NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

Necere said:
I saw a post today elsewhere calling the M1 "giant," and using as a comparison a Dell Inspiron 660s (referred to as "compact"). This inspired me to do a little size comparison between the two:

...

I can also understand that not everyone appreciates the desire or need to have a small case that isn't limited to low end hardware. There are plenty of people for whom a big tower case is perfectly fine for a gaming machine, or a small integrated PC for less demanding use. Most people probably fall into those categories. And the market reflects that; there are plenty of options if you just want a big tower, and nearly as many if you want something low power. What there aren't a lot of are small, high-performance enclosures. The motivation behind the design of the M1 is to offer another option to that underserved niche. It's not going to appeal to everyone, and that's fine.
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I highlighted the things I'm about to reference.

That Dell Inspiron can't fit watercooling, a mainstream or high-end GPU (max. low-profile GTX 650 or HD 7750), very limited storage options, f'ugly plastic. Is this supposed to even be able to cool an i5-4670K or i7-4770K ? Because I can't seem to figure out how it would with that puny cooler.

If anyone somehow decided to class these together, he or she is an idiot. Why not compare it to a Thin Client and complain it's many times bigger ? Necere, you shouldn't take any offense in it, which I think you won't, since this is just a bad comparison. If there is one small case that could stand to be compared, it's the Alienware X51 but that turns out to be a bigger challenge, along with the lack of a seperate case to buy.

So in your mission to deliver one of the smallest possible cases allowing high-end hardware to be installed, you succeeded flawlessly.
 
Necere said:
I can also understand that not everyone appreciates the desire or need to have a small case that isn't limited to low end hardware. There are plenty of people for whom a big tower case is perfectly fine for a gaming machine, or a small integrated PC for less demanding use. Most people probably fall into those categories. And the market reflects that; there are plenty of options if you just want a big tower, and nearly as many if you want something low power. What there aren't a lot of are small, high-performance enclosures. The motivation behind the design of the M1 is to offer another option to that underserved niche. It's not going to appeal to everyone, and that's fine.
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I agree. The NCASE M1 is a colossal behemoth compared to the Zotac Nano which fits in the palm of your hand, sips power, produces almost no heat, is silent 6 inches from your ear, includes choice of multicore 64-bit processors from Intel and AMD, internally expands to 8GB DDR3 1333Mhz RAM, 512 GB SSD or 2TB HDD via 2.5in 6Gb/s SATA III, and comes standard with Intel or Radeon HD graphics, DirectX 11, OpenGL 4.1, dual monitor support via HDMI and DisplayPort, 10/100/1000 Mbps wired ethernet, wireless n/g/b networking with external antenna, bluetooth 3.x, multiple USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports, eSATA port, 7 in 1 card reader, digital 8 channel audio, headphone and microphone jacks, and media remote control, all for between $200 and $300... and that's not even their extra small (XS) model. I have a Zotac Nano and it has been a great little web server, family machine, and Windows Media Center server. It is exceptionally small, cool, silent, and fully loaded. The problem with it is that it is not very CONFIGURABLE or very POWERFUL!

The goal of the M1 as I understand it is not to build the smallest PC. The Nano, Raspberry Pi, BeagleBoard, PandaBoard, and ODroid-X already exist, and don't forget the new Mac Pro. The 'smallest' certainly can't be achieved with a mini ITX motherboard or a 240mm water cooler. If you want a small mini ITX case then pick one of the nineteen models current for sale by Lian Li. Many of them are smaller than the M1, have a 5.25in drive bay, hot swap capabilities, can support large ATX power supplies, and are made with the same materials by the same manufacturer using the same techniques and equipment (and some even have handles, railroad tracks, and spider legs). Several models from Silverstone are also smaller than the M1 and have been available for years. The goal of the M1 is also not to provide the most powerful computer, since that too can't be achieved with a mini ITX motherboard, a SFX PSU, one or two PCIe slots, a single GPU, or a single 240mm water cooler.

