The Desktop PC Needs A Makeover

Flogger23m said:
Small form factor tends to = loud and a pain to work in. Even my Corsair 550D does not have enough room at the top for me to quickly remove/install a CPU heatsink.

Noise is an important factor for me as well. Some laptops and small form factor PCs are screaming loud when put on load. I find that extremely annoying.
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For almost everyone not on [H], a computer is an appliance you never open. Even then, being "a pain to work in" only matters to enthusiasts what once every 6 months tops?

DrezKill said:
HAHAHAHA what a gawd dam fuckin' idiot. And for the record, my mid-tower is jam-packed. I got no fuckin' free space. Next PC build I gotta finally move up to a full-tower. I can't even fit in a graphics card that is longer than 9.5".
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Who is the idiot...the author of the op-ed...or you who seems not to have even read the article? Because to put it simply...his ideas are by and large on the money. I'm fairly certain for example you didn't read the part about standardizing LED and switch headers into one cable than separate wires, for example?
 
Skripka said:
You can get all the power you'll ever need from mainline desktop hardware like LGA1155 and a single GPU.
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Um... you don't determine what *I* need. Nor does a blogger. I'll determine that for myself. That's the whole f@!#ing POINT of owning a gaming PC is being able to customizing it to suit the individual.

There's already something on the market for people that like someone else determining their needs. It's called a console.
 
Flogger23m said:
Small form factor tends to = loud and a pain to work in. Even my Corsair 550D does not have enough room at the top for me to quickly remove/install a CPU heatsink.

Noise is an important factor for me as well. Some laptops and small form factor PCs are screaming loud when put on load. I find that extremely annoying.
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This is exactly why I went from a cramped midtower to a HAF-932 and have never looked back. That "empty space" inside a gaming is not empty. It's full of air, which anyone with any shred of computer knowledge knows is used to cool the internal parts. Water cooling is fine for the CPU if you really want to go that route, but you still have GPU, PSU, motherboard, and other peripheral components generating heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. For those like myself who don't want to water cool and prefer not to live inside a meat locker - I like a nice comfortable 28C ambient - having that space means you can mount very large fans that move a lot of air but turn slow and don't make a lot of noise. On my old processor, simply moving to a larger case dropped my CPU temperature on a Prime95 test by 16C.

Someone else said larger cases are primarily for cables? I have all my cables routed in the empty space on the right case side between the side panel and the drive bays precisely to avoid cable clutter in the primary air channel. This is also why modular power supplies exist - so unneeded cables are not present.

I also read in the comments that PCI-e needs to have power routed through the board. There's a reason engineers make these decisions and not consumers. Not every PCI-e x8 or x16 device draws 20 amps, so manufacturing every single PCI-e x8/x16 bus to that standard is a waste of material resources - you know, thicker metal is needed to handle more current - and puts undue strain on the PCB for having to carry that load. It's more logical for the <0.1% of users that have high-end graphics cards to just plug in an additional cable or two. You don't use one of those cards? Don't plug in the cables. You don't want unneeded cables cluttering the case? Buy a PSU without those cables or a modular PSU so you don't have to deal with it. Besides that, if people are talking about a mediocre rig that nobody's going to open anyway, what the hell are you bitching about PCI-e power cables for?

I wonder sometimes about some of the users on this board. This is supposed to be for enthusiasts that know how to assemble rigs in their sleep and push clock speeds and memory timings to the limit. I think less than half the people posting comments, and especially the ones defending this guy's article, have ever built their own system or even know the difference between an IRQ and IRC. Who am I kidding? I'm probably one of three individuals in this comments section that's ever touched a soldering iron. :rolleyes:
 
IMO the problem isn't going to be solved by mATX the problem is that in general cases for the average user are just way too wide. Most computers I make and tell others to make only have a single video card, now days they rarely have a sound card, or any other cards. If the video card could me mounted side ways parallel to the motherboard tons of space could be saved and you could still fit even the huge cards like GTX780s in fairly small cases that could lay flat under or behind the monitor. So if you built them with 2 or 3 PCI-E slots that were on the edges of the motherboard poiting up and down or so on you could make the motherboards much smaller, since you wouldn't need to put spacers in between slots and the whole case much smaller.
 
