NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

crABtoad said:
I've been trying to determine what the best mPCIE to PCIE adapter was. The only ones I know about are the hwtools PE4L adapter (which looks like a full size mPCIE card, not sure if you could cut it down), and the Amfeltec one I found about a year ago online.
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There's also this and this. I'm not sure any of them will really work though - the layout and size of most means you could only use them in the second slot and not the third, and then you also have the cable to contend with.
 
crABtoad said:
Based on your impressions during thermal testing it sounds like it could improve the average case temperature...

Out of personal curiosity, what adapter did you use to get the Xonar card installed? I've been kicking around the idea of using one when I can fit it.
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Lets not forget Necere is stuffing the case with as much high-end components as he can just to see what limits the case has.

Most of us won't probably. I myself will probably run a Core i5-4470K, Z87 motherboard and a Geforce GTX 770 (with blower cooling) in this case, along with CLC 240mm setup for the CPU and a single SSD as storage.
 
Necere said:
There's also this and this. I'm not sure any of them will really work though - the layout and size of most means you could only use them in the second slot and not the third, and then you also have the cable to contend with.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions... I'm kind of inclined to agree with you that is seems a little unlikely to work. I might kick an email over to adexelec and ask them if they can make a half-height standalone adapter board. From the sounds of it the half-height one described on that page has a separate board required.

Thanks again though, it's at least a couple more possibilities. I might just give up and get an outboard DAC. :D
 
will be using my i7-3770k and my silverstone sfx for this case. will be buying an h220 and a titan hydrocopper.
 
Part 1 is here.

Configuration 3: big air cooler testing

  • P8Z77-I Deluxe
  • i7 3770K
  • Noctua NH-C14
  • HD7970 w/Arctic Cooling Accelero Xtreme
  • SilverStone ST45SF-G
  • 2x 2.5" SDD
  • Slim Optical

While the first set of tests represented a low (case) airflow scenario using a reference GPU, this test is of a different extreme: all the heat dumped inside the case, with relatively high case airflow. A total of four 120mm fans were installed - two in the side bracket running at a constant 1000 RPM; and two PWM fans at the bottom, running between 1000-1700 RPM. The CPU cooler used is one of the largest top-down coolers on the market, the Noctua NH-C14. Meanwhile, the reference 7970 cooler is replaced with the aftermarket Arctic Cooling Accelero Xtreme.

Notes on the NH-C14:
  • Installed in the case on the ASUS P8Z77-I Deluxe, the heatsink only fits in one orientation.
  • With the SFX PSU installed, the lower 140mm fan can not be used, as it hits the PSU.
  • The top 140mm fan may be used, with or without the side fan bracket, but it precludes installing a second 120mm fan on the bracket.
  • For this test, two 120mm fans were installed on the side bracket in lieu of the single 140mm.
  • The dual 3.5" HDD cage can not be used with the heatsink installed.
  • A standard 25mm thick 92 or 80mm fan can not be used on the rear mount on the inside with the heatsink installed.

Notes on the Accelero:
  • The Accelero Xtreme is a three-slot cooler, which, as it comes from the package, won't fit in the case. Specifically, it's too long for the third slot. However, with the stock fans and shroud removed, the heatsink itself will fit, and 120mm fans can be installed on the case floor below. This was the configuration tested.
  • Installing the card with the Accelero proved a mild challenge, requiring the front of the card to be carefully inserted first through the front case opening, then angled back into the slot. There was a tendency to snag on the PSU cables and case edges, and it required some care not to dislodge one of the numerous small heatsinks the Accelero uses for memory/VRM cooling. Overall, it wasn't too bad though.
  • The adhesive thermal paste Arctic uses to attach the dozen or so small aluminum heatsinks to the card is very weak; the manual recommends five hours to cure, but even after 12+ hours the sinks were easily dislodged with an accidental nudge. I actually had one sink fall off after I had everything installed. Luckily, I determined it wasn't cooling anything important (neither the stock cooler nor waterblock made efforts to cool this chip), so I left it off.
  • The heatsinks don't keep the VRMs as cool as the reference cooler (which is pretty well known). This actually made it impossible to effectively test with Furmark, as the VRMs would hit 114C at which point the GPU would throttle.

