Tesla Demos 90 Second Battery Swap

okashira said:
Lol. One of the biggest no shit moment of a long time. Not a solution for those trying to save money on gas? Lol. This is a special case scenario. Let me explain. These swap stations will be setup next to super chargers. You can use the charger to get a 100% charge for free in an hour. If you can't wait an hour .. Pay $60 for the swap. Comparing the swap to the cost of a tank of gas is big time apples to oranges. Swapping your batter is like a 1% situation even for the richest owners who don't want to wait. All other Charging is at home.
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THIS! Its not hard to understand. The point of Tesla's battery swapping tech, at least for now, is to keep your electric car going during extended trips. So you'd only use it a couple times a year, making the "value" immaterial. The only 98% of the time, you'll charge the battery at a normal charging station, costing you only a couple dollars vs the $60 every time in a ICE car.
 
pgaster said:
The reason for the fast swap is to eliminate or minimize charging time, not because the batteries have died and they need replaced.
Down time for charging is a major hurdle and one that Tesla is tackling head on which is a good thing.
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Not sure I agree. The Model S isn't a great road trip car. And they're not going to be until battery tech improves. For 95% of use cases a Model S has more than enough range. Trying to come up with solutions for the other 5% is pointless because no one in need of those use cases is going to buy a Tesla.

Also the fact that you need to come back for your old battery makes this idea a non-starter. This would be an interesting way to make electric cars quickly chargeable if not for that.
 
more of an apple to orange comparison.
do it at a Tesla station and compare
 
Spidey329 said:
CNG cars do exist. Most of Las Vegas taxi/bus's run on it. Makes for a hell of an explosion though (see that strip shootout/explosion a few months back).

We even have CNG pumping stations, to fill up.
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i live in vegas and i know the guy that owns that taxi company whos test cab exploded.


they are incredibly less common then you would think. that one that exploded was a test cab
 
I really don't see the point in electric cars to begin with. Until we start generating electricity with something other than fossil fuels EVs don't help the environment much if at all. At least in the US, the power grid is in terrible condition and close to capacity in many populated areas. Adding EVs would only make this situation considerably worse. Not to mention the amount of loss due to resistance of transmitting electricity to all the charging stations. This would most likely lead to dramatic increase in fossil fuel consumption as consumers replace their high gasoline demand with higher electricity demand. Something along the lines of hydrogen cars using hydrogen fuel pellets seems like a much better solution to me.
 
WtBadAss said:
I really don't see the point in electric cars to begin with. Until we start generating electricity with something other than fossil fuels EVs don't help the environment much if at all. At least in the US, the power grid is in terrible condition and close to capacity in many populated areas. Adding EVs would only make this situation considerably worse. Not to mention the amount of loss due to resistance of transmitting electricity to all the charging stations. This would most likely lead to dramatic increase in fossil fuel consumption as consumers replace their high gasoline demand with higher electricity demand. Something along the lines of hydrogen cars using hydrogen fuel pellets seems like a much better solution to me.
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Chicken and the Egg.

Demand begets Production.

Noones gonna build the plants until they are needed.

And lay off the grid load problem argument. It's old. And wrong. Charging is done at night 90% of the time.

And good job citing "all the losses of transmitting electricity." LOL this WHY we use electricity in the first place, because it is so easy and cheap and efficient to distribute.
You don't think there are any losses in distributing gasoline? I suppose driving an 18-wheeler interstate back and forth over and over again to distribute gasoline is better then a wire that lasts 50 years and is 95% efficient and requires little labor, other then maintnence/repairs?

I've worked in the power indistry (consulting) and oil & gas (currently) as an engineer and I have learned a few tihings.....
 
1. What happens when they start changing car body designs?

2. What happens when it takes your old battery which has a total Ah charge 15% less then a new batteries potential capacity, they charge it, and give it to the next guy who has a new car. That new car guy just got jipped 15% on the recharge.

