Is this possible? - [Hard]|OCP can no longer recommend Nvidia cards.

Status
Not open for further replies.

pohzzer

n00b
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
42
Such a question could only apply to a brutally honest hard core gaming site like HardOCP.

IF a threshold is reached in Mantle developer support, Mantle performance gains and AMD high end GPU cost/performance.

The GPU question is answered, the 290 and 290x brought the sledgehammer down on Nvidia's mature cards at introduction with substantial driver and aftermarket performance gains to come.

When I see - "with Battlefield 4 running with Mantle the card (290x) will be able to 'ridicule' the Titan in terms of performance" (AMD exec) and " which lets us see dramatic increases in performance on Mantle-enabled systems" (Oxide site) - I'm thinking Mantle gains are going to be on the kick ass side of the meter.

We know EA./Dice are big on Mantle - "Super exited about Mantle!" (GPU13 slide and yes their emphasis) and Eidos Montreal, Oxide and Star Citizen just came out as Mantle users, Eidos Montreal is owned my Square Enix, so they would appear to be on board, Star Citizen uses Cry Engine 4 so Crytek appears to be on board, though that was expected, and Oxide is building what they consider the definitive real time strategy engine for next gen games. Activision's principal technical director tweeted "We'll have to support #Mantle now; wish it was just #OpenGL extensions though! Maybe someone will lightly wrap D3D or GL around it for us?" so looks like they're on board.

EA/Dice, Square Enix, Crytek, Oxide, Activision ... already formidable and more can be expected at APU13. The question is what AAA developer can competitively afford to ignore Mantle if it enjoys wide developer support and brings game changing performance gains to the table?

Back to HardOCP.

The 290 cards are new and running shitty coolers. What will HardOCP's Battlefield Mantle review look like with an aftermarket cooler, driver optimizations and Mantle? A cost/performance delta of 30%, 40%? Recommending an Nvidia card for BF4 would be out of the question. Extrapolate that out six months when several more developers are on board with Mantle, Nvidia would have to sell their boards at a loss to stay in the cost/performance ballpark on mantle games and AMD has at least parity on non Mantle games.

I would contend if the developer support is substantial and growing (probable) and Mantle brings game changing performance gains (probable) there will come a time when HardOCP will say they can no longer, in good faith, recommend Nvidia boards.

Please address the POINTS of my OP instead of attacking me. I'm more than happy to debate the points.
 
Last edited:
Yes and no. It'll take a long time before we see a significant number of games using Mantle, but I'm personally thinking that it *won't* be a long time until we see an announcement from Nvidia that they're making an API too.
 
I don't think it will be that quick. Secondly, with all of the profit Nvidia has made off raping people's wallets, they will remain competitive when their Maxwell comes out. As it sites there's nothing wrong with NV architecture... It's their blatant disregard for taking advantage of the consumer with absurd prices.

Wher NV needs to be concerned if AMD controlling both sides of the console market. This will definitely benefit AMD long term, but I wouldn't consider Nvidia out of the fight whatsoever .
 
I'd like to know when Nvidia them wallet ass rapers :) are going to get serious and drop the price of the TITANIC? And yes I'm going to keep calling it that because that is exactly what it is.. now. I got an awesome deal on one last week at $600 but now I'm thinking I paid to much :) I'd like to buy another for SLi for <$550. Not worth a cent more imo.
Or may just hold off for an MSI R290/x Lighting or Galaxy. AMD failed on the stock cooler on these new cards other than that they are awesome.
There will be alot of guys with TITANIC's that will be looking for cheap used cards to pair up now. They are not worth anywhere near $1000 new.

Titanic discontinued shortly after 780ti release?
 
Can you please PM me results of all remaining champions league matches ?
I could use some additional cash ;)
 
Yes and no. It'll take a long time before we see a significant number of games using Mantle, but I'm personally thinking that it *won't* be a long time until we see an announcement from Nvidia that they're making an API too.

Thank you for addressing the OP.