Other notes:
  • A 92mm fan running at 1500RPM was installed on the rear mount, on the outside.
  • In this configuration, there is no space available for 3.5" drives (but two 2.5" drives may be used, or three in place of the optical).
  • Demciflex filters were installed on the two 120mm side fans.
  • No filters were used on the bottom fans.


Config 3 thermals

In lieu of Furmark (see above note on the Accelero VRM sinks), I used a mix of Heaven, Prime95, and regular gaming to judge temperature results. The side fans, directing air through the CPU cooler/motherboard area and towards the PSU intake, ran at a constant 1K RPM. The bottom fans were set using Speedfan to ramp up from 1k to 1700 RPM based on the GPU temp.

We've been having some warm weather recently, so ambient was fairly high at 27-28C. I took quite a few measurements, trying different fan configurations (side in, side out, rear in, rear out), but didn't see major differences between them. These are some representative sample measurements:

Heaven
28C ambient
2x120 bottom fans in @1700RPM, 2x120mm side fans in@1000RPM, rear 92mm out@1500RPM
7970@1125/1575: ~72C GPU, ~98C VRMs
CPU: ~45C

Heaven + Prime95
28C ambient
2x120 bottom fans in @1700RPM, 2x120mm side fans in@1000RPM, rear 92mm out@1500RPM
7970@1125/1575: ~68C GPU, ~87C VRMs
CPU: ~71C

Gaming
28C ambient
2x120 bottom fans in @1700RPM, 2x120mm side fans in@1000RPM, rear 92mm out@1500RPM
7970@1125/1575: ~68C GPU, ~89C VRMs
CPU: ~53C

As you can see, the CPU and GPU temps are, if not amazing, at least satisfactory. Not unexpected, actually, considering both receive direct airflow from outside the case. The GPU core temps are considerably lower than with the stock blower, though the VRMs definitely got hotter. The Nh-C14 performed well enough, despite having a single (or one and a quarter) 1000RPM 120mm fan in place of the stock dual 140mms.

I also noted the temps reported by the SSDs (mounted vertically at the front of the case) and the Intel PCH. The former hit ~45C, while the latter ~65C. These are well within the acceptable range, as I understand.

As for the case itself, under heavy load conditions the top panel, and especially the area the PSU exhaust flows through, got quite warm. This is to be expected, really, since without a blower-style GPU cooler all the heat generated in the case must exit through the top and rear, and aluminum picks up and conducts heat quite readily. This is more of a perceived issue than actual though, as the components themselves were operating at reasonable temperatures. Still, I'm concerned that the case will be perceived as "an oven," just because of how warm the exterior gets. Nevertheless, there doesn't appear to be much that can be done about it without signficantly changing the layout and/or aesthetics. I tried flipping the side fans to exhaust, but that just shifted most of the heat to the left side panel. This is also why a top fan won't accomplish much. The fact of the matter is, if you've got warm air moving through perforated aluminum, some of that heat is going to get picked up by it. Most cases mask the issue by using thin steel grilles at the rear, where one isn't likely to touch them.

It's worth noting that the right side panel didn't experience the same heating in this configuration as with the blower-style GPU. I expect the cause of that was air from the blower cooler escaping from the rear/side was quite hot, whereas the heat from the GPU with the Accelero is spread over a much larger area and only a small portion of it ends up behind the motherboard.


Config 3 noise

With four 120mm and one 92mm fan running at 1K RPM (1.5K for the 92mm), it was definitely not as quiet at idle as configuration 1. The high ambient also resulted in more noise from the ST45SF-G. At load, however, the system wasn't nearly as loud as the blower setup. The acoustics are likely less favorable compared with a quieter blower card (e.g., nvidia), though.


Config 3 pics





 
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crABtoad said:
Ahhh... Right, I missed that. :rolleyes:

I've been trying to determine what the best mPCIE to PCIE adapter was. The only ones I know about are the hwtools PE4L adapter (which looks like a full size mPCIE card, not sure if you could cut it down), and the Amfeltec one I found about a year ago online.
Click to expand...

