IPS Monitors for Gaming

Master_Pain

Supreme [H]ardness
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Looking around for new monitors for myself. Looking to get 2 - 24" 1920x1200 monitors.

I play a lot of BF3, so something that won't ghost on me is a must.

Suggestions?
 
I would recommend either the U2312HM or U2412M. Both have low input lag and low ms response times. I own the 23" and can vouch it's seemingly just as fast as my old Samsung TN which was a 2ms monitor. You can trust me since I'm very anal when it comes to motion, delay, and color (graphic designer/FPS gamer).
 
Be mindful of terminology. What people think of as ghosting isn't the main contributor to motion blur anymore (maybe never was AFAIK). That means lowering pixel response times only goes so far. All conventional sample-and-hold displays (including LCDs) appear blurry when your eyes are tracking a moving image. That causes most of the perceived blur on LCDs. The only ways around that is with higher refresh rates (like with 120hz displays) or by strobing the backlight (limited to Lightboost monitors currently).
 
I am stilling using a circa 2005 Dell 2005FPW, even it doesnt ghost.
That was a great monitor back in the day. Mine has been used daily for 7 years and keeps going strong.


Be mindful of terminology. What people think of as ghosting isn't the main contributor to motion blur anymore (maybe never was AFAIK). That means lowering pixel response times only goes so far. All conventional sample-and-hold displays (including LCDs) appear blurry when your eyes are tracking a moving image. That causes most of the perceived blur on LCDs. The only ways around that is with higher refresh rates (like with 120hz displays) or by strobing the backlight (limited to Lightboost monitors currently).
Truth. But, regarding the tradeoff between smearing and flickering, everyone is picking their own poison. I would never voluntarily get a backlight-strobing display, unless the frequency was crazy high (e.g. 600Hz). Even back in the CRT days, I was running 19" monitors in 1024x768 just to get 100Hz refresh rate, and from what I read CRT flicker was easier on the eyes than full-screen strobing.
 
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Perceptibility of flicker on zero-blur Lightboost and CRTs should be very similar at similar refresh rates. Mark Rejhon has said that flicker has more to do with the strobing frequency (which is 120 times per sec on Lightboost) than with the length of each strobe, so a Lighboost monitor with the zero-blur enabled should look like a CRT @ 120hz flicker-wise. And this bears out from most of the comments I've read in the Lighboost thread.
 
Looking around for new monitors for myself. Looking to get 2 - 24" 1920x1200 monitors.

I play a lot of BF3, so something that won't ghost on me is a must.

Suggestions?

why not get one 30 inch panel, I did and loving it, very immersive gaming, colors are fantastic no issues with gaming using an nvidia 670 card from gigabyte
 
I prefer the HP 27 and 30 inch IPS's due to lack of scaler, which resorts in less input lag overall. The newest revision of the ZR2740w (v2) has the lowest input lag of any 1440p display according to TFT @ 3.6ms. Can't beat that. A lot of people will recommend the U2412M but to my knowledge the AG coating is more aggressive than the HP's.
 
The only one I'd consider for gaming would be the 120hz - 133hz overclockable korean ips, which like all high hz monitors can benefit from much increased motion tracking at very high fps (more dots per dotted line length per se) - but they would still have worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn, and 10ms+ response times. According to markR, only around 15% of blur is response time though, the rest is retinal retention blur... which is why lightboost2 tech is so appealing. The backlight flash conversely blanks out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of the frame, showing a pristine "snapshot" of the frame in a 1ms+ backlight flash during each frame. At 100hz & 100fps , or better yet 120hz and 120fps, flickering should not be a problem for most people. It is also different than the way CRTs draw, and MarkR has a post in the main lightboost2 thread showing equivalencies at very different refresh rates lcd vs crt.
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I'm hoping to get a lightboost2 monitor later after the gtx 780's come out and I upgrade my gpu. Hopefully a glossy one will come out or I could try removing the ag coating like vega has been shooting for in his removal thread. Zero blur gaming is awesome and I'm looking fwd to it on an lcd. If you've never played on a graphics profressonal fw900 crt at higher hz (again, crt hz is not percieved the same as lcd hz though) you really can't compare most other crt's for overall quality imo.
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Anything with a scaler, aggressive AG, or sub 120hz input is out of the running for gaming in 2013 in my opinion. IPS still have 10ms+ response times too, and obviously don't have a lightboost2 or equivalent scanning backlight tech available currently. I keep a nice high ppi ips right next to my gaming monitor(s) though,for everything outside of gaming.
 
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The only one I'd consider for gaming would be the 120hz - 133hz overclockable korean ips, which like all high hz monitors can benefit from much increased motion tracking at very high fps (more dots per dotted line length per se) - but they would still have worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn, and 10ms+ response times. According to markR, only around 15% of blur is response time though, the rest is retinal retention blur... which is why lightboost2 tech is so appealing. The backlight flash conversely blanks out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of the frame, showing a pristine "snapshot" of the frame in a 1ms+ backlight flash during each frame. At 100hz & 100fps , or better yet 120hz and 120fps, flickering should not be a problem for most people. It is also different than the way CRTs draw, and MarkR has a post in the main lightboost2 thread showing equivalencies at very different refresh rates lcd vs crt.
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I'm hoping to get a lightboost2 monitor later after the gtx 780's come out and I upgrade my gpu. Hopefully a glossy one will come out or I could try removing the ag coating like vega has been shooting for in his removal thread. Zero blur gaming is awesome and I'm looking fwd to it on an lcd. If you've never played on a graphics profressonal fw900 crt at higher hz (again, crt hz is not percieved the same as lcd hz though) you really can't compare most other crt's for overall quality imo.
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Anything with a scaler, aggressive AG, or sub 120hz input is out of the running for gaming in 2013 in my opinion. IPS still have 10ms+ response times too, and obviously don't have a lightboost2 or equivalent scanning backlight tech available currently. I keep a nice high ppi ips right next to my gaming monitor(s) though,for everything outside of gaming.


Isnt 120 hz more of a gimmick than anything? blind studies show few people who can tell a difference. 120hz 240hz, you'll be getting 60hz video.
 