3. What happens when like at gas stations start lining up with 16 cars at a time. And they service HUNDREDS of cars a day. Possibly over 1000 cars. (I known gas stations to do this) Are they telling me the battery stations can charge 1000 batteries and store them in 1 day.

4. No one has solved the infrastructure problem yet. If EVERYONE went electric tomorrow we would be all screwed, because the US power grid would be ~420% short of where it needs to be in additional capacity to make cars all electric.

5. Power plants are still mostly coal burning and NG burning. They aren't exactly clean technologies.
 
okashira said:
Chicken and the Egg.

Demand begets Production.

Noones gonna build the plants until they are needed.

And lay off the grid load problem argument. It's old. And wrong. Charging is done at night 90% of the time.
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Yep that 20 -> 60% drop in demand at night, where utilities take turbines/generators offline to service them is going to go a long way in tackling that 420% in additional capacity needed.:rolleyes:
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Except one little thing they are glossing over...

$50 to fuel up and I can do it myself and usually in a couple of minutes.

How much to have mechanics swap out entire battery packs? Minimum $200 I am betting, and that is likely lowballing so hard it isn't even funny.

Yea, I'll keep my gas car thanks.
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Someone didnt watch the video.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Yep that 20 -> 60% drop in demand at night, where utilities take turbines/generators offline to service them is going to go a long way in tackling that 420% in additional capacity needed.:rolleyes:
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I guess we will have to consult you for a solution for when 300,000,000 EV's go online in a single year. Oh wait.
 
okashira said:
I guess we will have to consult you for a solution for when 300,000,000 EV's go online in a single year. Oh wait.
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Yep the NIMBY's will LOVE all those new power plants! So will the green organizations...
 
WtBadAss said:
I really don't see the point in electric cars to begin with. Until we start generating electricity with something other than fossil fuels EVs don't help the environment much if at all. At least in the US, the power grid is in terrible condition and close to capacity in many populated areas. Adding EVs would only make this situation considerably worse. Not to mention the amount of loss due to resistance of transmitting electricity to all the charging stations. This would most likely lead to dramatic increase in fossil fuel consumption as consumers replace their high gasoline demand with higher electricity demand. Something along the lines of hydrogen cars using hydrogen fuel pellets seems like a much better solution to me.
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Actually, nothing you say here is correct.

--Electricity production, even with dirty coal plants, is still a lot cleaner than internal combustion engines.
--Some areas of the US power grid are close to capacity, but certainly not at night, when the majority of EV charging occurs
--Energy losses due to transmission are immaterial compared to the benefits of ditching IC engines. Still less green house gases and still cheaper to go full electric.
-- Hydrogen fuel pellets don't change the fact that we don't have the infrastructure to actually make it work. Electricity infrastructure is already largely in place.
 
Chas said:
Okay, the Tesla S gets 200-230 miles on a single charge in its base configuration. It gets about 300 with the upgraded battery.

The Audi A8 with the 24 gallon gas tank gets an AVERAGE of 21mpg (28mpg for highway). That means a fill-up for the A8 will net you 504-672 miles

Sure. You pay $100 for a tank of gas. In that same interval, you'll have to swap the pack TWICE. At a cost of $50-80 a pop. So you're getting approximately equal value.

And sure, it only takes 90 seconds to swap the pack out. But it takes a couple minutes to pull off the highway, arrange for the pack swap, have it done, and get back on the highway. With the gasoline vehicle, you have one long fill-up, then go on your merry way, not needing to stop in another 2-300 miles for another one. And, just on the off chance the Audi owner is hypermiling to hit that 600+ mark, once more... How much time do those stopovers eat up? A lot more than just 90-180 seconds...

I'm excited about electric cars. And I think they have great potential. But the battery efficiencies just aren't "there" yet. Which relegates them to "expensive toy" status.

There are currently 8 supercharger stations in the US.
There are another 16 supposed to come online by the end of summer 2013.
There are another 55 or so supposed to come online by the end of fall 2013.
There are another 29 or so supposed to come online by the end of winter 2013.

