New home, new network advice needed.

I just purchased my fist home....yay. I am wanting to drop Cat5E in each room where there wired devices such as PS3, Xbox, etc.

My setup in my apartment currently is a Cisco Valet M10 running DD-WRT. While this will work fine for the typical user, when I am streaming HD-Video from my PC to my PS3 over wireless it chokes the connection or stutters and will not play at all. I would usually just hook the laptop up via HDMI and play it that way.

In my home I'd prefer not to have to do that. I have looked for some wireless AC routers that offer 8 or so GE ports, but see none available. Could I use my current M10 coupled with a D-Link 8 port GE switch for what I am trying to accomplish? I'd like to do 2 drops to each room. (Living room, 3 Bedrooms, and office). The 8 port would get me by until I needed to expand. The only devices I have now that would be wired would be 2 PCs, an Xbox, a PS3, and a BluRay player.

So my question is, the best Wireless router for the home, or wireless router + a switch?

Should I just run all the wires to keystone jacks and use patch cables to a switch or run them to a patch panel in a closet or something?

Thanks in advance.

-Ryan

Do you have a one story or two story? Will you be terminating all of the wiring and placing the router/modem in the same location?

One story, and yes, router and cable modem in same location.

why not use Cat6? the price difference between 5e and 6 on monoprice would be well worth it IMO.

I already had a box with probably 800 feet left in it from doing my parents home. I can get some 6, but it seems 5 would serve my needs fine. But faster is always better, but I don't have any equipment that would support 10gbps currently.

CAT5e Supports 10GbE as well.

Looks like Cat5E it is. Any reccomendations for a wireless router so I do not ahve to use an external switch?

RocketTech said:

CAT5e Supports 10GbE as well.

Click to expand...

100% incorrect.

Keep in mind that run in spec everything in the entire chain has to be compliant: that includes cable, terminations, ends, plugs, sockets and all mating connectors.

http://www.howtogeek.com/70494/what-kind-of-ethernet-cat-5e6a-cable-should-i-use/

Cat5 is certified to run:
100 meters at 100Mb, allowing 3 meters of patch cable additionally at the end
45 meters at 1Gb, allowing 3 meters of patch cable additionally at the end.

Cat5e is certified to run:
100 meters at 1Gb, allowing 3 meters of patch cable additionally at the end
Cat5e is not certified to run at 10Gb for any distance. (That does not mean it won't work, that just means its not certified)

Cat6 is also certified to run:
100 meters at 1Gb, allowing 3 meters of patch cable additionally at the end
45 meters at 10Gb, allowing 3 meters of patch cable additionally at the end.

Cat6a is also certified to run:
100 meters at 10Gb, allowing 3 meters of patch cable additionally at the end
25 meters at 40Gb is being reviewed, but testing indicates extremely tight tolerances requirements may invalidate the option....much like what occurred with Cat5

Cat7 was designed with 40Gbe in mind, but as there are no copper based devices in the channel there is no pressure to pursue certification

Mackintire said:

100% incorrect.

Click to expand...

I'll see your HowToGeek and raise you the actual standard:

From Wikipedia:

10GBASE-T

10GBASE-T, or IEEE 802.3an-2006, is a standard released in 2006 to provide 10 Gbit/s connections over unshielded or shielded twisted pair cables, over distances up to 100 metres (330 ft).[25] Although category 6a is required to reach the full 100 metres (330 ft), category 5e is good for up to 45 metres (148 ft) and category 6 will reach 55 metres (180 ft).

RocketTech said:

I'll see your HowToGeek and raise you the actual standard:

From Wikipedia:

10GBASE-T

10GBASE-T, or IEEE 802.3an-2006, is a standard released in 2006 to provide 10 Gbit/s connections over unshielded or shielded twisted pair cables, over distances up to 100 metres (330 ft).[25] Although category 6a is required to reach the full 100 metres (330 ft), category 5e is good for up to 45 metres (148 ft) and category 6 will reach 55 metres (180 ft).

Click to expand...