I agree it will be a while for Mantle games to arrive, but with a caveat:

Johan Andersson tweet - "yes the plan is once Mantle in #BF4 is done it's part of Frostbite & mostly 'out of the box' to use the rest of our 15+ games"

Oxide game site - "At the same time, the low cost of including Mantle support doesn’t prevent us from developing Nitrous for all modern graphics hardware, which makes it attractive to us as business people."

Strong indication that once Mantle is incorporated into an engine it is low cost to provide a Mantle path for a game, at release or post release. If a developer can easily add Mantle to an already released next gen game they probably will. That puts all next gen games into play as potential Mantle games.

Nvidia may have no choice but to join Mantle, and AMD has stated it's intentions to make it an open API, but WHEN that is done is up in the air. Not sure how Maxwell would work with that API either, at best it would be considerably more complex and less efficient than AMD"s straight forward identical architectures translation from the consoles.

Intel is going to face the same problem when going up against Kaveri, which is where the greatest Mantle performance gains will occur. It's really Kaveri 2.0. Coupled with a GCN 2.0 card that is additive (IF it is additive) to Kaveri's HSA/hUMA capability, that might well be the definitive gaming monster combination totally eclipsing both Nvidia AND Intel on next gen gaming performance.
 
I don't think it will be that quick. Secondly, with all of the profit Nvidia has made off raping people's wallets, they will remain competitive when their Maxwell comes out. As it sites there's nothing wrong with NV architecture... It's their blatant disregard for taking advantage of the consumer with absurd prices.

Wher NV needs to be concerned if AMD controlling both sides of the console market. This will definitely benefit AMD long term, but I wouldn't consider Nvidia out of the fight whatsoever .

That didn't stop anyone from buying said cards (need we be reminded of some of the quad-Titan setups in this forum?). When I read your post, OP - I had to quickly check [H]ardOCP to see if the Mantle review was out. Quite frankly, until it's reviewed - we won't know what the performance gains really are. And even then, it may be hard to get an absolute number, if DICE decides to spend the extra power with even more visual splendor than on the DX version of Battlefield 4.

Personally, I'm itching for someone to take advantage of that audio DSP that's built into the new Radeon's. I'm talking 512-voice, environment-mapped goodness. :eek: Just so that this doesn't delve into another flamewar (because let's be honest here - that's what this thread will bring), I think Nvidia cards are far from irrelevant. What we have here from AMD is a bunch of "could be's" and "has the potential to." None of the Mantle games are available to the public right now, and it's hard for me to believe that developers would purposefully punish gamers who use Nvidia cards (and vice versa) and marginalize the gamers who they depend on to buy their games. The only way I can see this happening is through financial kickbacks, which I'm sure there are plenty of on both sides.
 
I don't think it will be that quick. Secondly, with all of the profit Nvidia has made off raping people's wallets, they will remain competitive when their Maxwell comes out. As it sites there's nothing wrong with NV architecture... It's their blatant disregard for taking advantage of the consumer with absurd prices.

Wher NV needs to be concerned if AMD controlling both sides of the console market. This will definitely benefit AMD long term, but I wouldn't consider Nvidia out of the fight whatsoever .

That 'ass raping' is coming to an abrupt end based on the 290 and 290x alone. If APU13 shows wide developer support and the Mantle demonstrations show game changing performance gains, the ass raping is falling off a cliff. Not only will Nvidia's sales plummet, but the sales they do have will see slashed profit margins. Mantle's performance gains directly correlate to Nvidia's profit margins diminishing. Nvidia's GPU fortunes can turn on a dime. And probably will.
 
Last edited:
There once was a company called 3DFX, and a little pipsqueak upstart named Nvidia, completely ran them out of business. It was so bad that they felt sorry for them and purchased their business. With that said, I don't see 3DFX 2.0 occurring anytime soon. Nvidia has been cooking Maxwell for quite a few years by delaying it's launch with rehashes of the same chip, with one more set of cores enabled. These rehashes have made them millions in profits and their customers are very content to spend $700 - $1,000 a year for a "new" card with another set of cores enabled.

Now as far as Mantle goes, we don't have an idea how much faster it will make a single game. As buggy as BF4 is, I can't imagine it being released until May or so. Why would DICE tack on potential Mantle issues to the already buggy code that is BF4? That would be studio suicide.

