Windows 8.2 Will Make Start Menu An Option?

griffinhart said:
This is the important part.... Windows 8 doesn't just need to cater to the average user. It needs to cater to all users. The person that only surfs, the people like me that have 3+ monitors managing 100's of VM's Thousands of scheduled jobs, Domino Servers, etc, and everyone between.
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I agree that sort of widespread catering would be nice. But what are your thoughts on the priority levels based on percentages? First off, What percentage of users are like us with Multi-monitors, managing VM's. and have 50-100 programs they use every day? I would peg that percentage at around 10%. Should MS focus such efforts and money towards such a small part of their user base? No OS is perfect for every user but you want to accommodate as much as is practically possible.

Of course that percentage is debatable and only MS has that data in any statistically accurate form. But assuming it's a very small percentage, how important is that to their total user base?
 
DPI said:
Whether or not you "understand it" is irrelevant. If you enjoy an interface of giant tiles like the idiot boxes they give fast food workers to place your drive-thru order, that's great! But plenty of other people appreciate the compact, hierarchical Start Menu - it just works, and doesn't rip you out of your workflow with a jarring transition.

And why should the start menu "die" if most people still prefer it on the desktop where it makes sense? By the way, THIS is why the Start Menu *will* come back, and why MS is being dragged into it by the Enterprise segment, kicking and screaming. Adoption of Win8/8.1 has literally stalled while Win7 continues to grow.

2kkUR26.jpg
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Selecting though a hierarchial menu seems pretty disruptive to workflow as well. I have my commonly used apps that I am likely to open up while doing something else either pinned to the taskbar or in a taskbar toolbar to avoid that disruption.

The start menu may be less disruptive because the you keep other things visible in peripheral vision. I can kind of understand that. But when I'm using the start menu I'm looking for something I use less often which already disrupts my workflow so it makes little difference for me.

The start menu must die because it isn't flexible enough to work on a variety of systems. It has been a failure on mobile devices. If Microsoft can't offer a reasonably consistent and usable interface across different platforms, they will sooner or later lose out to someone who does.

Their market is shrinking. Their dominance is fading. The HAVE to change.
 
Dekarx said:
Come on you know there is a shortcut :) Really W8 does what the other OSs did and more. It just needs some adapting. I've found it well worth it, some might be more resistant or it might just really not be for them, but I found most of the gripe unfounded. I'm no die hard M$ fan, but I hate misconceptions more than I hate looking like a fanboi.
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Fair enough, there is a short cut, but I honestly don't use short cuts much. So I don't think of using them. But, It is still quicker to hit the windows key and start typing than hitting Windows + C, mouse to search icon and click, and then start typing. And if you are on a Win8 machine vs 8.1, you still go full screen. It's still an uglier way to accomplish the task.
 
Dekarx said:
Come on you know there is a shortcut :) Really W8 does what the other OSs did and more. It just needs some adapting. I've found it well worth it, some might be more resistant or it might just really not be for them, but I found most of the gripe unfounded. I'm no die hard M$ fan, but I hate misconceptions more than I hate looking like a fanboi.
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Yes, Windows 8 does everything Win7 did and more. I am not debating that in the slightest. I am a windows 8 user on all of my machines. I am talking about the Metro UI/Start Screen vs a Start Menu like in 7 or Start8, classic shell, etc.
 
DPI said:
Whether or not you "understand it" is irrelevant. If you enjoy an interface of giant tiles like the idiot boxes they give fast food workers to place your drive-thru order, that's great! But plenty of other people appreciate the compact, hierarchical Start Menu - it just works, and doesn't rip you out of your workflow with a jarring transition.

And why should the start menu "die" if most people still prefer it on the desktop where it makes sense? By the way, THIS is why the Start Menu *will* come back, and why MS is being dragged into it by the Enterprise segment, kicking and screaming. Adoption of Win8/8.1 has literally stalled while Win7 continues to grow.

2kkUR26.jpg
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and metro interface is one of the reasons why windows 8 sales are horrible. no enterprise will ever want to use this crap.
 
flatrock said:
It offers a considerable benefit. It offers a consistent interface between devices. While you may see no value in that, it's something Microsoft must have to survive into the future. Microsoft's current market is shrinking while the tablet and phone markets are growing quickly. They simply can't afford to not change.