I saw this on overclock.net:
600x473px-LL-9c91974a_PE4L-PM060A.jpeg

http://www.overclock.net/t/1268780/mini-pci-e-micro-atx-sound-card-issue
Though I'm not sure if it'll fit the bottom of the case.
I have the Amfeltec one and imo that kind of ribbon cable is quite flimsy, a little tension and the ribbon cable get pulled out of its connectors. Running a sata multiplier card with it, I had the card not work when the ribbon was bent in certain ways.

Looking at the shape of the pci-e x1 connector, I'm also worried if the ones from hwtools or Amfeltec will even fit. the hwtools one may hit the bottom of the case and the amfeltec one may hit the back of the case.
 
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cowsgomoo said:
I saw this on overclock.net:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1268780/mini-pci-e-micro-atx-sound-card-issue
Though I'm not sure if it'll fit the bottom of the case.
I have the Amfeltec one and imo that kind of ribbon cable is quite flimsy, a little tension and the ribbon cable get pulled out of its connectors. Running a sata multiplier card with it, I had the card not work when the ribbon was bent in certain ways.

Looking at the shape of the pci-e x1 connector, I'm also worried if the ones from hwtools or Amfeltec will even fit. the hwtools one may hit the bottom of the case and the amfeltec one may hit the back of the case.
Click to expand...

That's the PE4L from hwtools, and yeah it looks like it's the most likely to actually fit. The amfeltec one (which seems to be the only other half-height of the bunch) has a big chunky PCIE x1 adapter board. I'll probably wait until I have the case so I can meticulously measure each clearance before I pull the trigger on one of these adapters. If it works, awesome... If not, well I can post my findings around here when I eventually get around to it.

edit:// not sure if you'll catch this or not cowsgomoo, but i didn't want to clutter the thread up with junk that isn't directly about the M1. I realize now that you mentioned a half-height version of the PE4L that I wasn't aware of, or consciously thinking of... Thanks!
 
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First of all, this case is fantastic and i love it even more than my sg08.

A) Would it be possible to put two 140mm fans on the bottom of the case. My reasoning is that the case is 160mm wide and the 140mm fans have a higher airflow while being more silent.

B) Would it be possible to have a cpu with a 240mm rad positioned pushing air out of the case on the side. WHILE having a single slot water cooled gpu with a 240 mm pushing air down and out of the case. Would the 1 slotness of the gpu provide enough room to fit a the rad and fans. (This is assuming fully self contained systems, where the pump and tank are in the rad.)

C) Necere, so would putting the ventilation holes behind the motherboard allow for enough air flow when the side and bottom have 120mm fans all pushing out of the case? (In the case of two 240mm rads, if i used a direct cu ii i would have the bottom two pushing in and the side two pushing out.)
 
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lordmocha said:
First of all, this case is fantastic and i love it even more than my sg08.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

lordmocha said:
A) Would it be possible to put two 140mm fans on the bottom of the case. My reasoning is that the case is 160mm wide and the 140mm fans have a higher airflow while being more silent.
Click to expand...
No. The case is 160mm wide, but there are parts of the case that would prevent installation of 140mm fans on the bottom. Specifically, the clips that hold the side panels on.

lordmocha said:
B) Would it be possible to have a cpu with a 240mm rad positioned pushing air out of the case on the side. WHILE having a single slot water cooled gpu with a 240 mm pushing air down and out of the case. Would the 1 slotness of the gpu provide enough room to fit a the rad and fans. (This is assuming fully self contained systems, where the pump and tank are in the rad.)
Click to expand...
This has been discussed a fair bit. Basically: 240 rad on bottom, don't count on it. 120 rad on bottom, maybe - with slim fans, slim rad, and waterblock on the GPU.

lordmocha said:
C) Necere, so would putting the ventilation holes behind the motherboard allow for enough air flow when the side and bottom have 120mm fans all pushing out of the case? (In the case of two 240mm rads, if i used a direct cu ii i would have the bottom two pushing in and the side two pushing out.)
Click to expand...
It's more to 1.) allow warm air to escape from behind the motherboard tray, and 2.) allow the PSU to be flipped to intake air directly from outside.
 
