NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

I'd prefer not making the case any bigger. If any room is needed, imo, it should be taken from the 3rd pcie slot, which is pretty optional in it's use. For me personally all I need is room for a 2 slot GPU and maybe 1x 2.5" drive (i use a 250GB mSATA SSD so I really have no need for other drives).
 
I'm ambivalent about adding 2cm in height.
With positive pressure a top exhaust may not be required.
 
CrazyRob said:
I'm totally digging the 3rd slot. I'm hoping to get one of these cases and a m-itx board with a mpci-e slot, and using a pci-e 1x to mpci-e adapter, so I can jam a sound card in there along side a 2 slot gpu. Really looking forward to this case!
Click to expand...

Exactly this, I've been wanting a case with a 3rd slot for a long time.

It might actually be a terrible idea to modify the case's dimensions at all at this point of the game... Wouldn't want to alienate the people who've voted with their money. Tricky business...
 
crABtoad said:
It might actually be a terrible idea to modify the case's dimensions at all at this point of the game... Wouldn't want to alienate the people who've voted with their money. Tricky business...
Click to expand...

Indeed.

We will make a poll to let backers vote after thermal testing.
 
Having a backers-only vote is probably the most democratic way to handle it.

How long 'til you get thermal testing done? Really interested in the results.
 
To be fair, even though my kneejerk reaction is to whine about increasing the size of the case, I want to stress that I think Necere should continue to feel confident in his own design process. It can be tough to balance your instincts with the outside chatter but ultimately I think it will be a great case and it will be up to us to either buy or not buy when it's ready. What drew me to the project right away was that it is inspired by the SG05 which is my current and favorite case, because of how well form and function intersect in such a small box. My instinct says stick to that original inspiration as closely as possible and let the next case be inspired by the SG08 etc ;)

But most importantly, those of us who contributed to the first round of funding should have zero entitlement for the final design. We paid money to give him a chance with some prototypes, it's not a pre-order or any nonsense like that. So hopefully people don't play the "I'm a contributor and that's not what I paid for hmmph" card. After all the point of the prototype IS to test and tweak, so I'll try to keep a more open mind.
 
Thermal testing should be done this week.

Whether we need to increase height will largely depend on how the thermals come out.
 
Diverge said:
I'd prefer not making the case any bigger.
Click to expand...
Same. There are reasonable modular options for ATX PSUs and there's at least one good SFF PSU that's ample for a Titan. I don't see a pressing need to enlarge what is intended to be a small case to handle extreme edge cases.
 
Isn't it going to make the entire project more expensive by increasing the case's dimensions after the prototype has been made ? I understand the prototype is to confirm it works as intended and to work out the "bugs" but won't this still be more expensive whereas leaving it like it is now, when most if not almost all configurations will just work, considering thermals ?

I get the reason why you'd want to increase the size to accomodate a few more PSU's but let's see what it would REALLY accomplish.
You can get to fit the following:
- Silverstone ST50F-P 500W
- Corsair CX430M 430W (only 1 PCI-e plug!)
- Silverstone ST65F-G 650W

The first two are 80Plus Bronze and don't exactly shine on the quality department. The only real advantage I see is that those PSU's are cheap. The last one looks to be a decent PSU.

But if a cheaper PSU is your argument, you aren't going to use a 600-1000$ GPU and a 350$ CPU on a 150$ motherboard, with 200$ worth of memory and about the same for a case.
So if you aren't going to run the highest specs, you could just get a Be Quiet SFX 350W PSU for about the same price as those other two 140mm ATX modulars, with even more space to spare.

It just seems ridiculous to me. Most modular PSU's sit at about 160mm depth so you'd need to add atleast 40mm on this case to be able to include them.

We are already talking about increasing it's height and width to increase hardware compatibility. Where will this end ? I just don't see it end. Because someone will bitch about his favorite hardware not fitting but it could if it were 5mm longer and so on.

