Apple's Tax Hypocrisy

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This guy makes some very good points in this article. This one in particular strikes a nerve with a lot of our students:

If Apple really cares about a shortage of homegrown engineering talent, then it should pay taxes to fund the institutions that could address that problem. Yes, I know. What they've done in seeking out every loophole from Eire to eternity is technically legal. It’s the fault of the governments that allow these loopholes to exist.
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It's not "allows these loopholes to exist". Somebody wrote those loopholes into law. Somebody created the loophole, lobbied a congressman or two to support it, who then inserted it into a bill which was voted on and passed.

And then ran all the way to the bank. Loopholes are created. They're intentional.
 
If Apple really cares about a shortage of homegrown engineering talent, then it should pay taxes to fund the institutions that could address that problem.
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lol How cute. They'd have a point if our tax dollars were used wisely by the government instead of an unlimited source of free money. Whats up with the younger generation and the feeling of entitlement? That's some scary shit.

As far as Hypocrisy goes... If you're not paying any more than your legal obligation in taxes, and have the balls to complain when someone else does the same thing... you need to brush up on your critical thinking skills.
 
temujin987 said:
but taxes are communism!
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No growing taxes to the point of wealth redistribution is communism. This is just a symptom of a broken tax code, and politicians unwillingness to reform it. Taxes are a necessary evil in order to have a functioning government with public services. However your functionally retarded to be shocked that if taxes are lower in other states or other country's that company's will go elsewhere to pay less and increase revenue, that's what businesses are designed to do . .. . make money! Not provide revenue for the government .. . . shocker I know right.

This is why in a "global economy" you have to be compete to keep businesses in your state or country, because if it costs more to do business here, company's that can will take their jobs and move elsewhere. Look at California businesses and people have been leaving that place in droves for nearly a decade for other states like Nevada, Texas, and Arizona, to avoid the bat shit tax rates at the personal and corporate level.
 
dr.stevil said:
lol How cute. They'd have a point if our tax dollars were used wisely by the government instead of an unlimited source of free money. Whats up with the younger generation and the feeling of entitlement? That's some scary shit.

As far as Hypocrisy goes... If you're not paying any more than your legal obligation in taxes, and have the balls to complain when someone else does the same thing... you need to brush up on your critical thinking skills.
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this~!
 
It can also be said from the other side, if people want Apple to supply those high paying engineering jobs in the US we should change the tax structure to something that actually encourages companies to spend here and be here. At the very least it should be a tax structure that is able to compete with other countries.

Frankly the hypocrisy is stronger with anyone criticizing Apple (And I hate Apple!) for using legal tax strategies while they themselves use any legal method to lower their personal taxes. I don't care if it's $1 or $1 trillion. It's purely a do as I say not as I do mentality.
 
A day late and a dollar short.

Companies that do this due to competition are just morally bankrupt. Then again people tend to think that rich people or wealthy companies should not have to answer to governments which made it possible for them to make the money in the first place.

And if you have such an opinion then this happens http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039904746&postcount=2

Yes you just said the magic word communism it is something you say when you don't understand things and want to express your opinion anyway.

So if you want to stop Steve posting news just tell him he is a communist :)
 
Pieter3dnow said:
A day late and a dollar short.

Companies that do this due to competition are just morally bankrupt. Then again people tend to think that rich people or wealthy companies should not have to answer to governments which made it possible for them to make the money in the first place.

And if you have such an opinion then this happens http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039904746&postcount=2

Yes you just said the magic word communism it is something you say when you don't understand things and want to express your opinion anyway.

So if you want to stop Steve posting news just tell him he is a communist :)
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your sarcasm meter must be broken. His comment was in jest

Anyway... the government is supposed to answer to the people... not the other way around. ;)
 
People confuse legality and morality all of the time. Yes, what Apple is doing is legal. But you'd have a tough time arguing the morality of hiding the bulk of your money so that you don't have to pay into the system from which you're benefiting.
 
Yet another disparging and defaming anti-Apple thread title.


As I mentioned in THIS other thread (which also has a defaming anti-apple title), Apple is not the only company to do this. In fact, pretty much ALL companies who deal heavily with intellectual property, expecially tech companies, do this exact same thing. It is very well known in that field to do this. Why do you continue to single out Apple as if they are the only ones doing this?