How many gas stations are there in the US?
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you forget that youll be able to charge from your home that covers any in town trips
most trips are less then 200 miles
the super charger network covers all of the US by the end of the year
sure youll have to do a bit more planing who cares when it its free to fill up
my i drove out to MD from MO a wile a go and we stopped about every 3 hours to 4 hours any way
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Except one little thing they are glossing over...

$50 to fuel up and I can do it myself and usually in a couple of minutes.

How much to have mechanics swap out entire battery packs? Minimum $200 I am betting, and that is likely lowballing so hard it isn't even funny.

Yea, I'll keep my gas car thanks.
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Didn't even watch the video :rolleyes:
 
Musk needs to invest in LFTR next after this
if we had clean safe nuclear power like you can get from Thorium based liquid salt based reactors
power would be nearly free and we would have far more then we could ever need
 
Trepidati0n said:
They said the same thing about gas cars when horses were the big thing. Most progress is held back by people w/ arguments that are self full-filling.
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Good. Focus on only part of my reply, and ignore the actual point in its entirety.
 
Chas said:
This argument is a VERY double-edged sword.
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how? they are making them as fast as there plant can turn them out and there is still a waiting list to get one
sound like Tesla is doing some thing no other automaker in the US is TURNING A PROFIT
 
the ONLY down side right now is price
and Tesla is working a car in line with the price of the Volt ~30k that just about any one can afford and they are working on new lease to own financing models so that just about any one with a job can own one
 
okashira said:
Lol. One of the biggest no shit moment of a long time. Not a solution for those trying to save money on gas? Lol. This is a special case scenario. Let me explain. These swap stations will be setup next to super chargers. You can use the charger to get a 100% charge for free in an hour. If you can't wait an hour .. Pay $60 for the swap. Comparing the swap to the cost of a tank of gas is big time apples to oranges. Swapping your batter is like a 1% situation even for the richest owners who don't want to wait. All other Charging is at home.
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The basic point is that the Tesla is good for a daily commuter car.

But for long-haul trips? It can wind up being more expensive than gasoline equivalents.
Starting from zero-charge/zero-gallons, comparing a Tesla to a ICE vehicle getting 40mpg with a 15-17 gallon tank? You essentially need THREE complete battery swaps (at $50-80 a pop) to achieve the same distance.

Heck, even with a gas guzzler like the 24-gallon tank Audi A8 that was used, getting 21-28 mpg, you're STILL looking at three battery swaps for the same distance.

$100 for a fill-up vs $150-$240 for battery swaps? Plus you have to work your way back along the identical route going home, and reswap the batteries?

And yes, you can change a battery pack in 90 seconds on stage with Elon Musk yakking at you. IRL, you're probably looking at a minimum of 10-15 minutes to arrange the swap, pay for the transaction, and then actually have it done.

In this case, the Tesla loses both in terms of economy and convenience.
 
The battery is >$12,000 and 900lb. If you handle it wrong, it can kill you like you were hit by lightning. It's not 12v or 120 amps. It's serious shit. 375 vdc and in peak safe discharge = 1000 amps.

If it overheats, nothing the fire dept owns can put out the fire. You let it burn.

That being said, Silent, instant power, everywhere. Zero lag of any kind. If you don't drive a lot of miles, you can solar charge it.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Except one little thing they are glossing over...

$50 to fuel up and I can do it myself and usually in a couple of minutes.

How much to have mechanics swap out entire battery packs? Minimum $200 I am betting, and that is likely lowballing so hard it isn't even funny.

Yea, I'll keep my gas car thanks.
Click to expand...

This won't take off until there is a standardized battery form factor that isn't tied to a brand. No one is going to build a infrastructure for that is tied into a single brand.

Industry standards take forever.
 
Chas said:
The basic point is that the Tesla is good for a daily commuter car.