The goal of the M1 as I understand it is to produce the most powerful, most versatile computer in the smallest reasonable space. If we can get significant power with a little more space, then we increase the size. If we can eliminate space without compromising power or versatility, then we reduce the size. The upper constraint on size is the size of competing designs from other manufacturers. If they do a better job, then there is no need for the M1. The lower constraint on size is the amount of power and versatility provided by competing designs. If a smaller computer can do the same job, then there is no need for the M1. This philosophy is obviously already in place since you have chosen to support the mini ITX form factor instead of the pico ITX form factor, the 3-slot design instead of the zero or 1 slot design, the 240+mm water cooling solution instead of air cooling or a 120mm AIO, and prefer the SFX PSU form factor over the ATX PSU form factor.

Bear with me as I harp again on case dimensions. As I said in my last two posts, it is my opinion that a 20mm increase in height (at the bottom) and a 1 to 3 mm increase in length, would significantly increase the power and versatility of the design. It would allow quad channel motherboards, 6 - 8 core CPUs, dual 240mm radiators, dual GPU cards, or up to 24TB of internal storage. Whereas shrinking it by 20mm in height or 1-3mm in length would do essentially nothing to approach the tiny form factors available today, or the existing cases already available by Lian Li or Silverstone. To go smaller you must eliminate the 240mm water cooling solution and long GPU cards, or significantly increase the case width since your only option is to rotate the SFX PSU 90 degrees. The width increase would increase the case volume more than increasing the height would. In the end even if you could shrink the design by 25% it would still be labeled a 'giant'.

The problem is that to have power today, we need space for expansion and cooling. The power and versatility provided by the relatively small increase in size far outweighs the perceived value in the size of the case. You have the potential to offer the smallest most versatile case to support water cooling for both mITX and mATX, the most airflow, and/or the most SSDs and HDDs. If the word 'giant' bothers you a little then stop competing on size alone. Make the point that power, versatility, and size are the primary factors in that order. Then the M1 becomes the only case of its size to support the largest variety of powerful configurations. That would be my goal (again for next time if there is one).
 
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Most of us will want at least a full-size single GPU in our system, and if you look up both Lian Li and SilverStone's offerings, most of them are larger than the M1, contrary to what you said.
Lian Li: those smaller than M1 only take the shortest graphics card and have comparatively poorer cooling system and their favorite PSU-over-motherboard placement.
SilverStone: SG05/06 are really close to the M1 in terms of size but would require modding to fit longer GPU cards as well as many other limitations. (Cooling, HDD, etc).
So Lian Li and Silverstone does not have anything to compete against the M1 in its class. SilverStone's cases that take the longest GPU are >=15L and Lian Li's cases that take the longest GPU are >=20L.
Whether a 20mm increase in height will really fit a mATX board, two GPU, 24TB of storage and a PSU capable of supporting those GPU, I can't comment on it because I don't design cases.
 
adamantium said:
Bare with me as I harp again on case dimensions. As I said in my last two posts, it is my opinion that a 20mm increase in height (at the bottom) and a 1 to 3 mm increase in length, would significantly increase the power and versatility of the design. It would allow quad channel motherboards, 6 - 8 core CPUs, dual 240mm radiators, dual GPU cards, or up to 24TB of internal storage.
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I think you still have some misconceptions about what is possible. To fit a microATX board and SFX power supply requires +7mm in length, at a bare minimum. You lose the ability to mount a 240mm radiator on the side if you do that, however. You also couldn't mount a radiator on the bottom with a mATX board and only a 20mm height increase (it runs into the PCIe slots).

If you want to run dual GPUs, the limiting factor would be the SFX power supply, so IMO it makes little sense to do mATX motherboard + SFX PSU.

There's also little room left for drives.

Basically, if you want to support mATX without severely restricting the capability of the form-factor, you need to make it considerably larger. And you don't need to ask me for that; you can already buy it. It's called the Silverstone SG09.
 
