PRISM: Here’s What You Need to Know

schizrade said:
The military is not loyal to this man or his cronies. The military is made up of average Americans.
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I beg to differ, half the point of boot camp is to deprogram you to follow your superior's orders regardless of what you think.
 
stiltner said:
I think its time to VPN / VPS
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VPN only protects your anonymity to a certain extend. If the government is really after you, a VPN company isn't going to stand in their way. HideMyAss sold out a hacker's ass after they were subpoenaed.

Granted the guy committed a crime by hacking Sony and other companies, but it just goes to show that these companies are on the government's side when it suits them.
 
WTF is the NSA's agenda with all this anyway? Is this all because of the war on piracy? This spying on own people thing is getting completely out of hand. I'm just glad I don't live in the states, but I'd also be ignorant to say I'm not affected, because most internet traffic passes through/to the states at one point given most servers are there.
 
As for VPN you are better off running your own VPN server off shore, and even then they can probably trace it back to you via billing and what not. Not to mention they'll see that all your data goes to a specific IP and they'll just order you to decrypt it or you go to jail.
 
Good to keep FISA in mind when companies deny their involvement in PRISM:

"Google, Microsoft and Twitter publish transparency reports detailing government requests for information, but these reports do not include FISA requests because they are not allowed to acknowledge them. "

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/t...-to-government-surveillance-efforts.html?_r=0



schizrade said:
The military is made up of average Americans.
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The officers typically come from another layer of society. Top officers belong to the elite and share in those circles, nothing average there.
 
And how did people not just assume this was already happening.

Before this was news, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being fact. I would of rated the certainty of this as an 8.
 
Hornet said:
VPN only protects your anonymity to a certain extend. If the government is really after you, a VPN company isn't going to stand in their way. HideMyAss sold out a hacker's ass after they were subpoenaed.

Granted the guy committed a crime by hacking Sony and other companies, but it just goes to show that these companies are on the government's side when it suits them.
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A good VPN has nothing to sell out as they don't keep logs.

SkullE said:
And how did people not just assume this was already happening.

Before this was news, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being fact. I would of rated the certainty of this as an 8.
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Yup.

Only thing I'm kind of surprised about is that it was The Guardian that broke the story rather than anyone in the USA. Then again considering the chicken-shit "journalists" who are obsessed with CGI and the youtwitfacescape than actual news...maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
 
Next is root access to any device connected to the net.
 
MasonD said:
Yet it's still crazy talk (crosses eyes and humps sister) to say our own gov have actually done false flag attacks on its own people to further increase their reign of power or to justify going to multiple wars (for profit).
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Only a fucking childlike fool trusts ANY government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

In response to a request for pretexts for military intervention by the Chief of Operations of the Cuba Project, Brig. Gen. Edward Lansdale, the document listed methods, and outlined plans, that the authors believed would garner public and international support for U.S. military intervention in Cuba. According to Jacob Hornberger:



The plan called for U.S. personnel to disguise themselves as agents of the Cuban government and to engage in terrorist attacks on the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay. It also called for terrorist attacks within the United States that would be conducted by pro-U.S. forces disguising themselves as Cuban agents.
One aspect of Operation Northwoods involved the proposed hijacking of an American passenger plane. The JCS proposed that a real plane containing American passengers would be hijacked by friendly forces disguised as Cuban agents. The plane would drop down off the radar screen and be replaced by a pilotless aircraft, which would crash, purportedly killing all the passengers. Under the plan, the real passenger plane would be secretly flown back to the United States.[12]
More specifically, the plan called for the following:

