ASUS/BENQ LightBoost owners!! Zero motion blur setting!

dopple said:
you guys must be wanting a CRT? :D
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My CRT looks a little dead (Its from 2001 - with heavy usage: the colors are brightness are off)

My Tempest OC 120hz IPS has arrived but after $500+ for the tempest it looks like i'll also need another $400+ for a new Video card to push it to 120hz? I'm still deciding if its worth it to spend in total close to $1000 or whether to look for another CRT (crapshoot?)

About the Tempest:
At 60hz in PixPerAn on the tempest i got past speed 10 (after several tries)
11 looked unreadable
At 60hz in game i didn't notice too much lag but quick 180 degree turns it looks like i only see a few frames. I guess if i get it to 120hz i will see more frames during quick turns
Even if they are blurry, blurry frames are much better than missing frames!
I measured the Tempest (LED) uses about 47 watts of power (60hz) vs 110 for the CRT
 
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Strafer said:
I guess if i get a new graphics card and get it to 120hz i will see more frames during quick turns (even if they are blurry, blurry frames are much better than missing frames)
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You say "new graphics card". What do you currently have? Even if it's slow, as long as it has a dual link dvi port you should be able to test 120hz. From there pick an older game and I'm certain you could see what it looks like at 120hz.
 
elvn said:
If it comes down to the difference being clear readable text and clear "readable" high texture detail incl. bump mapping, etc during FoV movement at speed - or not - for any time in the foreseeable future, my choice for (dedicated to) gaming would be the clear one.
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That reply was meant to the 94% "crt-like clarity" of a very low response time + lightboost2 monitor vs the lesser ips blur reduction (and non lightboost 120hz TN's for that matter) that had been quoted, in relation to what we are likely to have available "any time soon". If it came down to the difference being the clear readability of text and texture detail during FoV movement (or not) being the difference between lightboost tn or ips in the next few years, I'd personally choose the clear one (for my dedicated to gaming monitor) is all I am saying. Happy holidays everyone ;)

Mark Rejhon said:
Agreed. Although 120Hz TN (non-LightBoost, too) has less motion blur than 120Hz IPS, 120Hz IPS still has less motion blur than 60Hz IPS. The pixels on IPS cannot transition fast enough to be an exact halving of motion blur from 60Hz->120Hz, but there IS a reduction of motion blur from 60Hz->120Hz IPS. Just not as much as the blur reduction from 60Hz->120Hz TN, due to the slower IPS pixel response.

If a strobe backlight is a sequential scanning backlight (like those used in some existing high-end HDTV's), the LED's can flash in sync, in a top-to-bottom scanning fashion, then you don't need to wait for the pixel persistence to finish in the VSYNC. As long as some part of the display has adequately refreshed while keeping other parts of the display (still refreshing) in the dark. The disadvantage of a sequential scanning backlight is much more complexity in the electronics, and backlight diffusion (on-segments of backlight leaking into off-segments of backlight). So that puts a limit on motion blur reduction.

However, it should be possible to reduce motion blur on IPS displays by another approximately 50-75%, using a good sequential scanning backlight. You just won't get the 94% motion blur reduction (over a LCD 60Hz display) that a 1ms strobe backlight would provide. (94% comes from 1ms versus 16.67ms), at least not until IPS speeds up and uses response-time acceleration (with its disadvantages alas, it is also an ingredient that allows 3D and zero motion blur to be possible). Some IPS HDTV's work with shutter glasses, so it's possible to make IPS fast enough. It just has not arrived on computer-monitor sized panels.

Click the link: strobed/scanning backlights in existing high-end HDTV's. You'll see that IPS 3D HDTV's exist, and with scanning backlights too -- strobe backlights in your home theater display, combined with IPS -- already here today. But, alas, they are not videogame-friendly because they use motion interpolation, and they don't reduce motion blur nearly as much as LightBoost does. But if you like the Motionflow effect, then you'll probably like, say, the Elite(tm) LCD HDTV, a high-end flanker brand by Sharp Electronics -- it is one of the best LED backlight LCD HDTV's out there, using IPS LCD technology, and provides the zero-motion-blur effect during video material (At least video material taken with fast shutter speed), if you don't mind the motion interpolation being combined with a scanning backlight. It even has local dimming, which means it turns off LED's behind parts of the display that are black. Alas, not very video game friendly, it has lots of input lag, and it costs several thousand dollars.

But a lot of the technology could be transferred to a computer monitor, in a low-input-lag manner. It's definitely technically doable, given the right panel and electronis, as well as backlight.
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Strafer said:
About the Tempest:
At 60hz in PixPerAn on the tempest i got past speed 10 (after several tries)
11 looked unreadable
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Pixperan @ 60hz the text will move much slower and therefore you will be able to read much higher tempos. If you want to compare the motion blur to the Lightboost monitors then you will need to use 120hz.
 
An Apples-to-Apples test would be 120Hz regular versus 120Hz LightBoost, due to the PixPerAn speed differences.
 
Strafer said:
My CRT looks a little dead (Its from 2001 - with heavy usage: the colors are brightness are off)

My Tempest OC 120hz IPS has arrived but after $500+ for the tempest it looks like i'll also need another $400+ for a new Video card to push it to 120hz? I'm still deciding if its worth it to spend in total close to $1000 or whether to look for another CRT (crapshoot?)