Yup. Running a 10G link on some test equipment in my office right now over a standard monoprice cat5 cable

schnell said:

Yup. Running a 10G link on some test equipment in my office right now over a standard monoprice cat5 cable

Click to expand...

And you are still running out of spec for 802.3an-2006 according to the wikipedia listing.

I'm calling shens on the wiki listing. footnote 26 which is tied to the cat5e claim is this page:
http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/blog/2011/12/15/10gbaset-can-this-be-run-over-cat5e/


I had to dig hard to find what I was looking for but here's the result:

Operation on other classes of cabling (for example, Class D/Category 5e) is sup-
ported if the cabling meets the 10GBASE-T link segment specifications or the alien
crosstalk margin computation.


The problem is just because the cable is labled cat5e does not mean that it can consistently meet the crosstalk rejection requirements. Some cat5e does, some does not. But the 45 meter comment is 100% BS.

But don't believe me... read it " cat6 and cat6a is mentioned, but not cat5e http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.html

Or how about from the cable manufacturer's themselves: http://www.belden.com/pdfs/techpprs/10gbase_t2.pdf


Just because you can...does not mean that it is a "certified" or supported configuration.


I submitted a request for correction to wikipedia...we'll see what they do.

What you could do is attach one larger switch to the wireless router, or even two or three smaller switches to the router. If you turn off the wireless and dhcp server, and don't plug into the internet port, the wireless router essentially becomes a switch with QOS that you can turn off. In my case, I wanted to create some isolation via vlans so I added a managed switch and my wireless access points connect to the managed switch.

I've fairly recently converted to a pfSense router at home and find a vast improvement in performance and reliability compared to any wireless or wired router I've used up to this point. I happened to have an Atom that I wasn't using, so it was a nobrainer for me. One more note, I just recently updated my cable modem as well. I find with the changes Comcast made and the new sb6141, my throughput for downloads is approximately 150% of what it was and now 30-32K. One note, when you call Comcast to activate, make sure you mention that you don't want to change your plan...unless you really do. They'll assume you want to use the new modems full capability.

jimh425 said:

I find with the changes Comcast made and the new sb6141, my throughput for downloads is approximately 150% of what it was and now 30-32K. One note, when you call Comcast to activate, make sure you mention that you don't want to change your plan...unless you really do. They'll assume you want to use the new modems full capability.

Click to expand...

I have a 6141 as well, but have the "Performance" Internet which is still 25mb only. I will be trying to upgrade to the "Blast" 50Mb service at a promo rate when I move in 2 weeks.


Also its looking like I need to setup like this...

SB6141<-New Wireless Router, DHCP off<-GE Switch plugged into new wireless routers GE Port<-Devices plugged into switch?

Mackintire said:

And you are still running out of spec for 802.3an-2006 according to the wikipedia listing.

I'm calling shens on the wiki listing. footnote 26 which is tied to the cat5e claim is this page:
http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/blog/2011/12/15/10gbaset-can-this-be-run-over-cat5e/


I had to dig hard to find what I was looking for but here's the result:

Operation on other classes of cabling (for example, Class D/Category 5e) is sup-
ported if the cabling meets the 10GBASE-T link segment specifications or the alien
crosstalk margin computation.


The problem is just because the cable is labled cat5e does not mean that it can consistently meet the crosstalk rejection requirements. Some cat5e does, some does not. But the 45 meter comment is 100% BS.

But don't believe me... read it " cat6 and cat6a is mentioned, but not cat5e http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.html

Or how about from the cable manufacturer's themselves: http://www.belden.com/pdfs/techpprs/10gbase_t2.pdf


Just because you can...does not mean that it is a "certified" or supported configuration.


I submitted a request for correction to wikipedia...we'll see what they do.

