Whos buying a a W8 Tablet?

Which W8 Tablet?

  • Windows RT

    Votes: 37 14.5%

  • Windows 8

    Votes: 28 10.9%

  • Windows 8 Pro

    Votes: 114 44.5%

  • None

    Votes: 105 41.0%
  • Total voters
    256
wonderfield said:
Yes, you can. The degree of relevance to typical user experiences is contingent on what is tested.
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I don't know of a synthetic benchmark that measures the performance of digital ink on a tablet. That is a pretty critical piece of performance on a device like this.
 
I won't be buying one of these stupid windows tablets. Really win8 and rt are a huge clusterf**k (IMHO)
 
Impulse said:
Frankly I think you two just keep bickering with each other on all these threads rather pointlessly, you may not even be having the same argument. "Old Atoms" is a really broad/vague generalization.

People comparing an Ativ or any Win 8 device against an old netbook could be comparing it with anything from a first gen single core Atom with some of the most terribad graphic drivers ever (and 1GB of RAM + a 5400 rpm drive) to a later model dual core with a discrete NV GPU (and 2GB of RAM, etc.). That's a very large range of performance, add flash storage (as most tablets/convertibles do) and a bunch of Win 8 optimizations and you further muddle the comparison, though that's not anything you can't add to an old netbook.
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Which is why I specifically mentioned two older Atom devices by name that I've Windows 8 running on, the HP Slate 500 and Asus Eee PC 1000H.

Impulse said:
I don't think anyone can deny that if you're doing something decidedly CPU-bound then Clover Trail is really no faster than any other Atom. It's not gonna encode a video or compile code any faster. Improved GPU/drivers might make the UI seem smoother and it might help with video/flash playback but that doesn't make it an inherently faster device. All the arguing about feel etc is pretty subjective to exactly what two devices/configurations you're comparing. My 4 year old (5? don't remember anymore) Aspire One feels very different in use after a half gig RAM upgrade and a crappy 40GB SSD, doesn't mean it's any faster at most tasks.
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But this is a tablet which a touch and pen interface. I web pages that don't flick scroll or pinch zoom smoothly is a big issue with these devices. A synthetic benchmark simply can't tell you these things, "feel" is critical in these situations and these are very common situations for this kind of device.
 
pelo said:
They should never be taken as the sole determining factor of a processor's performance, though, especially when it's possible to couple those synthetic benchmarks with real world applications and software that the chip will be pitted against. But what you don't feel inclined to mention is that these too can be benchmarked. Render times in Photoshop CS6 can be run on both chips. 7-Zip, Winzip, Blender, flash-based web sites and CPU usage, can all be run and tested with scores taken down.
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But here's the thing, this is a touch and pen capable tablet. Yes, you can benchmark these things and get a general idea but that benchmark won't tell you for instance how well drawing with a pen in Photoshop actually works.

You like to deride "feel" as something that has little meaning, but "feel" is extremely important in this kind of device, it's not a desktop or laptop and when touching something and not getting feedback occurs, it's a real killer in the performance, it's just the same a clicking on buttons with a mouse on desktop.

Indeed that was a huge issue for me with the HP Slate 500 with Windows 8, it just didn't "feel" smooth. I understand that there's factors such as drivers and firmware that are probably a big part of this, nonetheless my original statement still stands. The difference between in performance between the Ativ 500 and the other two Atom devices I have running Windows 8 is night and day. I would never use those other devices over the Ativ. Never. There's no point.
 
I'm aware of that, but instead of pointing that out the discussion between you and pelo invariably boils down to much more vague statements as he argues Clover Trail isn't any faster and you argue it is because it feels faster, across several threads now. It's like he's screaming the sky is still blue and you're screaming back that during a sunset it looks pretty. You two keep having the same argument yet you're arguing about completely different things.

Edit: Oh and you're both perpetuating it... The comparison against older netbooks or even older tablets just seems completely irrelevant regardless. Very few people in the market for these things have owned any kind of Windows tablet before, and a netbook is several hundred dollars cheaper because they skimp on things like display, storage, etc.
 
Impulse said:
I'm aware of that, but instead of pointing that out the discussion between you and pelo invariably boils down to much more vague statements as he argues Clover Trail isn't any faster and you argue it is because it feels faster, across several threads now. It's like he's screaming the sky is still blue and you're screaming back that during a sunset it looks pretty. You two keep having the same argument yet you're arguing about completely different things.
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But it's more than feel. I can load web pages on an HP Slate 500 and Ativ 500 and when I try to flick through it on the HP it lags and stutters almost invariably. On the Ativ it is almost always invariably smooth. The difference is night and day, it's beyond obvious. It feels faster because it IS faster. This one of the most basic and common tasks that people do on a computer.