About the Tempest:
At 60hz in PixPerAn on the tempest i got past speed 10 (after several tries)
11 looked unreadable
At 60hz in game i didn't notice too much lag but quick 180 degree turns it looks like i only see a few frames. I guess if i get it to 120hz i will see more frames during quick turns
Even if they are blurry, blurry frames are much better than missing frames!
I measured the Tempest (LED) uses about 47 watts of power (60hz) vs 110 for the CRT
Click to expand...

id go for a crt till cled comes. even a non fw900. 21"ers are common and cheap. see if you can get your current monitor repaired for 100-200$ that will be money better spent.
 
How activate lighboost in 2d with vg236H and benq xl2420T without ir emitter and 3d glasses?

I try this method with a vg236H but I don't see any difference
Originally Posted by TuGuX
@[member='bojinglebells']
First, you install this .inf via device manager: http://www.file-upload.net/download-...rride.inf.html
Then you reboot.

After this, you enable this: http://www.file-upload.net/download-...asses.reg.html (note: Mark Rejhon's file)

Make sure windows is set to 120Hz
Goto NVIDIA drivers, check the box to 'Enable Stereoscopic 3D'.
Assuming it has worked, it should now list the 'ASUS VG278H' monitor as the Stereoscopic 3D display type, and not '3D Vision Discover' which is there by default.
In this same section, set the drop down box for stereoscopic 3D to 'Always Run'.

Now start a game, I tested it with CS:GO .. I had 60 FPS and real 3D on (which is not good) AND check your monitor settings (when you go in menu -> picture, there should be something like "Nvidia LightBoost", then it's working)

Next step, just uncheck 'Enable Stereoscopic 3D'. Now you should have more than 120 FPS with LightBoost (depending on your hardware), so everything is nice and working right now.

To turn it off, I guess you have to change the Always Run stuff, or completely deinstall monitor and install normal BenQ Drivers
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I try pixel analyzer but at 10I can't read with or without method above.
Originally Posted by Swolern
Pixel Persistence Analyzer (PixPerAn) Readability Test Results 120hz: Wow just wow! Speechless.........

-Highest readable tempo without Lightboost (LB) was 7 and even that was blurry and my eyes where straining to read it.
-Highest readable tempo with Lightboost was 30 (Only could read the first 5 letters)

yes this LB hack makes my VG278H monitors have Zero perceivable motion blur.
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Why?
 
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The VG236H isn't a lightboost monitor, and there's no way to make it so. It doesn't have the necessary hardware components built in.
 
I borrowed an old low end CRT monitor (1024x768 at 85hz) to compare to the Asus VG278. I wanted to see if the stuttering and double images at lower FPS are also present on a CRT.

The result is... yes.
All the issues I found on the VG278 were replicated on the CRT. Double image effect, noticeable stuttering and blurring of the image were all present when the framerate dipped under the refresh rate.

Firefox middle click scrolling, Diablo 3 and Bit Trip Bit all had double images when running at 85hz.
Curiously, the games run just fine at 60hz.

In this case I would say I am pleased that the VG278 provides the alternative between normal LCD mode and CRT / lightboost mode. The only downside is that the lowest framerate is 100hz.
I will have to upgrade my CPU as well it seems.

Can anyone else confirm that Diablo 3 does not work properly at refresh rates other than 60hz ?
 
willow31 said:
How activate lighboost in 2d with vg236H and benq xl2420T without ir emitter and 3d glasses?

I try this method with a vg236H but I don't see any difference
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This tip won't work with the VG236H because it does not have LightBoost.
 
dopple said:
id go for a crt till cled comes. even a non fw900. 21"ers are common and cheap. see if you can get your current monitor repaired for 100-200$ that will be money better spent.
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Note that OLED does not necessarily reduce motion blur.
Some of them are sample and hold, so they also have the same disadvantage.
Others are impulse driven. But you need a very bright OLED to do an impulse-driven OLED with zero motion blur. OLED"s have long had some difficulties with brightness, but they are working to solve that problem.

The OLED on the PS Vita, for example, is sample-and-hold. We will probably be stuck with CRT and LCD for a long time. From the perspective of motion blur, LightBoost or CRT will be better than the first-generation OLED computer monitors available at first. However, home theater OLED's will probably be the first ones to arrive, before computer monitor size OLED's, due to the prices of computer monitors being too low to make it attractive to OLED makers. We'll probably see IPS strobed backlights first.

As for Crystal LED (individual LED's per pixel) like the Sony prototype at CES, are easier to strobe and do zero motion blur, but these displays are hyper expensive to make, so will be a longer time than OLED (organic LED's on a substrate) to arrive on market.
 
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hanabie said:
I'm about to get asus vg278he. Just want to make sure if it will work with this
TIA
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Yes, it will, though you will need to install the INF file to get LightBoost working without shutter glasses. Also, it dims significantly when LightBoost is enabled, until you re-raise the Contrast to around 92.

I've heard the BENQ has a much brighter LightBoost, although a reported problem is it has the crimson tint. Once it arrives, I'll be comparing the pros/cons of the ASUS versus the BENQ.
 
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mdrejhon said:
Note that OLED does not necessarily reduce motion blur.
Some of them are sample and hold, so they also have the same disadvantage.
Others are impulse driven. But you need a very bright OLED to do an impulse-driven OLED with zero motion blur. OLED"s have long had some difficulties with brightness, but they are working to solve that problem.