Oh and 1 U PSUs already exist you would just need to see more make it into consumer prices.
 
lilbabycat said:
WOW, Sure if a lot of shit talking here about TR. At least they don't source half their "news" from gawker. And lets just forget that whole frame pacing thing that TR developed/discovered.
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TR is a fantastic site. I go there every day for their news and reviews. That said, the blog post was still pretty off target for an enthusiast site, IMO. Yes, it's the guy's own opinion and that's fine, but when you want to try to push that as "I think this should be the standard", get on your asbestos suit. Honestly it seemed a bit more like trolling to me then a serious blog post. He should know, better then most, that enthusiasts don't have a "standard" for their systems. They like the freedom to build to their needs, or just desires.

For my part, I've been building computers since 1996 and I don't even like mini tower cases, let alone anything smaller. I like having plenty of room to work in and for expansion. I personally only use full tower cases now as they accommodate my needs best... ;)
 
I think that different market segments demand different solutions. Even mATX is overkill in many cases. A standard office PC - used for MS Office, web, RDP, etc - need not be much more than a Zotac Zbox.
 
Phoenix333 said:
I wonder sometimes about some of the users on this board. This is supposed to be for enthusiasts that know how to assemble rigs in their sleep and push clock speeds and memory timings to the limit. I think less than half the people posting comments, and especially the ones defending this guy's article, have ever built their own system or even know the difference between an IRQ and IRC. Who am I kidding? I'm probably one of three individuals in this comments section that's ever touched a soldering iron. :rolleyes:
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Wow, someone needs to get off their high horse. Not only are you completely wrong about your characterization of most users on this board, but you really do seem to misunderstand that "standard" doesnt mean the one and only option, or at least overemphasize the impact of what a new standard means. Leaving out the fact that Unknown-One posted a stunning example in this thread of something near the highest end spec-wise fitting into a mini-ITX case (way smaller than the micro-ATX proposed in the article), you seem to think being a computer enthusiast means you must embrace old ways of doing things and old standards. Once can be just as 1337 as you are, instead focusing on getting all that raw power in the smallest package possible, instead of having unlimited space like you prefer.

Moving our high end portion of the PC market a few steps closer to the general direction of the overall market helps us preserve the viability of our part of the market. If we go too far out of whack, eventually everything we do becomes boutique, even if they are standards based, and eventually companies will cease to give a damn about us. So circling back to the point you made, I too wonder about some users on this board... specifically users with their head in the sand.
 
Years ago I used build desktop for my relatives. These days, they just ask me a recommendation for a good laptop. A laptop suits most of the general users out there. If you are worried about the size of your casing, you're probably one who are better of using a laptop, functional and convenient.

I stick to desktop because I prefer larger display screen and a good speaker system, in addition to requiring additional hardware performance for gaming. If this is what you are looking for, then size isn't an issue.

Desktop doesn't need a makeover. The writer, and the targeted audience, simply need a laptop.
 
Hornet said:
Desktop doesn't need a makeover. The writer, and the targeted audience, simply need a laptop.
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You seem not to get it.

If you believe the doom/gloom about plummeting desktop PC marketshare-there's going to be a point where motherboard makers start to cease bothering with desktop motherboards apart from workstations...as people are flocking to laptops like you advise. Telling people to "get a laptop" is exactly what you should not be telling people, if you don't want this happening.

Which is why this guy comes out with his op-ed advising ways to overhaul it to try to make the Windows PC desktop popular again. Because sexy design sells more than ugly utility for consumers. Let's face it, enclosures like MacMini, and iMac are FAR more appealing to any lay person than the HAF or Antec 900-2 inspired boxes that make up 99% of the PC case market.

Now do you get it?
 
Steve said:
I'm not sure if the gang at the Tech Report is trolling everyone or they actually believe that mATX motherboards should be the new default for desktop motherboards. The rationale is that, because the author isn't a power user / enthusiast, the industry standard should be mATX motherboards, no optical drives, smaller PSUs and so on. :eek:
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My wife likes AIOs because she hates clutter, likes big screens, and doesn't want to open her PC, hence the standard should obviously be things like this... :rolleyes:
 
Skripka said:
You seem not to get it.

If you believe the doom/gloom about plummeting desktop PC marketshare-there's going to be a point where motherboard makers start to cease bothering with desktop motherboards apart from workstations...as people are flocking to laptops like you advise. Telling people to "get a laptop" is exactly what you should not be telling people, if you don't want this happening.

