Supreme Court Blocks Challenge To NSA Phone Tracking

lcpiper said:
I found the name Stilleto, too many posters, so little time, I'll get to them.
I do find it a little strange you would select someone who has made statements that could only be viewed as an admission that he is an enemy of the US.

What would have been his fate if years before he was killed, if before Obama had signed off on putting him on that list, what if he had come forward and essentially "asked for a trial", lay the cards out on the table, this is who I am, what I do, why I do it. Would the courts have seen him as exercising his rights. You can't provide aid to an enemy and not eventually become the enemy as well.

Nothing I saw so far, but I have not read your linked article yet, said the NSA was involved, but I can't imagine that they were not. At the same time, if he is directly communication with enemies his privacy is no longer protected because the conversation involves enemies.

I am going to check out this article you linked but I had hoped you would be able to find someone who wasn't living in a foreign country and actively involved with so many who have attacked and killed Americans, soldiers and civilians. It just seems odd that you worry about this guy was treated knowing full well how he was involved in killing others.
Click to expand...

Due process can't be skipped just because we don't like assholes. Even assholes have rights as citizens.
 
Due process can't be skipped just because we don't like assholes. Even assholes have rights as citizens.
Click to expand...

No, you forfeit those rights when you engage and support acts of war against our country. If you help them in any material way you are for them and against us. If you meet with them you take the risk that you will be killed when they are. You rights are not a shield against any and all activities you might wish to take part in. There are lines you can not cross.
 
LeninGHOLA, do not confuse Law Enforcement with War, they are not the same.
 
lcpiper said:
You rights are not a shield against any and all activities you might wish to take part in. There are lines you can not cross.
Click to expand...

Um, wrong. So, so wrong. Even serial killers and child rapists still have rights if they are US citizens.

At least, they have rights when government agents choose to actually respect them. Sounds to me like you really enjoy arbitrary enforcement of the law...which is known as corruption.
 
Neither were the bystanders that are blown into pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or just trying to remove dead bodies from the streets.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
He wasn't a proven enemy combatant. Neither was his son.
Click to expand...

Weird thing: John Walker Lindh was a proven enemy combatant, and no drones were involved. Bush the Warmonger took him alive. Obama the Nobel Peace Prizer? Well...
 
Stiletto said:
Weird thing: John Walker Lindh was a proven enemy combatant, and no drones were involved. Bush the Warmonger took him alive. Obama the Nobel Peace Prizer? Well...
Click to expand...

I'm all for taking and prosecuting these people to the fullest extent of the law. Ignoring constitutional law because it makes pulling the trigger easier is throwing away our ideals for convenience isn't something I find reasonable.
 
Also, the at the least dozens of instances where NSA employees were abusing their technological ability to spy on potentially unfaithful (US citizen) spouses on their free time. So use your brain again and think of what they do for 'National Security' hidden in secrecy (have not yet been caught for) when they're actually working.
Click to expand...

Talked about this over and over. That LOVEINT article.
]Also, the at the least dozens of instances where NSA employees were abusing their technological ability to spy on potentially unfaithful (US citizen) spouses on their free time.
Click to expand...
In almost every case the spouse, possible girlfriend, whoever, was a foreign national and not a US Citizen, not even a US Person. The employees that did this were not violating anyone's US protected privacy rights, they were misusing NSA authority and power. The very few that actually did try to gain access to US Person's data were all caught before the information was compromised with one exception, one case where a female employee was investigating a foreign national as a legitimate part of her job and then did a search on his brother, received and viewed the data, realized he was a US Person and protected because she didn't check first, and she reported her violation herself.