Why does being a full screen menu make it less useful. A menu is something that pops up so you can select something, then goes away. Do you really need to see the rest of the screen when selecting a new app to run?

For my purposes the start screen is mostly just different. I think it is possibly better on a system with a ton of apps. It's main drawback is that it's now what I was used to.
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I have asked this before with no answer yet. What considerable benefit does it offer over a start menu? And again, I am not asking for anything more but to offer the ability to chose between using a start screen and a start menu. The start screen is great of touch devices, but is crap with mouse and keyboard. And I think the adoption rate of windows 8 effectively demonstrates that I am not alone in this desire.
 
griffinhart said:
Fair enough, there is a short cut, but I honestly don't use short cuts much. So I don't think of using them. But, It is still quicker to hit the windows key and start typing than hitting Windows + C, mouse to search icon and click, and then start typing. And if you are on a Win8 machine vs 8.1, you still go full screen. It's still an uglier way to accomplish the task.
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There is a direct search shortcut. I'm telling you, outside of some more precise server applications where the slight shift in architecture has caused some problems which may or not have since been resolved, it does pretty much everything it did and more, but in a slightly different way as it is moving to a unified cross-platform interface that should prove useful in the future. I think people don't really see it because we simply arent there yet. But it has to start somewhere. It should have started with options, I agree, but the change is not as bad as people make it out to be.
 
XamediX said:
I agree that sort of widespread catering would be nice. But what are your thoughts on the priority levels based on percentages? First off, What percentage of users are like us with Multi-monitors, managing VM's. and have 50-100 programs they use every day? I would peg that percentage at around 10%. Should MS focus such efforts and money towards such a small part of their user base? No OS is perfect for every user but you want to accommodate as much as is practically possible.

Of course that percentage is debatable and only MS has that data in any statistically accurate form. But assuming it's a very small percentage, how important is that to their total user base?
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Here's the fun part. MS went out of their way to remove the start menu. The code to do everything people have asked for is already in the software. All it would take to appease all users is to have an option for a Metro-centric interface, or an Aero-Centric interface.

And if Windows 8 and the metroUI were targeted purely at a consumer with a touch device, then it wouldn't need to cater to users like me. But MS has made the choice to push the Metro UI on all users and even Servers in Server 2012.

MS wants 8 in the corporate environment as much as it wants it in the consumer world. If it insists on this, they need to cater to all types of users. The Simple and complex alike.
 
Terminus said:
And who told you Windows 8 is for desktop PCs?

It's clearly for mobile devices even if Microsoft can't publicly admit to abandoning the desktop.
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Thank you for answering your own question. Saved me the effort.

The OS itself is perfectly fine for a desktop PC. It's just that they, for some reason, broke the UI.

Nobody is shoving anything down your throat, you just think they are because they took the old codebase and leveraged it for the new interface (to run Windows services that would take years to rewrite, proper desktop apps themselves are no longer a selling point in the current market - not even Desktop Office).
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Like hell they aren't.
And there was no real reason that the previous UI paradigm couldn't have been retained.

Your argument is complete bullshit, always has been.
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I respectfully disagree with your somewhat inflammatory statement of your opinion. I fully respect your right to be incorrect as much as you'd like.

Windows 7 and Linux are right there in front of you to use on traditional desktops.
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And Win7 is around for exactly *how* long? Retail sales are stopping. And how long before OEM sales stop?

Also, pointing me at Linux? Seriously?

I like Linux, don't get me wrong. But when I need to run apps that only exist in Windows, I can't very well run Linux. Correct?

And I shouldn't have to run VMs for any and everything.

Windows 8 is for a different kind of machine and a different kind of user.
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Then it shouldn't have been marketed to the desktop crowd then should it?

You keep acting as if tablets and touch screens actually made up more than a fraction of Windows' total, non-server install base (not their current sales trend). Grab a clue.

And yes, Metro *is* aimed at a different type of user. Totally passive content consumers. Not content generators.

But hey, if you're happy with a UI that purposefully hobbles you and makes things take longer, fine.
 
flatrock said:
The start menu must die because it isn't flexible enough to work on a variety of systems. It has been a failure on mobile devices. If Microsoft can't offer a reasonably consistent and usable interface across different platforms, they will sooner or later lose out to someone who does.