And again, Apple pretty much legally has to do these tax breaks. Loopholes like these are not some shady accounting trick. They are tax breaks that all companies can take advantage of. Getting an income tax break because you have dependant children is a "loophole". That is what a loophole is. It is simply a tax break for some criteria. Thre are TONS of these in existance for corporations. Now, I admit that filtering money through Ireland is a bit different than that. However, all multi-national companies utilize tax laws of various countries to their advantage. They legally have to. This really is no different than that.


Apple, being a public corporation, has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Period. If they determine that it is in the best interest of the shareholders to save billions of dollars by doing this, they legally have to do it. It is not an option. The only way they would not have to do it is if they could make a valid argument that by instead of saving these billions of dollars, that if they spent them in tax money, it would somehow give Apple a competitive advantage over its competitors. Since, one cannot realistically make a good argument for that, they have to filter money through Ireland's tax laws. Just like every other company.


If you hate this, then hate our government and its corporate tax laws. Do not hate Apple. They are just doing what they legally have to do based on our laws. So is every other company. It is silly, unfair, and wrong to single Apple out in this manner.
 
haysupimark said:
It's not "allows these loopholes to exist". Somebody wrote those loopholes into law. Somebody created the loophole, lobbied a congressman or two to support it, who then inserted it into a bill which was voted on and passed.

And then ran all the way to the bank. Loopholes are created. They're intentional.
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Also in this same train of thought, the NFL being classified as a NPO is getting some light of day too. All because way back in 1966 the NFL lobbied and lobbied and got their organization tagged as a special case of NPO into a completely unrelated bill that got passed. Loopholes are created ... intentionally. ;)


That said, even if corporate taxes were 0% in this company, they still wouldn't bring jobs here, they'd keep them overseas because there's no reason to bring them here, speaking of the manufacturing side of things.
 
Super-D said:
People confuse legality and morality all of the time. Yes, what Apple is doing is legal. But you'd have a tough time arguing the morality of hiding the bulk of your money so that you don't have to pay into the system from which you're benefiting.
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It is not just legal to do what they are doing. They legally HAVE to do what they are doing.


A public corporation cannot do what they believe is the morally correct thing to do, unless they can somehow justify that it is also the best thing financially for its shareholders.

For instance, a public corporation cannot legally donate money anonomously. Because they are spending money and receiving no gain. You cannot make an argument that this would be best for its shareholders financially. However, a public corporation CAN donate money publically. Even though they are spending money, the board can argue that by donating this money (and making it known to the public) they are generating goodwill, and therefore the public will like them better and will support them by buying its products more.

At the end of the day, a public corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. They have to justify everything they do as being in the best financial interest of its shareholders. This is the number one rule they HAVE to abide by. By law, they do not have a choice to go against this.
 
Taxes are theft say the baby boomers, the most entitled generation in American history. Gimme gimme gimme! Oh now you want some? Get a job, communist.
 
Super-D said:
People confuse legality and morality all of the time. Yes, what Apple is doing is legal. But you'd have a tough time arguing the morality of hiding the bulk of your money so that you don't have to pay into the system from which you're benefiting.
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Where is this sense of entitlement coming from, it's beyond pathetic. The idea that people should pay as much as possible to the government out of some sick twisted moral obligation to the government.

If you feel the government is not getting enough money you are free to pay more if you like, so go ahead and help solve that.
 
This is beyond stupid.

The article essentially advocates suspending the notion of personal motivation at Apple, to adequately solve a corollary motivation of Apples.

Individuals have preferences. Its stupid to try to combine these into some arbitrary measure of social utility.
 
H@RD5 said:
Where is this sense of entitlement coming from, it's beyond pathetic. The idea that people should pay as much as possible to the government out of some sick twisted moral obligation to the government.

If you feel the government is not getting enough money you are free to pay more if you like, so go ahead and help solve that.
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Hey here's an idea. Lets close the loopholes so companies pay their fair share and also cut waste? We can't do both?
 
Goride said:
If you hate this, then hate our government and its corporate tax laws. Do not hate Apple. They are just doing what they legally have to do based on our laws. So is every other company. It is silly, unfair, and wrong to single Apple out in this manner.
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Your entire post makes too much sense. ;)
 
Pieter3dnow said:
A day late and a dollar short.

Companies that do this due to competition are just morally bankrupt. Then again people tend to think that rich people or wealthy companies should not have to answer to governments which made it possible for them to make the money in the first place.

A
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People keep saying companies do this because of a competitive advantage, it's far from it and everyone is doing something similar. They aren't doing it to hoard money, they are doing it because they are legally required to return the best value possible to their shareholders. This is why Tim Cook's statement that simplifying the code even taxes aren't really lowered would really help because they would have money due to not having to go through all the S-companies and shuffling they currently have to do.