I'll give you another one, how about good law abiding citizens being killed in other countries by drone strikes for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Click to expand...
These people who are enemies, who are actively trying to find ways to kill Americans, they are the ones who bring war to the innocents, if they cared at all about them they wouldn't hide among them. Let's give it a stretch and call the terrorist a freedom fighter, who's freedom are we denying in Yemen? Do we have cops in Yemen or Soldiers repressing the people of Yemen? What freedom are they fighting for in Yemen? Why are they there? There are there because they have people who will offer them haven, protection, and support. These freedom fighters could live in farm houses away from others just as well right? Why risk others being hurt. But they don't, they hide close to innocents hoping that with each attack we launch we will kill innocents and provide propaganda.

But just because I know what's going on doesn't mean I support it. And it doesn't have a damn thing to do with accusations of NSA privacy violations against US Citizens.

MasonD, just as you lump every government wrong into a debate about a specific government organization, you also make the same stupid error to assume that I back everything the Feds do and stand steadfast against the entire collection. I do not, and you are wrong to think so.
 
Weird thing: John Walker Lindh was a proven enemy combatant, and no drones were involved.
Click to expand...
Come on Stiletto, they caught him alive on the ground in the act. Didn't even know who he was until they started processing him at the detention center and his prints came back belonging to an American.

He wasn't a proven enemy combatant. Neither was his son.
Click to expand...
Dad was with other targets at a meeting, no one but the people involved and with access to the info even know if they knew he was there, they might have been targeting the others at the meeting and killed him without knowing he was there. As for his son, I wouldn't put it past the them to use the kid as a shield and a propaganda spot.

I can tell you while I was in Iraq Jihadist's would show up to come fight "the Great Satan" and kill Americans. The Iraqi's, Sunni, Shia, both sides, would grab these guys, throw them in a basement, drug them, beat them, and eventually force them to run suicide bombs into markets and shit to kill their rivals. They weren't even trying to kill our guys, they were just using these radicalized fools as tool for their own internal battles, we spent more time trying to keep the two groups from killing each other then we ever spent actually fighting them.
 
I'm all for taking and prosecuting these people to the fullest extent of the law. Ignoring constitutional law because it makes pulling the trigger easier is throwing away our ideals for convenience isn't something I find reasonable.
Click to expand...

By the way, why do it? If al-Awlaki wasn't a real threat, if he wasn't actively aiding the enemy or even worse, and that Wiki compilation certainly makes a case for it, become the enemy. Why even bother? If the guy wasn't a real threat and there he is living in Yemen with his son, why would we kill him?
Obama, Mr. Apologist, the Muslim Brotherhood poster boy, the guy behind Holder, Benghazi (Hillary Clinton is more culpable but Obama sure isn't doing a thing but try to keep the stink off him for it and doesn't seem to care one iota about what actually happened and why it was allowed to happen the way it did). Why would Obama put this dude on a kill/capture list?
 
lcpiper said:
Dad was with other targets at a meeting, no one but the people involved and with access to the info even know if they knew he was there, they might have been targeting the others at the meeting and killed him without knowing he was there. As for his son, I wouldn't put it past the them to use the kid as a shield and a propaganda spot.

I can tell you while I was in Iraq Jihadist's would show up to come fight "the Great Satan" and kill Americans. The Iraqi's, Sunni, Shia, both sides, would grab these guys, throw them in a basement, drug them, beat them, and eventually force them to run suicide bombs into markets and shit to kill their rivals. They weren't even trying to kill our guys, they were just using these radicalized fools as tool for their own internal battles, we spent more time trying to keep the two groups from killing each other then we ever spent actually fighting them.
Click to expand...

Nasty business, but rights are rights.
 
lcpiper said:
By the way, why do it? If al-Awlaki wasn't a real threat, if he wasn't actively aiding the enemy or even worse, and that Wiki compilation certainly makes a case for it, become the enemy. Why even bother? If the guy wasn't a real threat and there he is living in Yemen with his son, why would we kill him?
Obama, Mr. Apologist, the Muslim Brotherhood poster boy, the guy behind Holder, Benghazi (Hillary Clinton is more culpable but Obama sure isn't doing a thing but try to keep the stink off him for it and doesn't seem to care one iota about what actually happened and why it was allowed to happen the way it did). Why would Obama put this dude on a kill/capture list?
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain he was a threat, not as a combatant, but as a planner and organizer. He still needed to be tried the same way we would McVeigh, a person who directly killed many people in a terrorist fashion.
 