Which is why this guy comes out with his op-ed advising ways to overhaul it to try to make the Windows PC desktop popular again. Because sexy design sells more than ugly utility for consumers. Let's face it, enclosures like MacMini, and iMac are FAR more appealing to any lay person than the HAF or Antec 900-2 inspired boxes that make up 99% of the PC case market.

Now do you get it?
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No matter what's the size of the desktop form factor or how cool the casing looks, you will never be able to convince the general users to continue using desktop when a laptop perfectly suit their needs. Laptop will always be the choice for the general users who doesn't require the perks a desktop setup offers, due to its convince. No matter what's the size of a desktop's system unit, or its power supply rating, it's not mobile.

So IMO, it's pointless trying to overhaul PC, dropping some of its advantages, just to try an attract a crowd that you can never satisfy their desire for mobility anyway.
 
Hornet said:
No matter what's the size of the desktop form factor or how cool the casing looks, you will never be able to convince the general users to continue using desktop when a laptop perfectly suit their needs. Laptop will always be the choice for the general users who doesn't require the perks a desktop setup offers, due to its convince. No matter what's the size of a desktop's system unit, or its power supply rating, it's not mobile.

So IMO, it's pointless trying to overhaul PC, dropping some of its advantages, just to try an attract a crowd that you can never satisfy their desire for mobility anyway.
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If you read the op-ed...you're really not "dropping" that many "advantages" at all.

The (full) ATX format continues to be the normal form factor...because it was. Just like we in the USA continue to use the foot instead of the meter. We use it because we've used it for a while, not necessarily because it is at all better in any way.
 
Phoenix333 said:
Um... you don't determine what *I* need. Nor does a blogger. I'll determine that for myself. That's the whole f@!#ing POINT of owning a gaming PC is being able to customizing it to suit the individual.

There's already something on the market for people that like someone else determining their needs. It's called a console.
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Best thread post. Especially the bit about the consoles.
 
It'd never work. A lot of people in the US are in the mindset that bigger means better or faster. Wal-Mart has actually conducted market studies in which their customers were turned loose on two PCs with the smaller one performing measurably better, but their customers identified the one in the larger case as being faster and assuming it should have a higher price. PC gamers pretty much think the exact same way as Wal-Mart's customers most of the time.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
It'd never work. A lot of people in the US are in the mindset that bigger means better or faster. Wal-Mart has actually conducted market studies in which their customers were turned loose on two PCs with the smaller one performing measurably better, but their customers identified the one in the larger case as being faster and assuming it should have a higher price. PC gamers pretty much think the exact same way as Wal-Mart's customers most of the time.
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Yeah, seen that before. Always fun blowing people's minds with an uber PC in a tiny case. One of the reason Shuttle's were quite popular a few years ago (and are starting to be again) :D
 
They claim the future is cloud gaming so you won't need an uber PC because they provide the horsepower remotely.
 
Pleb said:
They claim the future is cloud gaming so you won't need an uber PC because they provide the horsepower remotely.
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So far that has been a pretty epic failure. Most games I've tried to play on OnLive are unplayable due to video compression artifacts and HORRID latency.

Go ahead, try playing DiRT2 on OnLive. The input delay is so bad you'll just swerve left and right forever because you can't help but over-correct (because you can't see what you're doing until 500+ ms later)
 
brucedeluxe169 said:
Wow, someone needs to get off their high horse....

<snip>

So circling back to the point you made, I too wonder about some users on this board... specifically users with their head in the sand.
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Put your own high horse in the stable before telling me to get off mine.
 
Pleb said:
They claim the future is cloud gaming so you won't need an uber PC because they provide the horsepower remotely.
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Yes because that is precisely what the op article never said nor implied.
 
I believe it is the true. Currently most of OEM computers are using mATX.

Getting ride of DVD drive is just matter of time as price of flash drive drops.
 
I rolled out a load of Lenovo Q180 boxes last year for small business. The size of a large paperback, 2GHz dual core atom, 4GB of ram, HD6450 GPU and a 128GB SSD in them. They slot behind the users monitor so you dont see them.

Worked a treat. Staff love em. No more big boxes.
 
daglesj said:
I rolled out a load of Lenovo Q180 boxes last year for small business. The size of a large paperback, 2GHz dual core atom, 4GB of ram, HD6450 GPU and a 128GB SSD in them. They slot behind the users monitor so you dont see them.

