Opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Windows 8 Sales Well Below Projections, Plenty of Blame to Go Around
- Thread starter heatlesssun
- Start date
Opinions are like assholes everyone has one.
What does this have to do with it? You were 'told' to use the start menu in Win 7, and you weren't complaining about being told what to do then. Which means, it's not being told what to do that irks you, it's that MS doesn't do things the way you want. Don't know what to tell you since I like the new way.
dr.stevil
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 9,266
It would be useful for me too if it was possible to monitor them through the desktop (where I'd be doing most of my work). I dont see why they didnt include the ability to pin live tiles to the desktop (or like I've said in the past, make the legacy apps run on top of the start screen instead of a dedicated 'desktop' that's detached from the rest of the OS)
Gilbert_pwns
Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2010
- Messages
- 759
Why would I want an OS designed for mobile devices on my desktop? Nothing was wrong with 7 so why upgrade?
Just some things to consider.
Just some things to consider.
Tsumi
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2010
- Messages
- 13,757
What did 7 offer over Vista after it got its service packs? Combined icons (was annoying to many)? TRIM, in an age where most computers did not have SSDs, and today with hardware garbage collection being more of a norm?
Fact: Most people don't upgrade their OS. Most people get a new OS when they buy a new computer.
For your information, I use an Android phone and an Android tablet. Both are rooted with CyanogenMod.
I said Microsoft wanted a sense of continuity. Nowhere did I say that was a good reason, and I have repeated this MULTIPLE TIMES. I'M JUST EXPLAINING THEIR REASONING, WHICH YOU CAN'T SEEM TO GET THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.
And Microsoft did leave an on/off switch for x86 users, it's called allowing the use of third-party programs.
Also, by your reasoning, Microsoft also forced the Start Menu on us. But they also left customization open, allowing you to install things like Rainmeter.
So I tried Win8 for the first time yesterday. I'm sure it's fine under the hood, but that metro interface... Jeez it's bad. I know we all hate change and all, but - well that's why the sales suck. Period. It's just not nice to look at, it's not intuitive, and I feel like the desktop was turned into something less computer like. I couldn't even figure out how to make it go away and get to the desktop.
You can argue that:
1) it's awesome under the hood
2) I'll get used to metro
3) it's no more work than it is now with win 7
And you'd probably be right. But, I don't like it. People are opinionated - just the way we all are. And I don't think most people will like it. And that my friends is just bad business - people will use another option because - you know, they can... I just can't fathom why there isn't a "make it work like it used to" button (and yes I realize there probably is one - but why is it so hidden? And I really don't like things shoved down my throat...
Even my wife (an admitted computer noob) was like "this sucks - please don't put this on my computer" I laughed and was like "ok"
That says it all I think...
If this is the future, I think I'll need to start contributing to the linux community and start using that.
You can argue that:
1) it's awesome under the hood
2) I'll get used to metro
3) it's no more work than it is now with win 7
And you'd probably be right. But, I don't like it. People are opinionated - just the way we all are. And I don't think most people will like it. And that my friends is just bad business - people will use another option because - you know, they can... I just can't fathom why there isn't a "make it work like it used to" button (and yes I realize there probably is one - but why is it so hidden? And I really don't like things shoved down my throat...
Even my wife (an admitted computer noob) was like "this sucks - please don't put this on my computer" I laughed and was like "ok"
That says it all I think...If this is the future, I think I'll need to start contributing to the linux community and start using that.
And one more thing. WHY should I put any effort in whatsoever? If people were like "the new interface is different and will take some time - BUT it's AWESOME underneath" well then, ya - I'd take the plunge. But as it is now - it's "put up with this nonsense for... the same thing as win 7" ummm, why? No thank you?
I mean I spend more on coffee every week than the cost of that OS, and I have zero desire to upgrade. I could live with it just fine I'm sure - but you can't say sales suck if you gave me no incentive to change my (admittedly) stubborn ways...