And I am not saying that that it's all due to absolute CPU power and I understand other factors are in play but the difference is so stark that no one would even bother looking at a benchmark after seeing the actually results with their own eyes.
 
OldPueblo said:
Paul Thurrot noted atom hater is exploring its performance with clover trail. Watch for part two.

http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-8-architecture-wars-part-1-clover-trail-vs-arm
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Everything but gaming and battery life was I/O related. That's not an SoC review. Secondly, it's not a review of performance across similar hardware and comparison to the older Atoms.

Clover Trails I/O being faster than the Tegra 3 isn't a shocking revelation, as anyone who's seen the Medfield reviews has seen the same thing. The two SoCs use the same I/O subsystem (Clover Trail is a slightly lower clocked Medfield with 2 cores and 4 threads)
 
pelo said:
Everything but gaming and battery life was I/O related. That's not an SoC review. Secondly, it's not a review of performance across similar hardware and comparison to the older Atoms.

Clover Trails I/O being faster than the Tegra 3 isn't a shocking revelation, as anyone who's seen the Medfield reviews has seen the same thing. The two SoCs use the same I/O subsystem (Clover Trail is a slightly lower clocked Medfield with 2 cores and 4 threads)
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I never said it was, but when you review a car do you only talk about the engine? Its going to be informative regardless.
 
Partially informative, sure. We now know the I/O subsystem isn't gimped in Clover Trail and it's better than Tegra 3. But comparing them side by side with *only* the I/O subsystem isn't a review, it's a half-assed attempt to disregard the rest of the performance.

It's akin to taking a system with a SATA II SSD and comparing it to a system with a SATA III SSD, having the two systems run different operating systems and then claiming that the launch times and boot times are faster but not running anything else. And then here's the conclusion:

While comparing a single Clover Trail-based device to a single ARM-based device is admittedly not much of a sample size, the ease at which this Samsung ATIV Smart PC matched or exceeded Surface with Windows RT across the board suggests that my initial impressions of these platforms were correct. That is, given comparable battery life and performance, it’s unclear to me why anyone would choose a Windows RT-based system, in general, over a comparable Clover Trail-based system, since the latter has full compatibility with Windows 8 software and hardware.
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Informative?

Look at this gem:

Of course, “comparable” is subjective. The ATIV Smart PC is plastic, and bigger than the Surface, which is made of metal and nicely designed
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meaning the temperatures are going to be lower as heat dissipation in a larger size is easier and the plastic doesn't transfer that heat as readily as a metal (anyone with a MacBook Pro can tell you how that works). Given Surface RT's magnesium backing, which doubles as a heatsink and allows for its smaller size, but that isn't mentioned.

My intent here wasn’t to compare these devices so much as their architectures,
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:eek:
 
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pelo said:
Roughly 3x the performance with the i3 and the graphics performance should be even higher.

Take a look at my two threads in this mobile computing forum outlining the architectures and performance of AMD's Temash/Kabini and Intel's Clover Trail Atom SoCs. These guys aren't lying when they tell you it's the same netbook performance of old. If you stick to lightweight Metro applications it should do well, but if you stray and start popping open 5-6 flash websites and play a 1080p video, expect the Atom to beg for its life.
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hmm, maybe I'll try and get a used i3 win8 tablet then. something used should probably reach my $600 budget.

what other i3 tablets like the acer W700 are out there or coming?
 
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Gabe3 said:
what other i3 tablets like the acer W700 are out there or coming?
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None that I am aware of at the moment. For now I think most of the OEMs are working to get their Clover Trail devices out to market for the holidays, Intel is apparently having some production issues and OEMs aren't getting enough supply which is why there are so few devices currently.
 
robo_bee said:
I won't be buying one of these stupid windows tablets. Really win8 and rt are a huge clusterf**k (IMHO)
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1) Make a vauge statment.
2) Make it the worst ever.
3) No facts, links, or support to number 1 and 2.
4) Stating its your opinion based on your gut feeling.


Cool troll bro......
 
pelo said:
Partially informative, sure. We now know the I/O subsystem isn't gimped in Clover Trail and it's better than Tegra 3. But comparing them side by side with *only* the I/O subsystem isn't a review, it's a half-assed attempt to disregard the rest of the performance.