The OLED on the PS Vita, for example, is sample-and-hold. We will probably be stuck with CRT and LCD for a long time. LightBoost or CRT will be better than the first-generation OLED computer monitors available at first. However, home theater OLED's will probably be the first ones to arrive, before computer monitor size OLED's, due to the prices of computer monitors being too low to make it attractive to OLED makers. We'll probably see IPS strobed backlights first.

As for Crystal LED (individual LED's per pixel) like the Sony prototype at CES, are easier to strobe and do zero motion blur, but these displays are hyper expensive to make, so will be a longer time than OLED (organic LED's on a substrate) to arrive on market.
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If only they didn't kill SED/FED... :(
 
l88bastard said:
Yah, um no...sorry but you just don't know what you are talking about. Your letting YOUR 60hz IPS 2560x1440 panel bias your opinion versus the 120hz 2560x1440 panels. I HAVE OWNED the VG278HE 144hz Asus, Samsung S27A750 & S27A950 (The key word is owned NOT talk out my ass) and the 2560x1440 120hz IPS panels blow them out of the fucking water. Whatever math applies to the 60hz versions (pixel response, fov movement, bump mapping, etc, gets thrown out the window once you go 120hz, which is why it would be very interesting if somebody like Mark could test them out and give us the real numbers on exactly what happens when an IPS goes 120hz. If you don't believe me, ask Vega because hes owned all of those displays too and he will be the first to tell you that 60hz 2560x1440 IPS is SHIT compared to 120hz 2560x1440 IPS.
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Your stance on this is already well documented. Also completely indefensible. How like you to completely ignore an entire thread full of information about how TERRIBLE sample-and-hold LCDs are with motion. Totally ignore the comparatively atrocious IPS response time and its effect on motion blur. Continue to congratulate yourself on your amazing purchase.
 
wabbitseason said:
Your stance on this is already well documented. Also completely indefensible. How like you to completely ignore an entire thread full of information about how TERRIBLE sample-and-hold LCDs are with motion. Totally ignore the comparatively atrocious IPS response time and its effect on motion blur. Continue to congratulate yourself on your amazing purchase.
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My THREE amazing purchases. I own three of them. They are fantastic, thank you.
 
l88bastard said:
If you don't believe me, ask Vega because hes owned all of those displays too and he will be the first to tell you that 60hz 2560x1440 IPS is SHIT compared to 120hz 2560x1440 IPS.
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Let's be more _specific_ here. You're clearly referring to color quality.

From a color quality perspective, there's no disagreement there with you. If color quality is numero uno, don't look for a LightBoost monitor. Color quality won't be there.
However, from a fast motion clarity perspective, all LightBoost LCD's outperform everything else (Reportedly sometimes even CRT too, in some cases)

It all really boils down to whether you're a PhotoShop/wedding photographer -- or you're playing online competition FPS (and not pausing to smell the virtual flowers in the game).
 
mdrejhon said:
Let's be more _specific_ here. You're clearly referring to color quality.

From a color quality perspective, there's no disagreement there with you. If color quality is numero uno, don't look for a LightBoost monitor. Color quality won't be there.
However, from a fast motion clarity perspective, all LightBoost LCD's outperform everything else (Reportedly sometimes even CRT too, in some cases)

It all really boils down to whether you're a PhotoShop/wedding photographer -- or you're playing online competition FPS (and not pausing to smell the virtual flowers in the game).
Click to expand...

No, im actually not one of those people that bitch about TN panel colors or viewing angles. My biggest gripe is the lackluster resolution of the 1080p. 1080p looks like shit next to 1440p, Especially at 27" Now I would take a 1080p 120hz TN panel over a 1440p 60hz panel for gaming, but NOT OVER a 1440p 120hz IPS panel. This is what I am saying, for those that have not tried a 1440p 120hz IPS panel, YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE MISSING AND YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL WHEN YOU TALK THEM DOWN.

Anyway, if Asus, Benq, Whatever, sold a 2560x1440 144hz TN panel with lightboost I would buy it in a heartbeat, because I enjoy 3D and would like to run blur free 2D using your method. I ran the HE144hz Directly next to my 2b and the minimal gain in blur was LARGLEY offset by the terrible resoultion. In games like BF3 the higher 1440p resolution is critical for seeing detail in the larger maps. And in older games like HALO CE PC, I can not detect ANY noticeable input lag difference between my 2B and FW900 (BF3 has built in input lag for "realism").
 
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I'm talking about choosing a 1080p lightboost2 enabled monitor over both a 120hz non-lightboost2 2560x1440 ips and a 120hz non-lightboost2 1080p TN. Choosing full readability/detail (of the entire scene, textures, objects, text ) during FoV movement (with perhaps a tiny ghost afterimage that apparently does not smudge the original/primary scene/objects), quoted as 94% "crt-like clarity".

I love high rez but blur during FoV movement is much more annoying to me than playing at 1080p personally. Some people just seem to settle for blur due to whats available and perhaps that many don't know what zero blur FoV movement looks like. If there are LCD's (Lighboost2 enabled) available that result in essentially zero blur of texture detail, objects, and text during FoV movement, I'd go with that one whenever I could afford to. If a few years down the line a higher (than 1080p) rez display came out with essentially zero motion blur, of course I'd be interested in that.

