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Supreme Court Blocks Challenge To NSA Phone Tracking
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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Holy fuck that newsreader is hot.
Something pretty to look at while hearing ugly news.
No, I am not asking for news reports. I am asking you Stiletto, personally, a question. How does the NSA monitor the private communications of US Citizens?
By the way, cute Youtube video, says a lot of inaccurate nothing that we have covered before. The first violations she talks about were the ones about the program that the NSA discontinued in . The second report is about the NSA telling the FISA Court that there were 2.700 or so records that were involved in a security violation, so technically 2.700 security violations although it didn't actually happen 2,700 times. The last is the report about the real privacy rights violations that occurred over about the last ten years that once you distil them down amount to so employees fucking up, about one a year, and getting fired or resigning to avoid punishment. Most of them didn't even involve a US Person much less a US Citizen. The video is useless.
Find me some meat brother cause all you keep pulling out is cheeze.
By the way, cute Youtube video, says a lot of inaccurate nothing that we have covered before. The first violations she talks about were the ones about the program that the NSA discontinued in . The second report is about the NSA telling the FISA Court that there were 2.700 or so records that were involved in a security violation, so technically 2.700 security violations although it didn't actually happen 2,700 times. The last is the report about the real privacy rights violations that occurred over about the last ten years that once you distil them down amount to so employees fucking up, about one a year, and getting fired or resigning to avoid punishment. Most of them didn't even involve a US Person much less a US Citizen. The video is useless.
Find me some meat brother cause all you keep pulling out is cheeze.
Why are you asking me when experts have already explained the situation for months now? Sorry, that's a rhetorical question. You're setting up your old trap. You're going back to "who are the names of the people who specifically did this? When? How do you know it was them?" Basically red herrings designed to fracture an argument on the basis of lack of details that no reasonable person could possibly be expected to know. You've done this before, demanding details of government corruption from the fallacious view of "if you can't tell me who in government is corrupt, then you don't know that there is corruption in government". It's gotten no more relevant, months later. It is quite a crafty twist on argument from authority, though.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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Not to worry. He will blame the "media" and the Saudis soon enough. Or was it the Jews?
No, this is not the argument. the argument, tho you refuse to acknowledge it, is claims of proof that do not exist. You can't say there is proof and not be able to at least point to it. But just like this video that makes terrific claims, it is again vague and there is no proof, just noise that it's supposed to be true.
In this round I am just asking how they do it? I am not trying to pin you down to a technical description of how the actually pull it off, just a general statement. A loose description of how they are doing it. I thought I knew but turned out I was wrong. Gen. Alexander explained it in a video someone linked to just the other day, Some Senator Johnson was questioning him I think.
Wait, you don't want a technical description of how they pull it off, but just a general statement? It's rather difficult to boil down methods of gathering and archiving various types of data and information from various sources to a general statement, particularly when the man you cited, Keith Alexander, has already admitted to lying about the reasons for it. Lies, I might add, that you perpetrated unwittingly. I should imagine you would be even more incensed about being misled in such a fashion. Probably why he's quitting even with the fog of ObamaCare easily obscuring public interest. I forget the number of metadata records from emails and phone calls that have been archived by the NSA and shared with various organizations like the DEA. Numbers that huge are easily lost track of, as with things like the national debt. After a while, the enormity defeats memory. Then there's the buddy lists and address books.
Probably why Yahoo has suddenly decided to start using encryption with their consumer services, which is totally revolutionary in 2013. Next up: Excite announces their social media app!
Do you have actual proof they discontinued it?
Do you have actual proof to back up this claim?
Also I guess you just missed that they repeatedly did it and also lied to the court about the details of their reach.
Anything can be useless if you have a closed mind.
I'll explain my take this way and maybe this time I can get it done in a way that strikes a different note.
When a legitimate collection target sends a message we have the capability to grab it. But only if we know who this target is. But there are other legitimate targets we haven't caught onto yet or who are using new communications practices that we haven't identified yet. Now if you have a big pool with everything in it, then it's in there, the trick is finding it without messing with stuff that you are not supposed to mess with. Now they can't just rummage around in the pool, that's not cool, so they need ways to use other information in order to figure out how to target the stuff in the pool that they need.
Don't get off track now, these individuals, the targets, they are not US Persons, they have no privacy protections, they are the people the NSA is supposed to be watching and are legitimate intelligence collection targets.
The NSA uses different techniques to identify the selectors that are needed in order to extract the right data from this pool. These techniques are not illegal, accessing the information from these targets is not illegal. They are not violating any US Person's privacy extracting this data.