It's akin to taking a system with a SATA II SSD and comparing it to a system with a SATA III SSD, having the two systems run different operating systems and then claiming that the launch times and boot times are faster but not running anything else. And then here's the conclusion:



Informative?

Look at this gem:



meaning the temperatures are going to be lower as heat dissipation in a larger size is easier and the plastic doesn't transfer that heat as readily as a metal (anyone with a MacBook Pro can tell you how that works). Given Surface RT's magnesium backing, which doubles as a heatsink and allows for its smaller size, but that isn't mentioned.



:eek:
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btw, Why are people hating so much on the plastics for Samsung? You know some plastics are tougher than some metals? Also, for the sake of signal lots of people prefer plastics.

Are we to assume the Lumia 920 is cheaper and worse off because of a plastic base back plate?

Also, you cannot even begin to compare the Samsung ATIV to the Surface. Want to know why? Different OS's.....thats why.


So....for the sake of actually wanting a full on OS....ATIV.....for the sake of a Win8 tablet running RT....Surface.
 
JPF_ said:
btw, Why are people hating so much on the plastics for Samsung? You know some plastics are tougher than some metals? Also, for the sake of signal lots of people prefer plastics.

Are we to assume the Lumia 920 is cheaper and worse off because of a plastic base back plate?

Also, you cannot even begin to compare the Samsung ATIV to the Surface. Want to know why? Different OS's.....thats why.


So....for the sake of actually wanting a full on OS....ATIV.....for the sake of a Win8 tablet running RT....Surface.
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The build quality of the Ativ 500T is very reminiscent of the Galaxy Note, pretty much the same kind of plastic. Doesn't feel cheap but it certainly doesn't feel like a premium product either. One thing I don't get are the glue on "SAMSUNG" letters. Had the same on my Series 7 Slate and those things started to come off and so I just removed them, seems silly for a device that you put on the back naturally like a tablet constantly.

As for the heat dissipation, this thing generates so little heat that I don't think that it matters. HP is using aluminum for the Envy x2 so it will be interesting to see if the thermals on that are comparable. The HP Slate 500 had a rubberized back and that thing generates a good amount of heat when it's running hard.
 
JPF_ said:
btw, Why are people hating so much on the plastics for Samsung? You know some plastics are tougher than some metals?
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Plastic isn't seen as a premium material. Because, generally speaking, it isn't.
 
I have a Lumia 900 and for the $0 I spent on it thats fine. I am a gear snob though and for $500+, if Apple can do aluminum, then so can others.

Also, there are many many many types of plastic, and the ATIV is the thin cheap feeling kind. I would much prefer a rubberized soft-touch type back at the cost of an ounce or two to what they used.
 
Well you're going to have different people using different materials with Windows 8. From plastic to aluminum to carbon fiber to magnesium. Samsung has been doing the plastic thing for a while now, it seems to work for them, can't say that it's greatest thing but it seems pretty durable under normal circumstances.
 
heatlesssun said:
None that I am aware of at the moment. For now I think most of the OEMs are working to get their Clover Trail devices out to market for the holidays, Intel is apparently having some production issues and OEMs aren't getting enough supply which is why there are so few devices currently.
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damn, why didn't they put a sd slot on the W700, makes no sense.

I was looking on ebay, you can get a older samsung series 7 tablet with an i5, 4gb of ram, for $600-700 used. I wonder if the touch screen tech is better in the new tablets. if its not, seems like this could be a good route?
 
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can anybody tell me how typng on it feels like?
I need a small portable computer for typing/coding for 3~4 hrs. Couldn't do it on netbook due to its size.
Would w7 tablet be any better with their keyboard?
 
So since the Surface Pro is slated for January - Feb timeframe, are there any other serious OEM contenders coming out in that time frame or before that?
 
MSI's S20 is my ultimate device, but its disappeared from the face of the earth it seems.
I cant find anything on it since Engadget's article back in Oct. It was supposed to be released 2nd week of Nov...... Not one single new piece of info in google..... If this doesn't come out......

I guess I'll settle for a Pro.....
 
I wonder what the Pro will use, Wacom or Ntrig? The Ntrig on my Duo isnt as good as the Wacoms I have used but still very decent. I might consider going to surface pro over my Duo or even having both.
 
$899 for the 64gb Surface Pro, I think's that's pretty fair (would be nice if it came with a keyboard though!).
 
Yes just saw this and started a thread, the pricing looks reasonable for what it is, unfortunately the covers are additional so for a 128 GB model and cover something in the neighborhood of $1100 before taxes and shipping.
 