Worked a treat. Staff love em. No more big boxes.
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makes perfect sense: smaller boxes have smaller problems :p
 
brucedeluxe169 said:
haha, snip the part that dismantles your bitching and moaning

smart guy
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I snipped the part that was not the hypocritical statement that I took issue with. Right or wrong, nobody's allowed to be more arrogant than I am. Now go away or I will taunt you a second time.
 
My Grand Theft Auto IV game makes me keep the DVD in the computer at all times to play. If I didn't have an optical drive like this article is saying then I wouldn't be able to play videogames! Boo!
 
ZodaEX said:
My Grand Theft Auto IV game makes me keep the DVD in the computer at all times to play. If I didn't have an optical drive like this article is saying then I wouldn't be able to play videogames! Boo!
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Maybe the author would be willing to trade you a Steam copy of GTA4 for your optical drive, so he can ram his point in to you. :p
 
Flyboat said:
I believe it is the true. Currently most of OEM computers are using mATX.

Getting ride of DVD drive is just matter of time as price of flash drive drops.
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I got some HP full size desktop machines delivered a few weeks ago that had m-ITX boards in them. The power supply was a laptop one!

Lot of fresh air in that box.
 
When I can everything on my phone that I can on my desktop PC , then I'll happily declare it dead. But since that's about 20 years away , I don't even bother to read these articles. Productivity will keep the desktop PC alive for a LONG time to come.

Windows surface tabs where suppose to be the great new age of do it all "touch pads" and how well are they doing?

I will admit though that once the technology catches up quickly enough to keep pace with the desktop market then we can worry about it. But I just can't see anything short of a true evolution in PC usage changing over hundreds of millions if not billions of happy , everyday PC users.
 
rflcptr said:
I've never concurrently put all those expansion slots to use with an ATX board, much less with my mATX.
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Well, if you ever planned on three GPU's you need six slot space in the case. I have two GPUs and a sound card, and the sound card is not blocking the fan inlet of the GPU thanks to having enough room to space them out.

I also need the 5.25 bays for DVD/Blu-Ray and for my sound cards breakout box.

The author is off his rocker because he comes across as a knowitall who assumes everyone has the same needs when it comes to what a PC is. In short, he's being an idiot by even suggesting such. Would ahve been much better if he prefaced it with something like it was only his use that article applies to. He just needs to buy an imac and leave the rest of the PC world alone to do their own thing.
 
BBA said:
Well, if you ever planned on three GPU's you need six slot space in the case. I have two GPUs and a sound card, and the sound card is not blocking the fan inlet of the GPU thanks to having enough room to space them out.

I also need the 5.25 bays for DVD/Blu-Ray and for my sound cards breakout box.

The author is off his rocker because he comes across as a knowitall who assumes everyone has the same needs when it comes to what a PC is. In short, he's being an idiot by even suggesting such. Would ahve been much better if he prefaced it with something like it was only his use that article applies to. He just needs to buy an imac and leave the rest of the PC world alone to do their own thing.
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And would you hazzard a guess at the percentage of computer users in the world that run with 2 GPUs?

Then 3 or more?

Statistically insignificant I bet.
 
BBA said:
Well, if you ever planned on three GPU's you need six slot space in the case. I have two GPUs and a sound card, and the sound card is not blocking the fan inlet of the GPU thanks to having enough room to space them out.

I also need the 5.25 bays for DVD/Blu-Ray and for my sound cards breakout box.

The author is off his rocker because he comes across as a knowitall who assumes everyone has the same needs when it comes to what a PC is. In short, he's being an idiot by even suggesting such. Would ahve been much better if he prefaced it with something like it was only his use that article applies to. He just needs to buy an imac and leave the rest of the PC world alone to do their own thing.
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Did you even read the article?

Because he basically DID preface his article with exactly that phrase.
 
Skripka said:
Did you even read the article?

Because he basically DID preface his article with exactly that phrase.
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Yep, I did. He did not really preface it with anything other than 'my pc has too much...blah. Then he went right into ' I've been trying to picture what a modern desktop PC ought to look like'

My point is for his sake, he can go right to the Apple store for his answer, they already adopted his 6 suggestions.
 
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