Or the SG10 which is less ugly, but relatively low quality and still ugly.

But since a single GTX Titan is fast enough for ANY game at 1920x1080 or even 2560x1440 at very high settings, the Ncase M1 is more than enough for most gamers.
 
Necere said:
I saw a post today elsewhere calling the M1 "giant," and using as a comparison a Dell Inspiron 660s (referred to as "compact").
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There will always be an endless supply of idiots, and some of them will remain idiots no matter what.

Those who cannot comprehend the point of the M1 are of no concern. They would never buy it anyway.
 
backfeed said:
There will always be an endless supply of idiots, and some of them will remain idiots no matter what.

Those who cannot comprehend the point of the M1 are of no concern. They would never buy it anyway.
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"I have an mATX cube case that is barely any bigger than this."
I'm interested in what mATX cube case he's referring to.
 
adamantium said:
The upper constraint on size is the size of competing designs from other manufacturers. If they do a better job, then there is no need for the M1. The lower constraint on size is the amount of power and versatility provided by competing designs. If a smaller computer can do the same job, then there is no need for the M1.
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No, the upper constraint on size is the maximum size necessary for the intended functionality of the case. The design is done, and for its intended functionality it is perfect.

There is a need for the M1, as not only is it functionally perfect, it is also (in my humble opinion of course) the best looking desktop PC case on the market, regardless of size. The Zotac Nano looks like an ugly toy in comparison. In fact that is the crux of it, and sort of adjacent to your point - there isn't a case similar to the M1 available, hence the existence of the M1.
 
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Ah the Anandtech forums. I like the Anandtech website very much but the visitors are such complete idiots, it baffles me how such a deep and technical website lures such seemingly clueless people with no technological insight or aptitude.
 
wreckem said:
I didnt check back at that thread and that forum is down right now. I guess hes still going on. I tried to explain but he just doesn't listen nor does he understand the point of this case.

And for him to compare an extremely low end PC that can only be outfitted with low end parts and has a 220watt power that costs $269 to a case that will be $200+ is just comically stupid. This is as you said a high performance case, that is smaller than alot of itx cases out there while being way more efficent/effective in the use of space inside the case all while allow tremendous options.
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yes, some people are just like that unfortunately. thats why i encouraged people not to even waste their time on him. plus i didn't want the topic to devolve into an argument, even though i agreed with your sentiments.
 
Concerning Swiftech H220 alternatives:

(Necere, please confirm these fit with the sizes mentioned below. I guess they will but you have the supreme insight on this)

Since the Swiftech H220, where this case was "built" around, isn't easily available everywhere in the world, I wanted to collect some information about a few alternatives. I'm guessing the Cooler Master and Corsair series are more easily found in Europe for example and I suspect Cooler Master is also easier to find in Asia but that's just a guess. So I compare these two 240mm CLC solutions to the Swiftech H220:

Swiftech H220 (link)

Radiator dimensions: 285 x 128 x 29 mm
Fan Airflow: 24 ~ 55 CFM
Fan Air Pressure: 0.5 ~ 2.3 mm H²O
Fan Noise: 16 ~ 33 dBA

Prices: 140-150€


Cooler Master Seidon 240M (link)

Radiator dimensions: 273 x 120 x 27 mm
Fan Airflow: 19 ~ 86 CFM
Fan Air Pressure: 0.3 ~ 4.1 mm H²O
Fan Noise: 19 ~ 40 dBA

Prices: 80-100€


Corsair Hydro H100i (link)

Radiator dimensions: 275 x 120 x 27 mm
Fan Airflow: max 77 CFM
Fan Air Pressure: max 4 mm H²O
Fan Noise: max 38 dBA

Prices: 95-105€


Anandtech did a nice writeup on the Seidon 240M not so long ago which also featured the results from the Swiftech and Corsair coolers: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6916/...nd-12-more-coolers-the-retest-and-megaroundup

I made it easier to read the graphs, but don't forget these graphs (excluding the noise one) are in °C above ambient.
CPU used: Intel Core i7-2700K overclocked to 4.4GHz @ 1.45V

Results:

fv6UrZq.png

We can conclude from this that the Swiftech H220 is the best-performing if low noise is important to you. Corsair's H100i is not far off. The CM Seidon 240M isn't in this list because it can't reach below 34dB with the standard fans and setup.