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039453784&postcount=283

elvn said:
That reply was meant to the 94% "crt-like clarity" of a very low response time + lightboost2 monitor vs the lesser ips blur reduction (and non lightboost 120hz TN's for that matter) that had been quoted, in relation to what we are likely to have available "any time soon". If it came down to the difference being the clear readability of text and texture detail during FoV movement (or not) being the difference between lightboost tn or ips in the next few years, I'd personally choose the clear one (for my dedicated to gaming monitor) is all I am saying. Happy holidays everyone ;)
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Mark Rejhon said:
Agreed. Although 120Hz TN (non-LightBoost, too) has less motion blur than 120Hz IPS, 120Hz IPS still has less motion blur than 60Hz IPS. The pixels on IPS cannot transition fast enough to be an exact halving of motion blur from 60Hz->120Hz, but there IS a reduction of motion blur from 60Hz->120Hz IPS. Just not as much as the blur reduction from 60Hz->120Hz TN, due to the slower IPS pixel response.

......<snip>----

However, it should be possible to reduce motion blur on IPS displays by another approximately 50-75%, using a good sequential scanning backlight. You just won't get the 94% motion blur reduction (over a LCD 60Hz display) that a 1ms strobe backlight would provide. (94% comes from 1ms versus 16.67ms), at least not until IPS speeds up and uses response-time acceleration (with its disadvantages alas, it is also an ingredient that allows 3D and zero motion blur to be possible). Some IPS HDTV's work with shutter glasses, so it's possible to make IPS fast enough. It just has not arrived on computer-monitor sized panels.
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mdrejhon said:
Let's be more _specific_ here. You're clearly referring to color quality.

From a color quality perspective, there's no disagreement there with you. If color quality is numero uno, don't look for a LightBoost monitor. Color quality won't be there.
However, from a fast motion clarity perspective, all LightBoost LCD's outperform everything else (Reportedly sometimes even CRT too, in some cases)

It all really boils down to whether you're a PhotoShop/wedding photographer -- or you're playing online competition FPS (and not pausing to smell the virtual flowers in the game).
Click to expand...

If you buy a 120 or 144hz Lightboost monitor expecting quality color output then you just wasted your money.

Those monitors only shine when gaming is the paramount objective. Running a monitor for gaming and a monitor for everything else you wish to do has some major advantages and allows much more flexibility than trying to find the jack of all trades monitor quest that never ends.

I just got my BenQ today , I'll post my results soon.
 
l88bastard said:
No, im actually not one of those people that bitch about TN panel colors or viewing angles. My biggest gripe is the lackluster resolution of the 1080p. 1080p looks like shit next to 1440p, Especially at 27" Now I would take a 1080p 120hz TN panel over a 1440p 60hz panel for gaming, but NOT OVER a 1440p 120hz IPS panel. This is what I am saying, for those that have not tried a 1440p 120hz IPS panel, YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE MISSING AND YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL WHEN YOU TALK THEM DOWN.

Anyway, if Asus, Benq, Whatever, sold a 2560x1440 144hz TN panel with lightboost I would buy it in a heartbeat, because I enjoy 3D and would like to run blur free 2D using your method. I ran the HE144hz Directly next to my 2b and the minimal gain in blur was LARGLEY offset by the terrible resoultion. In games like BF3 the higher 1440p resolution is critical for seeing detail in the larger maps. And in older games like HALO CE PC, I can not detect ANY noticeable input lag difference between my 2B and FW900 (BF3 has built in input lag for "realism").
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Very opinionated, i have seen the 120hz IPS korean displays. They're great for sure, but after seeing a lightboost 2 mode 120hz, its not worth it. To me.
 
l88bastard said:
No, im actually not one of those people that bitch about TN panel colors or viewing angles. My biggest gripe is the lackluster resolution of the 1080p. 1080p looks like shit next to 1440p, Especially at 27" Now I would take a 1080p 120hz TN panel over a 1440p 60hz panel for gaming, but NOT OVER a 1440p 120hz IPS panel. This is what I am saying, for those that have not tried a 1440p 120hz IPS panel, YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE MISSING AND YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL WHEN YOU TALK THEM DOWN.

Anyway, if Asus, Benq, Whatever, sold a 2560x1440 144hz TN panel with lightboost I would buy it in a heartbeat, because I enjoy 3D and would like to run blur free 2D using your method. I ran the HE144hz Directly next to my 2b and the minimal gain in blur was LARGLEY offset by the terrible resoultion. In games like BF3 the higher 1440p resolution is critical for seeing detail in the larger maps. And in older games like HALO CE PC, I can not detect ANY noticeable input lag difference between my 2B and FW900 (BF3 has built in input lag for "realism").
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You're responding to a logical argument with emotional nonsense. Fact: sample-and-hold IPS doesn't hold a candle to lightboost TN for motion.
 
wabbitseason said:
You're responding to a logical argument with emotional nonsense. Fact: sample-and-hold IPS doesn't hold a candle to lightboost TN for motion.
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Hey, everybody has their legitimate reasons for preferring a monitor.
What we probably can agree is that we can't get everything including the kitchen sink in one LCD monitor.

Resolution? 1440p! 2160p!
Motion? LightBoost! CRT!
Color? IPS! CRT!
Etc, etc...

Everybody's computer usage patterns vary, and game playing patterns vary.
So let's all get back on topic on LightBoost tests, tweaks, reviews, comparisons, the "zero motion blur" ability, etc.
 
mdrejhon said:
Hey, everybody has their legitimate reasons for preferring a monitor.
What we probably can agree is that we can't get everything including the kitchen sink in one LCD monitor.