1.Since it would seem desirable to use legitimate provocation as the basis for U.S. military intervention in Cuba a cover and deception plan, to include requisite preliminary actions such as has been developed in response to Task 33 c, could be executed as an initial effort to provoke Cuban reactions. Harassment plus deceptive actions to convince the Cubans of imminent invasion would be emphasized. Our military posture throughout execution of the plan will allow a rapid change from exercise to intervention if Cuban response justifies.
2.A series of well coordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanamo to give genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces. a. Incidents to establish a credible attack (not in chronological order): 1.Start rumors (many). Use clandestine radio.
2.Land friendly Cubans in uniform "over-the-fence" to stage attack on base.
3.Capture Cuban (friendly) saboteurs inside the base.
4.Start riots near the base main gate (friendly Cubans).[13]
5.Blow up ammunition inside the base; start fires.
6.Burn aircraft on air base (sabotage).
7.Lob mortar shells from outside of base into base. Some damage to installations.
8.Capture assault teams approaching from the sea or vicinity of Guantanamo City.
9.Capture militia group which storms the base.
10.Sabotage ship in harbor; large fires—naphthalene.
11.Sink ship near harbor entrance. Conduct funerals for mock-victims (may be in lieu of (10)).
b. United States would respond by executing offensive operations to secure water and power supplies, destroying artillery and mortar emplacements which threaten the base.c. Commence large scale United States military operations.
3.A "Remember the Maine" incident could be arranged in several forms: a. We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba.b. We could blow up a drone (unmanned) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. We could arrange to cause such incident in the vicinity of Havana or Santiago as a spectacular result of Cuban attack from the air or sea, or both. The presence of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The nearness to Havana or Santiago would add credibility especially to those people that might have heard the blast or have seen the fire. The United States could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by U.S. fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.
4.We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington.[14]
The terror campaign could be pointed at refugees seeking haven in the United States. We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated). We could foster attempts on lives of Cuban refugees in the United States even to the extent of wounding in instances to be widely publicized. Exploding a few plastic bombs in carefully chosen spots, the arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents substantiating Cuban involvement, also would be helpful in projecting the idea of an irresponsible government.
5.A "Cuban-based, Castro-supported" filibuster could be simulated against a neighboring Caribbean nation (in the vein of the 14 June invasion of the Dominican Republic). We know that Castro is backing subversive efforts clandestinely against Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Guatemala, and Nicaragua at present and possible others. These efforts can be magnified and additional ones contrived for exposure. For example, advantage can be taken of the sensitivity of the Dominican Air Force to intrusions within their national air space. "Cuban" B-26 or C-46 type aircraft could make cane-burning raids at night. Soviet Bloc incendiaries could be found. This could be coupled with "Cuban" messages to the Communist underground in the Dominican Republic and "Cuban" shipments of arm which would be found, or intercepted, on the beach.
6.Use of MIG type aircraft by U.S. pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping and destruction of U.S. military drone aircraft by MIG type planes would be useful as complementary actions. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce such fact. The primary drawback to this suggestion appears to be the security risk inherent in obtaining or modifying an aircraft. However, reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from U.S. resources in about three months.[15]
7.Hijacking attempts against civil air and surface craft should appear to continue as harassing measures condoned by the government of Cuba. Concurrently, genuine defections of Cuban civil and military air and surface craft should be encouraged.
8.It is possible to create an incident which will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner en route from the United States to Jamaica, Guatemala, Panama, or Venezuela. The destination would be chosen only to cause the flight plan route to cross Cuba. The passengers could be a group of college students off on a holiday or any grouping of persons with a common interest to support chartering a non-scheduled flight. a. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be substituted for the actual civil aircraft and would be loaded with the selected passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone.b. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rendezvous south of Florida. From the rendezvous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly into an auxiliary field at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. The drone aircraft meanwhile will continue to fly the filed flight plan. When over Cuba the drone will begin transmitting on the international distress frequency a "MAY DAY" message stating he is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by destruction of the aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow ICAO radio[16] stations in the Western Hemisphere to tell the United States what has happened to the aircraft instead of the United States trying to "sell" the incident.
9.It is possible to create an incident which will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack. a. Approximately 4 or 5 F-101 aircraft will be dispatched in trail from Homestead AFB, Florida, to the vicinity of Cuba. Their mission will be to reverse course and simulate fakir aircraft for an air defense exercise in southern Florida. These aircraft would conduct variations of these flights at frequent Intervals. Crews would be briefed to remain at least 12 miles off the Cuban coast; however, they would be required to carry live ammunition in the event that hostile actions were taken by the Cuban MIGs.b. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly tail-end Charley at considerable interval between aircraft. While near the Cuban Island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. No other calls would be made. The pilot would then fly directly west at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who had performed the mission under an alias, would resume his proper identity and return to his normal place of business. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared.c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down, a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts, parachute, etc., at approximately 15 to 20 miles off the Cuban coast and depart. The pilots returning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found.[17]