Wiseguy2001 said:
$899 for the 64gb Surface Pro, I think's that's pretty fair (would be nice if it came with a keyboard though!).
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$900?! Holy crap, I hope it functions like a laptop and can play some demanding games, do video encoding, and other high tasks that a laptop can do!
 
Hagrid said:
$900?! Holy crap, I hope it functions like a laptop and can play some demanding games, do video encoding, and other high tasks that a laptop can do!
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Show me a laptop that weighs 2 lbs. with an IPS 1080P screen that has a touch screen and digital pen. If you want top line performance this isn't the device, but a lot of people don't play desktop PC games or do video encoding.
 
heatlesssun said:
Show me a laptop that weighs 2 lbs. with an IPS 1080P screen that has a touch screen and digital pen. If you want top line performance this isn't the device, but a lot of people don't play desktop PC games or do video encoding.
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I work out, so I am able to carry more then 2lbs. :D
Seriously, the laptop would win by a longshot. I use the tablet to read in bed because its easier to grab/hold. Unless you work standing up most of the time and have to take notes, which some phones can do the same, I will take the laptop. But then the price just send it out there, even if it does have the nice keyboard/touchpad.

Touch screens to me suck, a pen touching the screen I can do, but I would rather have mousepad/keyboard and button.

If the price were cut in 1/2 I would have a hard time parting my money with it.
 
I think the Surface Pro is meant for people who don't want both a tablet and a laptop. You get a passable laptop when you want it and a passable tablet when you don't. Some people just want a laptop; some just want a tablet; some want both in separate devices. They're all valid options, and there are products well-suited for all of them. The Surface isn't for those people.

On the subject of the keyboard/touchpad, neither are "nice". They're passable. You're much more likely to have a better experience with both in a good-quality laptop than you will with a Touch/Type Cover.
 
Hagrid said:
I work out, so I am able to carry more then 2lbs. :D
Seriously, the laptop would win by a longshot. I use the tablet to read in bed because its easier to grab/hold. Unless you work standing up most of the time and have to take notes, which some phones can do the same, I will take the laptop. But then the price just send it out there, even if it does have the nice keyboard/touchpad.

Touch screens to me suck, a pen touching the screen I can do, but I would rather have mousepad/keyboard and button.

If the price were cut in 1/2 I would have a hard time parting my money with it.
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it doesn't sound like tablets are for you, lol.

anyway, not sure if 10.6" is enough for 1080p. and for $900 I think it should have 128gb. I'm still leaning toward a used samsung series 7 slate with 128gb and i5. seems like the most bang for the buck.
 
Gabe3 said:
it doesn't sound like tablets are for you, lol.

anyway, not sure if 10.6" is enough for 1080p. and for $900 I think it should have 128gb. I'm still leaning toward a used samsung series 7 slate with 128gb and i5. seems like the most bang for the buck.
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If it would do as much as a laptop, that would be different. It just seems to me for the price I want laptop performance in a small device, even if the screen is micro small.

I have a tablet which I use to watch netflix, movie rips, and read books. The wife has a nook also and EVERY night reads the thing. hehe. Sometimes when she moves it flips open and wakes me up!
 
Hagrid said:
I work out, so I am able to carry more then 2lbs. :D
Seriously, the laptop would win by a longshot. I use the tablet to read in bed because its easier to grab/hold. Unless you work standing up most of the time and have to take notes, which some phones can do the same, I will take the laptop. But then the price just send it out there, even if it does have the nice keyboard/touchpad.
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It's a simple matter of physics and biology, the lighter a device, the longer one can hold it and the easier it is to move no matter how strong one is. And comparing note taking on a phone compared to a device like the Surface Pro that can run something like OneNote doesn't even make sense unless ones notes are a short shopping list.

For this price you can get a faster laptop but a ULV Ivy Bridge is plenty faster and powerful for most folks and the ability to then take that device and surf or do math homework on the couch is what separates this device from a conventional laptop and those features like this I think are more compelling than top line performance for many folks.

Hagrid said:
Touch screens to me suck, a pen touching the screen I can do, but I would rather have mousepad/keyboard and button.
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Yeah, but it's cool to be able to surf any site with a full desktop browser using any plug-in using only touch and not be confined to a keyboard and mouse. When you learn how to use devices like this you can do so much anywhere.