Resolution? 1440p! 2160p!
Motion? LightBoost! CRT!
Color? IPS! CRT!
Etc, etc...

Everybody's computer usage patterns vary, and game playing patterns vary.
So let's all get back on topic on LightBoost tests, tweaks, reviews, comparisons, the "zero motion blur" ability, etc.
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Well, that's why I specified "motion" at the end of my post. In principle, I agree with you. The poster to which I was referring maintains that 120Hz IPS catleaps are better than these lightboost 1ms TNs for motion, which is patently false.
 
wabbitseason said:
Well, that's why I specified "motion" at the end of my post. In principle, I agree with you. The poster to which I was referring maintains that 120Hz IPS catleaps are better than these lightboost 1ms TNs for motion, which is patently false.
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Once again, that is not what I am saying. Since you have been trolling me thru multiple threads now, hopefully I can hammer some common sense into your noggin and be done with this once and for all. Let me S L O W L Y run it by you one more time.

The motion on a TN 120hz panel is BARELY better than the Motion of a 120hz catleap. I am NOT disputing that. What I am saying and have been saying is, the beneficial motion difference between the TN 120 and 2B 120 is MINIMAL. HOWEVER, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1080P and 1440P is HUGE....FUCKING HUGE!!!!! When you weigh the pros and cons of both against each other, the 120hz 1440p IPS panels STOMP the 120hz TNs a new mud hole for gaming...even competetive FPS gaming.

Also, I have even weighed the input lag of the 120hz Catleap 2B against my Sony FW900 CRT and there is NO detectable input lag on the 2B. However, there is noticeable input lag on the 2b when its only clocked at 60hz.

Do you understand now? I have owned the 144HZ Asus and the 120hz samsungs AND have compared them next to the 2Bs. YOU HAVE NOT. THUS YOUR TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASS!!! So stop yammering about the "numbers" for 60hz IPS panels because NOBODY has run the numbers of the 120hz IPS panels and I assure you they are not one in the same.

PERIOD. END OF STORY.
 
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Thats not the story I'm talking about though. I'm talking about lightboost2 TNs leaving both 120hz non-lightboost2 TN's and 1440p ips's a blurry mess in the rearview for a gaming monitor as far as I'm concerned, assuming the reports of the 94% ~ "crt-like clarity" and essentially zero blur reported by so many are correct. They aren't talking about half as much blur as 60hz -yet-still-a-mess, or a higher rez 1440 but a little worse than the "half of the blur-yet-still-a-mess" reduction.. they are talking about essentially fully clear readability of text, texture, objects/scene elements with if anything, a subtle ghost after effect/shadow that doesn't smudge any of the original material.I'm hoping to get the XL2411T or similar and a nvidia card sometime this coming year (perhaps after tax return).

elvn said:
That reply was meant to the 94% "crt-like clarity" of a very low response time + lightboost2 monitor vs the lesser ips blur reduction (and non lightboost 120hz TN's for that matter) that had been quoted, in relation to what we are likely to have available "any time soon". If it came down to the difference being the clear readability of text and texture detail during FoV movement (or not) being the difference between lightboost tn or ips in the next few years, I'd personally choose the clear one (for my dedicated to gaming monitor) is all I am saying. Happy holidays everyone ;)
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Your subjective opinion is worthless. No one is talking about "overall gaming experience" or whatever you want to call your make-believe metric. This is a thread about reducing motion blur. YOU had to come in here and start mouthing off about how wonderful your Catleaps are, and how they trivialize any possible advantage these new TNs have. Good for you. Now be quiet about how great your monitors are and lets get the thread back on topic.
 
wabbitseason said:
Your subjective opinion is worthless. No one is talking about "overall gaming experience" or whatever you want to call your make-believe metric. This is a thread about reducing motion blur. YOU had to come in here and start mouthing off about how wonderful your Catleaps are, and how they trivialize any possible advantage these new TNs have. Good for you. Now be quiet about how great your monitors are and lets get the thread back on topic.
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Its not my opinon its SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATION backed by consensus of others who have tested the same displays. You have not tested shit, thus YOU are talking out of your ass, THUS YOUR OPINON means JACK SQUAT.

The topic involves the IPS 120hz displays, because there is a possibility that they can be modified to strobe like the lightboost TNs do. And if that can be done they will be even more amazing. Stop being so closed minded for Gods sake.
 
not likely any time soon and not with existing hardware from what I understand. But like I said, if its a few years down the road even I'd definitely be interested if its crt-like essentially zero blur.

Mark Rejhon said:
Agreed. Although 120Hz TN (non-LightBoost, too) has less motion blur than 120Hz IPS, 120Hz IPS still has less motion blur than 60Hz IPS. The pixels on IPS cannot transition fast enough to be an exact halving of motion blur from 60Hz->120Hz, but there IS a reduction of motion blur from 60Hz->120Hz IPS. Just not as much as the blur reduction from 60Hz->120Hz TN, due to the slower IPS pixel response.

If a strobe backlight is a sequential scanning backlight (like those used in some existing high-end HDTV's), the LED's can flash in sync, in a top-to-bottom scanning fashion, then you don't need to wait for the pixel persistence to finish in the VSYNC. As long as some part of the display has adequately refreshed while keeping other parts of the display (still refreshing) in the dark. The disadvantage of a sequential scanning backlight is much more complexity in the electronics, and backlight diffusion (on-segments of backlight leaking into off-segments of backlight). So that puts a limit on motion blur reduction.

