FCC Eyes Tax on Internet Service

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JoeUser said:
Works in Civ 5 doesn't it? :p
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LOL. Yeah in a way it did. However, you can see what would happen right. You can't have a society like this be sustainable for very long without due to growth. If there aren't enough resources to sustain growth, then only a few options are left. 1. a certain number of people will have to leave the 'island' to find another 'island' and perform the same surveying prospects as the original island or 2. either expansion will have to occur which means that finding new resources will become an imperative to support that expansion, or 3. negotiate trade collectives for resources to support your expansion with other 'islands' or 4. not allow or highly limit growth of your society which wouldn't be a pleasant alternative at all since it would require either culling the young as in newborns or culling the older residents or both to sustain the numbers required to maintain the same resource usage rates.
 
Azhar said:
I'm of the same opinion. Highways are taxed in exactly the same way. Are you using the highway that some redneck is using in Bumfuck Alabama? Most likely not, but your tax money goes there as well as your local highways and the highways you frequent. Nobody's forced to buy a car - and nobody will be forced to buy an internet connection either. But at least it'll be there.

The only problem I see with this is that the internet is privately owned - but then again the government is currently experimenting with privatizing highways and toll roads as well. Perhaps like with the post office, if the government require taxes for internet connections to provide them everywhere, Comcast, AT&T and the likes will be subjected to subsidized laws similarly to how US chartered organizations are subjected to American laws.
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You apparently don't have a good idea of what taxes actually go where.

We in Huntsville Alabama and surrounding areas don't get near as much tax money back for roads, etc. that we pay. That is at least at the state level. Not sure about anything we get from Federal.

The truth of the matter is that the govenment is a huge money pit.. just like washing money down a drain and turning on the disposal.

What comes out the other end of the disposal is pretty much what you get from government.
 
Remember when you supported taxing cigarettes?

They drained that cash cow.

Welcome to the new cash cow.

Everyone wants it, everyone has it, and everyone needs it.

Its the best drug ever, and they're going to tax the utter shit out of it.
 
no thanks
it would be nice if it went to a fund to build a fiber network like google is doing but it wont itll just go to the telcos bottom line JUST like the USF "fees"
 
octoberasian said:
Since everyone sounds like they know better, what solutions would you rather see?

If anyone has better ideas, go ahead, I'd like to read them.
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1. public taxes pay for the infrastructure upgrades == public access to not-for-profit internet access

OR

2. private funding of infrastructure upgrades == private corporations eat crow if it's a bad investment or reap profits if it's a good investment


personally, I prefer the more socialist approach of #1 but if we're going to claim all this capitalism uber-alles then #2 needs to be the rules of the game
 
stiltner said:
Remember when you supported taxing cigarettes?

They drained that cash cow.

Welcome to the new cash cow.

Everyone wants it, everyone has it, and everyone needs it.

Its the best drug ever, and they're going to tax the utter shit out of it.
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I was really hoping you were going to end that with "udder shit out of [the new cash cow]" :(
 
Azhar said:
I'm of the same opinion. Highways are taxed in exactly the same way. Are you using the highway that some redneck is using in Bumfuck Alabama? Most likely not, but your tax money goes there as well as your local highways and the highways you frequent. Nobody's forced to buy a car - and nobody will be forced to buy an internet connection either. But at least it'll be there.

The only problem I see with this is that the internet is privately owned - but then again the government is currently experimenting with privatizing highways and toll roads as well. Perhaps like with the post office, if the government require taxes for internet connections to provide them everywhere, Comcast, AT&T and the likes will be subjected to subsidized laws similarly to how US chartered organizations are subjected to American laws.
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I'm sorry for triple posting.

Azhar, you've made some good points but the comparison doesn't work very well for at least one of the reasons you've noted: public access to freeways is free. I know on the East Coast there are thruways and those are not free, but unless I'm mistaken I believe the tolls collected go into a public coffer.