The only one I'd consider for gaming would be the 120hz - 133hz overclockable korean ips, which like all high hz monitors can benefit from much increased motion tracking at very high fps (more dots per dotted line length per se) - but they would still have worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn, and 10ms+ response times. According to markR, only around 15% of blur is response time though, the rest is retinal retention blur... which is why lightboost2 tech is so appealing. The backlight flash conversely blanks out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of the frame, showing a pristine "snapshot" of the frame in a 1ms+ backlight flash during each frame. At 100hz & 100fps , or better yet 120hz and 120fps, flickering should not be a problem for most people. It is also different than the way CRTs draw, and MarkR has a post in the main lightboost2 thread showing equivalencies at very different refresh rates lcd vs crt.
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I'm hoping to get a lightboost2 monitor later after the gtx 780's come out and I upgrade my gpu. Hopefully a glossy one will come out or I could try removing the ag coating like vega has been shooting for in his removal thread. Zero blur gaming is awesome and I'm looking fwd to it on an lcd. If you've never played on a graphics profressonal fw900 crt at higher hz (again, crt hz is not percieved the same as lcd hz though) you really can't compare most other crt's for overall quality imo.
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Anything with a scaler, aggressive AG, or sub 120hz input is out of the running for gaming in 2013 in my opinion. IPS still have 10ms+ response times too, and obviously don't have a lightboost2 or equivalent scanning backlight tech available currently. I keep a nice high ppi ips right next to my gaming monitor(s) though,for everything outside of gaming.



Current IPS panels have 7ms response time. I game all day long on a 60hz 30 inch IPS panels with no problems whatsoever.
 
I would recommend either the U2312HM or U2412M. Both have low input lag and low ms response times. I own the 23" and can vouch it's seemingly just as fast as my old Samsung TN which was a 2ms monitor. You can trust me since I'm very anal when it comes to motion, delay, and color (graphic designer/FPS gamer).

I second this. I game on a U2412M and enjoy it.

why not get one 30 inch panel, I did and loving it, very immersive gaming, colors are fantastic no issues with gaming using an nvidia 670 card from gigabyte

Probably because of how F'ing expensive they are. Even a good 27" (non-Korean) will set you back $650 at a minimum. You can get two U2412M and be under or around that price, depending on if it's on sale. I bought both of mine for around $275 each. I see now they've gone up to $340 - $350. I don't know if that's a trend for 1200p monitors or not, but I've seen other models go up in the last couple months as well.

I prefer the HP 27 and 30 inch IPS's due to lack of scaler, which resorts in less input lag overall. The newest revision of the ZR2740w (v2) has the lowest input lag of any 1440p display according to TFT @ 3.6ms. Can't beat that. A lot of people will recommend the U2412M but to my knowledge the AG coating is more aggressive than the HP's.

The AG coating is pretty aggressive. Sitting straight on, it doesn't bother me at all, but it does make the viewing angles worse then a TN screen IMO. Otherwise, aside from whites being a little dingy, it doesn't bother me. I think the colors are vibrant and the text is sharp. I also love the stand and the built in USB hub.
 
Current IPS panels have 7ms response time. I game all day long on a 60hz 30 inch IPS panels with no problems whatsoever.


If you consider less than half the motion tracking and it's related "smoothness" and accuracy (2x or more frames of more recent, unique action frames shown per second) , and more than twice the blur of 120hz TN not a problem on a gaming monitor in 2013 go for it but it would not even be worth considering in my opinion. Let alone compared to a zero FoV movement blur gaming 'viewport', and over aggressive AG tradeoff on most 30" models. If I had to suffer the blur I'd get in line for a 120hz -133hz overclockable glossy korean ips which has the increased motion tracking benefit and a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn. 60hz gaming is dead to me.
 
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Isnt 120 hz more of a gimmick than anything? blind studies show few people who can tell a difference. 120hz 240hz, you'll be getting 60hz video.

It's a gimmick on the TVs, where the TV works with 60 Hz input, waits for 2 frames to arrive, and then interpolates them to get the extra frame in between (hello input lag). If I am not mistaken, the "gaming" PC monitors actually accept 120 Hz input signal, and there is little post-processing going on so you get almost no input lag.
 
Its a big difference on a 120hz input gaming monitor. There are also 144hz input gaming monitors now. These panels also have aggressive response time compensation tech.

Considering models that don't have over-aggresive AG and don't have scalers that induce input lag to start with,
What we have now is:

60hz panels. The have a maximum "motion tracking per second" capability of 60 unique action frames shown per second if you maintain 60fps+ to feed each hz with a newer, unique action frame. They have a lot of FoV movement blur, blurring the entire viewport in a mess "outside of the lines" whenever you move your FoV. This blur obliterates architecture detail, creature detail, gorgeous high detail texture detail of modern games, "3d" depth via bump mapping and other shaders.. smearing the entire viewport.

120hz to 133hz overclockable 2560x1440 glossy ips korean monitors with certain boards in them that allow them to "overclock" to those higher hz. These monitors have greater motion tracking per second. They show 120 or more unique action frames per second as long as you maintain feeding 120fps or more to the monitor. They lack scalers and aggressive AG problems, have the gorgeous static display capabilities of a good ips screen, but still blur a little worse than 1/2 as much as a 60hz TN.

120hz to 144hz 1080p TN monitors with aggressive response time compensation. These monitors have 1/2 as much blur as a very low response time 60hz TN. They have much increased motion tracking capability and smoothness of motion (not to be confused with blur reduction) if you maintain fps equal to or higher than their hz setting. More dots per dotted line length per se (twice as many or more unique , more recent action frames shown per second than a 60hz panel, with the resulting increased accuracy and smoothness feeling).

The newest on the high speed/accuracy/smoothness gaming panel front is that some people realized you could enable the 1ms speed backlights designed for 3D gaming when you are gaming in 2D by using a workaround. This works on 144hz lightboost2 monitors using a nvidia card, running them at 100hz & 100fps+, or 120hz and 120fps+. The results of doing this are a monitor with zero LCD blur, like a professional crt. They also still have the increased motion tracking benefits when maintaining fps higher than their hz setting of course. The way the zero blur lightboost2 2D gaming works is the backlight does a synchronized 1m strobe like a pristine snapshot, conversely blanking out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of each frame before an after each strobe.