So before we go proclaiming from the treetops that Nvidia is going out of business, and wondering how low should we purchase their stock, let's see what Mantle actually does for AMD performance. Also, why is a 4 day old account trolling the forums with obvious Flame Bait?
 
Thank you for addressing the OP.
Intel is going to face the same problem when going up against Kaveri, which is where the greatest Mantle performance gains will occur. It's really Kaveri 2.0. Coupled with a GCN 2.0 card that is additive (IF it is additive) to Kaveri's HSA/hUMA capability, that might well be the definitive gaming monster combination totally eclipsing both Nvidia AND Intel on next gen gaming performance.

Now this is interesting, and something that admittedly I haven't thought much of. Seeing what an APU could do with mantle would be very cool. But still - developers tend to use power as it's available. So while it's true that Mantle would allow for higher performance, I'm guessing that the developers will take the extra muscle and add more visuals to it - rather than just making it a plain 1:1 conversion - with the Mantle API being 100fps versus the 70fps in DX (this is obviously a speculative example here - don't quote me on these numbers).
 
Thank you for addressing the OP.

I agree it will be a while for Mantle games to arrive, but with a caveat:

Johan Andersson tweet - "yes the plan is once Mantle in #BF4 is done it's part of Frostbite & mostly 'out of the box' to use the rest of our 15+ games"

Oxide game site - "At the same time, the low cost of including Mantle support doesn’t prevent us from developing Nitrous for all modern graphics hardware, which makes it attractive to us as business people."

Strong indication that once Mantle is incorporated into an engine it is low cost to provide a Mantle path for a game, at release or post release. If a developer can easily add Mantle to an already released next gen game they probably will. That puts all next gen games into play as potential Mantle games.

Nvidia may have no choice but to join Mantle, and AMD has stated it's intentions to make it an open API, but WHEN that is done is up in the air. Not sure how Maxwell would work with that API either, at best it would be considerably more complex and less efficient than AMD"s straight forward identical architectures translation from the consoles.

Intel is going to face the same problem when going up against Kaveri, which is where the greatest Mantle performance gains will occur. It's really Kaveri 2.0. Coupled with a GCN 2.0 card that is additive (IF it is additive) to Kaveri's HSA/hUMA capability, that might well be the definitive gaming monster combination totally eclipsing both Nvidia AND Intel on next gen gaming performance.
Well, first, though a number of game developers say they will support Mantle, it's still some time until a significant amount of those games actually start appearing on the market.

Secondly, AMD doesn't need to make Mantle an open API; it's not something that Nvidia can use anyway, open or not. Nvidia will have to make their own, based on their own GPU architecture.

This will take some time, of course, but I feel pretty certain that Nvidia started working the moment AMD announced Mantle. Anything else would have been outrageous. And they're good at this stuff, as made apparent by CUDA.

And third, when Nvidia does finish their API, they'll press all the game developers to add support for it in existing titles ASAP.

So yeah, definitely an advantage to AMD for the next year or so. But after that? I think Nvidia will be right on their heels.

It's all good though. The end result of both of them having their own API, instead of having to mess around with DX/OpenGL, means more performance for us in all games.
 
That ass raping is coming to an abrupt end based on the 290 and 290x alone. If APU13 shows wide developer support and the Mantle demonstrations show game changing performance gains, the ass raping is falling off a cliff. Not only will Nvidia's sales plummet, but the sales they do have will see slashed profit margins. Mantle's performance gains directly correlate to Nvidia's profit margins diminishing. Nvidia's GPU fortunes can turn on a dime. And probably will.

The "ass raping," huh? Well, I think we can all see where this thread's going. :rolleyes:
 
@Raap. I did hear someone prophesying that Mantle could potentially have hooks where Nvidia could tack on their own code for CUDA cores and such. But most likely that was someone talking out of their rear end. :)
 
The "ass raping," huh? Well, I think we can all see where this thread's going. :rolleyes:

Going fast too, with a name that sounds like "poser" 4 days old.

I'm waiting to see what mantle brings, but I'm much more interested in G-sync.
 