When it comes to toll roads here in Southern California, where the roads were built with tax dollars and now are "managed" by for-profit corporations that doesn't pass my sniff test because I call that corporate welfare and I'm not ok with that.

This happens in public education, too, where public grants are used to do research but private corporations end up with the patents.

Defense is by far the largest offender. The public funds the research and development and then pays out the nose for the final product! It's insanity and this is exactly how this will go down: the public funds the infrastructure then it will get handed off to a for-profit corporation at our further expense. They'll either profit from it or maybe it'll be a turd and then guess who is left holding the bag of crap? only there won't be any TV in there :(
 
Methadras said:
Money is no different than any natural resource. As long as confidence exists for a given currency, it will always have a value. Whether it's paper, gold, feathers, water, whatever.
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Paper money/Fiat currency is very very very different from any other commodity/resource. A fiat currency loses value no matter what as more linen/cotton with ink on it is printed and released into circulation (dilution of existing money). Gold and most other resources can't be replicated like this and retain fair value and compared to the fiat currency, become worth a lot more (fiat currency is worth a lot less).

Yes, humans only give value to what they feel is valuable (we all mostly understand this aka scarcity which paper money is not scarce...lol) but here's where track records matter, gold has a 6,000 year history of successful implementation. Fiat currencies have failed every single time ever used since the first time they were ever used all the way up to the US dollar that WILL collapse when the time is right. There is already another fiat currency in the works to takes it place (aka...another dilution scheme but on a much larger scale). Why? Because of the dilution of the money possible by those that control its creation and release. In our case the federal reserve.

Fiat currency is unsustainable and history and the future will solidify this judgment. Would you keep filling a barrel full with water by hand that I cut a hole into the bottom of on and since 1913 and was taking away any amounts of water that I deemed fit (your opinion meant nothing!) from your grandfather down to you and soon your sons and daughters? Maybe (sucks too), but majority of humans who cognitively understand the true specifics of the mechanism would revolt! The biggest problem is most people today aren't allowed to see the bottom of the barrel (through proper education) and don't understand there's even a hole present to begin with. They just think it is what it is (It's not taught in school like nationalism is).

I believe this quote is as much worth its weight in gold today as is it did when first spoken (retained its proper value).

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. - Henry Ford
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Methadras said:
Urkel had control of the house for 2 years in 08, 09, and 10 until he lost the house.
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Will people ever get tired of repeating this lie? At NO point was there a filibuster proof majority. What this means for those lacking in knowledge of how Congress works is that in the Senate, 60 votes are required for cloture on any legislation. That means, again for those deprived in knowledge of Congressional rules, that to end debate on any legislation and bring it up for an actual vote, at least 60 votes are needed.

During Obama's term, Republicans have broken all records for filibustering of legislation.

Here's a little hint: No legislation can pass when everything is filibustered.

aviary%20(1).jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-in-one-graph/2012/05/15/gIQAVHf0RU_blog.html
 
The FCC has no taxing authority. The most they could do is set a licensing or other fee which could be passed on to consumers.

Only Congress has authority to tax.
 
AnonymousUser said:
Paper money/Fiat currency is very very very different from any other commodity/resource. A fiat currency loses value no matter what as more linen/cotton with ink on it is printed and released into circulation (dilution of existing money). Gold and most other resources can't be replicated like this and retain fair value and compared to the fiat currency, become worth a lot more (fiat currency is worth a lot less).

Yes, humans only give value to what they feel is valuable (we all mostly understand this aka scarcity which paper money is not scarce...lol) but here's where track records matter, gold has a 6,000 year history of successful implementation. Fiat currencies have failed every single time ever used since the first time they were ever used all the way up to the US dollar that WILL collapse when the time is right. There is already another fiat currency in the works to takes it place (aka...another dilution scheme but on a much larger scale). Why? Because of the dilution of the money possible by those that control its creation and release. In our case the federal reserve.