However, it should be possible to reduce motion blur on IPS displays by another approximately 50-75%, using a good sequential scanning backlight. You just won't get the 94% motion blur reduction (over a LCD 60Hz display) that a 1ms strobe backlight would provide. (94% comes from 1ms versus 16.67ms), at least not until IPS speeds up and uses response-time acceleration (with its disadvantages alas, it is also an ingredient that allows 3D and zero motion blur to be possible). Some IPS HDTV's work with shutter glasses, so it's possible to make IPS fast enough. It just has not arrived on computer-monitor sized panels.

Click the link: strobed/scanning backlights in existing high-end HDTV's. You'll see that IPS 3D HDTV's exist, and with scanning backlights too -- strobe backlights in your home theater display, combined with IPS -- already here today. But, alas, they are not videogame-friendly because they use motion interpolation, and they don't reduce motion blur nearly as much as LightBoost does. But if you like the Motionflow effect, then you'll probably like, say, the Elite(tm) LCD HDTV, a high-end flanker brand by Sharp Electronics -- it is one of the best LED backlight LCD HDTV's out there, using IPS LCD technology, and provides the zero-motion-blur effect during video material (At least video material taken with fast shutter speed), if you don't mind the motion interpolation being combined with a scanning backlight. It even has local dimming, which means it turns off LED's behind parts of the display that are black. Alas, not very video game friendly, it has lots of input lag, and it costs several thousand dollars.

But a lot of the technology could be transferred to a computer monitor, in a low-input-lag manner. It's definitely technically doable, given the right panel and electronis, as well as backlight.
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If the lightboost2 reports are accurate, then as far as I'm concerned they make any comparisons of 1440p ips 120hz+ and 1080p non-lightboost2 120hz+ panel's blur reductions moot.

elvn said:
Thats not the story I'm talking about though. I'm talking about lightboost2 TNs leaving both 120hz non-lightboost2 TN's and 1440p ips's a blurry mess in the rearview for a gaming monitor as far as I'm concerned, assuming the reports of the 94% ~ "crt-like clarity" and essentially zero blur reported by so many are correct. They aren't talking about half as much blur as 60hz -yet-still-a-mess, or a higher rez 1440 but a little worse than the "half of the blur-yet-still-a-mess" reduction.. they are talking about essentially fully clear readability of text, texture, objects/scene elements with if anything, a subtle ghost after effect/shadow that doesn't smudge any of the original material.I'm hoping to get the XL2411T or similar and a nvidia card sometime this coming year (perhaps after tax return).
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Forgive me if this has been answered before, but:

would it be possible to reduce the refresh rate of the monitor (and the strobing frequency) to something easier to maintain for the graphics card (like 100 or 85 Hz)? If so, one could simply adjust the refresh rate depending on graphics hardware capabilities and enjoy judder-free gameplay. Until around 70 Hz or so where flickering would probably become apparent.
 
Sadly 100Hz is as low as it will go. (but still works well)

I guess most people that used a CRT played on 85Hz.
Another 15 fps is not a really big deal number wise... but, after so many years of 60Hz LCD most games are made with 60fps in mind. Getting 100 or 120 consistent fps is rather hard these days in most games.

My 660ti and E8500 can't handle many games. Sure I'll upgrade the CPU, but I don't expect large improvements.
I mean I can't even play titan quest, borderlands, dota 2, starcraft 2, civilization 4 and many others because I cannot get 100/120fps. I would have to dial the graphics settings down. (and I'm already using no more than 2-4xAA, no occlusion, no high quality shadows or very high shader settings...)

I am mostly confined to indie games, older shooters and rare optimized games.

This Lightboost/CRT thing is great only when you're hitting the exact framerate.
Lose more than 1 fps -> stuttering.
Lost half your fps (vsync) -> no stuttering -> double image (blurs)
Drop below half -> stuttering & double/tripple images

What would be really awesome is if nVidia would provide a black frame insertion mode...
Then we could basically have a 60Hz CRT... would it flicker real bad? I don't know.
But I'm guessing many games might become a pleasure to play.
 
l88bastard said:
HOWEVER, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 1080P and 1440P is HUGE....FUCKING HUGE!!!!! When you weigh the pros and cons of both against each other, the 120hz 1440p IPS panels STOMP the 120hz TNs a new mud hole for gaming...even competetive FPS gaming.
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Can we leave the 1080p vs 1440p debate elsewhere please. For slow games there is benefit to higher res. This entire thread is about a technology that primarily benefits twitch shooters. Many professional gamers use well below 1080p, some opting for a nice blocky 800x600. For this reason no-one here really cares how great the catleap looks at 1440p.


Its not my opinon its SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATION backed by consensus of others who have tested the same displays.
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Names? I've counted maybe 5 of us that have tried the majority of displays out there. Those that have used LightBoost too place it close to CRT levels of motion clarity. The catleap gets nowhere near.