Please leave the "everything fits" filosophy for an M2, but leave the M1 like it is now.
 
Last edited:
Phuncz said:
I get the reason why you'd want to increase the size to accomodate a few more PSU's but let's see what it would REALLY accomplish.
You can get to fit the following:
- Silverstone ST50F-P 500W
- Corsair CX430M 430W (only 1 PCI-e plug!)
Click to expand...

What about the ST65S-G? 140mm depth, 650W gold rated, modular, good reviews.
 
Sorry, can't find any PSU with that name.

EDIT: Never mind, it's the Silverstone ST65F-G. It's possible I guess. Just still don't see the point as you'd not be able to fit the hardware that's required to actually use it.
 
Last edited:
wonderfield said:
Same. There are reasonable modular options for ATX PSUs and there's at least one good SFF PSU that's ample for a Titan. I don't see a pressing need to enlarge what is intended to be a small case to handle extreme edge cases.
Click to expand...
The case as it is now cannot fit modular ATX PSUs with a long GPU. I'm not sure why people still have this misconception - it's stated clearly in the specs. Non-modular, 140mm long max ATX PSUs only.

Phuncz said:
I get the reason why you'd want to increase the size to accomodate a few more PSU's but let's see what it would REALLY accomplish.
You can get to fit the following:
- Silverstone ST50F-P 500W
- Corsair CX430M 430W (only 1 PCI-e plug!)

Both are 80Plus Bronze and don't exactly shine on the quality department. The only real advantage I see is that those PSU's are cheap.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I follow... do you mean what you can fit currently? Or what you could fit at +20mm? Because no modular ATX will fit currently. At +20mm though, there are a lot more options than that. Corsair has semi-modular 140mm units up to 750W, and SilverStone has modular gold-rated units up to 650W.

Phuncz said:
It just seems ridiculous to me. Most modular PSU's sit at about 160mm depth so you'd need to add atleast 40mm on this case to be able to include them.
Click to expand...
Adding +20mm would make the total distance 170mm between the PSU bracket and the top of the GPU, which is enough for a 140mm modular PSU.

This is about making an ATX PSU a viable option - without requiring that people cut/mod the cables to use one, which is essentially the case currently.
 
Necere said:
Corsair has semi-modular 140mm units up to 750W, and SilverStone has modular gold-rated units up to 650W.
Click to expand...
OK seem to have missed those. Edited my post to reflect this info.

Necere said:
This is about making an ATX PSU a viable option - without requiring that people cut/mod the cables to use one, which is essentially the case currently.
Click to expand...
I understand your point but I don't see this matter all that much. Most people will need to go to another PSU anyway with this case (as with many mITX cases), so why include a few more options for a PSU ? There have been so many discussions here already why a PSU beyond 450W is actually not that big of a deal.

I get it you want to cater to as much people as possible but it's an endless and tiring endeavour. People will always mod cases and will always go beyond the specs. That's something you can't do anything about.
 
So basically, the only ATX PSU that will fit are 140mm non-modular ones, which has been tested to cramp up the case with wires. Which begs the question of whether ATX should be supported in the first place. Hence the need for a height increase. And the top fan since for a custom water loop the back fan will be taken...
 
I would hate it to make it taller only because of fitting more atx psi, but it would be fine if it is necessary to transport the heated air out of the case with the support of an 140 fan in the top of the case.

BUT please not only for atx psu's ... Who needs bigger psu's should buy ss or bitfenix. I take part of the funding etc because of that small case and not because i want a big case like the prodigy and put totally small hardware in it.

Pro - for 140 fan if needed!!!
 
I'd be very surprised if any top mounted "exhaust" fan was needed. Unlike with 30+ liter cases, one or two 120mm fans can provide plenty of fresh air and reach every corner.
 
I was initially very sure I didn't want the size increase, then reasonably sure I did.

I'ma wait for thermal test results. :)
 
crABtoad said:
Having a backers-only vote is probably the most democratic way to handle it.

