http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3RF0zgYFFNk
Sorry if this has been posted already.
Sorry if this has been posted already.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
John Carmack and Tim Sweeny discussing Mantle
- Thread starter ronso
- Start date
Yakk
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2010
- Messages
- 5,810
No disrespect, but those are probably not the best two people who should be listened to concerning Mantle. Their performance at the nvidia show speaks for itself.
Doubtful, because what they saying are can very well be used against them if they weren't being honest.
This was actually a very honest and open discussion, considering it was an nVidia event.
i agree, it was surprisingly open.
However, if a majority of new EA games are going to have it due to frostbite, its only going to be a matter of time before ID and Unreal reluctantly implement it in order to compete with EA on a more level field.
Activion has already tweeted something along these lines: "Crap, i guess we have to support this"
However, if a majority of new EA games are going to have it due to frostbite, its only going to be a matter of time before ID and Unreal reluctantly implement it in order to compete with EA on a more level field.
Activion has already tweeted something along these lines: "Crap, i guess we have to support this"
KazeoHin
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2011
- Messages
- 9,003
Unreal engine has a big "the way it's meant to be played" animation on start-up and supports Nvidia PhysX natively.
You do the math.
You do the math.
yea, Nvidia payed.
Not all EA games are necessarily going to use the DICE engine. We saw many games from EA use the Unreal engine. All the big publishers have the licenses to Unreal. Its the biggest and most popular engine. Even Square used it for some of their games yet they also developed their own.
That developer from Activision also said he wished it was just extensions for OpenGL and not a new API.
And you think AMD doesn't pay for their logo to be on the front of games? Gimme a break!
i said a majority (sports, and sims have their own engines)
we know of 13 so far, and more to come next month.
of course amd pays, they all do. You think dice is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts?
as much as Nvidia sponsors unreal games, there will be a massive amount of pressure on them to implement it.
Weather they do or not, time will tell, but imho, its only a matter of time.
This is assuming it gains traction to begin with.
Well, he said he liked the idea of it, but not if it opens up the scenario where you have a bunch of competing API's for all kinds of different hardware. Johan reaffirms it would not be good should Intel / NV decided to combat it in that manner.
Maybe NV might just push their bindless GL extensions, so instead of the yesteryear where we wound up with DX9 / DX11 versions we'll end up with Mantle / OGL paths on PC. AMD will also supposedly release OGL extensions, maybe DX will have some kind of response in future versions... Either way, things are being shaken up a bit, and that's IMO a good thing
And who is it that you think will pressure Epic into adapting Mantle? They are an independent company. Unless big management changes, you heard it straight from the engine creator he doesn't think Mantle is a good idea. He thinks the idea of making development easier and streamlined is, but not by creating another API.
Which is what is probably going to happen. Which is why he said he doesn't like it, its yet again another API. Obviously he is all for making development easier, but he obviously thinks Mantle conflicts with that too. When he asked the DICE guy about how much time and cost they put into using Mantle he pulled a NDA like wall up against Sweeney and said he doesn't know.
Last edited:
Competing games engines fighting for licensing income.
EA doesnt license their engines out, so it will have to come from some other quarter.
That's the way it should be IMHO. It's just hardware, good grief.
Even if someone is an NV fan, they should appreciate the fact that NV now has the holiday bundle of 3 games + a new SKU which were direct responses to the 290X. In my mind, that means that NV is taking the 290X seriously. And of course if you're an AMD fan, you have new hardware on the way. I don't see the need for the endless stupid arguments. ::shrug::
I think the 290X will be great if the cost is lower than the GTX 780. Let's say 550-600$. If that happens I would consider it a good GPU since it is more or less trading with the Titan at a significantly lower cost. Of course, people that consume gallons of green kool aid will never see it that way but whatever - this is benefiting everyone regardless of whether they're an AMD or NV fan. I don't see why people want to argue over Mantle, performance, physx, blah blah blah it's so dumb. Pretty confusing to me.
thebufenator
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,383
I thought the big thing about Mantle was the fact that using Mantle they can develop for both major consoles as well as AMD based PC's at the same time.
Both Sony and MS have their own direct to metal APIs, they won't be using Mantle. That said, it doesn't really matter at all because AMD's strategy is simply getting Mantle into several multi platform game engines. Once you realize that the same 3-4 game engines power 95% of games on both consoles and PCs, you could see how this strategy could pay off - nearly all of EA's games in 2014 will be using Frostbite 3, that includes Dragon Age Inquisition.
Maybe it can lower costs or perhaps not, the consoles are doing their thing and PCs are doing their thing. Like I said though - it doesn't matter since All AMD has to do is GET mantle into multiplatform engines such as Cry Engine 3 and stuff along those lines. If that happens, they can get broad adoption over a wide range of titles. Frostbite 3 will have Mantle baked in and that means a TON of EA titles in 2014 will have access to Mantle. EA consolidated earlier this year and they mentioned that most of their new titles will be using frostbite 3 - including Dragon Age 3, a new star wars title, among others. They will all have Mantle access.
So, we'll see I guess. I think it will take AMD a lot of time to develop an appreciable library of Mantle titles in any case, therefore I won't weigh Mantle in any purchase decision. It will take a long time to develop a library for it. But, seeing as 290X trades with Titan anyway in DX11, it will do just fine on existing APIs anyway, so....