RmaTt3Y.png

This graph is sort of misguiding, because the Seidon is 5dB louder than the H220. This is an indication at what kind of performance you are looking at with the supplied fans and the lowest setting.

X3ekXQi.png

On the maximum performance settings we see tightly grouped results, with less than a single degree °C difference. But let's look at those noise figures:

Msc0TVA.png

Swiftech again pulls the "best performance to noise ratio", leaving the Corsair and CM about 9dB (about 3 times as "loud") at their max setting.

I'll not reinvent the wheel and just quote Anandtech's conclusion:
First, while the Swiftech H220 may be the best 240mm closed loop cooler available, it also commands a healthy premium over the competition. This leaves Corsair's H100i and the Cooler Master Seidon 240M competing against each other, and this one's really a no brainer in favor of Cooler Master. The Seidon 240M sometimes lists for cheaper than the H100i, and while you don't get the software functionality or extra fan headers of the H100i, the 240M is slightly more efficient overall, and its mounting system is head and shoulders above the H100i. If you're in the market for a 240mm cooler and the Swiftech is too rich for your blood, then you're going to want the Seidon 240M.
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Well yes, but I wasn't compiling all the CLC solutions into one post, just giving alternatives for Europeans who have a hard time finding the Swiftech locally. I can't actually find the Silverstone one anywhere in my area. Also, that Tundra TD02 has a very thick radiator, 16mm more than the Swiftech and I don't know if that will cause problems.
 
ekuest said:
you should do a render next to a bitfenix prodigy, a haf 932, and a 300D. :)
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That's a good idea. I'd wager that most of us have seen good scale comparisons on the Prodigy in particular.

Perhaps also compared to say, a Mac mini or an Intel NUC.
 
Any idea when the crowd funding campaign is up? Have the initial ambitions of shipping the case in august gone to shit yet? I considered getting the sg08 for a split second, but then once the m1 actually comes out in a couple decades I would feel like crap for not waiting. Even though all this waiting is very painful I still love you guys :p.
 
cookiePlant said:
Any idea when the crowd funding campaign is up? Have the initial ambitions of shipping the case in august gone to shit yet? I considered getting the sg08 for a split second, but then once the m1 actually comes out in a couple decades I would feel like crap for not waiting. Even though all this waiting is very painful I still love you guys :p.
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If it makes you feel better, I have been wanting to get a SFF case since Sep 2012.

9 month of work later, I haven't even got to play with the prototype yet. Necere just sends me some pictures now and then :(
 
Phuncz said:
Well yes, but I wasn't compiling all the CLC solutions into one post, just giving alternatives for Europeans who have a hard time finding the Swiftech locally. I can't actually find the Silverstone one anywhere in my area.
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i see. i didn't know where you were located :p

Also, that Tundra TD02 has a very thick radiator, 16mm more than the Swiftech and I don't know if that will cause problems.
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yep. thats why i mentioned it. was curious if "it would fit" :cool:

wahaha360 said:
9 month of work later, I haven't even got to play with the prototype yet. Necere just sends me some pictures now and then :(
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some things are worth waiting for :) i'm trying to decide on which color to get
 
wahaha360 said:
If it makes you feel better, I have been wanting to get a SFF case since Sep 2012.