Nasty business, but rights are rights.
Click to expand...
Not if you go to war against us, best to stay away from the other side, avoid their little get-togethers if you don't wana become mush.
Your citizenship is not a magic shield that protects you when you enter a theater of war and aid the enemy.

And what the hell about the rights of the people that were killed by folks who talk with this guy. I mean it hasn't just been one.
 
He still needed to be tried the same way we would McVeigh
Click to expand...

If they had caught him in a raid, do you think he would have gone to trial or would they have done a Bin Laden on his ass?
 
lcpiper said:
In almost every case the spouse, possible girlfriend, whoever, was a foreign national and not a US Citizen, not even a US Person.The employees that did this were not violating anyone's US protected privacy rights, they were misusing NSA authority and power. <----(This is what the NSA does) The very few that actually did try to gain access to US Person's data were all caught before the information was compromised with one exception, one case where a female employee was investigating a foreign national as a legitimate part of her job and then did a search on his brother, received and viewed the data, realized he was a US Person and protected because she didn't check first, and she reported her violation herself.
Click to expand...

If it's 'almost' then the rest of this is bullshit already. You think they told the truth about it all too...lol. And with that said that was their PR excuse, that doesn't mean it was the actual truth. However it's well established anything they tell you must be true, as from your previous posts.

These people who are enemies, who are actively trying to find ways to kill Americans, they are the ones who bring war to the innocents, if they cared at all about them they wouldn't hide among them.
Click to expand...

Except a lot of the people they kill are normal everyday citizens and no brainwashed excuse is justifiable. Drone strikes are illegal internationally and a form of terrorism no matter what!

Why risk others being hurt. But they don't, they hide close to innocents hoping that with each attack we launch we will kill innocents and provide propaganda.
Click to expand...

Oh, you mean like having US intelligence agencies by schools or the US purposely killing innocent people to incite more hatred? Fuck, you have some serious biased views

But just because I know what's going on doesn't mean I support it.
Click to expand...

Of course you do. No reason to lie about it now.

And it doesn't have a damn thing to do with accusations of NSA privacy violations against US Citizens.
Click to expand...

Of course it does as a lot of the other agencies receive their intel from the NSA and it's already obvious enough that the NSA violates everything it gets its hands on. It admits this much...lol.

MasonD, just as you lump every government wrong into a debate about a specific government organization, you also make the same stupid error to assume that I back everything the Feds do and stand steadfast against the entire collection. I do not, and you are wrong to think so.
Click to expand...

I gave you NSA related problems and I don't see your stance that way, not one bit. In your mind everyone else is the bad guys (You use the word terrorist like a politician) and the US GOV is filled with a bunch of selfless good guys fighting for nothing more than what's right. Of course totally ignoring the evil overthrowing of governments we have no business doing, bullying the world, and starting wars killing innocent people, for profit.

I also noticed how you didn't mention the people targeted by the NSA for just running certain programs on their computers or and the war on whistle-blowers. I don't care if they made it illegal to come forward either, that's corruption at its best. Good guys have to come forward to prevent things from getting worse. That's the reality we live in.
 
lcpiper said:
Checking.
Click to expand...

Here's an additional article on the matter. When pressed on the killing of the 16-year-old, Holder's response, sifted from a lot of BS, was that the kid was "not specifically targeted". We've never gotten clarification from official government sources as to why that particular language was used, but knowing this administration, it was used either to hide something or because there was a serious intelligence breakdown...and either is quite possible.