How long 'til you get thermal testing done? Really interested in the results.
Click to expand...

As I tried to imply before with Jeff Atwood's blog post, this project is not a democracy.
Those who backed the project knew ahead of time that the designers might make changes to better accommodate the design goals and needs. We're backing designers and project goals, not specific measurements.

If the designers decide that they must have more space for better thermals it is entirely their decision.

They should certainly solicit feedback from the community, but they absolutely should not be bound by it.
 
I'm not sure backers-only is a good thing. There are plenty of people (myself included) who simply didn't hear about this case until the campaign had ended. I would have backed quite a bit to this if I'd known about it in time, and I'm virtually 100% sure I'll be ordering at least one during the production campaign. Perhaps backers and posters in this thread? (Though that could just be nothing but a logistical nightmare).
 
*Daedalus said:
I'm not sure backers-only is a good thing.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Zangmonkey. It's not a democratic process, it's a poll to judge the reaction to increasing the height of the case. Not everyone's "vote" need be counted, all it needs to be is broadly representative of the opinion of their target market.
 
Necere said:
The case as it is now cannot fit modular ATX PSUs with a long GPU. I'm not sure why people still have this misconception - it's stated clearly in the specs.
Click to expand...
I didn't say it could. Read the post again:
There are reasonable modular options for ATX PSUs and there's at least one good SFF PSU that's ample for a Titan.
Click to expand...
 
*Daedalus said:
Perhaps backers and posters in this thread? (Though that could just be nothing but a logistical nightmare).
Click to expand...

I believe forum members (non-backers) also voted on our last poll. Nothing stopping you from doing so.

I started this thread wanting something SG05 or smaller, so I'm also in the no dimension increase camp.
 
The impressiveness of this case is that its the epitome of space optimization. A SFX PSU can power graphics cards up to the GTX Titan. I dare say that most people will buy cards with lower or similar power consumption to the titan. If your part of the very small percentage of people who desire to buy a card like the gtx 690 for this case, then I think you can mod your own psu cables (no offense intended).
 
Last edited:
cookiePlant said:
The impressiveness of this case is that its the epitome of space optimization. A SFX PSU can power graphics cards up the GTX Titan. I dare say that most post people will buy cards with lower or similar power consumption to the titan. If your part of the very small percentage of people who desire to buy a card like the gtx 690 for this case, then I think you can mod your own psu cables (no offense intended).
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
I have already searched all off my new components together for this case! I know 20mm isn't that much, so don't really care. this will be my first SFF build so everything will be smaller.

I'm really looking forward for the production campain! Have a great time testing this prototype guys!

New specs:
- Intel Core i7 3770S (bit lower frequency than the 3770K, but also lower TDP: less heat)
- Gigabyte GA-Z77N-WIFI
- Corsair Vengeance LP CML16GX3M2A1600C9
- Silverstone SST-ST45SF-G (450W) (and yes, i'm thinking about modding the fan)
- Samsung 840 series Pro 256GB
- No extra graphics card, don't need it - i'm not a gamer
 
cookiePlant said:
The impressiveness of this case is that its the epitome of space optimization. A SFX PSU can power graphics cards up the GTX Titan. I dare say that most post people will buy cards with lower or similar power consumption to the titan. If your part of the very small percentage of people who desire to buy a card like the gtx 690 for this case, then I think you can mod your own psu cables (no offense intended).
Click to expand...

+1

I totally agree
 
I'm definitely in the "smaller is better" crew as well. My interest in this case would be to run an ST45SF-G (modded or not), GTX Titan (maybe), CLC cooler, mPCIE to PCIE x1 adapter, ASUS Essence STX, and a Samsung 840 Pro...

It's a tricky thing to consider cranking up the size for some folk... On one hand it allows them to use some modular ATX PSUs, and have more room in general for standard ATX PSUs... These same folks could mod the cables for sure, but options are options I guess.