Click to expand...

or just to simplify the argument....it's ~100 bucks for 1000ft of CMR Cat6....dont cheap out and most installations are geared up for the next 10 years. (for comparison, monoprice shows ~75-80 for 1000ft 5e riser) spend the extra 25 bucks on the cable. accessories, keystones etc are pennies difference by now. rest assured that your home network is capable of anything you want to throw at it. if you "need" 10gb at the house, you're doing it wrong

B1zz said:

or just to simplify the argument....it's ~100 bucks for 1000ft of CMR Cat6....dont cheap out and most installations are geared up for the next 10 years. (for comparison, monoprice shows ~75-80 for 1000ft 5e riser) spend the extra 25 bucks on the cable. accessories, keystones etc are pennies difference by now. rest assured that your home network is capable of anything you want to throw at it. if you "need" 10gb at the house, you're doing it wrong

Click to expand...

Well with that argument, you are still wrong, as 10GbE is not fully supported on CAT6 either- you need CAT6A.
At any rate, the wiki war on 10GbE over CAT5E seems to be bringing up alot of misinformation; or at least revealing poor reading/comprehension skills.

I'm calling shens on the wiki listing. footnote 26 which is tied to the cat5e claim is this page:
http://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/b...un-over-cat5e/

Click to expand...

Not sure why you object to the source... is it more or less reputable than HowToGeek? But whatever, I'll give it to you.

I had to dig hard to find what I was looking for but here's the result:

Operation on other classes of cabling (for example, Class D/Category 5e) is sup-
ported if the cabling meets the 10GBASE-T link segment specifications or the alien
crosstalk margin computation.

Click to expand...

This is exactly why I push cable qualification/certification testing after installation so hard. But for those that have a roll of CAT5e, check the test for electrical performance/noise performance/whatever and see if they test to 250MHz or better. 10GbE for 100 meters requires Class E cable, which is tested to a minimum of 250MHz. Class D, for reference, is tested to 100MHz. Most decent quality CAT5E is tested to 350MHz, making this major objection somewhat moot. The comments about cable quality are valid, but I am no fan of MonoPrice as a source of cable and I would be very surprised if all of their CAT5e did not meet 250MHz.
Alien Crosstalk (the subject at issue in the quote above) is dependant on NEXT (Near-End CrossTalk) and FEXT (Far-End CrossTalk) and proximity to other cables. NEXT and FEXT on good quality cables is pretty darn good (all of the CAT5 and better cable I've tested have never failed NEXT or FEXT without failing a physical test). Proximity to other cables as it affects Alien Crosstalk can be handled in a number of ways, such as twist ratios, cable separators, thicker jackets, foil shield, length cable is run in a bundle, etc. There is no replacement for cable qualification/certification after installation, but if you follow the standards, I'd be very surprised if you didn't qualify for 10GbE.

But don't believe me... read it " cat6 and cat6a is mentioned, but not cat5e http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.html

Click to expand...

Dunno if you read those rules; they are subscription access only. Poor form, makes me wonder if you actually read them. They are also not the standard quoted, being earlier versions of IEEE 802.3an-2006.

Or how about from the cable manufacturer's themselves: http://www.belden.com/pdfs/techpprs/10gbase_t2.pdf

Click to expand...

Well first off, I'm sure the cable manufacturers are not interested at all in selling replacement cable for all the CAT5 /5e out there. Page 37 of the document linked (found it in the TOC) begins the section in question; page 38 lists the minimum requirements for 10GbE copper media; all of the specifications applicable to physical cable are met by better quality CAT5e.

In short, nothing refutes the Wikipedia article, nor does it refute the IEEE 802.3an-2006 standard.

Finally, Qualification/Certification of installed cable is the final arbiter.

For all those proposing CAT6 over CAT5e for future-proofing and citing the low cost difference- CAT6 does not meet the standard for 100 meter 10GbE- You need CAT6a, which monoprice does not even carry in bulk- and it is quite a bit more expensive.

Can we get back to helping the OP now?

Normally wireless routers are not very popular. You have the benefit of only needing one device, but then if that one device fails then your entire network is dead in the water. It would be better to get a decent router, decent switch, and decent wireless AP.

wizdum said:

Can we get back to helping the OP now?

Normally wireless routers are not very popular. You have the benefit of only needing one device, but then if that one device fails then your entire network is dead in the water. It would be better to get a decent router, decent switch, and decent wireless AP.

Click to expand...

