VA without contrast shift, no modern panels like Samsung 213T

enjay

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I switched from a Samsung 213T, produced 10/2003, to a new NEC PA241W. Colors are way better of course, contrast is lower though, and I had to fix backlight bleeding on the upper left by inserting some pieces of cardboard between the panel and its metal case (worked fine). Also I am seeing some faint DLP-type flicker effect on vertical lines when moving my eyes, result of FRC?

What I wonder though: the old 213T with its VA panel hat no "black crush" (shifting contrast depending on angle) whatsoever. It was like having the advantages of IPS and VA together. Of course that screen had no color management and no proper color reproduction out of the box either, plus it was quite expensive at its time (2200 MRSP). Also, it had slow refresh and no overdrive. But with modern electronics and color management, this would be one killer screen.

Does anyone know what is different with this old panel? I couldn't find any info about VA panels without the said problem; as far as the net reports, they don't exist .. but I've seen it with my very eyes.
 
I switched from a Samsung 213T, produced 10/2003, to a new NEC PA241W. Colors are way better of course, contrast is lower though,.

Your eyes are lying. Contrast for the Samsung was ~500:1. Contrast for modern IPS is like the PA241W is ~1000:1. Likely it is either the screen coating, or a steeper gamma curve making you think the contrast is better on the Samsung

There were a couple of PVA monitor that had lower color/contrast shift that typical years ago, but they were not completely devoid of this issue, and they had no better contrast than IPS. IIRC the last 27" PVA from Samsung had similar reduced color/contrast shift.

MVA screens have always been quite high in shift. PVA has all but disappeared as Samsung moved it's high end lineup to PLS(Samsungs version of IPS).

So I doubt you will ever find another low shift PVA screen.
 
Well, black levels of the old display are certainly better. Contrast can be much lower than the specified value on color managed displays when setting them to accurate colors. I am using the sRGB preset and ColorComp at setting 4 of 5. And of it doesn't have an A-TW polarizer.
I might take photos some time to compare it.

Anyway it's too bad that such panels are not built anymore.
 
Well, black levels of the old display are certainly better. Contrast can be much lower than the specified value on color managed displays when setting them to accurate colors. I am using the sRGB preset and ColorComp at setting 4 of 5. And of it doesn't have an A-TW polarizer.
I might take photos some time to compare it.

Anyway it's too bad that such panels are not built anymore.

If you like running at very low brightness, the contrast will suffer on your NEC:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/nec_pa241w.htm#contrast_stability

If that is the case you would have been better off with an LED backlit monitor, like this:
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/content/nec_p232w.htm#contrast_stability

As far as the loss with the old Samsung. What exactly is lost?
 
What I wonder though: the old 213T with its VA panel hat no "black crush" (shifting contrast depending on angle) whatsoever. It was like having the advantages of IPS and VA together. Of course that screen had no color management and no proper color reproduction out of the box either, plus it was quite expensive at its time (2200 MRSP). Also, it had slow refresh and no overdrive. But with modern electronics and color management, this would be one killer screen.

Does anyone know what is different with this old panel? I couldn't find any info about VA panels without the said problem; as far as the net reports, they don't exist .. but I've seen it with my very eyes.

I have a monitor with a similar panel (later version, which was found on the 214), on an Eizo monitor here. There is contrast shift. But... it's not really a problem, and only noticeable if you look at angles you normally wouldn't use.

I think the reason you don't see it in the 213 (and why I don't see it), is because these are 4:3 displays. Stretch them out to 24"-27", 16:9 and horizontal shift comes into play more.

As for black levels, It is possible that your new NEC has worse black levels, but it really shouldn't. Only thing I can think of is using s-rgb mode + antiglare grain + IPS glow + colorcomp may be affecting things. You have no choice as for most of those, but if you can do without colorcomp, I'd recommend turning it off. It does lower contrast/luminance somewhat.

And if you prefer the older VA models, NEC makes a C-PVA panel (22-23" I think) and you could always go for an older manufacturer refurb 2470 if you really wanted (no LUT though).
 
I couldn't find any info about VA panels without the said problem; as far as the net reports, they don't exist .. but I've seen it with my very eyes.

Here you go: www.benq.com/product/monitor/gw2760hs

Color Shift-free Technology

Enjoy perfect skin tone and image color presentation from a wide-viewing angle of 178°/178°! The all new Color Shift-free Technology reduces the visibility of color washout, or color shift, between normal and oblique viewing angles, giving you consistent color uniformity and true color definition from left, right, above and below.
 
I wouldn't take such claims by BenQ at face value until they are properly reviewed.