/boggle
I mean I spend more on coffee every week than the cost of that OS, and I have zero desire to upgrade. I could live with it just fine I'm sure - but you can't say sales suck if you gave me no incentive to change my (admittedly) stubborn ways...
/boggle
We can continue to debate all we want. What's undeniable is the public perception of Windows 8, and by extension Surface + Pro, is extremely negative, and continues to get worse with each review on blogs/tech sites and forums.
It'd be easy to say most of those are following the typical 'MS sucks' formula and reprinting the same article. After all, these blogs all praise Apple. But they also went crazy over Windows 7. So I don't think its the case at all, and there are plenty to legitimate sites that have criticized Win 8.
Which is not surprising at all. I think MS expects the new wave of touch devices to carry this OS and explode in popularity, and I don't see that happening in this economy. Not when their own efforts continue to get bad reviews.
The whole Win 8 product launch (OS, Surface, WP8, dev tools) is a classic example of how not to do a launch. They screwed up the messaging and marketing big time.
It'd be easy to say most of those are following the typical 'MS sucks' formula and reprinting the same article. After all, these blogs all praise Apple. But they also went crazy over Windows 7. So I don't think its the case at all, and there are plenty to legitimate sites that have criticized Win 8.
Which is not surprising at all. I think MS expects the new wave of touch devices to carry this OS and explode in popularity, and I don't see that happening in this economy. Not when their own efforts continue to get bad reviews.
The whole Win 8 product launch (OS, Surface, WP8, dev tools) is a classic example of how not to do a launch. They screwed up the messaging and marketing big time.
Well, it's been fairly well documented there are improvements from Win 7 underneath the skin. Desktop and laptop users just have to deal with MS's foray into tablets and phones. Check out the Extremetech articles to see how you can avoid Metro and get back a start button.
DeathPrincess
Fully [H]
- Joined
- May 15, 2010
- Messages
- 18,205
Homegroups etc.
yelsewshane
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2012
- Messages
- 420
Windows 8 ummm ya I got it and windows 7 duel boot on computer and fact is windows 8 could be great if they had a dam start menu like windows before it. For that reason alone it annoys me and I rarely use it. Just a shame how the morons at microsoft would not make it so you can have best of both worlds what idiots they become lol maybe Bill Gates needs to come back and slap them silly the new 8 os is a flop for just a simple thing.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Extremely negative? Extremely mixed but Windows 8 has gotten pretty solid reviews from most mainstream IT outlets like Engadget, The Verge, even Walt Mossberg was very positive about 8. The bottom line is that 8 represents a shift in focus away from the desktop and that as much as anything is why a lot of people are negative about it. But I think many people understand that Microsoft had to have some type of mobile response and that keeping Windows focused on the desktop wouldn't have much future.
But Windows 7 was released before the tablet explosion. 7 was judged solely against other versions of Windows and other desktop OSes, and Vista was well received. 8/RT is being compared to 7, a well received version of Windows, other desktop OSes and now iOS and Android. A MUCH tougher job than 7 had to do.
As much of a fanboy as I'm called I've never said this would be easy for Microsoft, and that Windows 8 could fail though it's still going to sell hundreds of millions of copies over the years counting any minor upgrade versions if those come to be.
The platform that will be the sweet spot for Windows 8 tablets and hybrids will be the Atom SoC. Very few of those designs are out right now. They are a bit expensive and the Clover Trail performance isn't stellar but it is reasonably decent and can definitely power a Windows desktop for a lot of folks. The kicker for these devices is the battery life and weight. 10 hours in only 1.5 lbs of weight for tablets. Docks look to double that weight but in the case of the HP Envy x2, the device is said by HP to get 16 hours of battery life in only 3.2lbs of weight.
Windows 8 is a moving target right now, things are going to change rapidly it looks on both the hardware and software side if Microsoft is going to a yearly update cycle. There's still a great deal we've not seen or know about.