.
All of these monitor types have some tradeoffs. For gaming, motion is king imo. There are several 120hz or greater flavors to choose from at 1/2 as much blur or worse, including some limited quantities of 120hz - 133hz ips screens. For zero blur there are only a few options currently, and ips is still not fast enough to completely eliminate blur even if there were a lightboost2 ips monitor in existence. So far no ips monitor has intentionally been manufactured to accept over 60hz input though.

I can't imagine gaming on a 60hz panel now. That is going in the opposite direction for gaming as far as I'm concerned, and all of the even higher than 2560x panels due out are stuck at 60hz and likely include scalers and other lag inducing tech in them as far as I have seen.

LCD's blur badly. Even 120hz non-lightboost lcds blur a lot on FoV movement. Its just more of a full soften blur, within the shadow mask of the objects so to speak. It still wipes out all object and high detail texture detail every time you move your FoV.

Its as if some people are so used to wearing their "slushy goggles" they don't know what unblurred FoV movement looks like. I liken it to the allegory of the cave.
 
That was a great monitor back in the day. Mine has been used daily for 7 years and keeps going strong.

Its so great that several years after the first I picked up a another used by then it was out of production.

The original one I bought is so old that its bezel cracked in two places at the top(probably from being VESA mounted) and if you compare both side by side you can see that the CCFL tube in the older one isnt as good as it used to be because whites look more yellow then white.
 
It's a gimmick on the TVs, where the TV works with 60 Hz input, waits for 2 frames to arrive, and then interpolates them to get the extra frame in between (hello input lag). If I am not mistaken, the "gaming" PC monitors actually accept 120 Hz input signal, and there is little post-processing going on so you get almost no input lag.

and what about your video card? that 120 hz too????? hmmmm
 
If you consider less than half the motion tracking and it's related "smoothness" and accuracy (2x or more frames of more recent, unique action frames shown per second) , and more than twice the blur of 120hz TN not a problem on a gaming monitor in 2013 go for it but it would not even be worth considering in my opinion. Let alone compared to a zero FoV movement blur gaming 'viewport', and over aggressive AG tradeoff on most 30" models. If I had to suffer the blur I'd get in line for a 120hz -133hz overclockable glossy korean ips which has the increased motion tracking benefit and a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn. 60hz gaming is dead to me.

with proper in room lighting and proper calibration AG coating is not that big of an issue and not nearly as horrible as a glossy panel under any circumstances. try turning a light on instead of gaming in the dark????

the horrid viewing angles and colors on a TN panel far outweigh any benfit of a 120hz panel. Most people are capable of getting high enough frame rates on a 60hz panel that this is a non issue. a 120hz panel isnt going to do you any good if your graphics card cant feed it 120hz.

Yes its 2013, time to move on from TN panels boys and girls.
 
Its a big difference on a 120hz input gaming monitor. There are also 144hz input gaming monitors now. These panels also have aggressive response time compensation tech.

Considering models that don't have over-aggresive AG and don't have scalers that induce input lag to start with,
What we have now is:

60hz panels. The have a maximum "motion tracking per second" capability of 60 unique action frames shown per second if you maintain 60fps+ to feed each hz with a newer, unique action frame. They have a lot of FoV movement blur, blurring the entire viewport in a mess "outside of the lines" whenever you move your FoV. This blur obliterates architecture detail, creature detail, gorgeous high detail texture detail of modern games, "3d" depth via bump mapping and other shaders.. smearing the entire viewport.

120hz to 133hz overclockable 2560x1440 glossy ips korean monitors with certain boards in them that allow them to "overclock" to those higher hz. These monitors have greater motion tracking per second. They show 120 or more unique action frames per second as long as you maintain feeding 120fps or more to the monitor. They lack scalers and aggressive AG problems, have the gorgeous static display capabilities of a good ips screen, but still blur a little worse than 1/2 as much as a 60hz TN.

120hz to 144hz 1080p TN monitors with aggressive response time compensation. These monitors have 1/2 as much blur as a very low response time 60hz TN. They have much increased motion tracking capability and smoothness of motion (not to be confused with blur reduction) if you maintain fps equal to or higher than their hz setting. More dots per dotted line length per se (twice as many or more unique , more recent action frames shown per second than a 60hz panel, with the resulting increased accuracy and smoothness feeling).

The newest on the high speed/accuracy/smoothness gaming panel front is that some people realized you could enable the 1ms speed backlights designed for 3D gaming when you are gaming in 2D by using a workaround. This works on 144hz lightboost2 monitors using a nvidia card, running them at 100hz & 100fps+, or 120hz and 120fps+. The results of doing this are a monitor with zero LCD blur, like a professional crt. They also still have the increased motion tracking benefits when maintaining fps higher than their hz setting of course. The way the zero blur lightboost2 2D gaming works is the backlight does a synchronized 1m strobe like a pristine snapshot, conversely blanking out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of each frame before an after each strobe.

.
All of these monitor types have some tradeoffs. For gaming, motion is king imo. There are several 120hz or greater flavors to choose from at 1/2 as much blur or worse, including some limited quantities of 120hz - 133hz ips screens. For zero blur there are only a few options currently, and ips is still not fast enough to completely eliminate blur even if there were a lightboost2 ips monitor in existence. So far no ips monitor has intentionally been manufactured to accept over 60hz input though.

I can't imagine gaming on a 60hz panel now. That is going in the opposite direction for gaming as far as I'm concerned, and all of the even higher than 2560x panels due out are stuck at 60hz and likely include scalers and other lag inducing tech in them as far as I have seen.

LCD's blur badly. Even 120hz non-lightboost lcds blur a lot on FoV movement. Its just more of a full soften blur, within the shadow mask of the objects so to speak. It still wipes out all object and high detail texture detail every time you move your FoV.

Its as if some people are so used to wearing their "slushy goggles" they don't know what unblurred FoV movement looks like. I liken it to the allegory of the cave.[/QUO

WHICH IPS PANELS HAVE YOU OWNED??
 