ATX compatibility was something added in later on the design (as someone has pointed out recently), and I think it's coming back to haunt.

I'm okay with waiting on thermal performance and going from there, but I don't have any personal need in making the case any bigger. It's actually slightly larger than the SG05, but the 3rd expansion slot and the versatility of the case put it higher up on my list of cool ITX cases.
 
crABtoad said:
I'm definitely in the "smaller is better" crew as well. My interest in this case would be to run an ST45SF-G (modded or not), GTX Titan (maybe), CLC cooler, mPCIE to PCIE x1 adapter, ASUS Essence STX, and a Samsung 840 Pro...

It's a tricky thing to consider cranking up the size for some folk... On one hand it allows them to use some modular ATX PSUs, and have more room in general for standard ATX PSUs... These same folks could mod the cables for sure, but options are options I guess.

ATX compatibility was something added in later on the design (as someone has pointed out recently), and I think it's coming back to haunt.

I'm okay with waiting on thermal performance and going from there, but I don't have any personal need in making the case any bigger. It's actually slightly larger than the SG05, but the 3rd expansion slot and the versatility of the case put it higher up on my list of cool ITX cases.
Click to expand...

I'm in a similar boat to you, except I'm planning on adding the Titan/780/whatever in the loop as well, and using my own water cooling parts. The only reason I'd be alright with the expansion is not so much for the exhaust fan, but more for the added room of being able to squeeze a reservoir internally somewhere, and/or route cables.

Again though, I agree that this decision should be left until after thermal testing has been conducted.
 
IMO, people are driving this far away from reality. Let's crunch some numbers:

-Case $200
-GTX690 or Titan: $1000
-mobo: $150
-cpu: $200
-drives: $200
-ram: $100

Total: $1850

Are you telling me that when you plan to drop almost 2 grand on a computer, you can't pay somebody to mod your ATX psu in order to cut the wires to the needed lenght? Really? The problem comes when you plan to use a modular psu... so, the only thing that you need to do is find a good non-modular ATX psu with a 140mm depth and ask somebody to mod it to your needs (still, it isn't like the SFX psu's won't have too long cables or anything). All in all, I see no reason for the height increase, and if you plan to expend that much money, adding $100 for modding the psu is just a 5% on the total budget which is, actually, nothing.

----

Relating thermals in the case, there are a few things to factor:

a) Making the case taller solves nothing. Why? The reason to make it taller is so that you can use your ATX modular psu in there but, then, you are blocking a fan intake on the side, and with only 20mm in height increase, a normal 25mm fan won't fit either, and will probably ruin the top panel of the case since you will have to make the holes for the screws...

b) Any blower-style vga will work fine... but I'm not sure about any other style of coolers. The reason is fairly simple: blower style cards get the air where the power connectors sit, and exhaust the heat outside the case. They actually work as an exhaust for the fan. On the other hand, any other model of cooling will dump heat inside the case, and because the case is so cramped in there, that heat might be recirculating on the case, end up on the psu, or something else.

c) If you use 2 120mm fan as intakes on the sides, you will never have thermal problems. since you are pushing fresh air everywhere (ram, mobo, cpu, psu and vga), and you are creating positive pressure on the whole case, which means that dust will be as controlled as it might be.

So, the only chance for this case to work properly is:

a) Use your 2 side fans.
b) Use a blower-style vga.
c) Do not use an ATX psu.

Just keep in mind that as efficient as a GTX690 might be, half the heat its creating will end up at the front of the case, and you have no chance to exhaust it over there. It will either get into your psu, get into the vga again, or any similar thing.

Along all of this, we have no idea what Silverstone has in the works regarding SFX psu's. They might do a 500W version, or improve the noise on their nowadays 450W gold one. We simply don't know.

All in all: making it bigger solves nothing. Thermals will never be good with a non-blower style card... and, precisely, those cards are the most power hungry ones.

