iranian General phones his wife and says he is almost done playing soldier in the sand, he'll be home for dinner soon, the NSA want's to listen in. When a Chinese Scientists types a report on the new tech he is working on, the NSA want their copy. When the special agricultural attache to the French Ambassador to New Guinea enlightens the Ambassador on the finer points of lemming production the NSA taps that ass. Or the telemetry from the Moon Mission the Chinese are running, signals from new Russian radar systems, ELF radio comms from foreign submarines, Identify Friend or Foe signals from Japanese Fighter Aircraft, signals from Moroccan meteorological balloons, the signal parameters of an Droid Razer smart phone, etc etc on and on.

They are not cops.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that is NOT the only thing they are doing.. or have you been living under a rock for the past few years?

They are doing this crap and more to US citizens just because they can.

I am all for them gathering intelligence on foreign entities who we cannot trust.

What they have been doing is downright outrageous.
 
I'll let you in on what I find most frightening about all this NSA publicity.

Not everyone on this forum, or the countless hundreds of other forums and social sights where people gather, is very experienced in the ways of the world. We know young people in particular are very easily swayed to rash behavior and often without understanding just what it is they are about to go do. Now you take some kid that get's all fired up about the terrible things our tyrannical government is subjecting us all to and he goes to do something stupid cause he want's to strike a blow for freedom, he wants to make those goose steppers learn what fear is............. Ooops, yes, it's already happened hasn't it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/lax-shooting-kills-tsa-officer-wounds-others/

Yes, this is the kind of terrible shit that happens when ignorant kids get all wound up about stuff they don't even understand. He kills this TSA agent, cause yes, the TSA are really Nazis running concentration camps and oppressors of free peoples of the world.

This is the sad result of the media feeding ignorant masses BS they do not even understand. Like that moron talking about the NSA playing WoW, why in fuck would the NSA need to play WoW in order to listen in on what terrorists are saying in a game when all they have to do is intercept the data between the clients and the servers. Entertaining article ... if you need a laugh.
 
lcpiper said:
Wait a second. You do understand that the NSA isn't law Enforcement, they are not the cops or the Justice Department or the FBI. The NSA does Intelligence work on Non-US Persons. They do not do investigative police work. You do have that understanding right?

When the Kremlin calls their embasy in Madrid, the NSA tries to listen in. When an Iranian General phones his wife and says he is almost done playing soldier in the sand, he'll be home for dinner soon, the NSA want's to listen in. When a Chinese Scientists types a report on the new tech he is working on, the NSA want their copy. When the special agricultural attache to the French Ambassador to New Guinea enlightens the Ambassador on the finer points of lemming production the NSA taps that ass. Or the telemetry from the Moon Mission the Chinese are running, signals from new Russian radar systems, ELF radio comms from foreign submarines, Identify Friend or Foe signals from Japanese Fighter Aircraft, signals from Moroccan meteorological balloons, the signal parameters of an Droid Razer smart phone, etc etc on and on.

They are not cops.
Click to expand...

That is exactly why there is no place for them.
 
We have always been at war with Eurasia...........

And these numbers are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, utter bullshit:

Alexander took pains to underscore that the NSA is not listening in on Americans' phone calls or reading their Internet messages without court approval. Currently, the NSA is monitoring about 200 phone numbers for FBI scrutiny, compared with about 300 for all of 2012, Alexander said.

 
Remember when "Give me liberty or give me death" was an inspiring quote from one of the Founding Fathers, and not an "extremist" anti-government position?
 
Why don't we quit pissing off other countries/terrorists around the world? Then they won't have a reason to bomb us.

Need to perform some root cause analysis
 
JL6speed said:
Why don't we quit pissing off other countries/terrorists around the world? Then they won't have a reason to bomb us.

Need to perform some root cause analysis
Click to expand...

I agree with you, but that's a different issue altogether.
 
JL6speed said:
Why don't we quit pissing off other countries/terrorists around the world? Then they won't have a reason to bomb us.