The truth of the matter is that this has only started, we just don't know enough to have a good idea how this is really going to play out after 6 weeks.
I'm 100% sure you're right. And no, I've admittedly spent very little time looking at actual details. But I thought I read two major things: 1) super fast bootups/hibernation/sleep modes etc. and 2) some performance increases. The problem is that I have a cutting edge computer (don't we all here at [H]?) and my win 7 boot time is around 12 seconds from a complete power down. Also, with the overkill on my machine - I already run all my games at ultra uber max settings.
Here's my point. I walk into a store with an open mind. I click around with Win 8 - I'm taking it for a test drive. I encounter a strange interface that I'm sure is fine, but frankly, I found it a bit annoying. And I found nothing in my 10 minutes of poking around that said "you should buy this." If I had seen even the smallest "cool thing" I probably would have gone home with a copy (because it's so cheap). But the marketing sucked - if there are true reasons to upgrade - that message did not find it's way to my brain. So now I'm on an internet forum wondering why I should upgrade, asking questions, and yes - now I'll go do some research.
But I'm not most people! Most people are done after that 10 minute demo. Sale is lost until they upgrade their PCs and it comes pre loaded. And my whole point - is I think that experience I had, is going to hurt early Win 8 adoption.
You 've got the timing wrong. Windows 8 isn't made so that you,PC user walks in there and thinks "i shoudl buy this". Windows 8 is made for this: For one reason or another (cheap upgrade, fashion victim, tile lover, need for knowledge, bored of win7, whatever), you put Win8 on your PC.
THEN, comes what YOU SAY:
"I walk into a store with an open mind... To buy a TABLET, which i don't own. In my 10 minutes of looking around, i notice that SOME tablets, have the familiar win8 interface and this make me say "I should buy this! Why buy an unknown interface".
Remember. People who own PC or laptop, are way more than those who own tablets and other small mobile devices. So they are less prone to buy new PC, but they are ALL POTENTIAL tablet customers and if you walk in a shop and see the "familiar" Win8, chances are you will buy the tablet with MS OS.
So, you got it all wrong. Win8 isn't designed to make your life easier in the PC. It's made so that MS can grab more tablet buyers, which is the more virgin market. Desktops are already dominated by MS, tablets is the real target.
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 12,864
I am cool with what you are saying here. Personally, I love it and have us it on all my machines now, including my Windows tablet. (Acer W500) I personally would go into a store, poke around at the Android tablets and Ipads and also found nothing that said "you should buy this".
The reason I finally purchased a tablet back in May, 2012 was precisely because of Windows 8. Finally, I can have a tablet that is fun to use and a real machine to go along with it, not just what I would consider to be a toy.
Reminds me of when I was 13, my family got a new 486 with 4MBs of RAM, and like 200MBs of HDD space and VGA screen, that replaced our 286 with 1MB of RAM, 40MBs of HDD space, and EVGA screen. When this girl who was a friend of mine walked into the room, she made a remark about the computer not looking any different, as if that was what mattered. Even then I knew it was a silly sentiment.
A couple of points need to be made I think, one, is that 98% of Windows sales historically are to OEM customers, not upgrades, and these people are going to buy computers regardless of the version of Windows. And while not incredibly popular amongst techies (who imo don't understand the philosophy behind Win 8 mostly), in polls in this forum, it has gotten around 2:1 like to dislike votes. While the lack of understanding may hurt it with techie upgrades, that accounts for so small a sliver of the pie that it does not matter, and while new OEM customers may not understand the philosophy behind most of Win 8's improvements either, they will still buy it and benefit from them just the same.