James Bamford wrote on Northwoods:


Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.[18]
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http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf
 
Chunder said:
I hope the backlash against this continues to ramp up to the point where the government is forced to stop breaking the law, and stops violating constitutional rights. People need to realize what's going on, and heed the warnings our forefathers warned of, and why they wrote the Constitution as they did.

"Men will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants"

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
-Benjamin Franklin

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"

"The greatest calamity which could befall us would be submission to a government of unlimited powers"
-Thomas Jefferson

"If tyranny ever came to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"
-John Adams

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
-Abraham Lincoln
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Isn't this what the second amendment is for? You've been manipulated by the government to attack iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 (you've lost your pride). Your corporations have lobbied loopholes into your system to let them set up factories elsewhere (You've lost you jobs). The banks are being protected as they add conditionals that made mortgages overbearing (You've lost your homes homes). And then making bold faced lies as they massacre people for no reason (You've lost your integrity). And finally killing american citizens without due process.

Americans have been rabidly holding on to their guns and armories, while holding up the 2nd amendment. Incredibly high gun violence compared to other countries, 2nd amendment. Five year olds being given rifles, 2nd amendment. Military grade weapons, 2nd amendment. Precautionary measures to keep guns from falling into criminal hands, shot down because 2nd amendment allows even them to own guns.

Well, it's been like this for years now, when are you going to use your guns?
 
I'm sure that they'd agree that in all fairness, it should go both ways, and that we'll be able to spy on their every communication as well, right? :rolleyes:
 
Sly said:
Isn't this what the second amendment is for? You've been manipulated by the government to attack iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 (you've lost your pride). Your corporations have lobbied loopholes into your system to let them set up factories elsewhere (You've lost you jobs). The banks are being protected as they add conditionals that made mortgages overbearing (You've lost your homes homes). And then making bold faced lies as they massacre people for no reason (You've lost your integrity). And finally killing american citizens without due process.
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I hope you're being sarcastic. The reason our government is this way has nothing to do with guns, or even their lack of use. The government is this way because as a people we are this way. Like it or not they are a reflection of us.

The chances are great that the lying politician was a liar before you elected him or her. I would hope that at the minimum you or anyone else at least asked yourself,
"Could this man or woman standing in front me be a jackass, a liar, or a crook?" If not then you are just as guilty.

Here's a fun factoid:
Out of all of the senators within Congress only ONE senator voted against the Patriot Act (which condones spying on US citizens). That senator lost his seat in 2011.

The House of Representatives did a little better. But not much. Here's the break out.

Republican 211(Yeas) 3 (Nays) 5 (No-Vote)
Democratic 145(Yeas) 62(Nays) 4 (No-Vote)
Independent 1 (Yeas) 1(Nays)
TOTALS 357 (Yeas) 66(Nays) 9(No-Vote)

So when the bill passed did you call your Representative and complain? As the chart shows it doesn't matter what party you are affiliated with both voted for it. From what I remember there weren't too many people outraged. The only question posed was, "Do you support the troops?" That was it.

That chart above should be a good reminder that 90% of those people only care about one thing...themselves.
 
Benjamin Franklin: Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.

It's amazing how fucking right they were... even 200 + years go.
 