9 month of work later, I haven't even got to play with the prototype yet. Necere just sends me some pictures now and then :(
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ROFL... W360, thank you for your patience and hard work organizing this with necere
 
Phuncz said:
Concerning Swiftech H220 alternatives:

(Necere, please confirm these fit with the sizes mentioned below. I guess they will but you have the supreme insight on this)
...
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I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. The H220 is larger than both (285mm long with the barbs), and fits fine. I tested the H60i - which is basically the 120mm version of the H100i - and that wasn't a problem.

illli said:
yep. thats why i mentioned it. was curious if "it would fit" :cool:
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There aren't any "hard" limits preventing the TD02 from fitting; it's more a matter of getting the tubing to cooperate. But it doesn't look impossible, anyway.
 
Hi,

Just asking, is there any option to order non-perforated side panel ? Same price is okay.:)
 
wreckem said:
I didnt check back at that thread and that forum is down right now. I guess hes still going on. I tried to explain but he just doesn't listen nor does he understand the point of this case.

And for him to compare an extremely low end PC that can only be outfitted with low end parts and has a 220watt power that costs $269 to a case that will be $200+ is just comically stupid. This is as you said a high performance case, that is smaller than alot of itx cases out there while being way more efficent/effective in the use of space inside the case all while allow tremendous options.

Most video card widths are 4.4-5.0". Having sub 4.0" width means PCIe extenders/risers/ribbon cables, he didn't get that point either. I guess somehow narrow width equals "compact" these days.

Theres also the issue of cost if you are going to do something that is narrower and still high performance. If I were to buy a Tiki that is similarly configured to what I am going to put in this case, it comes out to over $800 more. Just not worth it to shed ~2" of the width, while being taller and longer.
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Link to this other thread please? I would like to take a look.
 
jeez, I mean it's just way to big to be an ITX case... you can easily add like 7mm and make it matx... /sarcasm
 
Screes said:
I still cant believe the prodigy is so popular. I dont see the appeal at all.
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as a owner of such case, I can tell you this... Ignorance! I got this case day one, and I didn't take much notice of the case dimensions. All I knew was it's mITX, looks good, can be smaller without the handles, and can support simultaneous cpu and gpu watercooling (before the H220 was even rumored). So I claim ignorance.
 
Screes said:
I still cant believe the prodigy is so popular. I dont see the appeal at all.
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It looks like a Mac. Who doesn't want a Mac?
It's cheap.
You can get good temperatures without doing anything.
It has handles.
It looks like a Mac. Who doesn't want a Mac?
 
I know a few people that got the Prodigy for home servers.

Someone needs to make an ITX case that's geared towards the home server market. Just big enough to hold the mobo with stock cooling, full size HBA, ATX PSU and 8-16 3.5in HDDs.
 
Dephcon said:
I know a few people that got the Prodigy for home servers.

Someone needs to make an ITX case that's geared towards the home server market. Just big enough to hold the mobo with stock cooling, full size HBA, ATX PSU and 8-16 3.5in HDDs.
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There's really no need for saving that space for a home server though, not to mention that ITX boards have less sata ports and expansion slots. If anything, it's still for the purpose of decor and looks.
 
I have a Prodigy, and I love it. I love the horizontal mounting motherboard tray, and the huge array of options in it. It also looks great, and has lots of water cooling options.

I do wish they'd offer some kind of replacement for the handles if you wanted to remove them, though.
 
cowsgomoo said:
It's cheap.
You can get good temperatures without doing anything.
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This. I was able to keep mine below 30db at load with a Windforce 3x 670 and a 3770k. Plus the footprint is perfect on my desk hutch, but a sleeker black monolith NCASE M1 will be better. :D
 
Dephcon said:
I know a few people that got the Prodigy for home servers.

Someone needs to make an ITX case that's geared towards the home server market. Just big enough to hold the mobo with stock cooling, full size HBA, ATX PSU and 8-16 3.5in HDDs.
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Silverstone had an 8bay steel / alu front ITX case at Computex this year, DS380. Looked like a pretty cheap product, plastic hotswaps and unpainted interior.
 
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