Their market is shrinking. Their dominance is fading. The HAVE to change.
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I understand that the Start Menu doesn't work on tablets and smartphones. But what I don't understand is why it has to be an all-or-nothing game. Give users on desktops with non-touch-hardware the choice between the Start Menu that "just works" and a Start Screen. Give phones and tablets the Start Screen where it obviously belongs. If the Metro is so compelling then users will gravitate to it naturally without a gun to their head.

Its the lack of giving users a choice that's hurting Microsoft right now, and yet its something they understood the value of before to most extents. The problem right now is they're turning people and businesses away and losing Windows sales due to Metro faster than they are selling Metro based tablet and phones. They were assuming the reverse was going to happen.
 
Dekarx said:
There is a direct search shortcut. I'm telling you, outside of some more precise server applications where the slight shift in architecture has caused some problems which may or not have since been resolved, it does pretty much everything it did and more, but in a slightly different way as it is moving to a unified cross-platform interface that should prove useful in the future. I think people don't really see it because we simply arent there yet. But it has to start somewhere. It should have started with options, I agree, but the change is not as bad as people make it out to be.
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What is that direct search shortcut. The only one I know is the win key and start typing, which brings up the entire start screen.
 
Outamyhead said:
The other problem with Win 8, is having a browser some businesses, or government organizations can't use for 90% of the applications that were coded with IE8 or 9 in mind, IE 10 and 11 break them.
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I would say learn to code to better WC3 standards.....so it works across most any browser.. most of our entire back end is web based and some of it is ancient code and yet it still runs fine on IE 10 and 11 now that i have 8.1 back at work.
 
Win F does bring up the search windows, but on Win8 it still goes full screen, on 8.1 it doesn't go full screen, but only searches files. So there it's still not as easy as win key and typing. Plus, it's not exactly intuitive, is it?
 
flatrock said:
I don't understand people's love of the Start Menu. If you install a lot of stuff it gets to be too long. It's a pain to expand down multiple folders.
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Because it's clean, consistent and organized. It also uses an absolute minimum of screen real-estate. Taking up an entire 1920x1200 monitor just for a program launcher? DUMB. MESSY. WASTEFUL.

The start button in 8.1 with the convenient features in the right click is considerably better than the Win 7 start button, and having it take you to the start screen seems easier to navigate to me.
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http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/06/28/what-you-wish-for

That pretty much sums it up right there.

I have my Windows 8.1 system boot right to the desktop. You can put shortcuts to your most commonly used apps on the desktop or pin them to the task bar. The start screen works well for the rest.
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Why is it so hard to understand? I don't want to clutter my desktop with shortcuts? That means I have to start shuffling windows or Show Desktop.

Unfortunately, every idiot in the last 20 years has been doing this. So Microsoft thinks they're justified in creating a Start Screen now. So they can move the clutter elsewhere (while still being useless clutter). And now Windows 8 users can have both a cluttered Start Screen AND continue to clutter up the desktop with crap.

Let the start menu die the death it deserves.
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That's just it. It didn't deserve to die. There's still MASSIVE amounts of utility in the Start Menu paradigm.

But what they've done is the equivalent of someone who wants to get a new job quitting their existing one, telling off their former bosses and coworkers in the most vulgar possible manner, getting full body tattoos, a nose ring, and some bicycle-wheel-sized earlobe expanders and going in to interviews having not bathed in weeks and telling the interviewer that they're into necrophilia and threatening to bomb the office if they don't get the job.

The start screen can carry over well between phones, tablets, and PCs.
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Again. No. It's a fine interface for phones and tablets.

On a productivity PC, it's fucking clown shoes.
 
griffinhart said:
Win F does bring up the search windows, but on Win8 it still goes full screen, on 8.1 it doesn't go full screen, but only searches files. So there it's still not as easy as win key and typing. Plus, it's not exactly intuitive, is it?
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Well there is a seprate shortcut for apps and another settings search. Most windows acquired better functionality after a few patches, or better yet a service pack. I've seen worst launches. If we're up to picking at polish it might not be THAT nad.
 
Dekarx said:
Well there is a seprate shortcut for apps and another settings search. Most windows acquired better functionality after a few patches, or better yet a service pack. I've seen worst launches. If we're up to picking at polish it might not be THAT nad.
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They are improving it, but it isn't there yet. Plus it still doesn't invalidate all my other complaints about the Metro-UI on a desktop PC without touch.
 