Sly said:
Isn't this what the second amendment is for? You've been manipulated by the government to attack iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11 (you've lost your pride). Your corporations have lobbied loopholes into your system to let them set up factories elsewhere (You've lost you jobs). The banks are being protected as they add conditionals that made mortgages overbearing (You've lost your homes homes). And then making bold faced lies as they massacre people for no reason (You've lost your integrity). And finally killing american citizens without due process.

Americans have been rabidly holding on to their guns and armories, while holding up the 2nd amendment. Incredibly high gun violence compared to other countries, 2nd amendment. Five year olds being given rifles, 2nd amendment. Military grade weapons, 2nd amendment. Precautionary measures to keep guns from falling into criminal hands, shot down because 2nd amendment allows even them to own guns.

Well, it's been like this for years now, when are you going to use your guns?
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The first duty of a citizen is to promote change in the political process using peaceful means. The overwhelmingly vast majority of firearms owners are peaceful and law abiding. For some reason, and all too often to the discredit of law abiding citizens, some people can only focus on the minority which causes all of the problems.
 
Lith1um said:
The first duty of a citizen is to promote change in the political process using peaceful means. The overwhelmingly vast majority of firearms owners are peaceful and law abiding. For some reason, and all too often to the discredit of law abiding citizens, some people can only focus on the minority which causes all of the problems.
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+1
Just cause people have them doesn't mean they want to use thmy just cause Sly. It is to protect ones self/family. For rationale folks shooting someone is the last resort.
 
kac77 said:
The government is this way because as a people we are this way. Like it or not they are a reflection of us.
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I disagree. I've even seen it shown that the most corrupted (manipulative) fucks gravitate towards positions of authority throughout history so how is that any kind of reflection of 'we the people' (not a question), it's not. Keeping majority of the population uniformed and out of the (real) loop helps their lifestyles (privatizing gains and socializing losses) and propaganda/disinformation is fucking rampant. I mean every single politician up to the President completely lies on the campaign trail (okay mostly) without any kind (none) of legal repercussion for doing so (I watch the President lie every time he speaks). I just don't/can't see how hard working people working some of the lowest paying jobs possible that are barely able to survive which means they can't even get off their hamster wheel even for just one week to protest are to blame. A one or two week (or month) protest won't do shit but show you what pepper spray tastes like and their household would be at risk from it...lol. It's just excuse making saying 'the people' are at fault for why nothing changes instead of accepting that the rich have plenty of reasons (Hundreds of Billions) to keep things status quo and the money to reaffirm it. The 99% are powerless 80-90% of the time. We just ignore the times almost nothing goes our way and keep tabs only when something very small and overall meaningless does go our way....so we must have some say in the process, no, we don't! So 'we the people' aren't to blame for at least 75% of it (being generous here) so it's definitely not any kind of accurate reflection IMO sir, nope. I've heard a few people make your claim before (some smart people too) and I just don't buy it. Normal People != Corporations/Billionaires/or those in other powerful positions.

You (we) get to vote for one of two of the same guys for President or red or blue when the color is irrelevant. People are too uninformed on what matters in this country and yet education sucks (sucked dry). It should be a crime!

No one in power has 100% represented 'the people' in a very long time (they can't, games rigged from the start) so IMO it's laughable to say they're anything like us, a reflection. Part of their job is to literally be a POS, if they're not, they won't make it anywhere. The ones that make it might as well be from a different place majority of the time. I understand exactly what you're saying, that people are inherently greedy with their own stuff, but the people in power (and those that usually seek power) are doing it for control or other peoples wealth too (campaign contributions, lobbying, networking, pork barrel spending, taxation, etc), huge difference IMO!


The chances are great that the lying politician was a liar before you elected him or her. I would hope that at the minimum you or anyone else at least asked yourself,
"Could this man or woman standing in front me be a jackass, a liar, or a crook?" If not then you are just as guilty.
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Most of the time we're only seeing a choice of two evils and have little choice in the matter in reality. A third or fourth party and a real debate about real topics might help. Plus, have you watched the documentaries on what it takes to even run for meaningful positions in this day? It takes the backing of the rich hence the loop continues. They got shit locked down. The fuckery is overwhelming. Blaming those wanting change instead of those wanting to keep things the same is crazy IMO.