Now we shift gears and while using these techniques an NSA analyst identifies a US Person who may be involved and doing things they should not be doing. The NSA passes the information to the FBI. The FBI opens an investigation to determine if a US Person is in fact collaborating with our enemies. The FBI will investigate using many traditional methods, interviewing known associates, checking arrest records, etc. And they may ask the NSA to search for additional electronic data. This request must be specific and have enough corroborating evidence that the FISA Court will grant the request.
It's been pointed out that the FISA Court grants almost all requests, people have likened it to a "rubber stamp" process. This of course suggests that the FISA Court is too lenient and I can't say they are or if they are not, I do not know. But I do know there is a second reason for the high approval rate, that the NSA is very thorough in preparing proper requests and that they are approved because they are far more often then not, appropriate. Again, I do not know which, but it is at this point in the process that the President and others propose adding additional safe guards and overwatch. One other item of note, as Gen. Alexander pointed out to Senator Johnson, in order for the FISA Court to approve the search for US Person's data from this big pool, they must get a Warrant for the search. The only searches that do not require a Warrant are the ones conducted against non-US Persons who are valid Intelligence Targets.
There have been cases, about one a year, where an employee, usually a contractor, also usually one posted to an overseas location, has violated the rules for personal reasons. Almost all quit, retired before the NSA could punish them, or were fired. Every one of them lost their Security Clearance with perhaps one exception, an Analyst who ran a search on a US Person by mistake while checkout out a legitimate Foreign Target. She was reprimanded, retrained, but was allowed to continue working. Also, most of the others were referred to the DoJ for criminal charges yet in many cases the DoJ did not prosecute, perhaps because several of the cases did not involve US Persons but Foreign Nationals instead.
So this is how it's done. There is certainly more to it. But this is what they have said they do and no one has shown any proof that they do anything different. But they have done a very good job of getting people to believe that the NSA is reading everything and watching everyone and as a previous poster commented "Hi NSA".
When a legitimate collection target sends a message we have the capability to grab it. But only if we know who this target is. But there are other legitimate targets we haven't caught onto yet or who are using new communications practices that we haven't identified yet. Now if you have a big pool with everything in it, then it's in there, the trick is finding it without messing with stuff that you are not supposed to mess with. Now they can't just rummage around in the pool, that's not cool, so they need ways to use other information in order to figure out how to target the stuff in the pool that they need.
Don't get off track now, these individuals, the targets, they are not US Persons, they have no privacy protections, they are the people the NSA is supposed to be watching and are legitimate intelligence collection targets.
The NSA uses different techniques to identify the selectors that are needed in order to extract the right data from this pool. These techniques are not illegal, accessing the information from these targets is not illegal. They are not violating any US Person's privacy extracting this data.
Now we shift gears and while using these techniques an NSA analyst identifies a US Person who may be involved and doing things they should not be doing. The NSA passes the information to the FBI. The FBI opens an investigation to determine if a US Person is in fact collaborating with our enemies. The FBI will investigate using many traditional methods, interviewing known associates, checking arrest records, etc. And they may ask the NSA to search for additional electronic data. This request must be specific and have enough corroborating evidence that the FISA Court will grant the request.
It's been pointed out that the FISA Court grants almost all requests, people have likened it to a "rubber stamp" process. This of course suggests that the FISA Court is too lenient and I can't say they are or if they are not, I do not know. But I do know there is a second reason for the high approval rate, that the NSA is very thorough in preparing proper requests and that they are approved because they are far more often then not, appropriate. Again, I do not know which, but it is at this point in the process that the President and others propose adding additional safe guards and overwatch. One other item of note, as Gen. Alexander pointed out to Senator Johnson, in order for the FISA Court to approve the search for US Person's data from this big pool, they must get a Warrant for the search. The only searches that do not require a Warrant are the ones conducted against non-US Persons who are valid Intelligence Targets.
There have been cases, about one a year, where an employee, usually a contractor, also usually one posted to an overseas location, has violated the rules for personal reasons. Almost all quit, retired before the NSA could punish them, or were fired. Every one of them lost their Security Clearance with perhaps one exception, an Analyst who ran a search on a US Person by mistake while checkout out a legitimate Foreign Target. She was reprimanded, retrained, but was allowed to continue working. Also, most of the others were referred to the DoJ for criminal charges yet in many cases the DoJ did not prosecute, perhaps because several of the cases did not involve US Persons but Foreign Nationals instead.