It's a gimmick on the TVs, where the TV works with 60 Hz input, waits for 2 frames to arrive, and then interpolates them to get the extra frame in between (hello input lag). If I am not mistaken, the "gaming" PC monitors actually accept 120 Hz input signal, and there is little post-processing going on so you get almost no input lag.


definitely worth doing some research on for a definitive answer to this
 
Its a big difference on a 120hz input gaming monitor. There are also 144hz input gaming monitors now. These panels also have aggressive response time compensation tech.

Considering models that don't have over-aggresive AG and don't have scalers that induce input lag to start with,
What we have now is:

60hz panels. The have a maximum "motion tracking per second" capability of 60 unique action frames shown per second if you maintain 60fps+ to feed each hz with a newer, unique action frame. They have a lot of FoV movement blur, blurring the entire viewport in a mess "outside of the lines" whenever you move your FoV. This blur obliterates architecture detail, creature detail, gorgeous high detail texture detail of modern games, "3d" depth via bump mapping and other shaders.. smearing the entire viewport.

120hz to 133hz overclockable 2560x1440 glossy ips korean monitors with certain boards in them that allow them to "overclock" to those higher hz. These monitors have greater motion tracking per second. They show 120 or more unique action frames per second as long as you maintain feeding 120fps or more to the monitor. They lack scalers and aggressive AG problems, have the gorgeous static display capabilities of a good ips screen, but still blur a little worse than 1/2 as much as a 60hz TN.

120hz to 144hz 1080p TN monitors with aggressive response time compensation. These monitors have 1/2 as much blur as a very low response time 60hz TN. They have much increased motion tracking capability and smoothness of motion (not to be confused with blur reduction) if you maintain fps equal to or higher than their hz setting. More dots per dotted line length per se (twice as many or more unique , more recent action frames shown per second than a 60hz panel, with the resulting increased accuracy and smoothness feeling).

The newest on the high speed/accuracy/smoothness gaming panel front is that some people realized you could enable the 1ms speed backlights designed for 3D gaming when you are gaming in 2D by using a workaround. This works on 144hz lightboost2 monitors using a nvidia card, running them at 100hz & 100fps+, or 120hz and 120fps+. The results of doing this are a monitor with zero LCD blur, like a professional crt. They also still have the increased motion tracking benefits when maintaining fps higher than their hz setting of course. The way the zero blur lightboost2 2D gaming works is the backlight does a synchronized 1m strobe like a pristine snapshot, conversely blanking out the pixel transition/pixel persistence parts of each frame before an after each strobe.

.
All of these monitor types have some tradeoffs. For gaming, motion is king imo. There are several 120hz or greater flavors to choose from at 1/2 as much blur or worse, including some limited quantities of 120hz - 133hz ips screens. For zero blur there are only a few options currently, and ips is still not fast enough to completely eliminate blur even if there were a lightboost2 ips monitor in existence. So far no ips monitor has intentionally been manufactured to accept over 60hz input though.

I can't imagine gaming on a 60hz panel now. That is going in the opposite direction for gaming as far as I'm concerned, and all of the even higher than 2560x panels due out are stuck at 60hz and likely include scalers and other lag inducing tech in them as far as I have seen.

LCD's blur badly. Even 120hz non-lightboost lcds blur a lot on FoV movement. Its just more of a full soften blur, within the shadow mask of the objects so to speak. It still wipes out all object and high detail texture detail every time you move your FoV.

Its as if some people are so used to wearing their "slushy goggles" they don't know what unblurred FoV movement looks like. I liken it to the allegory of the cave.


HP 30 inch IPS monitors do not have scalers in them. Most monitors do including TN panels.
 
I mentioned reading 120hz, 144hz, and 120hz ips threads to see the whole community of enthusiast gamers and their ongoing quest for better gaming monitor technology (since LCD tech has huge tradeoffs) and you are trying to make it a personal argument against me.

I'm aware that some ips panels like the hp zr30w has no scaler, and that some hazro's are similar. If that is all you took away from the post showing how much 60hz is inferior for games in both motion tracking and lack of blur reduction, and add claim that because some people's rigs aren't powerful enough to maintain over 100fps that such tech is irrelevant.. idk what to say but allegory of the cave again.

Enjoy the blurriest, least motion tracking accuracy and smoothness gaming monitor then if you are happy with it, but I can't see recommending it to anyone as a gaming monitor or being blind to its inferiority and tradeoffs. I would at least get or recommend a 2560 x 1440 "overclockable" korean at 120hz - 133hz for the greatly increased motion tracking and suffer a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn if I was that adamant about ips only. Personally I'm keeping a close eye on the zero blur lightboost2 TN's though, and keeping a 2560 x 1440 27" ips on one side for everything outside of gaming. 60hz and gaming should no longer be used in the same sentence for anyone that has ever used a higher hz lcd with real gpu horsepower, or even on older games like source engine games with more moderate gpu power on a 120hz or higher lcd.
 
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definitely worth doing some research on for a definitive answer to this

You guys really should read some of the larger threads. No offense but this has all been gone over a million times and many of the positions and questions in this thread are quite dated to put it bluntly. Do a search of 120hz and 144hz and dive into a few of the main threads.
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TV's all have 60hz input in the back. That should be enough to cover the root of that question for you at least. ;)
 
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I mentioned reading 120hz, 144hz, and 120hz ips threads to see the whole community of enthusiast gamers and their ongoing quest for better gaming monitor technology (since LCD tech has huge tradeoffs) and you are trying to make it a personal argument against me.

I'm aware that some ips panels like the hp zr30w has no scaler, and that some hazro's are similar. If that is all you took away from the post showing how much 60hz is inferior for games in both motion tracking and lack of blur reduction, and add claim that because some people's rigs aren't powerful enough to maintain over 100fps that such tech is irrelevant.. idk what to say but allegory of the cave again.

Enjoy the blurriest, least motion tracking accuracy and smoothness gaming monitor then if you are happy with it, but I can't see recommending it to anyone as a gaming monitor or being blind to its inferiority and tradeoffs. I would at least get or recommend a 2560 x 1440 "overclockable" korean at 120hz - 133hz for the greatly increased motion tracking and suffer a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz tn if I was that adamant about ips only. Personally I'm keeping a close eye on the zero blur lightboost2 TN's though, and keeping a 2560 x 1440 27" ips on one side for everything outside of gaming. 60hz and gaming should no longer be used in the same sentence for anyone that has ever used a higher hz lcd with real gpu horsepower, or even on older games like source engine games with more moderate gpu power on a 120hz or higher lcd.