Dear Microsoft,

Bring back a CLI-only OS and sell the GUI as an additional piece of software. Thanks!

Signed
CreepyUncleSpyingOnURDatazGoogle

Anyway, Windows 8 doesn't do it for me. Even if the old Start button is finally restored, Metro will have to go away also, or at least the resolution requirement. It doesn't work efficiently at 1024x600. At least Linux does anyhow.
 
I just chuckle at all the people who defend the new start screen as if it's not just a huge start menu that eats your whole display. "The old start menu was obsolete and useless, here have a giant one that's poorly organized and an assault on your visual senses instead!"

It makes me question whether or not they actually support users at all, or they just armchair admin from their mom's basement.
 
griffinhart said:
Here's the fun part. MS went out of their way to remove the start menu. The code to do everything people have asked for is already in the software. All it would take to appease all users is to have an option for a Metro-centric interface, or an Aero-Centric interface.

And if Windows 8 and the metroUI were targeted purely at a consumer with a touch device, then it wouldn't need to cater to users like me. But MS has made the choice to push the Metro UI on all users and even Servers in Server 2012.

MS wants 8 in the corporate environment as much as it wants it in the consumer world. If it insists on this, they need to cater to all types of users. The Simple and complex alike.
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Reported for excellent points
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
Dear Microsoft,

Bring back a CLI-only OS and sell the GUI as an additional piece of software. Thanks!

Signed
CreepyUncleSpyingOnURDatazGoogle

Anyway, Windows 8 doesn't do it for me. Even if the old Start button is finally restored, Metro will have to go away also, or at least the resolution requirement. It doesn't work efficiently at 1024x600. At least Linux does anyhow.
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The funny thing is, MS does have a CLI only version of the windows OS available!
 
griffinhart said:
Here's the fun part. MS went out of their way to remove the start menu. The code to do everything people have asked for is already in the software. All it would take to appease all users is to have an option for a Metro-centric interface, or an Aero-Centric interface.

And if Windows 8 and the metroUI were targeted purely at a consumer with a touch device, then it wouldn't need to cater to users like me. But MS has made the choice to push the Metro UI on all users and even Servers in Server 2012.

MS wants 8 in the corporate environment as much as it wants it in the consumer world. If it insists on this, they need to cater to all types of users. The Simple and complex alike.
Click to expand...

I don't think they went out their to remove it as much as they built the OS from the ground up to NOT have one in the first place. But you make some good points on their corporate pushing. But I doubt it's as big an issue because Corporations are notoriously slow in adopting. So Win7 should be fine for the next 5 years for them. If Win8 is not ready, just use Win7. Everyone's problem is fixed. I do think some real changes should be made on the enterprise level for it.

Now, I'm not referring to you specifically but I don't see how people keep saying that XXX software is being forced down their throats when I don't remember anyone coming to my house demanding I drop everything, buy, and install an OS I am not ready to use yet.
 
XamediX said:
I don't think they went out their to remove it as much as they built the OS from the ground up to NOT have one in the first place. But you make some good points on their corporate pushing. But I doubt it's as big an issue because Corporations are notoriously slow in adopting. So Win7 should be fine for the next 5 years for them. If Win8 is not ready, just use Win7. Everyone's problem is fixed. I do think some real changes should be made on the enterprise level for it.
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Metro will never be adopted at an appreciable level in the corporate world. I think MS is finally coming to terms with this.

Now, I'm not referring to you specifically but I don't see how people keep saying that XXX software is being forced down their throats when I don't remember anyone coming to my house demanding I drop everything, buy, and install an OS I am not ready to use yet.
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Try going to best buy, or most other sources to buy a new Laptop or Desktop without Windows 8. They aren't forcing anyone to upgrade existing installations, but they are certainly making it tough for people to buy new systems without it.
 
griffinhart said:
It's close enough for me! Though I grant you, it's not a CLI meant to be used as anything other a server. It's definitely not a user's system.
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I do admit I completely forgot about Server Core. Well, I guess it's close enough to count. So, touché! And I crawl back into my Creepy Uncle Google windowless love van. :)
 
Draxanoth said:
I just chuckle at all the people who defend the new start screen as if it's not just a huge start menu that eats your whole display. "The old start menu was obsolete and useless, here have a giant one that's poorly organized and an assault on your visual senses instead!"