Here's a fun factoid:
Out of all of the senators within Congress only ONE senator voted against the Patriot Act (which condones spying on US citizens). That senator lost his seat in 2011.
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This just makes me go tinfoil like there's more than meets the eye. Not allowing them to read almost any of a bill before its passed (the first time) is a huge red flag. They get threatened from the top from the looks IMPO and it sounds like the boss's of the country shook the fucking house until they got exactly what they wanted. More for them and less for everyone else.

So when the bill passed did you call your Representative and complain?
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In a properly functioning system it should've never gotten to this point to begin with (it's rigged damn it...lol.). The people feel hopeless (for valid reasons) because in reality the only way the people on top ever (pretend to) listen is when shit hits the fan. That's not how things should function but they do.

The only question posed was, "Do you support the troops?" That was it.
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Exactly, they do nothing but lie to the people. No respect.

That chart above should be a good reminder that 90% of those people only care about one thing...money.
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As long as things stay status quo like bare minimum education (and pay) this will only get worse. If I wait for change I'll grow old and die waiting. If I go take any time off work to protest I'll lose my job and the protest won't do shit. If I say it's time for a revolution I just became a (potential) terrorist and could (potentially) be executed without charge or trial.

"If I keep doing the same things I do now I'm accepting the permanent placement of the status quo = being a good citizen" - The elite.

my fake quote
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panhead said:
No expense is spared for government surveillance and security for government officials and buildings. There is always more taxpayer money for this, while the roads and bridges are falling apart, children are hungry and have teeth rotting in their mouths, etc.
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We have problems in this country, but hunger isn't one of them. Foodstamps and free school breakfast, lunch, and dinner (even during the summer) ensure that our fat, disgustingly obese kids are well provided for unless their parents wisely force them to diet. Though I guess you're right; once you get that fat you're pretty much hungry all the time.

Anyway, remember when Obama swore that he would never do all these things that he's now proceeding to do? Hope and change.
 
MasonD said:
I disagree.
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Dishonest, lying, self-serving, shitheads are everywhere. If you think they only exist in the government then really you just need to get out more. Seriously I've met my share of assholes just walking across the street, driving my car, or ordering a pizza. In particular liars in the workplace are more prevalent than mosquitoes or herpes. You don't need to go to Washington to experience the worst humanity has to offer.

MasonD said:
I mean every single politician up to the President completely lies on the campaign trail without any kind of legal repercussion for doing so I watch the President lie every time he speaks). I just don't/can't see how hard working people working some of the possible that are barely able to survive which means they can't even get off their hamster wheel even for just one week to protest are to blame.
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There's two reasons the first is that everyone likes to believe that their favorite party isn't a part of the larger discussion centered around corruption. The second reason has to do with survival. Protesting and putting everything you own on the line takes A LOT of courage. It takes more than what most people have to really risk your present and future for the country or for someone who has less than you have.

MasonD said:
It's just excuse making saying 'the people' are at fault for why nothing changes instead of accepting that the rich have plenty of reasons.
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It's actually a factual statement. If it's not people then who? Who is going to change it? It's not you. You are here talking to me. Likewise it's not me either. So it's neither of us. It's not an excuse. If we don't change it the Power Rangers aren't going to swoop in and fix our problems. Hell our Constitution starts with "We the People". It doesn't start with, "Bobby, Billy and Sue in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,"

MasonD said:
The 99% are powerless 80-90% of the time.
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Really given the history of our country how the hell could you say that? In reality this reaffirms what I have said. You've defeated yourself before even beginning.

MasonD said:
Most of the time we're only seeing a choice of two evils and have little choice in the matter in reality. A third or fourth party and a real debate about real topics might help.
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If 99% of the people are "powerless" as you put it how are they going to create a third or fourth political party?