My issue with your arguments is that specifications do not always have real world effects. I have both a fast TN gaming monitor and a "slow" u2412m IPS. I want to sell the TN because it looks terrible next to the IPS. The narrow vertical viewing angles result in the top of the screen being too dark which is terrible when playing a game. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that is a large TN panel. Additionally, I perceive almost no difference in motion blur between the TN and the IPS even with RTC cranked on the TN panel. I now do all my gaming on the IPS and my games look much better. Sadly, I bought the TN panel on the recommendations of posts like yours and it wound up being a waste of money for me.

I'm not saying you are lying but after having bought into arguments like yours I can't help but think much of the reported advantages are placebo. Does a 120hz TN have less blur than a decent IPS? Yes, particularly on marketing papers. Does it actually look like there is that much less motion blur? Not in my experience. Another issue is that even my overclocked dual GTX 670s can't keep 120fps+ in all games. The improved colors and vertical viewing angles of good IPS panels make up for any small motion blur deficiency.
 
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I feel it is the opposite camp being in the allegory of the cave ~ wearing blinders. 120hz+ has much greater motion tracking capability at high fps (more dots per dotted line lenth per se). Any idea that cutting the blur in half being any kind of placebo effect, and that the greatly increased motion tracking does not result in more smooth feeling/more accurate movement and more current action data shown is false. Maybe people are so used to wearing their slushy goggles they don't know what a better prescription looks like. Futhermore, I included an example and option of a 2560x1440 IPS panel that is capable of 120hz - 133hz, with the greatly increased motion tracking benefit and a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz. So making this entirely a TN vs IPS argument is another falsehood.

60 hz, well this lcd is ony 60hz, SO WHAT??? WHAT OF IT?? this is an lcd not a crt, so the refresh rate is not of dire importance. Dont buy into all the 120hz marketing hype.

GAMES are great on this panel, no lag, no ghosting with nvidia 670 at any resolution, my preference for gaming has been 1920x1200 on this monitor.

Holy wall of text.

I agree that both are very good monitors.
<snip>
I, on the other hand, try to be objective
<snip>

I appreciate the time that you took to go in depth for your review, but two things stood out that made me wonder how much of it I should place any stock in.

First, you bought one of the finest monitors available with 30 inches of 2560x1600 glory, yet you game at 1920x1200? <snip>

Second, and this one tops them all:
60 hz, well this lcd is ony 60hz, SO WHAT??? WHAT OF IT?? this is an lcd not a crt, so the refresh rate is not of dire importance. Dont buy into all the 120hz marketing hype.
I could write a lot here, but I won't. I'll just say that after personally owning a 120hz display, I can say that it is anything but "marketing hype." If you have the graphics horsepower to push your frame rate far past 60hz it makes a HUGE difference in the fluidity and smoothness of things.

And I am able to say this because I have a 27" Samsung 120hz monitor sitting right beside of my U3011. To be honest, if it wasn't for loving 2560x1600 for desktop use so much, I'd consider selling the Dell. After gaming on the 120hz monitor, the motion blur and lack of fluidity on the 30" is very noticeable.

Going from 60 to 120hz was one of those noticeable leaps that you experience like when you go from a HDD to an SSD or from SD to HDTV television. And I get it -- when you only have the former you can't (or don't want to) imagine the latter being that much of a difference. But after experience the latter, it's very hard to go back to the former. Everything is so smooth and crisp when playing on a 120hz monitor; it's startling, actually.
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This has already been covered extensively in several other threads
Monitors make me sad... Gaming on 120hz or IPS panel?
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I feel it is the opposite camp being in the allegory of the cave ~ wearing blinders. 120hz+ has much greater motion tracking capability at high fps (more dots per dotted line lenth per se). Any idea that cutting the blur in half being any kind of placebo effect, and that the greatly increased motion tracking does not result in more smooth feeling/more accurate movement and more current action data shown is false. Maybe people are so used to wearing their slushy goggles they don't know what a better prescription looks like. Futhermore, I included an example and option of a 2560x1440 IPS panel that is capable of 120hz - 133hz, with the greatly increased motion tracking benefit and a little worse than 1/2 the blur of a 60hz. So making this entirely a TN vs IPS argument is another falsehood.




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This has already been covered extensively in several other threads
Monitors make me sad... Gaming on 120hz or IPS panel?
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Is there a difference between a 120hz TN and a decently fast IPS? Yes, of course there is. But, to me it is not night and day and there are other trade offs to consider as well(vertical viewing angles, color, etc). When I went from 20" CRT monitors to 24" LCDs did my gaming performance suddently suffer, no. IPS LCDs have only gotten better since then. Going from CRT to LCD was similar to this TN vs IPS argument. The hardcore were screaming LCDs were terrible for gaming and anyone not legally blind would suffer from switching to an LCD.

It is a TN vs IPS argument. Overclocking a B-Grade IPS monitor that is not even in production any more is not an option for most. The whole point of this argument is about getting the best display quality. While we might differ by which metrics we judge display quality on, a b-grade IPS panel is not a worthy substitute.
 
point of this argument is about getting the best display quality. .

about best quality GAMING display in all the threads referenced, including this one. This is a different arena than a desktop/app/still-imagery display. This is not a jack of all trades argument. This is - what is the best display for gaming argument. That is why some people keep more than one monitor type.
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Going from a fw900 professional crt to a 60hz lcd was a huge increase in blur and reduction in motion tracking , yes. Whether you choose to brush off obvious deficiencies in motion is your choice but it doesn't mean they are not appreciable deficiencies, and conversely that the 120hz and higher monitors available are not very appreciable gains in the right direction regarding motion / FoV-movement based gaming.