It's really not a debate as to whether people are going to buy it, imo, but whether it's a worthy upgrade. And while I see it as quite worthy (especially for the upgrade price), that is at least a more understandable debate imo. I can see how someone who is technically inclined but has not done much research might say metro apps are useless, they are just desktop apps that are made for touch where most desktops have no touch, because they only see the UI difference. You kind of have to understand, that these apps are made for security and stability, they are completely sandboxed and can't corrupt, infect, or slow down the computer. Also they are supposed to be touch friendly, this encourages a large market, at the expense of some desktop UI nice-ities. In considering the benefit, think of like your family members who may not know much about computers, if they want to try new apps or games just to mess around with or complete some simple tasks, they have to venture on to the web and play the malware Russian roulette game. Even if the app/game is safe, there is a possibility that it may have bugs, or add start up ad crap, browser toolbars, extra browsers, and all sorts of random crap. Metro apps can not do any of this, they can not touch anything except there own app installation, and library files that get requested through the OS and OKed by the user. You could put your mom, or kids on there, and they could download games and apps all day, and the computer would not be affected at all. If they tried this with web apps, they'd probably ruin the OS install very quickly. Theoretically, it could enable new usage scenarios, and a form of mass computing unfamiliar to most people, where they are safe and can run and try everything they want. It's a lot of potential benefit for many users' usage scenarios, imo. Even all of this, is not the full picture, which is why I say people are not understanding the philosophy behind it, but as I said, end users don't need to, they just buy a new machine (98% of them) and get the benefits.
The start screen is just really a favorite programs launcher, and there is access to All Apps installed, if you right click the start screen and click the button at the lower right, it's really not fundamentally different than how you normally use a computer in that aspect.
wonderfield
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
- Messages
- 7,396
I don't think that really jives with reality. Most people just want the tablet that's called "iPad", and sales reflect this. They want it even in cases where it may not be the right choice. Because it's called "iPad". And now there's a $330 model, which, by Apple standards, is pretty inexpensive. "Inexpensive" and "iPad" are two words consumers like quite a lot.
The average consumer doesn't think in terms of user interface cohesion, and probably doesn't fully understand what a user interface is. I don't see them approaching tablets and saying "I know the iPad has all these great apps I've heard about, but this interface is the same as my PC's, and that's probably more important."
Which sales are you talking about? You mean the sales figures that showed the iPad dropping in market share by 15%?
http://www.techspot.com/news/50708-...-drops-15-percent-as-android-sees-growth.html
I think it's your interpretation of "reality" that's the problem here and not his.
His other insinuation regarding PC sales dropping because of saturation and being "good enough" is also backed up by the sales figures:
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4402461/Holiday-tablet-sales-expected-to-rise-60-
So, he was spot on on both accounts.
wonderfield
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2011
- Messages
- 7,396
You have a penchant for skewing statistics to make your arguments. What tablet is at ~50% market share? Windows tablets, which have been available in volume since 2002? Or iPad? Fact is: more consumers choose iPads than any other tablet. As I said earlier, sales reflect consumer demand for the iPad. In addition:
With regards to declining PC sales, I was not debating that.
From the very article you posted.
With regards to declining PC sales, I was not debating that.
Tsumi
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2010
- Messages
- 13,757
It might not jive with reality at this point in time because Windows 8 is still new, and that's why Microsoft is pushing it extremely hard to try and pull people away from iPad and Android. People see a familiar interface and might be more inclined to use it, but fact is right now barely anyone is familiar with Windows 8.
If you think about it, what does Microsoft have as leverage to get into the tablet space? Certainly not portable MP3 players, the Zune HD never sold very well. Not phones, Windows Phone 7 had very lackluster sales. Their only option to attract users, and developers (very important), is to leverage their PC dominance.
Previous Windows tablets weren't very touch friendly, requiring the use of a stylus. As demonstrated by Apple and Android, people would rather have a touchscreen friendly interface over stylus (Windows mobile) or keyboard (Blackberry).
B00nie
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,327
LOL that's an understatement to say the least! Our company had a hardware partner that provided Win based toughbooks and hardened mil-spec tablets to be used with our software. The user experience was so horrible that it made me want to gnaw my arm off after a minute of use. In the end we just used ipads instead in all the product demos, which were 100x easyer to use. The toughbooks were so hard to use that just a simple thing of typing your password to them required several tries to achieve. Hard stylus combined to the slippery glass screen was noisy and clumsy as hell as a combination. Add to that regular windows desktop and poor touch support... Needless to say the devices didn't sell. Not one.