MasonD said:
Blaming those wanting change instead of those wanting to keep things the same is crazy IMO.
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It's crazy at all. This is what the average US citizen will do on Monday after learning their government spies on everything they do.

NorthAmericaTraffic.jpg


This is what Turkey did because the government wanted to build a mall on a park.

130601092615-15-turkey-protests-0601-horizontal-gallery.jpg


I can't tell you what day that is because the protest has been going for over a week now.

Hell I'll go one step further. I will do what everyone else will do ....nothing. I am as much of the problem as everyone else.
 
Someone on Reddit made a good point:
We spend so much money and effort on national security and counter-terrorism, and spying on our OWN people than the terrorists themselves, that it's wasted effort that could have been better spent solving problems we have in our own country, in our own borders:
- Infrastructure (Bridges, roads, etc.)
- Education and costs of education
- Health care and veterans affairs
- Jobs

Yet, our government is willing to spend maybe $50 million (rough cost last I read) or more on PRISM to monitor the activities of nearly 300 million Americans who may not be terrorists at all.
 
kac77 said:
Dishonest, lying, self-serving, shitheads are everywhere.
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Yet they're not in control of others lives, humans are humans. However it takes a certain kind of (not normal) person to lie and manipulate and deceive globally and in front of the faces of a whole population of (somewhat) good/regular/trying/hurting people. Shepard's != sheep. Some lead while some follow. They're not the same thing though which is what I think* you're saying and I have to disagree there. Most if not all people seeking a position of power should automatically not have it. If the strong and able keep stomping on the weak nothing will ever change no matter what you or anyone else claim can be done. So either we in the USA say enough is enough and revolt (oops, now I'm a crazy (potential) terrorist) or this is it, everyone back to work! Well I don't want to be considered crazy so back to work and with that income to equality rises and freedom goes out the window while we all argue back and forth whether it's even happening. 10 years ago anyone in this thread in agreement was a tinfoiler. Right now anyone thinking ahead (revolt) is now a tinfoiler. Shit, I don't even want to revolt because I'll probably be the one that gets hit in the head with a tear gas canister and dies.

I can tell you one thing, I would last about one week as President of the USA before some lone gunman with no association to any other entity took me out because he didn't like my haircut. However since I can't raise a billion to run I don't have a say in the matter. I can also petition while I pick my nose and 80-90% of the time only one will bare results. Only a disobedient population gets heard (not small protests). I apologize, I don't see any other way working (still don't want to revolt). They just don't fucking care otherwise!

If you think they only exist in the government then really you just need to get out more. Seriously I've met my share of assholes just walking across the street, driving my car, or ordering a pizza. In particular liars in the workplace are more prevalent than mosquitoes or herpes. You don't need to go to Washington to experience the worst humanity has to offer.
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You do need to go to Washington to see the best of the best ones. These guys are career POS's. Not just people having bad days or lives. They're not ruining millions of lives in the process either. I get they're humans...lol.


Protesting and putting everything you own on the line takes A LOT of courage. It takes more than what most people have to really risk your present and future for the country or for someone who has less than you have.
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I agree and this is no accident IMO. People don't have the ability to do both and maintain both. I'm not becoming homeless just to get pepper sprayed in the face, that's for sure. I'd become what is easily considered an enemy of the state first.

It's actually a factual statement. If it's not people then who? Who is going to change it? It's not you. You are here talking to me. Likewise it's not me either. So it's neither of us. It's not an excuse. If we don't change it the Power Rangers aren't going to swoop in and fix our problems. Hell our Constitution starts with "We the People". It doesn't start with, "Bobby, Billy and Sue in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,"
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From what I understand the same men that wrote the constitution in that day are equivalent to today's currently elected officials/rich/influential, not poor (average people). Most were very well educated and very well off but needed a more stable environment to work with. They have that right now. The USA is the' best country for the wealthy. They got protections like no other. You're (we're) not the concern of the elite besides our obedience/disobedience and that's fucking it, nothing less or more, IMO anyway. The rich getting richer while the poor and middle class getting poorer is not a huge problem they care about fixing any time soon. You act like a whole bunch of poor people made the constitution, they didn't, not even close. Maybe we need a newer one made up in today's language right now, I don't know, sounds crazy (puts on suit). Seems like the ones on top aren't following the one we have now anyway in all seriousness. Either way when the President can barely get shit done I don't know how I'm expected to get anything done, ever.