Overclocking a B-Grade IPS monitor that is not even in production any more is not an option for most. The whole point of this argument is about getting the best display quality. While we might differ by which metrics we judge display quality on, a b-grade IPS panel is not a worthy substitute.
As far as I've seen, they are out of stock not out of production for good, and a lot of work is going into making sure they and their overclockable pcb's will be available going forward. The best of the high hz gaming TN's let alone a "B-grade" ips panel at 120hz - 133hz , gaining the greatly increased motion tracking and reduction to near half as much blur should not be sneered at in regard to gaming vs a 60hz with low motion tracking and the worst blur available
 
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Smoothness means more frames per second due to higher hz input combined with fps that approaches, or better yet surpasses that number of hz. This smoothness people talk about is increased motion tracking due to more unique and more recent action 'slices' shown per second.
--A 60hz monitor can not compare to the smoothness of motion tracking of a 120hz or 144hz monitor at high fps, due to so many more unique, more recent frames of action being shown per second.
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The other benefit of very low response time + aggressive response time compensation (RTC) 120hz input monitors is that they reduce the amount of blur during FoV movement.
---- A 60hz TN blurs horribly during FoV movement, a 60hz IPS would blur even worse.
----The 120hz TN's reduce this blur about 50% compared to a 60hz tn.
----The 120hz IPS (limited number of korean ips) blur a little worse than 50% compared to a 60hz TN.
----The 144hz 1ms TNs with 1ms Lightboost2 3D capability, set at 100hz and running 100+fps, or set at 120hz running 120+fps, result in ZERO BLUR during FoV movement.
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FoV movement on LCD's is a blurred mess.
Reminds me of the "Allegory of the Cave".
Some are so used to wearing their slushy goggles they don't know what its like to see clearly.
the most modern, extremely high resolution texture mapped games , + bumpmapping depth and shaders, make my (60hz ips) lcd screen blur even more obvious and eye wrenching than before since the blur on fast FoV movement washes out that extremely high detail+3d depth my eyes "have a lock on" every time. It strains my eyes and is much more obnoxious to me than more than simpler textured/older games.

Most people seem to agree with this representation of 60hz/120hz *LCD/ CRT blur in games.

lcd-blur.jpg


So it appears to me that 120hz vs the limitation of LCD pixel response times and retinal retention blur would still not be enough to retain the focus on texture detail (much like fine text scrawled on a surface which gets smudged out) and bump map depth.

Its like you have goggles filled with some liquid-gel and every time you turn quickly, your eyes see all fine detail lost in a blurring. 120hz might replace your goggles with a fluid which has double the viscosity, blurring near half as much.. but its still a lousy prescription compared to clear sight imo.
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The 1ms lightboost2 monitors result in the same full clarity as the crt representation.
Consider that blur effect on not just a single simple cartoon cell shaded car.. but rather on a scene, your entire "viewport" full of high detail objects, architecture, landscape, high detail textures, depth via bump mapping, shaders, etc all smearing out during FoV movement. I find it hard to label any monitor that smears like that a "superior picture" or "higher quality display" in regard to gaming. Desktop/app use is another matter, which is why I use a high ppi IPS next to my gaming monitor and intend to going forward. All about tradeoffs.
 
Smoothness means more frames per second due to higher hz input combined with fps that approaches, or better yet surpasses that number of hz. This smoothness people talk about is increased motion tracking due to more unique and more recent action 'slices' shown per second.
--A 60hz monitor can not compare to the smoothness of motion tracking of a 120hz or 144hz monitor at high fps, due to so many more unique, more recent frames of action being shown per second.
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The other benefit of very low response time + aggressive response time compensation (RTC) 120hz input monitors is that they reduce the amount of blur during FoV movement.
---- A 60hz TN blurs horribly during FoV movement, a 60hz IPS would blur even worse.
----The 120hz TN's reduce this blur about 50% compared to a 60hz tn.
----The 120hz IPS (limited number of korean ips) blur a little worse than 50% compared to a 60hz TN.
----The 144hz 1ms TNs with 1ms Lightboost2 3D capability, set at 100hz and running 100+fps, or set at 120hz running 120+fps, result in ZERO BLUR during FoV movement.
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FoV movement on LCD's is a blurred mess.

lol, I get your arguement. 120hz = 2*60hz therefore it must be twice as good.

I just don't see that much of an improvement in motion blur in practice. It is better but does not feel twice as good as a reasonably fast IPS monitor. I do have a third older Dell IPS from ~2005 that has considerably more motion blur than my newer IPS monitor. Also note that my TN panel is 120hz but not lightboost2. I imagine the difference between a 120hz w/ lightboost and my IPS would be much greater.

One of the first things I did to test my TN panel we load up a calculator and drag the window at a reasonably fast pace on the TN and then the IPS. I can see less motion blur on the TN which keeps the numbers more easily readable while in motion. This is about the best experiment I've seen to show the difference. For whatever reason, it is less noticeable in games to me.
 
One of the gains of 120hz, 133hz, and 144hz gaming monitors is greatly increased motion tracking. Double (and more) the "slices" of newer, more recent action data shown along with its greatly increased smoothness feel and look is a huge increase so I don't see where the lol comes in. It is a big difference and night and day to most people in real usage.

The other big difference is in the amount of blur. One of the reasons you might not have noticed it in gaming as much is because on desktop you are maintaining "120fps" no problem. If during your game you had lower fps, you are feeding your 120hz less frames which makes it transition less often like a lower hz monitor sortof. i.e. you have to feed a 120hz or higher monitor near to or preferably higher fps than its hz in order to get the full benefit of the motion tracking and blur reduction. The other reason you may not notice as much in games is whether conciously or unconciously:
ways I've seen people "workaround" , "attempt to ignore" , or pretend to be oblivious to it are flick-FoV movement from A-to-B in an attempt to "blink" past the FoV arc motion that smears every time, otherwise they just try to ignore and not pay attention during the FoV movement, trying not to focus their vision during it (sortof a lazy gaze during movement)... or you let your locked on eye focus strain at the textures and texture-depth via bump mapping that smear out during each FoV movement, since your eyes always try to focus away blur (I know mine do). Its most annoying on the highest detail extreme textured games.