So this is how it's done. There is certainly more to it. But this is what they have said they do and no one has shown any proof that they do anything different. But they have done a very good job of getting people to believe that the NSA is reading everything and watching everyone and as a previous poster commented "Hi NSA".
MasonD, I have the same proof you have. That you read, hell I assume you read or give you credit for reading such news reports, maybe all you do is read the headlines, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. But that you read them and the links to the "supporting documents". they do that you know, the blue highlighted underlined text in the articles that link to the reference documents. I give you credit for reading them too.
But I also give you credit for reading something and not understanding what you are reading. There are dozens of these supporting documents that show something, like the Training Slide that explains a technique for exploiting data from Google. The reporters claim it proved that the NSA was hacking Google but that is not proof at all. What it did prove is that Google was used in the training slide because Google is a well known name and makes it easy for the students to understand the principles of the technique. It's so much easier for a student to see and understand Google as representative of an ISP then to use some obscure and rarely known name like Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation. If they did use Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation then they would have to divert and explain that it's a major Japanese ISP, "Like Google". And the students would all go "Ahhh, I get it". It was a training slide used to explain a technique that now becomes proof that the NSA routinely hacks Google.
Don't feel bad, thousands just like you all bought it too.
But I also give you credit for reading something and not understanding what you are reading. There are dozens of these supporting documents that show something, like the Training Slide that explains a technique for exploiting data from Google. The reporters claim it proved that the NSA was hacking Google but that is not proof at all. What it did prove is that Google was used in the training slide because Google is a well known name and makes it easy for the students to understand the principles of the technique. It's so much easier for a student to see and understand Google as representative of an ISP then to use some obscure and rarely known name like Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation. If they did use Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation then they would have to divert and explain that it's a major Japanese ISP, "Like Google". And the students would all go "Ahhh, I get it". It was a training slide used to explain a technique that now becomes proof that the NSA routinely hacks Google.
Don't feel bad, thousands just like you all bought it too.
And I don't have a closed mind. I am open and inquisitive. I am also neither ignorant nor gulable. I have spent over 30 years working as a SIGINT Collector/Operator, an Intel Analyst, an Instructor, a Field Support Technician, a Sysadmin, and now a software engineer. I have always been learning. My wife is from another country, I still love games, on PCs, consoles don't do it for me. And if you PM me directly you might see just how open I can be, others have. But I do know what I know, I'll admit when I am wrong, or if I am shown to be wrong. But on this subject you haven't done this yet.
The NSA was ordered to stop the program, they say they did, no one has shown that they didn't. They did start a new program later that was different that the FISA Court did allow. There is no reason to think that the NSA didn't stop it as ordered and the creation of the new program suggests they did in fact stop the old and begin the new in a manner acceptable to the same people who told them to stop it's predecessor.
The documents with detailed information was published a couple of weeks ago, linked to by the [H] (Steve), and debated here in these forums just as this one is.
Do you know how to use the search function, or just look up my previous posts?
My proof is as good as yours and I know my research is better.
Retronym
[H]F Junkie
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Trust me, they know about me.
You've been wrong for a long time now. Way past that phase, captain.
However an inquisitive person will remember that they've been caught lying enough times by now and last time I checked you can't just walk in and ask to look around to actually verify it. So you take their word for it while I live in reality.
Oh, it was 'different', thanks, that clears that all up, sweet!
There is a lot of reasons to think they just changed the name and/or made it worse. Not better!
Irrelavant as we can't know what they do behind closed doors without someone leaking info and thus ruining their life in the process. But, oh, so they were doing inappropriate stuff and then just stopped gathering that data, that they were collecting because it was deemed necessary, got it! Yeah, delusional. All they really did was change some names and continued on, as was.
No thanks.
'Better', as in it coincides with your own (the US GOV is the only good guys) biased personal opinion and "the NSA is a necessary evil" kind of person. In my life it's usually brainwashed military people that think this way. Everyone is a terrorist but the biggest terrorists of all, YES, the USfuckingGOV. Drone striking kids is terrorism FYI! War for profit IS terrorism.
Nothing you see now or read in this life that's fact will change this, in my opinion at least. The NSA could knock on your door and say they're breaking numerous laws and you'd say they don't know that without proving to little ol' you they really are. Back to reality, that won't happen, so you're staying right where you are right now. Good luck with that (see below).
Delusional.
Retronym
[H]F Junkie
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Wrong. And this is the crux of where we part ways. Abdulrahman al-Awlaki.
They are doing this to protect "them" from "us" while pretending it's for our own safety from the terrorists.... Next step will be like VforV where they drive around in vans listening to your private conversations at home. But this will be to "protect" us from terrorists living among us.. The only terrorists here are the ones running the country.