Dbterp said:
will be using my i7-3770k and my silverstone sfx for this case. will be buying an h220 and a titan hydrocopper.
Click to expand...

Will a H220 actually be able to adequately cool a CPU and a Titan? I guess if it can adequately cool a 7970 it should be able to for a Titan as well. I have only seen 1 review of the H220 doing a CPU+GPU loop, and that was with a 3930 @ 4.0GHz and a 680. The temps at load were 85C for the CPU and 65C for the GPU. I guess it should work in theory as Ivy Bridge and Haswell have much lower TDP than the 3930, that pretty much offsets the TDP difference of a 680 to a 7970/Titan.
 
To add to what Necere said about the rads in the bottom:

Looking around Frozencpu I see a few slim 120/240 rads that are 30mm thick. They also have some slim 120mm fans that are 15mm and 20mm thick. Thats 45mm total at minimum. I don't know the distance from the floor of the case to a gpu water block, but it has to be cutting it close if you want to leave room for the fan to breath.

No doubt someone will try it, hope it works for their sake.

*Scythe makes 12mm thick 120mm fans but they are few and far between since the US distributor folded.
 
Necere, or anyone else, how hot does the 7970 with the reference blower-style fan get in open air under the same sort of loads you tested at?
 
Dual 240s would be so completely sick in this case though... Hoping that fits with some low-profile rads, thin fans, and gentle nudging...

I am so interested in this, even if it means I can't have my sound card with a wacky adapter board that might not fit (or work).
 
thanks necere for the quick reply!

yeah ok, if someone makes a card like this but with the tubes connectors at the end. that would be great, but then you'd still have to fit the tubes to the pump and then to rad... idk, i guess we wait and see what other people manage to fit in

i'll probably just use a 240mm for the cpu, a triple slot direct cu II 680, two 2.5", and a 92mm

i definitely like the idea of the psu being turned around for the fresh air, although some others might not like the look of the mobo through the holes

Necere said:
No. The case is 160mm wide, but there are parts of the case that would prevent installation of 140mm fans on the bottom. Specifically, the clips that hold the side panels on.
Click to expand...

when you say 'prevents installation' are you saying that they wont fit at all, or that you wont be able to screw them down? (im now thinking about the noctua AF-A15 fans with the 120mm mounting spots on it here)
 
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I don't think it's the height of the slim rad + slim fan that is the problem with fitting a dual 120 in the bottom, I believe it is the length. Shortest length dual 120 I can find is 276mm. Even if it could fit how good would a slim rad with slim fans actually perform? You'd also have to use an external pump/res combo.
 
What would the effect of thin acoustic insulation mats be (There exist some marketed for pc use)? Would it destroy the thermal values? Would it have any significant impact on the noise the case produces?
 
Solving noise issues and adding insulation is far from straightforward. If you add insulation that restricts or diverts airflow then there will be a penalty to temperatures, and fan speeds may increase to make the the noise louder than when you started. If you fully block vents and/or seal air gaps that can be even worse.

Insulation material varies in quality and type - some will damp high frequency, other material will damp low frequency. It's difficult to damp everything well with just one material, especially just a thin sheet. Ideally you need to identify exactly which components are causing intrusive noise and then come up with specific solutions, rather than just use some generic insulation and hope it works.

Space is extremely tight here anyway, it's difficult to see where you could put any insulation that would have any low noise benefits. If noise is a serious problem for you then this case is is likely to be very challenging (as would be any SFF case.) Major compromises on CPU and GPU will be needed.

I'm not sure if it will fit or be an effective quiet solution, but one idea I had was to install SilverStone NT01-PRO with either a single 92mm-120mm, or two 80mm fans facing up to vent, and a nvidia reference type graphics card. CPU type would be 45W-65W only and no side fans on the case.
 
wreckem said:
I don't think it's the height of the slim rad + slim fan that is the problem with fitting a dual 120 in the bottom, I believe it is the length. Shortest length dual 120 I can find is 276mm. Even if it could fit how good would a slim rad with slim fans actually perform? You'd also have to use an external pump/res combo.
Click to expand...