One of the first things I did to test my TN panel we load up a calculator and drag the window at a reasonably fast pace on the TN and then the IPS. I can see less motion blur on the TN which keeps the numbers more easily readable while in motion. This is about the best experiment I've seen to show the difference. For whatever reason, it is less noticeable in games to me.

The pixelperan text reading test on prad.de is the best home blur test you can do without using a $10,000 camera. The text scrolls by from a speed of 1 to a speed of 30. A graphics professional crt is still readable at a 30, and the lightboost2 strobing lcd's are readable at 29 - 30. 60 hz lcd's are lucky to be readable at a 5 if that. I think 120hz non lightboost2 lcd's are readable up to around 7 speed on the test. This test relates to high detail objects and high detail textures (the entire viewport's scene objects) being washed out in blur, i.e. "unreadable" during FoV movements of those speeds.

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/pixperan.html (click the word "Download" in the last few sentences).

That blur trail length during FoV movement = the entire viewport trailing/blurring that much. To the eye, that is just a huge smeary blur during motion.

The 1ms lightboost2 monitors result in the same full clarity as the crt representation.
Consider that blur effect on not just a single simple cartoon cell shaded car.. but rather on a scene, your entire "viewport" full of high detail objects, architecture, landscape, high detail textures, depth via bump mapping, shaders, etc all smearing out during FoV movement. I find it hard to label any monitor that smears like that a "superior picture" or "higher quality display" in regard to gaming. Desktop/app use is another matter, which is why I use a high ppi IPS next to my gaming monitor and intend to going forward. All about tradeoffs.

It can't be easily captured in a video, because you need a tracking camera (moving camera that tracks motion):
Motion Blur Measurement Kit
(Costs over $10,000).
Computer monitor manufacturers and display manufacturers use such tracking cameras to optimize their displays.

Stationary cameras (still cameras or video cameras that aren't moving to track a moving object).

1. Stationary camera

...Advantage: Measuring pixel persistence
...Disadvantage: Cannot properly measure eye-tracking-based motion blur

2. Moving camera

...Advantage: WYSIWYG (what the eye saw). Measuring eye-tracking based motion blur, including trailing effects.
...Disadvantage: Very difficult, expensive setups

The second image is a 1/60sec shutter, taken on a Samsung 226BW with a 180Hz PWM CCFL backlight. The camera tracked the moving object (which was moving at 960 pixels per second). It even successfully captured the triple-image effect of the 180Hz PWM

For users, the easiest way for everyday users to benchmark: You need to benchmark it using software, such as PixPerAn, or other motion benchmarking software.

Below, again remember that the "Trail length" actually looks like the WISIWYG blurry "blob" photo to your eye, not the single trail that a cheap camera shows. Trail length is still a useful measurement to give an idea of how much blur to expect, just that it won't look like the trail, it will look like a blob the entire space between the original and the trailing image.. The longer the trail, the more horrible the real world blur is to your actual eyes. (And as always, remember it is the entire viewport and scene blurring like that when you move your FoV, not just a simple single cell shaded object).

If you come from a CRT, then you will be dissapointed to hear that 120Hz will only reduce motion blur, but not eliminate motion blur completely. You need strobe backlight to do a dramatic reduction. CRT and plasma are impulse-driven displays, but LCD normally isn't impulse-driven (except for LightBoost strobe mode).

PixPerAn chase test, 960 pixels per second:
60Hz -- blur trail length of about 16 pixels
120Hz non-strobed -- blur trail length of about 8 pixels
120Hz LightBoost strobe backlight -- blur trail length of ~1 pixels (CRT sharp)

The above quote was taken when the lightboost2 lcd's tested were not the newer 1ms backlight strobe models which are tighter. The latest ones do not even have a single 1pixel afterimage and truly have zero blur. I didn't want to post outdated info without saying that.
 
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The reading test on pixelperan is the best home blur test you can do without using a $10,000 camera. The text scrolls by from a speed of 1 to a speed of 30. A graphics professional crt is still readable at a 30, and the lightboost2 strobing lcd's are readable at 29 - 30. 60 hz lcd's are lucky to be readable at a 5. I think 120hz non lightboost2 lcd's are readable up to around 7 speed on the test. This test relates to high detail objects and high detail textures (the entire viewport) being washed out in blur, i.e. "unreadable" during FoV movements of those speeds.

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/pixperan.html (click the word "Download" in the last few sentences).



Below, again remember that the "Trail length" actually looks like the WISIWYG blurry "blob" photo to your eye, not the single trail that a cheap camera shows. Trail length is still a useful measurement to give an idea of how much blur to expect, just that it won't look like the trail, it will look like a blob the entire space between the original and the trailing image.. The longer the trail, the more horrible the real world blur is to your actual eyes.

Yes, mathematically 120hz is twice as fast. I get it.

Those pixel tests are black text on a white background, aka the worst possible scenario. That's great for a test(not unlike my calculator example) but most of my games do not involve such contrasts.

The original post was asking about IPS for gaming. You're acting like it is almost stupid to game on an IPS and your kill/death ratio would suffer because of it. Like I said before, these are not unlike the arguments I heard when switching from CRT to LCDs years ago. Many people game on IPS monitors and have no issue whatsoever.
 
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Thats why I call it allegory of the cave. Happy to watch their shadows on the wall ;b Ignorance is bliss. I myself argued the 60hz point back and forth for a period of time until I actually bought a 120hz on sale and tried it. Of course I did not get rid of my high ppi ips screen for everything outside of gaming though, where they are gorgeous. Its all about the tradeoffs.

120hz+ is not just twice as fast, showing more recent action data twice (or more at higher than 120hz) as often, ... its twice as "FULL" of still-frame slices of action. More dots per dotted line length per se, but being action snapshots not dots. This produces much greater fluidity of motion and greater ability to follow/track and react to action. The other benefit is that is halves the amount of motion blur, relegating it to more of a smeared out soften blur closer to the "shadow masks" of onscreen objects and architectures.

If I were considering an "IPS monitor for gaming" and was concerned about distortion and "ghosting" as the OP said, I'd get in line on a korean 120hz - 133hz ips. They will be available again. They are not cheap though since they come in limited quantities and are much sought after for good reason. Otherwise I would get the best 120hz - 144hz TN you can get. They are under $300. Put your desktop/app ips next to it. Suggesting someone in the market for a gaming monitor now to buy a 60hz with inferior motion tracking and full motion blur considering modern options is not something people should be recommending (again, for a gaming monitor) in my opinion. There is no way I can ever understand that position.