Can you please provide an example? I design and implement WAN's all day, but when it comes to doing my home I've no clue. I mean, technically it would be nice to have my own Calix E7 serving my home, or even an ALU 7750...but I'm still poor.

I'm slightly confused. You 1) bought a new one story home, 2) going to drop cat5e, but 3) are still using wireless for high bandwidth applications like HD video on a PS3 wirelessly? Why again?

In terms of what to get, consider something from UniFi http://www.ubnt.com/unifi which have a good track record, aren't crazy expensive, and look pretty (imo) too.

If you want wireless you need to get a bridge for the PS3 as it doesn't do 11n otherwise you can pretty much forget about HD (at least streaming transcoded in MPEG2).
//Danne

FrostBite said:

I'm slightly confused. You 1) bought a new one story home, 2) going to drop cat5e, but 3) are still using wireless for high bandwidth applications like HD video on a PS3 wirelessly? Why again?

In terms of what to get, consider something from UniFi http://www.ubnt.com/unifi which have a good track record, aren't crazy expensive, and look pretty (imo) too.

Click to expand...

Negative. The purpose of running wireless is for phones, laptops, etc.

My current setup I have in my apt is 4 eth cords plugged into my Cisco M10 wireless router. In the new home there will be more than four devices, hence bringing in the switch.

So with a wireless AP such as this I would just connect this to the switch and it would allow access to the network?

SilentLunatic said:

Can you please provide an example? I design and implement WAN's all day, but when it comes to doing my home I've no clue. I mean, technically it would be nice to have my own Calix E7 serving my home, or even an ALU 7750...but I'm still poor.

Click to expand...

I don't use an all in one unit myself, I have been running PFSense as my router/firewall, with a gigabit switch, and Ubiquiti Unifi wireless AP. I have heard good things about the Asus wireless routers though. Can't name a model, but someone here probably can.

The last time I tried to buy a good wireless router, I picked up a Dlink "gaming" router that had all the firewall and routing options I needed. It cost about $300. Then they released a firmware update that made the wireless radio shut down every 10 minutes, and require a restart to get it up and running again.

For the Unifi, you pretty much just plug it into an open port on your switch and let it go. It has a configuration utility that you need to install and run on a PC to manage the AP. It has some nice features if you run it all the time (on a server), but the software is not required after you complete the initial configuration.

Well, if you're willing to hack somewhat I'd have a look at a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter Lite as main firewall, you can also run FreeBSD on this little box apparently but I'm not sure what performance you'll get or just use the original firmware. At least it's quite a bit faster than Atheros SoCs from what I'm been told. Use your current switch and get a TL-WDR3600 which essentially is the same hardware (actually I think the hw is the gen after what Unifi uses) and but that one in bridge mode using OpenWRT so it essentially works as an AP. The WDR4300 is the same hardware except that you'll get a 3TR3 radio instead of a 2TR2, very few devices actually have a 3TR3 radio so its pretty pointless. But as I said, the PS3 still wont be able to stream reliable above ~15mbit due to the fact that it uses 11g. The only thing you would be enhanching is the ability to run a 5Ghz which does in general have better throughput if you have a lot of networks around you but suffers from poorer range. FWIW My phone gets decent signal quality on the floor below pretty much directly under the AP (concrete ceiling/floor) while my laptop isn't affected much. As much as I love pf's syntax getting pfsense at home is usually way overkill, you can pretty much to all packet filtering using Linux like OpenWRT on a SoC-platform but it might be more tricky in worst case but the web frontend will help you a lot if you're not used to OpenWRT.

In summary:

A fun network to play with and possible able to run FreeBSD if you prefer pf's syntax and the other stuff FreeBSD offers or just use the shipped firmware...
Ubiquiti EdgeRouter Lite + Current switch + TP-Link TL-WDR3600 (as AP)

...and a little cheaper solution if you're fine with your current router/firewall.

Current router + Current switch + TP-Link TL-WDR3600 (as additional AP)

If you still want your PS3 wireless you can purchase another TP-Link and set it up as a wireless client (see wiki.openwrt.org for instructions).

//Danne