It makes me question whether or not they actually support users at all, or they just armchair admin from their mom's basement.
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Pretty much this.
 
XamediX said:
I don't think they went out their to remove it as much as they built the OS from the ground up to NOT have one in the first place.
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Yes they did go out of their way to remove it. There was a registry key during the early preview builds that allowed you to re-enable the Start Menu, and once a few sites popped up with "How to re-enable the Start Menu", Sinofsky ordered it removed.

And Windows 8 was hardly "built from the ground up" for Metro. It is essentially just a shell running on top of an evolved Windows 7 kernel. Proof? With literally just a shell swap using the Ex7ForW8 tool, which patches Windows 8 to use explorer.exe from a Windows 7 installation disc instead of Windows 8's explorer.exe, Metro never even hooks, and the OS continues to work perfectly with a genuine Start Menu.
 
XamediX said:
I don't think they went out their to remove it as much as they built the OS from the ground up to NOT have one in the first place.
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Then you'd be thinking wrong. Basically, until the last few builds of Win8 Beta, they still had a Start Menu.

So no. It wasn't "built from the ground up" that way.

I do think some real changes should be made on the enterprise level for it.
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Like expecting drastic cuts in user productivity... Lots of user retraining costs. And even then, an overall loss in productivity levels.
 
WTF! Windows 8.2...

Your telling me that Vista is getting yet another service pack? Holy shit Microsoft is truly fucked, as they simply cannot remember how to make a NEW OS anymore.
 
griffinhart said:
Metro will never be adopted at an appreciable level in the corporate world. I think MS is finally coming to terms with this.
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I don't necessarily see this as true. Modern apps have a place in business for things like point of sale, client facing apps, shipping and warehousing, automation and process control, etc.
 
so Microsoft has finally caved in?...I'm shocked...only took them 2 releases of windows 8 to finally listen...I'm willing to buy 8.2 is the Start Menu returns...W8 has a lot of under the hood improvements (like Vista did) but most tech saavy consumers wouldn't bite because of the Start menu issue
 
polonyc2 said:
so Microsoft has finally caved in?...I'm shocked...only took them 2 releases of windows 8 to finally listen...I'm willing to buy 8.2 is the Start Menu returns...W8 has a lot of under the hood improvements (like Vista did) but most tech saavy consumers wouldn't bite because of the Start menu issue
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Adoption rates of 8.x in one tech savvy group, gamers, seems to be much higher than the general population if the Steam surveys are accurate.
 
Which was the point, adoption rates of 8 actually being higher with more technically savvy folks than the mainstream. And is it really a surprise that Windows 8 adoption rates were low in November, just before all of the sales which started a late this year because of the lateness of Thanksgiving?
 
LigTasm said:
I for one really hope they do include the option for the start menu, basically so people can shut the hell up about it. I don't really care about metro one way or the other, but I've always hated the classic start menu and believed it should be terminated with extreme prejudice, immediately if not sooner.

IMO, I would like to see an OS with fully customizable GUI out of the box with no third party intervention (rainmeter, skins, etc) and then safe mode can be the default appearance to assist with troubleshooting. I can't think of any real reason why they couldn't do it, and I would be perfectly willing to pay for it.
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Just think of the fun supporting a business where every department/user has a different customized GUI. {shuddder}
 
nutzo said:
Just think of the fun supporting a business where every department/user has a different customized GUI. {shuddder}
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Options and customizations aren't free. Every switch in Windows has a cost associated to it in terms of complexity, training and support. That's why I don't think the Start Menu per se is coming back but more options for the Start Screen, which while adding to the above, doesn't put two completely different things in the box that behave totally differently that do the same thing but not exactly.
 
MrGuvernment said:
I would say learn to code to better WC3 standards.....so it works across most any browser.. most of our entire back end is web based and some of it is ancient code and yet it still runs fine on IE 10 and 11 now that i have 8.1 back at work.
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Guess you are not running products like Microsoft's own CRM 2011 that doesn't work with IE 11 :)

(Yes you can use it in compatibility more, but we still see problems with a few of the screens)
 
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