Maybe it can lower costs or perhaps not, the consoles are doing their thing and PCs are doing their thing. Like I said though - it doesn't matter since All AMD has to do is GET mantle into multiplatform engines such as Cry Engine 3 and stuff along those lines. If that happens, they can get broad adoption over a wide range of titles. Frostbite 3 will have Mantle baked in and that means a TON of EA titles in 2014 will have access to Mantle. EA consolidated earlier this year and they mentioned that most of their new titles will be using frostbite 3 - including Dragon Age 3, a new star wars title, among others. They will all have Mantle access.
So, we'll see I guess. I think it will take AMD a lot of time to develop an appreciable library of Mantle titles in any case, therefore I won't weigh Mantle in any purchase decision. It will take a long time to develop a library for it. But, seeing as 290X trades with Titan anyway in DX11, it will do just fine on existing APIs anyway, so....
dont forget ME4.
Which i think will be interesting, as bioware has generally used Unreal in the past, which means epic will be loosing the licensing revenue on that one.
Im aslo curious how Bethesda is going to react with their usual choice of the asstastic Gamebyro engine..
Havoc also needs to jump on this too so we can have a real competitor to physx.
Which i think will be interesting, as bioware has generally used Unreal in the past, which means epic will be loosing the licensing revenue on that one.
Im aslo curious how Bethesda is going to react with their usual choice of the asstastic Gamebyro engine..
Havoc also needs to jump on this too so we can have a real competitor to physx.
Last edited:
Carmack isn't even making games right now. I loved iD software back in the quake days, but after Doom 3 and Rage, that love has completely disappeared. They were never about SP games. MP games and pushing technology is what made them famous - Quake being the first internet game with state of the art tech. Now they're doing neither tech nor MP. That game (rage) was an abomination with horrible graphics and textures from the Nintendo 64 on the PC. (the textures were awful up close). What a joke.
I really don't give two fucks about Carmack in the context of current PC gaming technology nowadays. In 1999? Absolutely. There was not a bigger iD software fanboy than myself in the late 90s. Not now, though - To be clear, Carmack is a genius programmer but that doesn't necessarily translate to compelling technology for the PC. And like I said, Carmack isn't even making games right now.
Sweeney? I dunno. He is in charge of UE4 and i'm sure AMD would like Mantle in UE4. UE is still the most often used multiplatform engine. So, certainly Sweeney has value to offer the PC world by pushing technology with UE4 - UE3 is getting VERY long in the tooth, though.
I really don't give two fucks about Carmack in the context of current PC gaming technology nowadays. In 1999? Absolutely. There was not a bigger iD software fanboy than myself in the late 90s. Not now, though - To be clear, Carmack is a genius programmer but that doesn't necessarily translate to compelling technology for the PC. And like I said, Carmack isn't even making games right now.
Sweeney? I dunno. He is in charge of UE4 and i'm sure AMD would like Mantle in UE4. UE is still the most often used multiplatform engine. So, certainly Sweeney has value to offer the PC world by pushing technology with UE4 - UE3 is getting VERY long in the tooth, though.
Last edited:
Yakk
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2010
- Messages
- 5,810
Out of all of them I'd say Sweeny with UE3 has the most to lose in regards to not using Mantle.
Especially after Johan Anderson shows how much of an advantage his Frostbite engine has at the APU Summit in terms of performance, other engine developers will probably be quite hard pressed to at least not match performance and features. Or else give EA a massive advantage for years to come.
At this point Carmack has not done much worthwhile in a long time.
Especially after Johan Anderson shows how much of an advantage his Frostbite engine has at the APU Summit in terms of performance, other engine developers will probably be quite hard pressed to at least not match performance and features. Or else give EA a massive advantage for years to come.
At this point Carmack has not done much worthwhile in a long time.
Just because Carmack hasn't programmed a game in years doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is talking about. He understands display systems, the needs for low input lag and high motion fidelity really well since he started working in the VR field.
No Mantle is to allow developers to work much closer to the hardware much like a console.
Brackle
Old Timer
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 8,567
I gave up listening to John Carmack when Rage was released and told the PC people to basically go screw themselves.
Lets not get to Mr Sweeney.
BUT I am all for lower imput lag with games. Problem is, those 2 care about the consoles more then the PC's nowadays.
I don't think that was his point. If they're taking nV money you can't say they aren't biased towards nV.
This is so not the case. ID as a studio isn't setup to handle licensing and support of technology like it once was, especially after they were bought out by Zenimax. The engine itself is by John's own admission not really in a state that it would be viable for licensing anyway since the tool they've developed aren't anywhere near the kind of pick up and play state that you get from Unreal or Cryengine, as such they never really developed the tech to be used outside of their own internal studios.
Any major company would love to get into the tech licensing game but it takes a fair amount of effort. Who wouldn't want a slice of that fat bank that Epic makes by licensing out Unreal to every damn studio on the planet.
I thought Bethesda was going to start using iD tech 5/6 engines in some games currently in development?
I've read comments before the iD engines aren't as easy to work with as Unreal but I've also heard they aren't bad either. I'm not a developer so I don't know any real details.
I've read comments before the iD engines aren't as easy to work with as Unreal but I've also heard they aren't bad either. I'm not a developer so I don't know any real details.
Nope, ID tech 5 is only used by developers owned by Zenimax.
Yeah they are pushing it in house, it's being used in the new Wolfenstein game for instance. Still it's a long way away from being some kind of marketable solution.
They don't plan to license it, it's staying in the realm of Bethesda published titles. They never even planned to license their other engines, for the initial requests they received, they just threw out some exorbitant amount and people bit anyway.
Yeah, that's gonna stop it.
How can you say "No", then say "Yes"? Bethesda Softworks is owned by Zenimax.
I literally said that like 3 posts above...