I'm using the magicool slim radiators that are 30mm thick. I'm also using the scythe 12mm highest speed fans, and using a fan controller they never exceed 1100 rpm when on a single and double 120 rad cooling a 3770k and gtx560ti 448 both overclocked. The temps are pretty good and sound wise its not a hair dryer, but it isn't silent.
 
Just wanted to say that if anyone is considering the ECS motherboard with 2 expansion slots, I just found out it only has sata II connections, so if you have a decent SSD you would waste some speed. Man, I really Hope ECS makes a revision with sata III, usb 3 and power LED header.
 




I think we can forget water cooling for this case, but you know what, I'm actually even more interested now that I've seen the way the bottom fans bring fresh air to the graphics card and the Noctua cooler looks. I just dislike the way the fans are really compressed against the Noctua. Is that because you are using the fan filters or it's always like that?

Any chance you can show a picture of the case without the two fans and instead the 140mm fan on the Noctua?

Necere said:
Notes on the NH-C14:
With the SFX PSU installed, the lower 140mm fan can not be used, as it hits the PSU
Click to expand...

What about installing a 120mm fan between the motherboard and the Noctua? Can you try that?

Necere said:
The Accelero Xtreme is a three-slot cooler, which, as it comes from the package, won't fit in the case. Specifically, it's too long for the third slot. However, with the stock fans and shroud removed, the heatsink itself will fit, and 120mm fans can be installed on the case floor below.
Click to expand...

What about having the two fans installed and a stock graphics card? Something like the GTX 680 or even the HD7970 you used on part1 one of the testing?
 
Out of interest why dont Flex ATX motherboards work? I found some nice ones way better than the ECS. The size of Flex ATX is 229*191 mm height and width respectively. If the case did indeed receive a height increase would the flex ATX boards be viable then?
 
I think it would require 21mm to be added to the length of the case to accommodate flex atx? because there is not much space from the edge of the mini-ITX mobo to the PSU
 
Mini-DTX: 203 mm * 170 mm
Flex-ATX: 229 mm * 191 mm

I doubt Flex-ATX would fit. Then again, there are even less Flex-ATX motherboards then there are Mini-DTX motherboards
 
How much does the temp improve if you remove the filters? I hear mixed reviews on demciflex in regards to flow restriction.
 
Ian, if the height was increased then the micro ATX PSU would fit, making space for flex ATX.
Edit: This is just me fantasizing, I would still vote against a height increase if there ever is a poll :D
 
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cookiePlant said:
Would it be possible to find a mini-PCIe to usb adapter and plug in a soundcard like that?
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I'm confused, how would that be better than just using a USB sound card or DAC into normal USB port? or did you mean to adapt a PCIe card -> USB? There are external PCIe adapters available, but they are are expensive and I don't think I've seen one that plugs into mini-PCIe.

cookiePlant said:
Ian, if the height was increased then the micro ATX PSU would fit, making space for flex ATX
Click to expand...
I think it's only modular ATX that is a problem due to the connectors adding extra length? ATX (up to 140mm) with captive cable can fit already if you accept the reduced GFX card length: http://i.imgur.com/UHjy0Tvm.jpg

cookiePlant said:
Edit: This is just me fantasizing, I would still vote against a height increase if there ever is a poll :D
Click to expand...
I missed the original post for why the height might increase, but was it to do with the watercooling fit, which may now be solved? see this earlier post from Necere:

Necere said:
I did do some fitment testing with the GPU block and fittings though - as you may recall w360 mentioned I had some concern about those having clearance between the block and the rad. The short of it is, I tried both barb fittings and compression fittings for 1/2" OD tubing, and only the barbs fit. So I've made some adjustments to the CAD file that will allow a bit more room for the final version.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah there are definitely no adapters that allow you to connect a pci-e x1 to a USB2.0 or USB3.0 internal port. The communication interface is different. It's either the mini-pci-e or nothing.
 
Thanks for answering my query cow. So it looks like we are having a hard time finding a way to use a dedicated sound card alongside a dual slot gpu in this case :( .
 
cookiePlant said:
A sound card like the Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD or Xonar Essence STX
Click to expand...

I've got two of the SBs, I think they're great and not overly expensive either. If you really wanted to, you could store the SB in the case and use some sort of custom pci bracket to pass the line out/mic ports.
 
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