Whatever information has been passed around the Senate Intelligence Committee, they have seen fit to tighten the rules regarding targeted attacks of this nature. That's going to be a real pain in the ass given the recent news that no, we're not going to be out of Afghanistan by 2014 and probably not by the end of Obama's second term.

The War on Terror is lost. Our populace is terrorized into complacency. Media companies that could buy and sell nations won't even allow the name "Mohammed" to be broadcast during a half-hour comedy show. "Islamophobia" is now as common a rebuttal to criticism of Islam as "racism" is to criticism of Obama's policies. The conventional war is immaterial. The cultural war is over, and we lost. Europe's showing more backbone.
 
lcpiper said:
Not if you go to war against us, best to stay away from the other side, avoid their little get-togethers if you don't wana become mush.
Your citizenship is not a magic shield that protects you when you enter a theater of war and aid the enemy.

And what the hell about the rights of the people that were killed by folks who talk with this guy. I mean it hasn't just been one.
Click to expand...

Theater of war in Yemen? He was specifically targeted for the attack. This wasn't a war zone.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
Theater of war in Yemen? He was specifically targeted for the attack. This wasn't a war zone.
Click to expand...

Apparently any country we covertly fly drones over is a "war zone".

Wait...aren't they going to be flying drones over US soil?

Um...
 
You think they told the truth about it all too...lol
Click to expand...

Yes Mason, I honestly do. I am from that world, I spent all of my younger adult life doing this kind of work. I do absolutely believe it and unlike you I do not leap off the deep end calling everything a lie.

That's just the way it is. I have my experience and knowledge, you have your hearsay and suppositions from people who just like you, think everything they do is wrong, that they are all corrupt, and that they do nothing at all that needs to be done.

But I can tell you this MasonD, the Soviet Union would have taken all of Europe and more if not for the NSA, South Korea would just be Communist Korea if not for the NSA and you would never have known the joys of Gang-Nam Style and millions would be lost without K-Pop. And this new economic powerhouse called China would have had no reason to turn to peaceful economic coexistence with what would have remained of the western world.

I think that means your own life might have been very different then you might imagine. I am not saying you should bow down and thank god at the rising of the sun each day that the NSA is looking out for you. I am saying that to blindly ignore all that they have accomplished for our country, (and that includes you if you are an American), is not in your best interests.

I have heard some of you say that we should just shut them down, close up shop. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Apparently any country we covertly fly drones over is a "war zone".

Wait...aren't they going to be flying drones over US soil?

Um...
Click to expand...

It's not called the Global War on Terror for nothing. What, you didn't get the memo?
NSA has no Drones, who is "they"?
 
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_1764.html

Yemen
August 06, 2013

The U.S. Department of State warns U.S. citizens of the high security threat level in Yemen due to terrorist activities and civil unrest. The Department urges U.S. citizens to defer travel to Yemen and those U.S. citizens currently living in Yemen to depart immediately.

On August 6, 2013, the Department of State ordered the departure of non-emergency U.S. government personnel from Yemen due to the continued potential for terrorist attacks.

U.S. citizens currently in Yemen should depart. As staff levels at the Embassy are restricted, our ability to assist U.S. citizens in an emergency and provide routine consular services remains limited and may be further constrained by the fluid security situation. This supersedes the Travel Warning for Yemen issued on July 16, 2013.

The security threat level in Yemen is extremely high. In September 2012, a mob attacked the U.S. Embassy compound. Demonstrations continue to take place in various parts of the country and may quickly escalate and turn violent. U.S. citizens are urged to avoid areas of demonstrations, and to exercise extreme caution if within the vicinity of a demonstration.