Hagrid said:
If the price were cut in 1/2 I would have a hard time parting my money with it.
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$500 for a device that would blow any $500 laptop out the water overall and make the iPad look stupid, sure they could sell all the millions they wanted.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's a simple matter of physics and biology, the lighter a device, the longer one can hold it and the easier it is to move no matter how strong one is. And comparing note taking on a phone compared to a device like the Surface Pro that can run something like OneNote doesn't even make sense unless ones notes are a short shopping list.

For this price you can get a faster laptop but a ULV Ivy Bridge is plenty faster and powerful for most folks and the ability to then take that device and surf or do math homework on the couch is what separates this device from a conventional laptop and those features like this I think are more compelling than top line performance for many folks.
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Touch screens to me suck, a pen touching the screen I can do, but I would rather have mousepad/keyboard and button.

If the price were cut in 1/2 I would have a hard time parting my money with it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but it's cool to be able to surf any site with a full desktop browser using any plug-in using only touch and not be confined to a keyboard and mouse. When you learn how to use devices like this you can do so much anywhere.[/QUOTE]

I already do that on my tablet, it sucks, it smears, gets dirty, smudges, etc. I will always like the keyboard/mouse/touch pad.

$900 to sit on the couch and do that with it? You could buy 3+ laptops and do the same thing, while it sits on your lap.

The lighter a device is the longer you can carry it? basic knowledge
Now like I said, unless your standing all day with no laptop/desktop/desk to put any type of device on, then yeah, I could see it. But, for $900, hellllll noooo! I can do that on my crappy nook color.
 
But this thing can be used as a laptop, desktop and tablet for a lot of folks. And it's not just a matter of standing, its that a device like this can simply be used in ways and places conventional laptops cannot.
 
heatlesssun said:
But this thing can be used as a laptop, desktop and tablet for a lot of folks. And it's not just a matter of standing, its that a device like this can simply be used in ways and places conventional laptops cannot.
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Can be used as a laptop? So it can run games like wow, crysis, bf3 just like a laptop?

A laptop can be used as a desktop.

Your generalizing what it can do which is basic stuff that even a phone can do. I have office on my droid, and movies, ebooks/videos, etc.

I am asking for $900 can it compete with a $900 laptop? Or a $500? Thats alot to pay for browsing, taking notes, and doing some homework on.
 
Hagrid said:
Can be used as a laptop? So it can run games like wow, crysis, bf3 just like a laptop?

A laptop can be used as a desktop.

Your generalizing what it can do which is basic stuff that even a phone can do. I have office on my droid, and movies, ebooks/videos, etc.

I am asking for $900 can it compete with a $900 laptop? Or a $500? Thats alot to pay for browsing, taking notes, and doing some homework on.
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Well, lets do an actual comparison then.

Lets compare alternative laptops to the Surface Pro:
Surface Pro: $1099 for i5, 128 GB, 10.6" screen, 2 lb weight, touch screen, 1080p
Lenovo ThinkPad Twist: $1050, The Lenovo has a larger 12.5" screen, a built-in keyboard, an Intel Core i7 processor, a 128 GB SSD, 3.5 lb weight. touchscreen, 1366x768
Macbook Air: $1099, i5 processor, 128 GB, 11" screen 2.36 lb weight, no touch screen, 1366 by 768
Samsung series 5 ultra, $1099, i5 processor 13.3" screen, 3.28 lb, no touch screen, 1366 x 768


I think this pricing is perfectly in line with other market offerings. Actually quite competitive with traditional products :confused:

Edit: Even a Thinkpad carbon for ~$100 more doesn't have the resolution this offers. Great, you can buy 2 netbooks or older HD3000 esque products. Congrats, you still have a device that quite underperforms the Surface Pro.
 
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Hagrid said:
Can be used as a laptop? So it can run games like wow, crysis, bf3 just like a laptop?

A laptop can be used as a desktop.

Your generalizing what it can do which is basic stuff that even a phone can do. I have office on my droid, and movies, ebooks/videos, etc.

I am asking for $900 can it compete with a $900 laptop? Or a $500? Thats alot to pay for browsing, taking notes, and doing some homework on.
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Yes it can depending on what you want to do. You seem to be approaching this from a one-size fits all mentality. If one size fits all, then why are there gaming laptops, ultrabooks, netbooks, tablets, etc? The Surface Pro is a godsend for highly mobile business guys. It can be one handed while walking around a datacenter, project presentations in meetings, and hook up to full PC gear at home, and probably has really good battery life for its form factor/performance. Sure others can do this, but every design has to give up something at some level. The Surface Pro is specifically catering to a certain type of user, if that user isn't you then don't get insulted about it just get something else?
 
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