Need to perform some root cause analysis
Click to expand...
It's called Blowback and far too few people understand it.

Read Michael Scheuer if you'd like to know more.
 
So nobody wants to give a shred of thought towards the fact that our country is so integrated with different cultures and people from different countries that it is much much more difficult to "protect" us using older methods? "Terrorists" and criminals now know hiding in plain sight is the best move. With the concept of sleeper agents and whatnot, how do we distinguish who is enemy and who is citizen without spying of some sort?

I don't think what they are doing is right, but I understand the meaning behind it. I think it's more of a good idea bad application type of thing. But from what I understand in these latter posts is that people do not want any of of scrutiny and just want the NSA to magically know who to target. Is there no middle ground?
 
the NSA is not listening in on Americans' phone calls or reading their Internet messages without court approval
Click to expand...

You mean those secret courts we have no idea what goes on in? Very reassuring. :p
 
If that's all the NSA did, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Collecting and storing phone calls, e-mails, texts, etc. of American citizens on the pretense of "keeping us safe" wasn't part of the deal.
Click to expand...

Now hold on a second. Play Devil's advocate a moment.

If there was a guaranteed, full-proof, no way in Hell, system that would without any shadow of a doubt prevent them from misusing the information, they can't even get to it, it's just sitting there locked up, protected by world class security. Would you be worried?

I want to make sure people understand the real problem here.

That the problem is that many people fear that the process of gathering up all this information so that the NSA has a pool of historical data on people that have been targeted for collection. They are not supposed to just rummage through it all searching for whatever they find interesting. They are supposed to have a target and a reason, then the use the meta data to find connections and associates, then they get FISA approval, then they can pull the data tagged to the meta data for analysis. Now if all the proper safeguards and protections are in place then the question becomes, is this reasonable, are you comfortable or trusting with this.

Or do you think it's just too much risk that things could change and the safeguards could be brushed aside and the information misused?

Now this is what it comes down to. There are people on the second group, the non-trusting group, who will do all they can to make you believe that it's already happening, that the abuse is already there. And fore some people, just the existence of the programs is already illegal in their eyes even when the same basic collection efforts have been happening for over 60 years.

People want to scoff at the idea that the NSA is working to keep them safe. Need to do some googling, open their eyes, there are more then enough unclassified examples of how the NSA has saved American lives over the last 60 years and then there are all the stories that are still classified.

Now I agree that giving up our freedom for the fantasy of safety is a bad idea.
I also agree that our privacy is important to being able to maintain our freedom.

I do agree that these programs represent an inherent risk to privacy and freedom. I also agree that they are necessary.

So the Million Dollar Question becomes "Can we run these programs in a manner that ensures people's privacy and how?"
 
the NSA has always spied on private American citizens along with their cover of spying on foreign threats. This spy business is all an attack on the freedoms of a countries citizens and when the citizens of any country tolerates it it only escalates. The spying has now gotten a super boost by technology and it seems that the private citizen has to find a way to learn how to hide from the spies. A new encryption system that they cannot penetrate would be nice.
 
Stiletto said:
Remember when "Give me liberty or give me death" was an inspiring quote from one of the Founding Fathers, and not an "extremist" anti-government position?
Click to expand...

Well at the time it was said the "government" was the British was it not? So yeah it was an anti-government position at the time ;)
 
cyclone3d said:
How about closing the freaking borders and actually enforcing immigration laws?

What about profiling?

Screw the stupid people that have to make sure everything is PC.

Oh wait, that makes sense. My bad.
Click to expand...

that should have been done before August 1609. :rolleyes:
 
lcpiper said:
Now hold on a second. Play Devil's advocate a moment.

If there was a guaranteed, full-proof, no way in Hell, system that would without any shadow of a doubt prevent them from misusing the information, they can't even get to it, it's just sitting there locked up, protected by world class security. Would you be worried?

I want to make sure people understand the real problem here.