And we wouldn't need protection if we stopped trying to be the world police that goes and fucks with other countries for profit....
Shalafi
Fully [H]
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Government doing what it does best.
Playing the "national security" card to protect itself and to remain unaccountable for the illegal and unconstitutional stuff it does.
Playing the "national security" card to protect itself and to remain unaccountable for the illegal and unconstitutional stuff it does.
MasonD I am going to skip all your other ranking garbage and go straight to this one. Can you point to a single solitary instance where a US Citizen was jailed, hurt, damaged, fined, coerced, or put upon in any way that you can directly attribute to the NSA or information gathered by the NSA?
Pull your best card and show us where you or someone else has suffered from a violation of their privacy. Not the suspicion but the actual fact, show us the tyranny in action. Where is it?
Are you really questioning whether our government backed federal agencies wrongly target people? Holy wow, you've gone past the point of no return it would seem. I could bring up countless cases of the FBI entrapping innocent folks by coercing them into attempting a "terrorist" activity they would've never done otherwise. Or how about those ridiculous drone strikes? But I guess since the intelligence gathered on those targets didn't include American citizens, it's all good. But oh wait, the USA HAS killed a few American citizens, hasn't it?
And please refrain from introducing inaccurate hunches, guesses, suppositions, and generally fucked up shit like this as your evidence.
The picture by the way is not of Catalano but of some other woman who is being evacuated from her home when the Feds and Cops were searching for Tsarnaev Brothers.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/1/4580654/michele-catalano-google-search-pressure-cookers-backpacks-bomb-scare
This is what Catalano thaught and told people and everyone believed.
But this is what actually happened and it was her own former employer who brought this about.
http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/08/government-knocking-doors-because-google-searches/67864/
The picture by the way is not of Catalano but of some other woman who is being evacuated from her home when the Feds and Cops were searching for Tsarnaev Brothers.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/1/4580654/michele-catalano-google-search-pressure-cookers-backpacks-bomb-scare
This is what Catalano thaught and told people and everyone believed.
But this is what actually happened and it was her own former employer who brought this about.
http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/08/government-knocking-doors-because-google-searches/67864/
Nice goalpost shifting. The president has now executed an American citizen using drone technology, and similar technology is being pushed into our domestic skies. I want to take as much power away from those bastards as possible before the slide accelerates.
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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Basically anyone who is in prison (military or otherwise) without charges being brought against them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/05/us-drone-strike_n_2813857.html
Stiletto is this what you are talking about?
Stiletto is this what you are talking about?
I already gave you his name.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/opinion/the-drone-that-killed-my-grandson.html?_r=0
LeninGHOLA
Vladimir Hayt
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The Seattle Mayday anarchists.
Everyone that was targeted and had their computers attacked and compromised by the NSA just because they were running a program called TOR. There, now you have more than one person (100's to 1,000's is my guess), which is one of the things Edward Snowden informed us about, too. Also, the attack on all (any) whistleblowers that come forward with facts shedding light on corruptive behavior AKA everything done in secrecy under the guise of 'National Security'..
Also, the at the least dozens of instances where NSA employees were abusing their technological ability to spy on potentially unfaithful (US citizen) spouses on their free time. So use your brain again and think of what they do for 'National Security' hidden in secrecy (have not yet been caught for) when they're actually working.
I'll give you another one, how about good law abiding citizens being killed in other countries by drone strikes for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And if they weren't adding insult to injury coming back and doing double tap strikes when the people come to collect the bodies. For every person killed unjustly more anti-Americans pop up in their place, our intelligence agencies count on this to stay in business.
I found the name Stilleto, too many posters, so little time, I'll get to them.
I do find it a little strange you would select someone who has made statements that could only be viewed as an admission that he is an enemy of the US.
What would have been his fate if years before he was killed, if before Obama had signed off on putting him on that list, what if he had come forward and essentially "asked for a trial", lay the cards out on the table, this is who I am, what I do, why I do it. Would the courts have seen him as exercising his rights. You can't provide aid to an enemy and not eventually become the enemy as well.
Nothing I saw so far, but I have not read your linked article yet, said the NSA was involved, but I can't imagine that they were not. At the same time, if he is directly communication with enemies his privacy is no longer protected because the conversation involves enemies.
I am going to check out this article you linked but I had hoped you would be able to find someone who wasn't living in a foreign country and actively involved with so many who have attacked and killed Americans, soldiers and civilians. It just seems odd that you worry about this guy was treated knowing full well how he was involved in killing others.