But for long-haul trips? It can wind up being more expensive than gasoline equivalents.
Starting from zero-charge/zero-gallons, comparing a Tesla to a ICE vehicle getting 40mpg with a 15-17 gallon tank? You essentially need THREE complete battery swaps (at $50-80 a pop) to achieve the same distance.

Heck, even with a gas guzzler like the 24-gallon tank Audi A8 that was used, getting 21-28 mpg, you're STILL looking at three battery swaps for the same distance.

$100 for a fill-up vs $150-$240 for battery swaps? Plus you have to work your way back along the identical route going home, and reswap the batteries?

And yes, you can change a battery pack in 90 seconds on stage with Elon Musk yakking at you. IRL, you're probably looking at a minimum of 10-15 minutes to arrange the swap, pay for the transaction, and then actually have it done.

In this case, the Tesla loses both in terms of economy and convenience.
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no its its FAR cheap this is only if you cant wait the 1 hour to charge the car
again i drove from Springfield MO to Baltimore MD we stoped ~every 3-4 hours any way
and the super chargers are FREE

this is only if you need a full pack RIGHT NOW
 
nutzo said:
You People need to do a little research.

The reason for swapping batteries, is because it take too long to charge when you are on a long trip.
<snip>
Tesla is pricing it at the cost of 15 gallons of gas. You get a fully charges battery with a range of 250 miles. With gas at $4/gallon, the cost would be $60 for the swap.

They assume you will swap back to your original battery on the way back for another $60, otherwise you will be charged for the cost of the battery, prorated based on how old the battery is. So if you swap your 7 year old battery for a new one, you'll end up being billed $12K-$15K.
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And what if my destination is far enough that i'd have to do 2 swaps in one direction? The tesla is a nice looking car, and if you're never driving on a trip longer than a charge will take you, you're good, but for anything more than that, it's a non-starter, unless you're in an area where there's a lot of Tesla stations. That said, if you're in the market for a Mercedes to commute to/from work, this is a pretty nice alternative.

It's not something I'd buy, but 10 years ago, i wouldn't have considered a Hybrid. Now it's certainly an option. FYI, Natural Gas suffers from the same problem as Electric. Most places don't have enough filling stations. If they did, then from a price perspective, they'd probably be a better deal. I think NG is 1/2 gasoline and the conversion isn't that expensive.
 
Az Syndicate said:
So if I was a Tesla owner, should I be concerned why the batteries can be replaced that quickly? I thought the sales guy said I would never need to replace these things....
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well it's rechargeable battery so if you believed the sales guy was a mistake on your part.

as far as changing/replacing fully charged (your battery is not dead, just out of charge) battery goes it's not that hard in any models, however the reason tesla stands out with other competitor is that many have battery in the trunk/front which requires unbolting and carrying the battery out if replace same. while on tesla it's just unbolting and battery unhooks itself. it's like regular laptop battery (tesla) where releasing latch releases battery vs macbook battery (other cars) where you actually need to take out back cover if you want to replace the battery.
 
Chas said:
Okay, the Tesla S gets 200-230 miles on a single charge in its base configuration. It gets about 300 with the upgraded battery.

The Audi A8 with the 24 gallon gas tank gets an AVERAGE of 21mpg (28mpg for highway). That means a fill-up for the A8 will net you 504-672 miles

Sure. You pay $100 for a tank of gas. In that same interval, you'll have to swap the pack TWICE. At a cost of $50-80 a pop. So you're getting approximately equal value.

And sure, it only takes 90 seconds to swap the pack out. But it takes a couple minutes to pull off the highway, arrange for the pack swap, have it done, and get back on the highway. With the gasoline vehicle, you have one long fill-up, then go on your merry way, not needing to stop in another 2-300 miles for another one. And, just on the off chance the Audi owner is hypermiling to hit that 600+ mark, once more... How much time do those stopovers eat up? A lot more than just 90-180 seconds...

