Debt-Ceiling Shutdown Will Close Some Gov’t Websites

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Stiletto said:
Kay. What does that have to do with the fact that universal health care would bankrupt this country? What does that have to do with the fact that future generations would have to deal with that financial crisis? You simply responded with an emotionally loaded statement.
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Please provide a citation that Universal Healthcare would bankrupt the country. The poor and elderly already get it. They are among the most expensive groups to insure.

Stiletto said:
Another nonsequitur. Obama pushed for Syria. Obama was in charge of Libya. Obama started drone wars in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia.

You speak in platitudes and fancies. Address the reality.
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I was addressing a platitude with a platitude. You speak in nonsense. Stop representing your nonsense as facts
 
Stiletto said:
Good. Maybe they'll learn some useful skills before they go off to college to rack up fifty grand in loans for a communications or psychology degree that will get them zero jobs.
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Accept lots of if not most employers require a bachelor's degree as a simple screening test to lessen the herd of applications. You don't have a degree, any degree, and your resume won't even get read.

That is how employers operate these days. We can debate if they should or shouldn't but that is the reality. To not have your application immediately binned, a college degree is all but required.
 
maverikv said:
Please provide a citation that Universal Healthcare would bankrupt the country. The poor and elderly already get it. They are among the most expensive groups to insure.
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Yep. And we're already looking at over $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities from them. Meanwhile, our debt limit is maxed and we're still spending at a completely unsustainable rate. In other words, bankruptcy is merely a matter of time. Every huge spending program we add on top of that shortens that time.

I was addressing a platitude with a platitude. You speak in nonsense. Stop representing your nonsense as facts
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Huh. Not a single word addressing the fact that Obama is responsible for starting or pushing for five different wars on his own. Almost like you don't want to address the inaccuracy of your statement about the "warmongering right".
 
Skripka said:
Accept lots of if not most employers require a bachelor's degree as a simple screening test to lessen the herd of applications. You don't have a degree, any degree, and your resume won't even get read.

That is how employers operate these days. We can debate if they should or shouldn't but that is the reality. To not have your application immediately binned, a college degree is all but required.
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Most employers require specific bachelor's degrees, like engineering, business admin, or natural sciences. A liberal arts or cultural studies degree won't get you anywhere. China understands this, not that I advocate their system of government.
 
Politicians in both parties are going to serve their real interests - making as much money as possible for themselves and their corporate sponsors which help them get elected. If anyone thinks our govt gives a rats ass about us, they are naïve.

Majority of House/senate are millionaires - do you really expect these people to look out for us? How deluded does this country have to be to tolerate a presidential candidate who made $27m/year and claimed he was in touch with everyday people?

At one point Obama may have actually wanted to do something good. That is long since gone, the man is nothing more than a shill and liar. His winning the Nobel peace prize for a bunch of speeches has got to be the biggest joke. And make no mistake, Bush was evil and basically started the path this country has gone down - trillions on wars, Patriot Act, illegal surveillance, funneling money to the rich. Those 8 years destroyed the country. But Obama is continuing that, often in more sneaky ways like drone attacks.

Ask any economist and the solution to the problems are trivial - slash the DoD budget, implement federal election reform, ban lobbies, shut down the many govt agencies that exist only to take money and do nothing, bring back finance reform and oversight etc.

You don't need to increase taxes and you don't need to spend more - where do you think all the money is going? To the pockets of a few. There's more than enough money to spend on society and fix the problems.

But half of these will be seen as 'unamerican' by idiots who believe mass media about the 'threat', the other half will never be implemented because those in power will never let it happen.
 
maverikv said:
So I'll take that as a no then
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Nope, I'm well aware of what it is. I just see no need in trying to discuss the matter with someone who refers to it as a "meaningless statistic", when that same person continues to dodge both the costs of the universal health care disaster he wants implemented, as well as the multiple wars pursued under the Obama Doctrine. That person clearly doesn't grasp that resources are finite, but that time will continue to accrue.

So I say "have a good day" to be nice.
 
Smashing Young Man said:
And the balkanization of the United States continues apace. The vitriol seen in this thread is repeated everywhere, and it grows worse by the day. I readily admit I contribute to it. I want to see the nation split, because it's beyond repair as a unified entity. One side force-feeding their ideology to the other won't work; people just get angrier and angrier.
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what if i dont want ether sides kool-aid?

the issue is the 2 party system and lack Congressional term limits

the Rs and Ds are both guilty
 
Stiletto said:
Nope, I'm well aware of what it is. I just see no need in trying to discuss the matter with someone who refers to it as a "meaningless statistic", when that same person continues to dodge both the costs of the universal health care disaster he wants implemented, as well as the multiple wars pursued under the Obama Doctrine. That person clearly doesn't grasp that resources are finite, but that time will continue to accrue.