Another good example is how Softbank has basically bent over backwards to allow Sprint to persue a deal with Dish. They don't want shareholders to get pissed and threaten to sue to stop the merger like they threatened Clearwire with one for blowing off Dish's offer during their buyout. Softbank is effectively calling Dish's bluff by not fighting it, so they won't have to end up paying more than originally agreed, unlike Sprint. It's also is doing Sprint a solid by getting Dish to back off of Clearwire.
 
Super-D said:
People confuse legality and morality all of the time. Yes, what Apple is doing is legal. But you'd have a tough time arguing the morality of hiding the bulk of your money so that you don't have to pay into the system from which you're benefiting.
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There is NO money being hidden. That would be tax evasion (illegal). They're not cooking their books, laundering money nor trying to pull a 'fast one' (unlike many of our politicians). The govt, IRS and other regulating bodies have access to all of that information... Not just Apple, but any public company.

As for paying into the system in which they're benefiting, you don't call 7.4 BILLION contributing?

Get real. If you want to talk about contributing or lack thereof, the ONLY ones that aren't contributing into the system they're benefiting from are the 53% of Americans that don't pay (or qualify to pay) federal income tax. You can't legislate morality (as 53% of the population proves). Either lobby to change the tax laws and vote out the dickheads that want to maintain the status quo or learn to accept it.


Did you send a single dime more than you owed to the IRS this year (assuming you paid taxes) for your 2012 taxes? Forfeit any qualifying deductions or writeoffs? If not, then you should really start practicing what you preach...
 
H@RD5 said:
No growing taxes to the point of wealth redistribution is communism.
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No, virtual complete elimination of private property/wealth and government ownership of most every business/wealth and utility is communism.

Redistributing some wealth via taxation is progressive taxation and quite frankly common sense. The alternative is to watch the rich get richer as they game and manipulate the system to serve their needs exclusively while everyone else gets poorer irregardless of how they work. Which is pretty much the system we have today.






H@RD5 said:
Not provide revenue for the government .. . . shocker I know right.
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Whatever the intention of the business owners they are still expected to provide revenue to the government by society and the laws of the country or _were_ at least before businesses got their loopholes lobbied into law and effectively operate tax free...if they're big enough anyways. Small business owners, and I mean the truly small guys not the legal definition that that has been loopholed up, are getting screwed of course because they don't have the legal resources or lobbying power of the big guys.

H@RD5 said:
This is why in a "global economy" you have to be compete to keep businesses in your state or country, because if it costs more to do business here, company's that can will take their jobs and move elsewhere.
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If businesses are free to take their factories elsewhere while still making use of a given countries' infrastructure, tax loopholes and labor then those countries are also free to enact measures to tax those businesses exceptionally to compensate for the global wage arbitrage which pushes labor's wages down.

H@RD5 said:
Look at California businesses and people have been leaving that place in droves for nearly a decade for other states like Nevada, Texas, and Arizona, to avoid the bat shit tax rates at the personal and corporate level.
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Taxes aren't the problem in CA. Its the high cost of living. Housing prices are still insane there thanks to Prop 13 and price propping measures by the banks/regulators/government. The long driving distances and commute time along with consistent $3+/gal gas is also a hell of a drain on the economy. At the same time other states like Texas are offering ridiculous incentives to attract businesses, which works in the short term as a boost to the local economy but causes long term issues. The bigger boomier cities in TX are already feeling the effects as their infrastructure and cost of living become "California-ized".
 
harbingerofdoom said:
doesnt solve it, but it sure goes a hell of a long way towards helping
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No... It wouldn't. The education system is corrupt and broken... It really needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up. It's not from a lack of money. The US spends more per student for education than any other nation yet we still trail behind. Why is that? Throwing MORE money at it isn't going to magically solve any problems.

How to do that is another topic all together. But it will be ugly. Too much bloat, buerocracy and bullshit in the public school system

http://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
 
Slightly OT. Anyone get the feeling that this whole controversy is smoke and mirrors to distract people from other 'scandals' going on? I mean, this story isn't even really news... It's common practice
 
dr.stevil said:
There is NO money being hidden. That would be tax evasion (illegal).
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Its legalized tax evasion. It should be illegal and once was but they got the laws changed in the favor.