I'm excited about electric cars. And I think they have great potential. But the battery efficiencies just aren't "there" yet. Which relegates them to "expensive toy" status.

There are currently 8 supercharger stations in the US.
There are another 16 supposed to come online by the end of summer 2013.
There are another 55 or so supposed to come online by the end of fall 2013.
There are another 29 or so supposed to come online by the end of winter 2013.

How many gas stations are there in the US?
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cant you just charge the car up yourself to? I think this would be more for a long road trip or a very busy day and you just don't have time to charge where the $60 premium is worth it. Your not paying this every time as you can still charge it at home (right? im assuming so but I honestly don't know much about these cars lol).

I don't know about you but I don't put 200-300 miles on my car every day or even every week, hell even most road trips I make aren't over 250 miles. So charging every night kinda eliminates this argument as you cant just park your gas car in a drive way and have it magically fill up over night :D I know you pay for electricity and all but I would hope its still cheaper than gas.
 
That's awesome, what's funny is when I was a kid I always said we need to switch to an all electric standard for vehicles and to solve the range issue instead of gas stations they have battery stations. The batteries need to be standard across all makes and the process needs to be standard. The issue here is today everybody wants to patent everything, so such a standard will just never see the light of day as it will just be patented.
 
Even if ONLY urban drivers ALL switched to electric vehicles, our grid would collapse. There isn't enough electricity generation to support even 10% of all cars switching to electric.

We're talking about each driver with at least one car spending hours a day hooked up to multi-thousand watt chargers.

You think we have brownout problems in summer NOW with all the air conditioners?

Try that same day in a city with AC and everyone charging cars.

The INFRASTRUCTURE DOES NOT EXIST AND CAN NOT EXIST IN OUR LIFETIMES.

We'd have to put COAL plants EVERYWHERE. And the transmission lines we have in place couldn't handle that load. So we'd have to revamp all that... EVERYWHERE.

End result? Far worse quality of life for everyone compared to using the high efficiency gas engines we have now.

I'm all for electric cars, but we would have to have a real sci-fi energy revolution where we individually produce the electricity we need in our own homes or on a community level. The national grid will never make this dream a reality.

So enjoy the Tesla for what it is. An amazing demonstration of tech. But it has no near-future use.
 
nilepez said:
It looks like they put between 9 and 10 gallons in the tank.
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No, blow the video up a bit. You'll see they put in 23.221 gallons. And the final cost is $99.83 with a per-gallon price of $4.299 a gallon.

TeslaA8Fillup.png
 
Ragenrok said:
cant you just charge the car up yourself to? I think this would be more for a long road trip or a very busy day and you just don't have time to charge where the $60 premium is worth it. Your not paying this every time as you can still charge it at home (right? im assuming so but I honestly don't know much about these cars lol).

I don't know about you but I don't put 200-300 miles on my car every day or even every week, hell even most road trips I make aren't over 250 miles. So charging every night kinda eliminates this argument as you cant just park your gas car in a drive way and have it magically fill up over night :D I know you pay for electricity and all but I would hope its still cheaper than gas.
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It still speaks to the flexibility of the vehicle.

There are much more stringent caveats to usage of the Tesla vehicle than there are for a comparable ICE vehicle.

Great, it's a beautiful city commuter.
And it's a somewhat passable road-trip car (provided you have battery change or charge stations available).
For anyone doing frequent long-distance driving, this car really is NOT an economic option.
It's utility as a fleet vehicle would also be questionable at best.
 
Elios said:
no its its FAR cheap this is only if you cant wait the 1 hour to charge the car
again i drove from Springfield MO to Baltimore MD we stoped ~every 3-4 hours any way
and the super chargers are FREE

this is only if you need a full pack RIGHT NOW
Click to expand...

Remember.

1/2 hour charge gets you 1/2 full charge.
1 hour charge gets you ~75% charge.
Full charge takes 4 hours. Even at a super charger.