Terrorist organizations, including Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), continue to be active throughout Yemen. The U.S. government remains highly concerned about possible attacks on U.S. citizens (whether visiting or residing in Yemen), and U.S. facilities, businesses, and perceived U.S. and Western interests. A U.S. citizen was attacked and killed in Taiz on March 18, 2012 and the press reported that AQAP claimed responsibility. An ongoing risk of kidnapping exists throughout Yemen. In the last year, international and local media have reported several kidnappings of Westerners. Violent crime is also a growing problem; local media reported the murder of two U.S. citizens in Taiz and Aden in 2013. In addition, piracy in the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden, and Indian Ocean is a security threat to maritime activities in the region. See our International Maritime Piracy Fact Sheet.

U.S. government-facilitated evacuations occur only when no safe commercial alternatives exist. Evacuation assistance is provided on a cost-recovery basis, which means the traveler must reimburse the U.S. government for travel costs. The lack of a valid U.S. passport may hinder U.S. citizens' ability to depart the country and may slow the U.S. Embassy's ability to provide assistance. U.S. citizens in Yemen should ensure that they have proper and current documentation at all times. For more information, see "What the Department of State Can and Can't Do in a Crisis" on the Department's Internet website. Evacuation options from Yemen are extremely limited due to the lack of infrastructure, geographic constraints, and other security concerns. The U.S. government typically evacuates U.S. citizens to a safe haven, and travelers are responsible for making their own onward travel plans. Travelers should not expect to be evacuated to the United States.

U.S. citizens remaining in Yemen despite this Travel Warning should limit nonessential travel within the country, make their own contingency emergency plans, enroll their presence in Yemen through the Smart Traveler Enrollment Program (STEP), and provide their current contact information and next-of-kin or emergency contact information. If you wish to depart Yemen, you should make plans and depart as soon as possible. The airport is open and commercial flights are operating. There are no current plans for U.S. government-sponsored evacuations. U.S. citizens seeking to depart Yemen are responsible for making their own travel arrangements.

The U.S. Embassy in Sana'a is located at Dhahr Himyar Zone, Sheraton Hotel District, P.O. Box 22347. The telephone number of the Consular Section is (967)(1)755-2000, extension 2153 or 2266. For after-hours emergencies involving U.S. citizens, please call(967)(1)755-2000 (press zero for extension) or (967) 733-213-509. From time to time the Embassy may temporarily close or suspend public services for security reasons. Emergency assistance to U.S. citizens during non-business hours (or when public access is restricted) is available through Embassy duty personnel.

For the latest security information, U.S. citizens living and traveling abroad should regularly monitor the State Department's Bureau of Consular Affairs Internet website where the current Worldwide Caution, Travel Alerts, Travel Warnings, and Country Specific Information for Yemen can be found. Up-to-date information on security can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the United States and Canada or, for callers in other countries, by calling a regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).

The U.S. Embassy also encourages U.S. citizens to review "A Safe Trip Abroad," which includes valuable security information for those living and traveling abroad. Follow us on Twitter and the Bureau of Consular Affairs page on Facebook as well. Download our free Smart Traveler app, available through iTunes or Google Play to have travel information at your fingertips.
Click to expand...
 
lcpiper said:
It's not called the Global War on Terror for nothing. What, you didn't get the memo?
NSA has no Drones, who is "they"?
Click to expand...

I like that you acknowledge that the "War on Terror" - which is nothing more than a catchphrase, by the way - means we can treat any area in the world as a war zone. Way to score another point for government accountability, there.

I didn't say the NSA, so please don't pretend that I did. I said "they" meaning the US government. And by the way...the NSA effectively has access to drones.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
So, the whole globe is a theater of war? Wow, the implications are mind numbing.
Click to expand...

And the smug attitude about that dystopian paradigm is just icing on the cake. "Hey man...War on Terror...don't look at us cross-eyed if you don't want a bunch of people to die."
 
Yes LeninGHOLA, since immediately after 9/11 our Country will pursue terrorists anywhere they are able. That's the way it is, how in hell did you miss it?
 
lcpiper said:
Yes LeninGHOLA, since immediately after 9/11 our Country will pursue terrorists anywhere they are able. That's the way it is, how in hell did you miss it?
Click to expand...