So I say "have a good day" to be nice.
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Unfunded liabilities are meaningless. They are numbers projected so far out into the future that they are worthless, using assumptions about the growth in GDP, revenues and program costs that best suit whatever point the person is trying to make. Worthless scaremongering nonsense. So I can understand why someone of your knowledge and understanding would try to make a point using them.
 
MrCrispy said:
At one point Obama may have actually wanted to do something good. That is long since gone, the man is nothing more than a shill and liar. His winning the Nobel peace prize for a bunch of speeches has got to be the biggest joke.
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Finally. Objective, sensible criticism.

And make no mistake, Bush was evil...
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*facepalm*

Never mind.
 
And on the topic of healthcare, you know what would really fix the problem - if we started eating right. Americans have the worst diet in the world, the largest health care costs, and refuse to even acknowledge it. These things are not a coincidence.

Big Pharma, the govt and the medical industry have carefully built this situation on lies fed to the American public -

- saturated fat is evil, thus the low fat (and high sugar) craze in the US
- cholesterol causes heart disease, and thus statins which are some of the most harmful and useless drugs you could take
- billions spent on cancer treatment, when in the last 80 years there has been no improvement in survival rates
- zero dietary education. Over eating meat

Sometimes it almost seems Americans are proud of the fact that they hate vegetables. People want to keep eating crap (the SAD diet), get sick then get expensive treatment. Preventable obesity/diabetes (note not hereditary) and diet based lifestyle factors are to blame for most diseases and would cut our healthcare costs hugely.
 
maverikv said:
Unfunded liabilities are meaningless. They are numbers projected so far out into the future that they are worthless, using assumptions about the growth in GDP, revenues and program costs that best suit whatever point the person is trying to make. Worthless scaremongering nonsense. So I can understand why someone of your knowledge and understanding would try to make a point using them.
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And I'll bet you apply that exact same mindset to climate prediction models, don't you?
 
maverikv said:
Unfunded liabilities are meaningless. They are numbers projected so far out into the future that they are worthless, using assumptions about the growth in GDP, revenues and program costs that best suit whatever point the person is trying to make. Worthless scaremongering nonsense. So I can understand why someone of your knowledge and understanding would try to make a point using them.
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Right. Because investors never factor in long term risk.
 
Stiletto said:
Finally. Objective, sensible criticism.



*facepalm*

Never mind.
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You seem to think if someone likes A then they must dislike B and its impossible to criticize Obama without also criticizing Bush?

i.e. the typical nonsense 'you're with us or against us'
 
MrCrispy said:
And on the topic of healthcare, you know what would really fix the problem - if we started eating right. Americans have the worst diet in the world, the largest health care costs, and refuse to even acknowledge it. These things are not a coincidence.

Big Pharma, the govt and the medical industry have carefully built this situation on lies fed to the American public -

- saturated fat is evil, thus the low fat (and high sugar) craze in the US
- cholesterol causes heart disease, and thus statins which are some of the most harmful and useless drugs you could take
- billions spent on cancer treatment, when in the last 80 years there has been no improvement in survival rates
- zero dietary education. Over eating meat

Sometimes it almost seems Americans are proud of the fact that they hate vegetables. People want to keep eating crap (the SAD diet), get sick then get expensive treatment. Preventable obesity/diabetes (note not hereditary) and diet based lifestyle factors are to blame for most diseases and would cut our healthcare costs hugely.
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Some of that is certainly true.
 
MrCrispy said:
You seem to think if someone likes A then they must dislike B and its impossible to criticize Obama without also criticizing Bush?

i.e. the typical nonsense 'you're with us or against us'
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You didn't criticize Bush. You called him evil. Do you know the difference?
 
really this is why the US is in this mess all you people do is fight
VOTE BOTH SIDES OUT OF OFFICE
they are equally at fault

nether the Ds or Rs care about you they just want there money and easy jobs
i wonder how many people in Congress have ever really worked in there life id bet almost none
 
MrCrispy said:
And on the topic of healthcare, you know what would really fix the problem - if we started eating right. Americans have the worst diet in the world, the largest health care costs, and refuse to even acknowledge it. These things are not a coincidence.

Big Pharma, the govt and the medical industry have carefully built this situation on lies fed to the American public -

- saturated fat is evil, thus the low fat (and high sugar) craze in the US
- cholesterol causes heart disease, and thus statins which are some of the most harmful and useless drugs you could take
- billions spent on cancer treatment, when in the last 80 years there has been no improvement in survival rates
- zero dietary education. Over eating meat

Sometimes it almost seems Americans are proud of the fact that they hate vegetables. People want to keep eating crap (the SAD diet), get sick then get expensive treatment. Preventable obesity/diabetes (note not hereditary) and diet based lifestyle factors are to blame for most diseases and would cut our healthcare costs hugely.
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Except....I actually would fill them as being more coincidental.