Really given the history of our country how the hell could you say that? In reality this reaffirms what I have said. You've defeated yourself before even beginning.
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I gave 'we the people' 10-20% say in what matters, the problem is that specific 10-20% is only utilized when 'we the people' make shit hit the fan. That's the only time they all stop, look, and listen. Serious, and those are bad days for everyone involved. More so for the receiving end.


If 99% of the people are "powerless" as you put it how are they going to create a third or fourth political party?
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I said 99% are powerless 80-90% of the time. As for creating a third or fourth party let me know when you know. I know it needs to be done but without billions of dollars I also know (feel) it can't be done. Money talks and bullshit walks...lol.

This is what the average US citizen will do on Monday after learning their government spies on everything they do.
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What can 'we the people' do? Do you have the answers to the problems and the connections in government and money to lobby those in the government and friends to back you and the patience and resources it takes to achieve these goals? If so, get a move on (.org). Other than that more than the "average" US citizen will be doing that on Monday. The system is setup this way for the top to rule the bottom and it always has been. Everything else is illusion.


This is what Turkey did because the government wanted to build a mall on a park.
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That's awesome, maybe it will happen here (runs, ducks, and hides).


Hell I'll go one step further. I will do what everyone else will do ....nothing. I am as much of the problem as everyone else.
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You first, you first, you first. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=4BIzI9QUx4U
 
MasonD said:
Yet they're not in control of others lives, humans are humans.
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Have you worked in the private sector at all??? I'm not being funny. I'm asking a honest question. There are things in businesses called managers and supervisors. They control other peoples lives every day and 99.9% of them don't work in Washington.

MasonD said:
However it takes a certain kind of (not normal) person to lie and manipulate and deceive globally and in front of the faces of a whole population of (somewhat) good/regular/trying/hurting people.
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Oh I agree it does take a special kind of person. But they aren't in short supply over here.

There is this guy (Jeffrey Dahmer):
Jeffrey_Dahmer_HS_Yearbook.jpg


He at brains and penises which were supplied by the many people he manipulated, deceived. We don't know if the people who had their flesh eaten were "good" but we can probably say they didn't share in the same pastime as him.

He didn't work in Washington from what I understand.

And there's this guy (Loyd Blankfein):

lloyd_blankfein_2.jpg


He doesn't work in Washington but I'm sure he's bilked quite a few grandmothers from their retirement. God knows how many people he's lied to. But I'm willing to say it was an awful lot since he's done it on TV too.


MasonD said:
Shepard's != sheep.
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I'm sure you have heard of the saying "If Johnny jumps off a cliff would you?" The person following is just as bad because the person was just as stupid as the person committing the crime.

MasonD said:
From what I understand the same men that wrote the constitution in that day are equivalent to today's currently elected officials/rich/influential, not poor (average people). Most were very well educated and very well off but needed a more stable environment to work with. They have that right now.
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And what about these people:

susan-b-anthony-320x240.jpg


martin-luther-king21.jpg


Both of them accomplished a lot. Neither was rich. The changes they created in society had very little to do with money.

MasonD said:
What can 'we the people' do?
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The same thing I have to do.....stop being afraid.
 
MasonD said:
You show crazy extreme cases that don't prove anything (irrelevant). I'll talk about the other 99.9988% of the time. Convo is done after that response. Good day!
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The extremes are there because people often times want to believe what they want to believe. The extremes just highlight the weaknesses in arguments.