Just in the same way some monitors have 1000000:1 contrast*

Perhaps it's better with color shift than current VA panels, you never know... but I never just assume what a manufacturer says is actually true.





*dynamic made up marketing numbers
 
what are you going on about? Benq clearly separates native and dynamic contrast rations in their product spec sheets. Not to mention many Benq VA monitors were already reviewed and they proved to have amazing contrast ratio, way beyond anything that's possible on TN or IPS.
 
Are those contrast numbers calculated between 2 far away pixels/squares of pixels?
Is there any measurement between 2 nearby pixels? As this is where you need the contrast, to make text reading easier on your eyes...
 
what are you going on about? Benq clearly separates native and dynamic contrast rations in their product spec sheets. Not to mention many Benq VA monitors were already reviewed and they proved to have amazing contrast ratio, way beyond anything that's possible on TN or IPS.

Have you seen any of those manufacturers stating their contrast at an "usable" amount of light(cd)? If people generally use their LCD at 80 cd at home, and 120-150 at work, depending on the amount of ambient light, then I really think that the only contrast that matters is the one between 80 and 150.
Is a nice attitude from the manufacturers that started to come with native contrast ratios, but they better have it constant at all levels of brightness, as it doesn't help to have 3000:1 native contrast at 200 cd, and only 500:1 at 80-150 cd. Isn't it?
Just like with PWM, having 100 brightness no PWM. How does that help if you can't use your monitor at 100% brightness as the amount of light is overkill?
 
Benq VA monitors has some of the most stable contrast ratio across all brightness levels.

mpCv0.png
 
what are you going on about? Benq clearly separates native and dynamic contrast rations in their product spec sheets. Not to mention many Benq VA monitors were already reviewed and they proved to have amazing contrast ratio, way beyond anything that's possible on TN or IPS.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, or took it too literally. I didn't mean it in relation to BenQ's monitors not having good contrast levels. I just meant it as a general statement that monitor manufacturers quite often state fake numbers, or 'features' that don't really exist. In BenQ's case, their VA panels have excellent contrast, even at lower brightness levels. But also keep in mind they also listed most of their panels at 5000:1, not 3000:1. Again, I'm not saying this to emphasize anything about contrast per se, just that manufacturers bend the truth.

Now, you may be right, BenQ's newer panels may have some new Color Shift-free Technology ... or it's exactly the same as always, and they are using that phrase simply to increase sales. It's best to wait until Prad or TFT central give reviews and we'll see. It would be pretty cool if actually true.
 
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I need Colorcomp, otherwise there is a slight green shift at the left side.
To clarify, I'm fairly content with the NEC, it's not bad at all. I just wish it was possible to get a panel with the 213T's quality and modern electronics. I think it's strange that this VA panel technology was discontinued. You can distinguish RGB 0 from 1 when looking at the 213T directly from the front (90°), while all the modern VAs I know crush blacks.
Something must be fundamentally different about that type of panel, but I couldn't find any info, so it's kinda mysterious.
 
Well, again, I have the panel that came after yours, and don't really notice blacks getting crushed on it. The 244 should be similar, just in big 24" form. The difference vs modern panels may simply come down to A-MVA vs S-PVA. Different pixel structure, made by different companies.... they may both be VAs, but it doesn't mean they are exactly the same.

@XTF How is color shift on that monitor? Any black crush?

They have made S-PVA panels at 24", with decent electronics, but if you want hardware calibration I think you'd have to go with an Eizo S-PVA (expensive).

Two weaknesses of S-PVA, regardless of electronics used : slower response times than IPS panels, and somewhat blurrier text due to pixel structure/cleartype. It may be a wash as far as text goes, however, if your IPS has an aggressive AG coating.
 
What I wonder though: the old 213T with its VA panel hat no "black crush" (shifting contrast depending on angle) whatsoever.
Those are two different issues. "Black crush" is when dark, near-black colors cannot be differentiated from black. Some VA monitors (like my Samsung 2333T) have a pretty serious problem with black crush, while on others it is not a significant issue. This problem can be corrected by an ICC profile, so it's really not even an issue for someone who will be profiling the monitor.

The contrast shift issue with VA monitors, which can be witnessed by viewing the monitor off-angle, is a separate and non-correctable problem.

You can distinguish RGB 0 from 1 when looking at the 213T directly from the front (90°), while all the modern VAs I know crush blacks.
Something must be fundamentally different about that type of panel, but I couldn't find any info, so it's kinda mysterious.
I was under the impression that the newer VA monitors didn't really have that problem anymore. I calibrated a Samsung 650 not too long ago, and I don't recall it crushing blacks -- certainly not to the same degree as my older 2333T. PRAD's review also indicates that black crush is no more than a minor issue on the 650.
 
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