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 12,864
So you went from hardened, physically tough tablets to fragile as glass tablets? Then clearly you did not need the former at all or you are just BSing as always.
Good catch. I didn't notice that my first read through. That does seem a bit peculiar, going from the absolute least-portable, toughest, most purpose built tablet on the market to the least durable tablet ever created. If the demos could be done on iPads, why were you using the Toughbooks in the first place?
Tsumi
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2010
- Messages
- 13,757
So basically you're saying:
Microsoft didn't have a touch friendly UI, of course the tablets failed in the consumer space.
Microsoft finally has a touch friendly UI, and you say Microsoft changed the OS to make it more touch friendly for no reason?
Give me a break, you're full of hypocrisies.
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 34,162
lollerskates
at release 7 was significantly better than vista at doing quite a few things. MS did back port a lot of the functionality into vista but it took them some time.
The reason that people *like* it has everything to do with usability. Windows 8 turned that right up on it's head in favor of a tablet based interface that is not really suitable for a *traditional* desktop where your input is not touch based...
YeuEmMaiMai
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 34,162
lol.......oh never mind...
BTW Trimble uses a combo of Windows CE (pocket PC), Vista, and 7 to run their tablets, rovers, and onboard machine control units.
Trimble > everyone else when it coms to construction GPS and they have no problems with Windows with mobile devices..... so i have to conclude that it is a user error and not an os error.
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 44,154
Please explain to me how all of the desktop programs that I use in Windows 8 work like they did in Windows 7.
The argument over the UI has to do with very little in terms of actually being productive and productivity occurs inside of programs and apps.
B00nie
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,327
Yes, we didnt't surely do demos on those devices because it made our software look clumsy and hard to use, which it is not.
It's a far better option for a company to buy 1 new 300 dollar Android tablet a week instead of using a 3000 dollar hardened device that's an absolute pain in the ass.
B00nie
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,327
Break. Microsoft still doesn't have a touch friendly UI, it has a bastardized desktop that has the worst from both sides.
Tsumi
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2010
- Messages
- 13,757
Insults and avoiding answering the question. Lends quite well to your credibility.
I have not found it to be any worse, and works quite well on a touchscreen ultrabook that I had a chance to play around with. It is most definitely NOT the worse of both worlds, as you put it. You just simply hate Windows, and found Windows 8 easier to hate on than Windows 7, hence your continuous "for fun" argumentative posts.
I have not found it to be any worse, and works quite well on a touchscreen ultrabook that I had a chance to play around with. It is most definitely NOT the worse of both worlds, as you put it. You just simply hate Windows, and found Windows 8 easier to hate on than Windows 7, hence your continuous "for fun" argumentative posts.
Last edited by a moderator:
B00nie
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2012
- Messages
- 9,327
Hahaha you got more jokes on your mind?
For you anyone who looks at windows critically seems to be a hater. If you can't love it you must hate it, right?
Tsumi
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2010
- Messages
- 13,757
Hahaha you got more jokes on your mind?
Jokes? That's rich.
This is basically the message I've been getting from your posts:
Windows sucks because it doesn't do things the way you want it to. And everyone else should think that it sucks too, because you think it sucks.
This is non-sense. I use Windows 8 on my desktop and my tablet computer. On the desktop it's equivalent to 7 in terms of productivity, usability, and gaming. On the tablet I like the OS significantly better than competing OS. The touch gestures simply work really well and it has real multitasking unlike iOS and Android.
The gestures suck, sometimes they work sometimes they don't I have no problem multtasking in android. Then again Metro has shit for multitasking. Android and Metro are not multitasking oriented so multtasking on either platform is laughable. Using desktop on tablet is painful.