Personally, I'm itching for someone to take advantage of that audio DSP that's built into the new Radeon's. I'm talking 512-voice, environment-mapped goodness. :eek: Just so that this doesn't delve into another flamewar (because let's be honest here - that's what this thread will bring), I think Nvidia cards are far from irrelevant. What we have here from AMD is a bunch of "could be's" and "has the potential to." None of the Mantle games are available to the public right now, and it's hard for me to believe that developers would purposefully punish gamers who use Nvidia cards (and vice versa) and marginalize the gamers who they depend on to buy their games. The only way I can see this happening is through financial kickbacks, which I'm sure there are plenty of on both sides.

It is a speculative thread, and depends on two major 'ifs', the OP is my case at to why those 'ifs' are more probable than not. They are arguable points and it is my sincere hope this thread will argue the points and not go awry.

Mantle allows developers to STRETCH their capabilities. Nvidia owners aren't losing performance with Mantle games, AMD owners are gaining performance. Important difference.
 
Last edited:
mantle will have to give AT LEST a 10% boost for to matter
if they cant get more then 15% its failure
Maxwell will walk all over it since it should get around the same but work with all games

i think AMD knows that they cant push GCN much more and remember they have locked them selves in to GCN for the next 10 years now so they cant make major changes or it breaks mantle
they have gutted there driver and engineering staff

but ether way nVidia makes next to nothing on the consumer level any more
real money is selling cards to the supercomputer guys
 
ultimately, i think that mantel will slightly effect prices into favoring amd cards at the expense of game engine developers who will be putting in extra effort, if they want their games to be graphically superior to their competitors.
 
Everyone must have forgotten the AMD release price of $550 for their 7970 nearly 2 years ago.

Im on neither side of the fence as I choose which GPU suits me at the time of purchase but both companies have gouged on prices. AMD gouged on the 7970 pretty badly @ $550 release price.
 
Now this is interesting, and something that admittedly I haven't thought much of. Seeing what an APU could do with mantle would be very cool. But still - developers tend to use power as it's available. So while it's true that Mantle would allow for higher performance, I'm guessing that the developers will take the extra muscle and add more visuals to it - rather than just making it a plain 1:1 conversion - with the Mantle API being 100fps versus the 70fps in DX (this is obviously a speculative example here - don't quote me on these numbers).

Dice mentioned an AMD team was building the Mantle path into Frostbite with 'assistance'' from EA/Dice. Kaveri's success being critical to AMD, it's a safe assumption Mantle will be intensely optimized for the fully HSA/hUMA capable Kaveri. Kaveri can be expected to show spectacular gaming performance on Mantle games.

If it's architected to be additive to and closely integrate with GCN 2.0 cards, which is highly probable, it will be a flat out gaming monster and paired with a 290 card possibly able to out perform Intel/Nvidia combos costing twice as much.
 
Last edited:
Most game development now is cross-platform between PC, XBox and Playstation. Microsoft and Sony certainly knew about Mantle during XBoxOne and PS4 development but chose to not support it. So now all Mantle will just be on PC where it competes with DirectX. Oh wait, maybe that's why Microsoft was not interested?

And then there's SteamOS, but that is being brought to you by Valve and Nvidia. So the PC gaming market will end up with two OSes - Windows and SteamOS - and three APIs - DirectX, OpenGL and Mantle. Oh yeah, I forgot, there is already an API that competes with DirectX that isn't even vendor-specific, and look how far it's gotten.

So an API that only supports one third of gaming PCs is going to suddenly bring game developers to forsake Nvidia and DirectX support? That's a fantasy.
 
Everyone must have forgotten the AMD release price of $550 for their 7970 nearly 2 years ago.

So fucking what? it was only 50$ more then 580, while being like 30% faster, and 60% faster when overclocked.

GTX780 > 20% faster > 250$ more then 7970GE see the difference?
 
Good god, speaking to you tools is like talking to a woman on her period. Buy what suits your needs at that time. Both sides have their downsides and upsides, neither is perfect. Get over it.

BTW, since when was the 7970 supposed to compete with the 580? It wasnt. 7970 competed with the 680 (which was late to the party). Back then, AMD gouged on the pricing and eventually dropped. Just like NV did this go around.