The topic involves the IPS 120hz displays, because there is a possibility that they can be modified to strobe like the lightboost TNs do. And if that can be done they will be even more amazing. Stop being so closed minded for Gods sake.
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Short of taking your monitor apart and rewiring/soldering new components, such a modification is not possible. Besides which it has been said multiple times that the pixel response time of IPS is too slow to make a lightboost hack worth doing. There would be almost zero improvement in motion clarity.
 
sadbuttrue said:
Short of taking your monitor apart and rewiring/soldering new components, such a modification is not possible. Besides which it has been said multiple times that the pixel response time of IPS is too slow to make a lightboost hack worth doing. There would be almost zero improvement in motion clarity.
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Hehe I think some are more than willing to take that step :p

That said, I am really loving this development, even if it means I drop to 1080P for the moment. Early adopters usually get the short-end once the tech is more developed, but the enthusiasm of evangelism can't be understated either haha.

Transsive - good point on the 100Hz actually. I run either 96Hz or 120Hz on my Catleap, since only 96Hz clocks down on my 580 (the assumption that GTX670's have no problem doing 120Hz and clocking down). I'm actually very happy with 96Hz as it is, so I would be more than happy with Lightboost with those numbers for the motion clarity as well.
 
sadbuttrue said:
Besides which it has been said multiple times that the pixel response time of IPS is too slow to make a lightboost hack worth doing. There would be almost zero improvement in motion clarity.
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And why would there be "almost zero improvement in motion clarity"?

It would depend on how the hack is done. If brightness is sufficient and you time the strobe/refresh with pixel response time I don't see why you would not get crt like motion qualities on an IPS panel. Yes TN at high refresh rates (>120) is more desirable for strobe backlighting because of low pixel persistence. But if an IPS panel has a pixel time of 10ms, then 100hz + strobe should be just as clear as 100hz TN + strobe.

I'm taking apart an old 120hz TN and I will hook up a pwm straight to the built-in leds to see if their brightness will suit my needs (only need 120cd/m2). Just have read/learn a bit more before buying some basic components to get the ball rolling.
 
Druneau said:
It would depend on how the hack is done. If brightness is sufficient and you time the strobe/refresh with pixel response time I don't see why you would not get crt like motion qualities on an IPS panel. Yes TN at high refresh rates (>120) is more desirable for strobe backlighting because of low pixel persistence.
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You meant "Yes, TN is more desirable for strobe backlight because of lower pixel persistence, and high refresh rates >120 is more desirable when you want strobing to appear as flicker-free as possible while keeping the zero motion blur effect".

Pixels do not transition faster at 60Hz than at 120Hz, so you actually have more strobe safety margin (pixel persistence is 2ms out of 16ms) at 60Hz, than at 120Hz (pixel persistence is 2ms out of 8ms). One problem with lower refresh rates is fewer strobes per second, so if strobes are kept the same length, the picture will become darker and more flickery. But there's no limitation to doing a lower refresh rate -- LightBoost was originally designed for 3D shutter glasses and the zero motion blur effect is probably a secondary consideration for nVidia, and so they kept a minimum of 100Hz.

I'm taking apart an old 120hz TN and I will hook up a pwm straight to the built-in leds to see if their brightness will suit my needs (only need 120cd/m2). Just have read/learn a bit more before buying some basic components to get the ball rolling.
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Don't forget LCD glass absorbs more than 90% of light. You need essentially about 150 watts per square feet to equal the brightness of a normal computer monitor, for 1ms strobes. LED's can be safely surged to approximately 3X brightness for short strobes (overvoltage/overcurrent) if you follow the LED specifications carefully, so you may get 150 watts of light surges of 50 watts of LED. I've posted an entry on my blog about this. Also, I now think that a turbocharged edgelight is easier than a turbocharged backlight -- because diffusing the backlight is extremely difficult, while you can keep an LED's existing backlight as

As you already know, The BlurBusters Blog is already working on a strobed backlight, but I'm deciding which approach I'd like to do -- I may either use a sequential scanning backlight on an IPS panel (because LightBoost already is a 'solved problem' for TN panels) or try to create a better strobed backlight (<1ms, ability to do 60Hz) that LightBoost isn't currently doing, by using a souped-up edgelight approach.

IPS isn't "worthless" to add a strobed backlight to, just "impractically expensive" -- e.g. doubles or triples the cost of an IPS monitor to do a more complicated sequential scanning backlight, since sequential scanning backlights (also used in some HDTV's) work better than strobed backlights for slower-persistence panels, since the strobing can follow in a roughly line-based fashion on already-refreshed regions of LCD, rather than trying to ensure the whole screen is fully refreshed at once. Big disadvantage is backlight diffusion between on-segments versus off-segments of panels. My design involves 16 segments, from a design I sketched almost three months ago, before I discovered LightBoost.

The massive (yes, "massive" is what some people like me and Vega said) improvement in motion clarity that exists with LightBoost (85% for 2ms strobes, 94% for 1ms strobes) may be only halved (~75%) with an IPS panel + sequential scanning backlight, at roughly more than double cost. (BTW, certain of us also have IPS and CRT displays, and we know what each display is really good for. Also, a niche market of some competition gamers do not care as much about color as the massive improvement in motion clarity.)