Diet has little to do with actual medical costs, although ofc it does lessen likelihood of needing medical attention. A surgical drain (nothing more than a $0.02 plastic bag with a funnel) at a hospital costs $500-700USD. It doesn't matter if you eat right or don't, a hospital stay costs thousands of USD per day. Eating right will not change the fact that a hip replacement joint that costs $350 to design and make in Warsaw, Indiana will be billed to you for $15,000 just for the part.

My dad was in a cycling accident 2 weeks ago, man eats right and is healthier than I am. Needed $30,000 in medical care to fix him up so far. His diet or lack of said wouldn't have changed that.
 
Skripka said:
Except....I actually would fill them as being more coincidental.

Diet has little to do with actual medical costs, although ofc it does lessen likelihood of needing medical attention. A surgical drain (nothing more than a $0.02 plastic bag with a funnel) at a hospital costs $500-700USD. It doesn't matter if you eat right or don't, a hospital stay costs thousands of USD per day. Eating right will not change the fact that a hip replacement joint that costs $350 to design and make in Warsaw, Indiana will be billed to you for $15,000 just for the part.

My dad was in a cycling accident 2 weeks ago, man eats right and is healthier than I am. Needed $30,000 in medical care to fix him up so far. His diet or lack of said wouldn't have changed that.
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It has become insane. You can no longer pay for procedures out of pocket unless you have tens-to-hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting around in petty change.
 
maverikv said:
What the hell are you talking about? Climate prediction? Did you derp so hard you snapped something?
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No, you just have an inability to apply your own logic to multiple issues. A common problem for many people who rely on emotion to debate.
 
also congress cant come up with a budget but they can sure pass a bill to give them selves are raise pretty fast... and bipartisan too
doesnt any one find that odd?
congress should lead from the front and cut there pay to nothing untill i see that happen
all of congress is the same just whores is expensive suits
 
LeninGHOLA said:
It has become insane. You can no longer pay for procedures out of pocket unless you have tens-to-hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting around in petty change.
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At least it is a great time to be a medical device manufacturer, or a shareholder of said companies. With some of those stock dividends, you might someday be able to afford the usage of the products produced by those companies.
 
Stiletto said:
You didn't criticize Bush. You called him evil. Do you know the difference?
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I take that back then, I could also call Obama evil because of the many promises he has gone back on or conveniently forgotten, but I feel more of a sense of betrayal rather than in Bush's case.
 
MrCrispy said:
I take that back then, I could also call Obama evil because of the many promises he has gone back on or conveniently forgotten, but I feel more of a sense of betrayal rather than in Bush's case.
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I think calling either of them evil is silly, but then at least you're consistent. Fair enough. For what it's worth, I felt the same sense of betrayal with Bush.
 
Skripka said:
Except....I actually would fill them as being more coincidental.

Diet has little to do with actual medical costs, although ofc it does lessen likelihood of needing medical attention. A surgical drain (nothing more than a $0.02 plastic bag with a funnel) at a hospital costs $500-700USD. It doesn't matter if you eat right or don't, a hospital stay costs thousands of USD per day. Eating right will not change the fact that a hip replacement joint that costs $350 to design and make in Warsaw, Indiana will be billed to you for $15,000 just for the part.

My dad was in a cycling accident 2 weeks ago, man eats right and is healthier than I am. Needed $30,000 in medical care to fix him up so far. His diet or lack of said wouldn't have changed that.
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This is also very true. Its the whole insurance racket which lets them charge whatever they want because there is no universal health care so you must go via a private insurer.

In pretty much any country in the world, you get sick, you can walk into a private clinic, see a doctor for a minimal fee and get treatment. Not in the US. Because everything here must be managed health care which was designed to line the pockets of the insurance companies and medical industry.
 
Stiletto said:
I think calling either of them evil is silly, but then at least you're consistent. Fair enough. For what it's worth, I felt the same sense of betrayal with Bush.
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Also, although Obama did want to attack Syria it was based on opinion would've been a much smaller scale affair. Bush did start the war, after falsifying evidence of WMD's and outright lying, and that is what set the tone for the military mindset in the govt.
 
btw, the shutdown will affect lots of people, but lets not forget who continues to get paid - Congress!

Because rich politicians and their junkets are more imp than people who live on minimum wage and our veterans.

This is why the politicians don't really care about the consequences.
 