So you get another 2-1/2 hours of drive time.

But being at a full stop 1/3 of the time is just a no-go for long distance drivers.

Spin it however you want...
 
Chas said:
Remember.

1/2 hour charge gets you 1/2 full charge.
1 hour charge gets you ~75% charge.
Full charge takes 4 hours. Even at a super charger.

So you get another 2-1/2 hours of drive time.

But being at a full stop 1/3 of the time is just a no-go for long distance drivers.

Spin it however you want...
Click to expand...

no super charger 1h = 100%
try again
 
Advil said:
Even if ONLY urban drivers ALL switched to electric vehicles, our grid would collapse. There isn't enough electricity generation to support even 10% of all cars switching to electric.

We're talking about each driver with at least one car spending hours a day hooked up to multi-thousand watt chargers.

You think we have brownout problems in summer NOW with all the air conditioners?

Try that same day in a city with AC and everyone charging cars.

The INFRASTRUCTURE DOES NOT EXIST AND CAN NOT EXIST IN OUR LIFETIMES.

We'd have to put COAL plants EVERYWHERE. And the transmission lines we have in place couldn't handle that load. So we'd have to revamp all that... EVERYWHERE.

End result? Far worse quality of life for everyone compared to using the high efficiency gas engines we have now.

I'm all for electric cars, but we would have to have a real sci-fi energy revolution where we individually produce the electricity we need in our own homes or on a community level. The national grid will never make this dream a reality.

So enjoy the Tesla for what it is. An amazing demonstration of tech. But it has no near-future use.
Click to expand...

Didn't you read the post from the internet engineers that work in the electric transmission industry. They said the electric grid problem doesn't exist and it is an old tired argument despite the yearly rolling brownouts in CA mostly due to lack of power generation plants. And the reason they can't build plants is not a demand issue, it is an funding, pollution laws, and governmental regulation issue. Never mind the fact that the major cities where EVs would be most popular happen to be where the electric grid has the least amount of headroom in capacity. My original comment still stands, Alot of improvement needs to happen in cleaner, cheaper, efficient power generation before a wholesale switch to EV would be practical. Hydrogen pellet fueled cars could be filled at existing gas stations without requiring major overhauls and could be refueled just as fast without a $14k-$30k core charge hanging over your head for not returning the batteries.
 
Advil said:
The INFRASTRUCTURE DOES NOT EXIST AND CAN NOT EXIST IN OUR LIFETIMES.

We'd have to put COAL plants EVERYWHERE. And the transmission lines we have in place couldn't handle that load. So we'd have to revamp all that... EVERYWHERE.
Click to expand...
All new powerplants are Natural Gas which would burn cleaner than Coal or Gasoline.

And charging can be designed to happen overnight when the grid has a low demand. This would actually even out the demand through the day and power plants would pay off better since the equipment sized for peak demand otherwise sits half idle during the night. And if power companies make more money off the same equipment the cost of power generation should go down.
 
There's a lot of people making a lot of money off gasoline, especially for the past 10 years or so and so those people definitely don't want to see a change and spread a lot of BS to protect their situation. My personal preference would be a gas powered car, but until gasoline gets a technological competitor, we're going to continue to get ass raped at the pump.
 
A couple of my friends have the Tesla S. It is by far one of the most interesting cars I have driven. Yes, its expensive, but it also feels like an "expensive" car. Its very nice. Has some minor defects in fit and finish, but over all it does fit the bill of an expensive sedan.

If you start looking at all the costs and trying to niggle every dollar, its not going to work. Looking at motorized transportation, you are better off getting a moped for the total cost per mile. That is not the point of the Tesla. It is a luxury car with the associated cost.

The infrastructure is not in place for long range driving, but for my needs as a work car in town, its perfect. If your daily commute, single direction, is more than 200 miles, then this is not for you (yet).

And, it is wicked fast and mostly silent in the process. I mean wicked fast for a car of its weight and size.
 
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