PS: you could also use a 90/92mm fan... on the outside of the case. Not the most elegant solution, but the case will never be pretty on the back with all those cables over there so, why not?
 
Might be better to poll for whether people will be using GPU that exceeds the capacity of a SFX PSU or not. You get people who want their PSU to be 2x that of their maximum load because they misunderstand the maximum efficiency thing.
 
cookiePlant said:
The impressiveness of this case is that its the epitome of space optimization. A SFX PSU can power graphics cards up to the GTX Titan. I dare say that most people will buy cards with lower or similar power consumption to the titan. If your part of the very small percentage of people who desire to buy a card like the gtx 690 for this case, then I think you can mod your own psu cables (no offense intended).
Click to expand...

yep -- I would hate to see a size increase on this case push it towards the fatbody side of ITX

Modding cables should be a skill that all SFF enthusiasts should have (kind of like changing the oil / flat tire on a car).
 
i'm also in for keeping the size as is. i've always believed someone like silverstone, etc would make a higher wattage sfx
 
forumator said:
It's not a big deal but every inch (or .78 of an inch) does matter when the mantra is smaller is better.
Click to expand...

maybe, but some people are acting a little crazy. one guy a couple pages back said something like "if it increases by 20mm i am out!!'. thats kind of absurd to threaten not to buy one over something so trivial as 20mm
 
I am in for 2, maybe 3, with the added 20mm or without.

I doubt keeping it the same or increasing it 20mm is going to effect sales.

A suggestion for another future project would be a mitx based server, that can hold as many 10 3.5" hdds. Sorta like a modded Q25 except better looking and no modifications required to fit 10 HDDS. Not sure if there would be enough people to support it though.
 
Last edited:
cowsgomoo said:
Might be better to poll for whether people will be using GPU that exceeds the capacity of a SFX PSU or not. You get people who want their PSU to be 2x that of their maximum load because they misunderstand the maximum efficiency thing.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. If there is going to be a poll, the way the question is asked is CRUCIAL to the proper results. I'm not saying Necere and Wahaha360 don't know about this, but I'm just putting this out as a general advice.

People first need to be pointed out what the potential problem is now (limited to ATX non-modular 140mm depth) and what it would be when addressed (limited to ATX non-mod 160mm or ATX modular 140mm).

But people should also be informed about, for instance, that long cables are going to be a problem in both options when reaching the maximum specification. People should also be informed that the 450W SFX PSU can power a Core i7-3770/4770 with a Geforce Titan on stock levels and that a 300W PSU is more than enough for an i7 + single PCI-e connector GPU.

Circleing back to the polls issue, an example on how you shouldn't ask opinions:

Question: Do you think the M1 case should be 20mm higher so you can fit more ATX PSU models ?
- yes, I definitely want to use an ATX PSU
- yes, but I'm going to use an SFX PSU
- no, my ATX PSU will fit
- no, I'm going to use an SFX PSU
- don't care

The problem with that poll would be that most people will vote "yes" because the question clearly paints it as the only "good" answer, ATX being good, SFX being bad.

Or another bad example:

Question: Should we make the case 20mm larger so you have more flexibility ?
- yes, I'd like more room
- yes, my PSU won't fit otherwise
- maybe, I'm not sure
- no, the smallest cases are the best
- no, all my stuff fits in the case I think

Too much "feelings" and wishes in the options, these generally also have a less pronounced "good" answer.

In my opinion the question that should be asked is:

Question: Do you think the power supply limitations are a problem for your build ?
- yes, my prefered option isn't going to fit
- I'm not sure if my PSU will fit
- no, my choice should fit according to the specs

Why ? Because it states the problem (limitations on the PSU), it inquires if the voter has knowledge or not (option 1 and 3 = yes, option 2 = no) to determine if we need to educate/warn/instruct the people interested in this case more. It also very clear: no iffy feelings-poll and just to-the-point so you don't have to worry your voters won't read it properly.

EDIT: I release now my post is huge, sorry about that...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top