MrCrispy said:
Also, although Obama did want to attack Syria it was based on opinion would've been a much smaller scale affair. Bush did start the war, after falsifying evidence of WMD's and outright lying, and that is what set the tone for the military mindset in the govt.
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Pretty sure Syria was about chemical weapons and getting in on the side of Al Qaeda, but let's not get off topic. :D
 
Skripka said:
At least it is a great time to be a medical device manufacturer, or a shareholder of said companies. With some of those stock dividends, you might someday be able to afford the usage of the products produced by those companies.
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It's not the manufacturers that are making the big bucks, it's the insurance companies and distributors. Well, depending on the device. That $20,000 biotelemetry monitor the hopital paid doesn't go back to the manufacturer most of the time. The manufacturer likely sold it for $5,000.
 
Complaining about what caused us to bump into the debt ceiling is akin to spouses arguing about whose fault it is that the electricity has been turned off since they couldn't pay the bill. Our problem isn't about any particular program (although I'm not a fan of ObamaCare), this is about a gross overconsumption of resources. At some point, you have to let the lights go out and reconsider your priorities... in the dark. I say, let the lights go out.
 
Skripka said:
Or perhaps if wages were higher more people could afford insurance. Wages have been stagnant for 30 years, whereas medical care and costs associated with it have been growing faster than inflation for most of that time IIRC.

The taxes that "are too high" don't pay the bills we have. Is that because taxes are "too high", or because wages for most everyone have been stagnant? Or both?

Even if you had a full time job at minimum wage, you couldn't afford healthcare...even McDonald's admits this. Their "financial model" for success requires having 2 full time (or nearly full time) jobs at min wage to afford healthcare.
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So you claim that the fact that politicians spend more then is brought in with taxes shows taxes are to low?

So following that logic to you if someone makes $50k a year and buys a $5M estate they can't afford the problem isn't that they spent to much, it's that their boss pays them to little?

From 1980 and 2010, in constant 2005 dollars, taxes collected per year have increased by something like 160% (from just under $1.2T to just over $1.9T) meanwhile during that same time period spending has increased 226% (from $1.37T to $3.08T)

Those are numbers as stated by the Whitehouse's own Office of Management and Budget (look at the Whitehouse's website and go to OMB/budget/historicals for all the various charts)

It's even worse if you look at the forty years between 1970 and 2010 during which times, in constant 2005 dollars, taxes collected increased just a hair over 200% but spending increased by over $310%.


maverikv said:
Please provide a citation that Universal Healthcare would bankrupt the country. The poor and elderly already get it. They are among the most expensive groups to insure.



I was addressing a platitude with a platitude. You speak in nonsense. Stop representing your nonsense as facts
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And insuring all those people is doing a great job of bankrupting the US.

In 2012 defense and security-related international activities accounted for 19% of the budget, which came out to $689 billion. While this is far from a drop in the bucket and this spending needs to be cut back, starting with the discretionary spending and political pork that is hidden in the military budget.such as the Congressionally Directed Medical Research Programs which has direct billions of defense dolalrs into breast cancer, prostate cancer and other non-military related medical research. Or the 58 primary and secondary schools the DoD runs for 19,324 students in Alabama, Georgia, New York, North Carolina, South Carolina and Virginia at a cost of $51,000 per student (which between 2011 and 2015 is expected to climb to $81,000 per student due to a $1.2B rebuilding program) and then of course there are the "green energy" push that was forced on the Pentagon, such as the Army's "green vehicle convoys" whose sole purpose is to promote alternative fuels, which by the way these alternative fuels cost the DoD 4-12 times more then standard fuel.

On the otherhand Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program together accounted for 21 percent of the US Federal budget in 2012 which was $732 billion While Medicare itself accounted for between 1/2 and 2/3s of that total that but Medicaid and CHIP both require matching dollars from the states so the tax dollars spend on them are actually double what the Federal Government spends on them.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
It's not the manufacturers that are making the big bucks, it's the insurance companies and distributors. Well, depending on the device. That $20,000 biotelemetry monitor the hopital paid doesn't go back to the manufacturer most of the time. The manufacturer likely sold it for $5,000.
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And did the manufacturer actually spend anywhere near what the hospital paid to make that equipment?

It really depends.

Look at Warsaw, Indiana. The county that the town is in has 30% of its population employed by one of the 3 primary artificial joint makers in the USA who are headquartered there. All three of those companies rake in billions of dollars every year and bring them to Warsaw. And it shows. Warsaw has lots of nice golf courses let us just say.

When you make $380 artificial hips that you sell to hospitals at $4000-$5000 on average (actual figures BTW), you wind up with a very "healthy" corporate bottom line.
 
MrCrispy said:
Also, although Obama did want to attack Syria it was based on opinion would've been a much smaller scale affair. Bush did start the war, after falsifying evidence of WMD's and outright lying, and that is what set the tone for the military mindset in the govt.
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Bush didn't falsify evidence. He took what was given to him by US Intelligence which was verified by: England, France, Germany, Israel, and I believe Russia. It was signed off on by both parties in both houses. If you want to place blame then blame the intelligence communities.
 
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