This is not hard to figure out guys.

dr.stevil said:
As for paying into the system in which they're benefiting, you don't call 7.4 BILLION contributing?
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They get all that and then some back. Some of these companies are actually _profiting_ off the government via tax law loopholes. GE made over $1 billion on their taxes. That is clear cut BS and indefensible irregardless of whatever mental gymnastics you're doing in your head to make it seem reasonable.

dr.stevil said:
If you want to talk about contributing or lack thereof, the ONLY ones that aren't contributing into the system they're benefiting from are the 53% of Americans that don't pay (or qualify to pay) federal income tax.
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Can't believe people still go around spouting this talking point.....


dr.stevil said:
You can't legislate morality
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Sure you can. For instance: society at large thinks murder is bad/immoral and made it illegal and subject to harsh punishment. Murder still happens, because there will always be some lawbreakers and nothing is perfect, but this definitely deters murder and thus to a significant though imperfect degree legislates society's views on morality.

Rule enforcement for the rich is currently barely there or in some cases effectively non-existent right now due to lobbying practices and widespread regulatory capture. So of course they're going to abuse the law and rules. Especially when corporate culture pretty much worships at the altar of Gordon Gecko for guidance on ethics and morality. When/if the rules get re-enforced and the laws changed you'll suddenly see a huge difference in the ethics of business. It has always been this way throughout history.

“In many ways the effect of the crash on embezzlement was more significant than on suicide. To the economist embezzlement is the most interesting of crimes. Alone among the various forms of larceny it has a time parameter. Weeks, months or years may elapse between the commission of the crime and its discovery. (This is a period, incidentally, when the embezzler has his gain and the man who has been embezzled, oddly enough, feels no loss. There is a net increase in psychic wealth.) At any given time there exists an inventory of undiscovered embezzlement in – or more precisely not in – the country’s business and banks. This inventory – it should perhaps be called the bezzle – amounts at any moment to many millions of dollars. It also varies in size with the business cycle. In good times people are relaxed, trusting, and money is plentiful. But even though money is plentiful, there are always many people who need more. Under these circumstances the rate of embezzlement grows, the rate of discovery falls off, and the bezzle increases rapidly. In depression all this is reversed. Money is watched with a narrow, suspicious eye. The man who handles it is assumed to be dishonest until he proves himself otherwise. Audits are penetrating and meticulous. Commercial morality is enormously improved. The bezzle shrinks.”
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Did you send a single dime more than you owed to the IRS this year (assuming you paid taxes) for your 2012 taxes? Forfeit any qualifying deductions or writeoffs? If not, then you should really start practicing what you preach...[/QUOTE]
 
haysupimark said:
It's not "allows these loopholes to exist". Somebody wrote those loopholes into law. Somebody created the loophole, lobbied a congressman or two to support it, who then inserted it into a bill which was voted on and passed.

And then ran all the way to the bank. Loopholes are created. They're intentional.
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Yup. The very people griping about how complicated our (corporate) tax code is...are the very people that lobbied to make it what it is now. They got what they wanted, and now they don't like it. Talk about being ballsy.


Then there's the response of Congresspeople interviewing these creeps...which reveals them to be utterly balls-less.
 
I would love to see this author explain the rampant theft from the funds in CA that are supposed to be used for schools and get wasted on all sorts of other BS resulting in some of the worst schools in the nation. We just had a vote to increase taxes that the government "promises" will go to our schools but instead the money goes into the general fund never to be seen again. Mary Munger tried to pass a proposition that would earmark the money directly for schools only and Jerry Brown and the other politicians went at her throat for it.

Unfortunately, as others have mentioned, our government doesn't care about people being educated. If the population was better educated they probably wouldn't vote for the idiots we have in office.
 
Let me say this is nicely as I possibly can: Some of you people are incredibly retarded. Showing charts and all of that, as if you have a clue.

Here's the deal: The rich get rich because the poor are relatively stupid. The poor are stupid because of #1 genetics and #2 the government enables behavior that lets these people get by without any motivation to stop being stupid. The government enables the behavior because everyone who isn't poor feels sorry for the stupid people, so they give the government all of this power to help the poor, which really has the opposite effect. You also have this rogue category of rich who take advantage of the system the government sets up which lets them take advantage of everyone who is a part of the system.

Solution: Recognize we're all different and some people aren't as smart as others. If you feel an obligation to help the poor, do it yourself and maybe convince others to do the same on their own dime. Destroy the structures the government has established which are merely exploited by the rogue element without actually helping those who need it.

Apple is simply doing what is necessary to gain as much as it legally can out of the given system.
 