Nothing to see here, move on. Both companies are guilty.
 
Good god, speaking to you tools is like talking to a woman on her period. Buy what suits your needs at that time. Both sides have their downsides and upsides, neither is perfect. Get over it.

BTW, since when was the 7970 supposed to compete with the 580? It wasnt. 7970 competed with the 680 (which was late to the party). Back then, AMD gouged on the pricing and eventually dropped. Just like NV did this go around.

Nothing to see here, move on. Both companies are guilty.

No. Nvidia is raping with the prices, period. AMD is not, 7970 was released when 580 was priced 500$, and it was the only Nvidia high card at the time. When 680 was released, AMD lowered the price pretty fast, so don't give me that, "AMD is overcharging as well crap"

On top of that 7970 was like real high end card compared to the gimped 2GB/256 bit 680, when the 12.11 drivers came out, and with oc it was destroying the 680, and yet Nvidi&#1072; never lowered the prices.

I had 680 before you even accuse me of being fanboy, which was destroyed in Crysis with mods from my 100% cheaper oc 7950, great Nvidia!

P.S. Dont let me even start about GTX280 :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
bottom line here kiddo's
nether AMD nor nVidia are your friend
and nether one is doing any favors

AMD has an angle in Mantle imo that is to lock nVidia out of game completely
that as the only end game that makes sense
they have next no GPU engineering staff left
AMD knows it cant compete in the R&D wars with nVidia
only way to keep in the game is bring the console war to PC
 
There's really no use debating this until we have hard numbers for Mantle.

Mantle could end up as a way for them to save on R&D costs -- produce less powerful GPUs relative to Nvidia going forward, but make up for it with the low level API. If that happens things won't change much, NV will be the go-to for raw power at a high price and AMD price/performance.
 
Good god, speaking to you tools is like talking to a woman on her period. Buy what suits your needs at that time. Both sides have their downsides and upsides, neither is perfect. Get over it.

BTW, since when was the 7970 supposed to compete with the 580? It wasnt. 7970 competed with the 680 (which was late to the party). Back then, AMD gouged on the pricing and eventually dropped. Just like NV did this go around.

Nothing to see here, move on. Both companies are guilty.

bottom line here kiddo's
nether AMD nor nVidia are your friend
and nether one is doing any favors

AMD has an angle in Mantle imo that is to lock nVidia out of game completely
that as the only end game that makes sense
they have next no GPU engineering staff left
AMD knows it cant compete in the R&D wars with nVidia
only way to keep in the game is bring the console war to PC

Amen! Would be nice to have a "No Entitled Little Bitches Allowed" video card forum.
 
AMD has around 1/3 of the GPU gaming market at best

No game developer would code for the smallest market share. Unless AMD paid them to and AMD is borderline bankrupt.

NVIDIA and Intel have the greastest marketshare and it's pretty much always been that way.

Mantle is a marketing keyword that AMD is pushing right now. Although the hype died quickly when it was found out that neither console would support it.
 
Mantle is a gamble for AMD
if it doesnt pay off they could be trouble
if it does pay off im not sure i like the way things will be headed
nVidia will surely try to make some thing of there own and if AMD doest try to lock out NV you bet NV wouldnt think twice about trying to lock out AMD from a game or 2
 
Lol.. this thread.
Who the hell is the OP anyways? New account, joins the forum swinging flamebait around. Smells like shill.
 
That 'ass raping' is coming to an abrupt end based on the 290 and 290x alone. If APU13 shows wide developer support and the Mantle demonstrations show game changing performance gains, the ass raping is falling off a cliff. Not only will Nvidia's sales plummet, but the sales they do have will see slashed profit margins. Mantle's performance gains directly correlate to Nvidia's profit margins diminishing. Nvidia's GPU fortunes can turn on a dime. And probably will.

Tomorrow the 780ti comes out and people will forget about the 290. Such is life in the tech world.
 