Also, take pictures of your construction. The BlurBusters Blog will be happy to blog photos of strobed-backlight monitor hacks. :)
 
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For me its not just about scoring/accuracy... I find smeared out high detail textures and depth via bumpmapping, nameplates, etc.. and all of the scene basically blurring extremely annoying during FoV movement. I know what an fw900 looks like and lcds , even "1/2 as much blur" or "nearly so "(ips) of 120hz non-lightboost lcds is nothing compared to full readability of texture, text and full scene clarity during FoV movemement. Even 70% would be blurring and not truly readable. These blur reductions rather than essentially full clarity are more like soften blur effects that stick closer to the shadow mask of an object so to speak, but that still makes for a fuzzy/blurry, unreadable detail mess during FoV movement. If crt-like , essentially full scene motion clarity is available on a gaming lcd I will definitely be upgrading to it sometime in the future, and I think it makes the 50% +/- blur reduction of non-lightboost2 TN vs ips argument moot as far as I'm concerned. Blurry lcds vs clear is no contest imo.
 
Mark Rejhon said:
You meant "Yes, TN is more desirable for strobe backlight because of lower pixel persistence, and high refresh rates >120 is more desirable when you want strobing to appear as flicker-free as possible while keeping the zero motion blur effect".

Pixels do not transition faster at 60Hz than at 120Hz, so you actually have more strobe safety margin (pixel persistence is 2ms out of 16ms) at 60Hz, than at 120Hz (pixel persistence is 2ms out of 8ms). One problem with lower refresh rates is fewer strobes per second, so if strobes are kept the same length, the picture will become darker and more flickery. But there's no limitation to doing a lower refresh rate -- LightBoost was originally designed for 3D shutter glasses and the zero motion blur effect is probably a secondary consideration for nVidia, and so they kept a minimum of 100Hz.

Don't forget LCD glass absorbs more than 90% of light. You need essentially about 150 watts per square feet to equal the brightness of a normal computer monitor, for 1ms strobes. LED's can be safely surged to approximately 3X brightness for short strobes (overvoltage/overcurrent) if you follow the LED specifications carefully, so you may get 150 watts of light surges of 50 watts of LED. I've posted an entry on my blog about this. Also, I now think that a turbocharged edgelight is easier than a turbocharged backlight -- because diffusing the backlight is extremely difficult, while you can keep an LED's existing backlight as

As you already know, The BlurBusters Blog is already working on a strobed backlight, but I'm deciding which approach I'd like to do -- I may either use a sequential scanning backlight on an IPS panel (because LightBoost already is a 'solved problem' for TN panels) or try to create a better strobed backlight (<1ms, ability to do 60Hz) that LightBoost isn't currently doing, by using a souped-up edgelight approach.

IPS isn't "worthless" to add a strobed backlight to, just "impractically expensive" -- e.g. doubles or triples the cost of an IPS monitor to do a more complicated sequential scanning backlight, since sequential scanning backlights (also used in some HDTV's) work better than strobed backlights for slower-persistence panels, since the strobing can follow in a roughly line-based fashion on already-refreshed regions of LCD, rather than trying to ensure the whole screen is fully refreshed at once. Big disadvantage is backlight diffusion between on-segments versus off-segments of panels. My design involves 16 segments, from a design I sketched almost three months ago, before I discovered LightBoost.

The massive (yes, "massive" is what some people like me and Vega said) improvement in motion clarity that exists with LightBoost (85% for 2ms strobes, 94% for 1ms strobes) may be only halved (~75%) with an IPS panel + sequential scanning backlight, at roughly more than double cost. (BTW, certain of us also have IPS and CRT displays, and we know what each display is really good for. Also, a niche market of some competition gamers do not care as much about color as the massive improvement in motion clarity.)

Also, take pictures of your construction. The BlurBusters Blog will be happy to blog photos of strobed-backlight monitor hacks. :)
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I've noticed motion blur for myself is much more noticeable during slow panning, smooth scrolling text etc versus actual "FPS" type game play. I've found that I don't really do a whole lot of panning or smooth viewing when I play an FPS. The blur reduction in the way I play just wasn't enough for me to give up the 130 Hz Catleap for 1080P TN. I play more akin to a "snappy/jerky" quick play-style with the view as you can see me here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovm7XBtaQAM

Granted, motion blur reduction is always good but the trade-offs to get it with 1080P TN panels is just too great. That is why I am really looking forward to you work on scanning IPS. You may not get the massive 90+% boost in motion blur reduction you get with Lightboost2 TN's, but even 50% would be great with IPS. I am sure there is a great demand for it as resolution and picture quality needs are surpassing 1080P TN panel capability as time goes on.
 
Vega said:
I've noticed motion blur for myself is much more noticeable during slow panning, smooth scrolling text etc versus actual "FPS" type game play. I've found that I don't really do a whole lot of panning or smooth viewing when I play an FPS. The blur reduction in the way I play just wasn't enough for me to give up the 130 Hz Catleap for 1080P TN. I play more akin to a "snappy/jerky" quick play-style with the view as you can see me here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovm7XBtaQAM
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http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039465540&postcount=40
 
Vega's playstyle is a "workaround" vs blur as I've said before - whether he started doing it because it fit his skill-style or not. Peronsally I hate blur and like having complete freedom of movement.

The ways I've seen people "workaround" , "attempt to ignore" , or pretend to be oblivious to it are flick-FoV movement from A-to-B in an attempt to "blink" past the FoV arc motion that smears every time, otherwise they just try to ignore and not pay attention during the FoV movement, trying not to register vision during it at all... or you let your locked on eye focus strain at the textures and texture-depth via bump mapping that smear out during each FoV movement, since your eyes always try to focus away blur (I know mine do). Its most annoying on the highest detail extreme textured games.
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