Then you have declared a never-ending war...and a lot of us want no part in a perpetual excuse to restrict rights and spend taxpayer money. ObamaCare is bad enough on its own.
 
lcpiper said:
Yes LeninGHOLA, since immediately after 9/11 our Country will pursue terrorists anywhere they are able. That's the way it is, how in hell did you miss it?
Click to expand...

That's good news. We don't have to abide by the laws we set in place to prevent such a clusterfuck anymore. We can kill anyone, anywhere and for any reason. Who cares about international laws? I'm starting to think you watched Star Wars and cried when the Emperor died.
 
I like that you acknowledge that the "War on Terror" - which is nothing more than a catchphrase, by the way - means we can treat any area in the world as a war zone.
Click to expand...

Nothing more then a catchphrase? Stiletto, your brighter then this man. Did the US do what it is now doing before the "Global War on Terror"? Has this era not marked a change in US Policy in regards to terrorism at many levels? If you think it's a meaningless catch phrase then you miss what happens behind the curtain completely. The gloves are off and they are probably going to stay off for awhile still.

I didn't say the NSA, so please don't pretend that I did. I said "they" meaning the US government. And by the way...the NSA effectively has access to drones.
Click to expand...

But the NSA is what the discussion is about. Not Obama, the ACA, Milly Circus, or fuck all anything else, the discussion was about the NSA.

the NSA effectively has access to drones.
Click to expand...
To do what? The NSA is an Intelligence Agency so unless that Agency needs a drone to do electronic surveilance then what would it need a drone for. The NSA doesn't do Imagery, they don't do HUMINT spy operations, they don't do covert operations, their people don't even do weapons qualification unless they are a security guard. The NSA has absolutely no need or use for an armed Weapon System and if someone says they do then that person does not know what they are talking about.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
That's good news. We don't have to abide by the laws we set in place to prevent such a clusterfuck anymore. We can kill anyone, anywhere and for any reason. Who cares about international laws? I'm starting to think you watched Star Wars and cried when the Emperor died.
Click to expand...

Plus, now it's OK for us to execute pre-emptive strikes on anyone we see as a potential threat. Who cares if we signed some silly papers in Geneva?
 
lcpiper said:
Stiletto, your brighter then this man.
Click to expand...

This made me smile.

But the NSA is what the discussion is about. Not Obama, the ACA, Milly Circus, or fuck all anything else, the discussion was about the NSA.
Click to expand...

Settle down. You're getting tetchy.

To do what? The NSA is an Intelligence Agency so unless that Agency needs a drone to do electronic surveilance then what would it need a drone for. The NSA doesn't do Imagery, they don't do HUMINT spy operations, they don't do covert operations, their people don't even do weapons qualification unless they are a security guard. The NSA has absolutely no need or use for an armed Weapon System and if someone says they do then that person does not know what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Not all drones are armed, nor did I suggest that the drones being considered for domestic surveillance were armed.
 
I'm starting to think you watched Star Wars and cried when the Emperor died.
Click to expand...

No, LeninGHOLA, I was driving my daughter to school and couldn't get through the main gate at Fort Huachuca in Sierra Vista, Arizona. The traffic was backup up all the way into town and a guy was crossing the street and I asked him if he knew what was going on, he said terrorist had flown plains into the Twin Towers. I called my boss who said to go home until needed so we went home and I watched the second tower come down, and the footage from the Pentagon burning, and the the reports of Flight 93 crashing into the countryside. I watched as we learned that almost 3,000 people were killed. So no I did not cry for the Emperor but I have not forgotten these people, their families, the soldiers who have died and been hurt, their families. They are all around me every day so the Emperor is a little far from my thoughts.

They will do it again if we give them a chance, they sure haven't stopped, maybe we haven't figured out the best ways to deal with them, but it still does not change the simple fact that they sure as hell haven't offered any olive branches.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top