Personally I'm looking forward to trying a zero blur 1ms backlight strobing TN later this year, (after upgrading to a titan or gtx 780) as my gaming monitor. High rez/high ppi IPS for all else desktop all the way though. The 120hz - 133hz ips models are still tempting but the zero blur lightboost2 tn monitor option for under $300 is well worth trying out when I upgrade my gpu.
 
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Thats why I call it allegory of the cave. Happy to watch their shadows on the wall ;b Ignorance is bliss. I myself argued the 60hz point back and forth for a period of time until I actually bought a 120hz on sale and tried it. Of course I did not get rid of my high ppi ips screen for everything outside of gaming though, where they are gorgeous. Its all about the tradeoffs.

120hz+ is not just twice as fast, showing more recent action data twice (or more at higher than 120hz) as often, ... its twice as "FULL" of still-frame slices of action. More dots per dotted line length per se, but being action snapshots not dots. This produces much greater fluidity of motion and greater ability to follow/track and react to action. The other benefit is that is halves the amount of motion blur, relegating it to more of a smeared out soften blur closer to the "shadow masks" of onscreen objects and architectures.

If I were considering an "IPS monitor for gaming" and was concerned about distortion and "ghosting" as the OP said, I'd get in line on a korean 120hz - 133hz ips. They will be available again. They are not cheap though since they come in limited quantities and are much sought after for good reason. Otherwise I would get the best 120hz - 144hz TN you can get. They are under $300. Put your desktop/app ips next to it. Suggesting someone in the market now to buy a 60hz with full motion blur considering modern options is not something people should be recommending for a gaming monitor in my opinion. There is no way I can ever understand that position.

Personally I'm looking forward to trying a zero blur 1ms backlight strobing TN later this year, (after upgrading to a titan or gtx 780) as my gaming monitor. High rez/high ppi IPS for all else desktop all the way though. The 120hz - 133hz ips models are still tempting but the zero blur lightboost2 tn monitor option for under $300 is well worth trying out when I upgrade my gpu.

It is incredible that people can use an IPS monitor for anything other than static images. There is just so much motion blur that when I scroll a web page I have to let it sit still for 2 full seconds just be able to read the text through the blurry mess. :rolleyes:
 
You most definitely can't read it at any decent scrolling speed. You are ignoring the blur duration, trying not to focus on it, or flicking from point A to B like a gnat as a workaround, as I already outlined. This does nothing to refute that the "full" blur of a 60hz panel and lack of increased motion tracking and smoothness is a very appreciable inferiority on a gaming monitor and in regard to gaming
 
It is incredible that people can use an IPS monitor for anything other than static images. There is just so much motion blur that when I scroll a web page I have to let it sit still for 2 full seconds just be able to read the text through the blurry mess. :rolleyes:


He would have people believe that an IPS monitor is just useless for anything other than looking at a still photo.

The motion blur photos of the little race car he posted were from an article dealing with motion blur from six years ago. Those IPS panels had a higher response time than the PVA and MVA monitors of that era. That is not the case today.

He would have you believe that it is impssible to game on an IPS monitor which is simply not true.

I tend to agree people buy into this 120hz placebo marketing affect and to defend the notion that a TN panel is the only thing which you can use for gaming. Simply not true. Blind studies have clearly indicated that few individuals notice a difference between 60hz and 120hz when they dont know which one they are being presented with.

This guy had an fw900 b CRT and is comparing 60hz to his experiences SIX YEARS AGO when most lcd panels had a high response time especially IPS panels of that era.

THere comes a point when people are soo obsessed about response time, refresh time ( which is not that same as with CRT) and frame rates that they lose perspective focusing solely on statistics.

I have used my hpzr30w for gaming on black ops, medal of honor warfighter, battlefield 3 etc. I have had no problems with blurry motion, no ghosting and zero issues with the anti glare coating which from what i have seen of 27 different monitors yesterday has no discernable difference from smaller matte panels by any brand when viewing white screens.

I have 20:20 vision and could clearly detect refresh patterns on crt back in the day.

This guy with his 120hz TN panel would have everyone believe that you simply cannot game on a 60hz IPS monitor without suffering horribly and this is simply no the case at all.

Clearly he enjoys TN panels. Most people who only drive a honda civic dont appreciate the refinement of a mercedes.

Any benefit rewarded by a 120hz panel which is negligible to start with is negated by the negative properties of a TN panel with its sickly viewing angles and lack of colors but you will not likely convince the herd of that. Their collective minds focus on 1080p and 120hz and they never even blinked let alone cry foul when manufacturers cheapened monitors with a 16:9 aspect ratio which was done purely to save money and not to benefit the consumers who lost over a physical inch of vertical viewing area on their displays or more depending on monitor size. You could probably hack another two inches of vertical off their displays and make them wider, call it 240hz and they would have an orgasm reviewing the specs like that new dell 29 inch panel that is very wide yet only has the vertical viewing size of a 20 inch panel hell it looks half as tall as my 30 inch panel and looks ridiculous.

Modern higher end graphics cards are more than capable of rendering the higher resolutions of larger panels these days with very good frame rates. While I have not tested my frame rates, benchmarks as 1920x1200 are generally over a hundred and at 2560x1600 are still generally more than double 30fps so smoothness in gaming is never a problem.

The human eye in perfect condition can only do 25 to 30 frames per second and I very much doubt there are any superhuman genetically enhanced individuals out there who can top that.
 
It is incredible that people can use an IPS monitor for anything other than static images. There is just so much motion blur that when I scroll a web page I have to let it sit still for 2 full seconds just be able to read the text through the blurry mess. :rolleyes:


sounds to me like your monitor is not properly calibrated, you look at your screen in the dark which isnt good for your eyes and perhaps you need an eye exam.
 
Its also worth noting that small text at higher resolutions will look blurry on ANY panel especially on web pages like hardforum where the background is black and the text is white.
Not exactly the best choice for your eyes.
 
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