Tomorrow the 780ti comes out and people will forget about the 290. Such is life in the tech world.

the other thing is Maxwell looks to be doing the same things Mantel does with out needing extra software
ie Maxwell should seem nearly the same gains in ALL games more so in older DX9 games even

AMD may know more about Maxwell then we do lol

AMD may NEED mantel to get any where near what Maxwell could potentially do
 
Such a question could only apply to a brutally honest hard core gaming site like HardOCP.

IF a threshold is reached in Mantle developer support, Mantle performance gains and AMD high end GPU cost/performance.

The GPU question is answered, the 290 and 290x brought the sledgehammer down on Nvidia's mature cards at introduction with substantial driver and aftermarket performance gains to come.

When I see - "with Battlefield 4 running with Mantle the card (290x) will be able to 'ridicule' the Titan in terms of performance" (AMD exec) and " which lets us see dramatic increases in performance on Mantle-enabled systems" (Oxide site) - I'm thinking Mantle gains are going to be on the kick ass side of the meter.

We know EA./Dice are big on Mantle - "Super exited about Mantle!" (GPU13 slide and yes their emphasis) and Eidos Montreal, Oxide and Star Citizen just came out as Mantle users, Eidos Montreal is owned my Square Enix, so they would appear to be on board, Star Citizen uses Cry Engine 4 so Crytek appears to be on board, though that was expected, and Oxide is building what they consider the definitive real time strategy engine for next gen games. Activision's principal technical director tweeted "We'll have to support #Mantle now; wish it was just #OpenGL extensions though! Maybe someone will lightly wrap D3D or GL around it for us?" so looks like they're on board.

EA/Dice, Square Enix, Crytek, Oxide, Activision ... already formidable and more can be expected at APU13. The question is what AAA developer can competitively afford to ignore Mantle if it enjoys wide developer support and brings game changing performance gains to the table?

Back to HardOCP.

The 290 cards are new and running shitty coolers. What will HardOCP's Battlefield Mantle review look like with an aftermarket cooler, driver optimizations and Mantle? A cost/performance delta of 30%, 40%? Recommending an Nvidia card for BF4 would be out of the question. Extrapolate that out six months when several more developers are on board with Mantle, Nvidia would have to sell their boards at a loss to stay in the cost/performance ballpark on mantle games and AMD has at least parity on non Mantle games.

I would contend if the developer support is substantial and growing (probable) and Mantle brings game changing performance gains (probable) there will come a time when HardOCP will say they can no longer, in good faith, recommend Nvidia boards.

Please address the POINTS of my OP instead of attacking me. I'm more than happy to debate the points.

Not attacking you, but spigzone is that you with another account?

Lol.. this thread.
Who the hell is the OP anyways? New account, joins the forum swinging flamebait around. Smells like shill.

Yeah...to me the writing seemed eerily similar to a troll that showed up in Gen Gaming a while back. What do you think?
 
the other thing is Maxwell looks to be doing the same things Mantel does with out needing extra software
ie Maxwell should seem nearly the same gains in ALL games more so in older DX9 games even

AMD may know more about Maxwell then we do lol

AMD may NEED mantel to get any where near what Maxwell could potentially do

Yeah I heard about the hardware\driver thing in Maxwell. If that's true every game will be close to the metal.
 
Serious question... is the OP the guy who's been banned here a few times already? He sounds like that guy who used to go on and on about how NVIDIA was doomed because AMD won the consoles.


edit: I see that question's been answered. Thanks Neb.
 
Serious question... is the OP the guy who's been banned here a few times already? He sounds like that guy who used to go on and on about how NVIDIA was doomed because AMD won the consoles.


edit: I see that question's been answered. Thanks Neb.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1735214
Neb pointed this out a few posts up. Its 100% the same guy. Same vocab, same sentence structure... its the same guy.
 
Serious question... is the OP the guy who's been banned here a few times already? He sounds like that guy who used to go on and on about how NVIDIA was doomed because AMD won the consoles.


edit: I see that question's been answered. Thanks Neb.

Yeah, he was the guy that kept going on and on that Nvidia was doomed, Xbox One was going to own all because of Kinect2 (lol), and Nintendo would be bankrupt by now (not doing too well yes...bankrupt and out of business no). His trolling was so annoying that his post came immediately to mind once I read this thread, heh.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top