Fair Tax makes problems like this go away.

Fair Tax makes our economy the most attractive investment environment on the planet.

But...

Fair Tax requires politicians to voluntarily give up power.

So...

Fair Tax will never be enacted.
 
mesyn191 said:
Taxes aren't the problem in CA. Its the high cost of living. Housing prices are still insane there thanks to Prop 13 and price propping measures by the banks/regulators/government. The long driving distances and commute time along with consistent $3+/gal gas is also a hell of a drain on the economy. At the same time other states like Texas are offering ridiculous incentives to attract businesses, which works in the short term as a boost to the local economy but causes long term issues. The bigger boomier cities in TX are already feeling the effects as their infrastructure and cost of living become "California-ized".
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You're right, it's also the rampant over-regulation. It costs $100/ft to get permitting to build a house in CA so you pay $100/ft without even breaking ground. In texas you buy a fully built house all in for $150/ft.
 
Its not the education that they don't want, somebody has to do the books and man the machines after all.

What they don't want is a large population with good critical thinking skills that is able to asses issues more accurately and in a less biased manner.

I think this is why you see so many people today who go around repeating ad infinitum Repub/Tea Party/Libertarian talking points that are easily shown to be false with a 5-10 minute google spree search. Their critical thinking skills were neutered early on when they were kids and they're unable to separate their biases effectively from their thinking. That would also explain also how they're able to ignore the data that is so easily available (like a kid sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalala") OR how they tend to react when confronted with information that disagrees with their world views: with emotion and/or insults.

Their critical thinking skills are at a level with a child's so that is the only way they know how to react.
 
dr.stevil said:
lol How cute. They'd have a point if our tax dollars were used wisely by the government instead of an unlimited source of free money. Whats up with the younger generation and the feeling of entitlement? That's some scary shit.
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Yeah, entitlements such as making sure we have an educated population that can compete in a global market / keep our economy strong That's a slippery slope to the gulags!
 
Goride said:
If you hate this, then hate our government and its corporate tax laws. Do not hate Apple. They are just doing what they legally have to do based on our laws. So is every other company. It is silly, unfair, and wrong to single Apple out in this manner.
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Apple is not following our laws. If they were there would be no need to launder profits through Irish, Dutch, and Caribbean subsidiaries. As for complying with the spirit of the laws?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/b...ategy-aims-at-low-tax-states-and-nations.html
Then, in 2009, after an intense lobbying campaign led by Apple, Cisco, Oracle, Intel and other companies, the California Legislature reduced taxes for corporations based in California but operating in other states or nations. Legislative analysts say the change will eventually cost the state government about $1.5 billion a year.
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I suppose when you purchase the language of the laws to exclude your business from taxation, you are complying with the spirit of the laws as written. Unfortunately, buying laws in a democratic society kind of goes against the spirit of Law itself.

Apple, for instance, was among the first tech companies to designate overseas salespeople in high-tax countries in a manner that allowed them to sell on behalf of low-tax subsidiaries on other continents, sidestepping income taxes, according to former executives. Apple was a pioneer of an accounting technique known as the “Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich,” which reduces taxes by routing profits through Irish subsidiaries and the Netherlands and then to the Caribbean. Today, that tactic is used by hundreds of other corporations — some of which directly imitated Apple’s methods, say accountants at those companies.
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While Apple is not breaking our laws, it is a pioneer and innovator in the field of avoiding our laws. The US Gov't has a long (and ongoing) history of applying its laws outside our borders. Kim Dotcom/Megaupload?

Apple “pays an enormous amount of taxes, which help our local, state and federal governments,” the statement also said. “In the first half of fiscal year 2012, our U.S. operations have generated almost $5 billion in federal and state income taxes, including income taxes withheld on employee stock gains, making us among the top payers of U.S. income tax.”
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Very cute, they counted their employees' income taxes in their total. I wonder if Cook was using similarly creative numbers with congress.
 
The is a lack of talent because there is a lack of jobs, there is a lack of jobs because they (companies) moved them all overseas for the last decade+. They were moved because ...
 
Seventyfive said:
You're right, it's also the rampant over-regulation. It costs $100/ft to get permitting to build a house in CA so you pay $100/ft without even breaking ground. In texas you buy a fully built house all in for $150/ft.
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LOL no the permit costs aren't that high for SFR home in CA. The prices are all available online and you're not going to spend $200K just in permits on a 2000 sqft home. An easy googled example here for Lake Forest, CA which is not the cheapest or most expensive place to live in CA.
 
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