The fact remains this country has time and time again corrected errors/mistakes from it's leaders. Nine times out of ten the person who starts the movement is a nobody. Usually it's a person who is fed up and has the courage to stand up and make a difference. It's not impossible. We've done it in the US countless times. I'll leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oue9HIOM7xU

This is a video of a 9 year old who stood up to Rahm Emanuel. He didn't change the world but he got his school reopened.... at the age of 9. He doesn't have a job. His family couldn't be that rich. But there's no way you could call that kid powerless.
 
kac77 said:
The extremes are there because people often times want to believe what they want to believe. The extremes just highlight the weaknesses in arguments.

The fact remains this country has time and time again corrected errors/mistakes from it's leaders. Nine times out of ten the person who starts the movement is a nobody. Usually it's a person who is fed up and has the courage to stand up and make a difference. It's not impossible. We've done it in the US countless times. I'll leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oue9HIOM7xU

This is a video of a 9 year old who stood up to Rahm Emanuel. He didn't change the world but he got his school reopened.... at the age of 9. He doesn't have a job. His family couldn't be that rich. But there's no way you could call that kid powerless.
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The typical MasonD response when there is potential of loss is to make one last comment and say the conversation is over. It basically means that you won internet argument points. :D
 
kac77 said:
The extremes are there because people often times want to believe what they want to believe. The extremes just highlight the weaknesses in arguments.
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lol

The extremes highlight randomness, nothing more. Telling me obvious things like serial killers exist doesn't tell me shit about anything we were talking about. If I told you someone wouldn't kill anybody even if their life was on the line does the same, nothing. You just wasted time.
 
Oncebanneandbacktroll, also you missed me and kac77 stated our peace and IMO it was over (agree to disagree). No reason to waste anyone else's time that would end up reading it. Seems logical to me.

If he wants to keep ranting fine.
 
MasonD said:
Make like your old account. Keep me out of your mouth, I don't even talk to trolls.
Feel like you're stalking me just saying that.
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Sorry, didn't mean to poke a soft spot. I really shouldn't point out your escape route since it's rude. It probably won't happen again. *high fives*
 
The biggest joke is anyone believing so-called terrorists are still using electronically-surveillable means of communication.
 
MasonD said:
lol
The extremes highlight randomness, nothing more.
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If it really meant nothing, or if the arguments didn't connect would you really waste your time here? I doubt it.

MasonD said:
Telling me obvious things like serial killers exist doesn't tell me shit about anything we were talking about.
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So Susan B. Anthony was a serial killer? Are you sure you have a firm grasp on American History? I thought she was a Quaker who fought for woman's rights.
(Notice how I gave an extreme response which highlights the fact that Jeffery Dahmer wasn't the only example given, nor the only point being made)

All jokes aside, the fact remains that the populous as a whole put the people in office and have not decided it's worth doing anything about the atrocities they commit and that poor people or people of little means can create change for the better. You don't have to be rich to make a difference.

MasonD said:
You just wasted time.
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I don't think I did. I think that the next time you get all depressed about how you're powerless to change something you'll remember this discussion....well at least I hope so.
 
using vpn/tor won't do anything if you're a person of interest... they can break the encryption effortlessly
 
The problem in all this is that no one will do anything until shit really hits the fan. All those revolutions happening everywhere else occurred because the populous was already at the breaking point. We are still far from it and it will take a lot more shit to get us there before we have something even close to an arab spring.

So in the mean time, carry on about your business and stop wasting your time talking about it. Unless more than 70% of the people feel the same way about this or any other government action nothing will ever happen. I give it a week, two tops before this go away like the Armstrong doping scandal.

This is not to say that I don't care. I do care, but in my heart of hearts I know I can't do anything about it and I have a lot more important things to worry about than the government reading my email. Things like putting food on my table and gas in my cars. Until the government does something to effect my ability to do that, I am going to keep taking it up the ass from the big guy upstairs. So what I mean to say is, until more people are affected directly, no one will do anything and nothing will ever get organized, and nothing will ever happen.

That is a very sad fact of life right now.
 
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