That the problem is that many people fear that the process of gathering up all this information so that the NSA has a pool of historical data on people that have been targeted for collection. They are not supposed to just rummage through it all searching for whatever they find interesting. They are supposed to have a target and a reason, then the use the meta data to find connections and associates, then they get FISA approval, then they can pull the data tagged to the meta data for analysis. Now if all the proper safeguards and protections are in place then the question becomes, is this reasonable, are you comfortable or trusting with this.

Or do you think it's just too much risk that things could change and the safeguards could be brushed aside and the information misused?

Now this is what it comes down to. There are people on the second group, the non-trusting group, who will do all they can to make you believe that it's already happening, that the abuse is already there. And fore some people, just the existence of the programs is already illegal in their eyes even when the same basic collection efforts have been happening for over 60 years.

People want to scoff at the idea that the NSA is working to keep them safe. Need to do some googling, open their eyes, there are more then enough unclassified examples of how the NSA has saved American lives over the last 60 years and then there are all the stories that are still classified.

Now I agree that giving up our freedom for the fantasy of safety is a bad idea.
I also agree that our privacy is important to being able to maintain our freedom.

I do agree that these programs represent an inherent risk to privacy and freedom. I also agree that they are necessary.

So the Million Dollar Question becomes "Can we run these programs in a manner that ensures people's privacy and how?"
Click to expand...
The gulf between what you know and what you think you know about the NSA and its activities since 9/11 is staggering. You come across like a lobbyist. Ever work in DC?
 
The United States can do without a few agencies, NSA being arguably at the helm of that list.
 
And these numbers are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, utter bullshit:

Alexander took pains to underscore that the NSA is not listening in on Americans' phone calls or reading their Internet messages without court approval. Currently, the NSA is monitoring about 200 phone numbers for FBI scrutiny, compared with about 300 for all of 2012, Alexander said.
Click to expand...

No, it sounds about right when you actually think about what he is saying. 1st off, he is talking about Americans or specifically even if he didn't say it, US Persons, ( not the same thing, but anyway). And that these 200 numbers are currently being monitored for the FBI which means the FBI is running investigations on these numbers and the people who own them. Some of these people may have multiple numbers as well so 200 numbers isn't 200 people. Since the NSA doesn't do Law Enforcement because they are DoD it means that these are FBI terror targets or perhaps espionage spy targets. They are people who have gained US Person's status or US Persons who have had contact with foreign targets and there is reason to think these people could be knowing or even unknowing assistants.

Now you think the number is bullshit, but don't forget, the NSA doesn't need FISA Approval to monitor a Non-US person so those numbers don't count here. The day I married my wife, (Korean), she was afforded US Person Status even though she wasn't a citizen yet. Before that day she was a Non-US Person and if she came up on the radar she was fair game. In fact, I am pretty sure they looked her and her family over pretty good before she married me because she did have to pass an investigation before I was allowed to marry her. Yea, in the Army you have to ask permission to get married.

So these numbers aren't about the foreigners, they are about US Persons, and they are being monitored which means specificly targeted for collection. That means he is saying that out of the maybe millions of numbers that we have collected meta data or hard data on, we are currently actively monitoring/listening to 200 of them.

And from his previous statements the NSA would have had to get a warrant for every one of them.
 
XamediX said:
So nobody wants to give a shred of thought towards the fact that our country is so integrated with different cultures and people from different countries that it is much much more difficult to "protect" us using older methods? "Terrorists" and criminals now know hiding in plain sight is the best move. With the concept of sleeper agents and whatnot, how do we distinguish who is enemy and who is citizen without spying of some sort?

I don't think what they are doing is right, but I understand the meaning behind it. I think it's more of a good idea bad application type of thing. But from what I understand in these latter posts is that people do not want any of of scrutiny and just want the NSA to magically know who to target. Is there no middle ground?
Click to expand...

Yeah. That McVeigh fellow would blend right in with all those people from different cultures and countries.
 
At this price, I'm not so sure I want their 'protection'.
 
How about, I don't want or need your protection then if the only way to do so is for you to treat me like a criminal?
 
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