Fiat currency is unsustainable and history and the future will solidify this judgment. Would you keep filling a barrel full with water by hand that I cut a hole into the bottom of on and since 1913 and was taking away any amounts of water that I deemed fit (your opinion meant nothing!) from your grandfather down to you and soon your sons and daughters? Maybe (sucks too), but majority of humans who cognitively understand the true specifics of the mechanism would revolt! The biggest problem is most people today aren't allowed to see the bottom of the barrel (through proper education) and don't understand there's even a hole present to begin with. They just think it is what it is (It's not taught in school like nationalism is).

I believe this quote is as much worth its weight in gold today as is it did when first spoken (retained its proper value).



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What's funny, I understood what you were writing. I was taught this during Economics courses in college...

ekierce said:
Will people ever get tired of repeating this lie? At NO point was there a filibuster proof majority. What this means for those lacking in knowledge of how Congress works is that in the Senate, 60 votes are required for cloture on any legislation. That means, again for those deprived in knowledge of Congressional rules, that to end debate on any legislation and bring it up for an actual vote, at least 60 votes are needed.

During Obama's term, Republicans have broken all records for filibustering of legislation.

Here's a little hint: No legislation can pass when everything is filibustered.

aviary%20(1).jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-in-one-graph/2012/05/15/gIQAVHf0RU_blog.html
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... and a lot of this regarding filibusters was taught during Political Sciences 101/102 in college and US Government in high school and college.

To a lot of people, a lot of what both of you wrote down is not known by a good majority of American people out there (and coincidentally, voters themselves). So, what happens? A lot of ranting by people that think they know everything, and end up voting for the wrong people into office. Then, you get the trolling (as seen in this forum), and the outbursts by people (even on this thread) in short phrases and a few words.

It seems to vote for anything in this country, you either need one of the following:
  1. ... an open, unbiased mind, but a good knowledge of US politics and how government works.
  2. ... or blindly listening to the commercials on TV (or worse, listening to Fox News).
 
Serious question. Has the FCC or any other government agency ever actually defined what broadband is?
 
kbrickley said:
I don't think a tax for this makes sense ... the US is too big to try and force internet speeds like those in Korea and Japan (a fraction of our size). If they feel a burning desire to intrude government into this I would much rather they exercise eminent domain (for wireless and broadband) which would make far more sense and affect fewer people directly than a tax would. Also, it would be less likely to be abused than a tax would.
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No it isn't. The US has the money to do what ever we want so far as infrastructure. The problem is priorities are fucked up. Take all the money that is wasted on other countries and spend it here, and you will see just how much better things would be.
 
octoberasian said:
... and a lot of this regarding filibusters was taught during Political Sciences 101/102 in college and US Government in high school and college.
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Yet it never ceases to amaze me how many people have no comprehension whatsoever of these facts.

They actually think that having 50 Democrats (and one Lieberman) in Congress somehow equates to "control."
 
ekierce said:
Yet it never ceases to amaze me how many people have no comprehension whatsoever of these facts.

They actually think that having 50 Democrats (and one Lieberman) in Congress somehow equates to "control."
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Ooops, that should say "in the Senate".
 
Commander FAT said:
Serious question. Has the FCC or any other government agency ever actually defined what broadband is?
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That's a very good question. I'll have to look that up. My thinking it's a term defined by ISPs and those behind the technology (research institutions, etc.) but not by a government agency.
 
octoberasian said:
That's a very good question. I'll have to look that up. My thinking it's a term defined by ISPs and those behind the technology (research institutions, etc.) but not by a government agency.
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In the U.S. National Broadband Plan of 2009, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) defined broadband access as "Internet access that is always on and faster than the traditional dial-up access"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_access
 
ekierce said:
Ooops, that should say "in the Senate".
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Both (the House and the Senate) are part of Congress so you were correct the first time although your correction is more specific ;)

A lot of people don't know how Congress operates but that's a different issue from many not having the knowledge or time to learn who is in office. It doesn't help that certain parties specifically target what they call these "low information voters" and feed them misinformation in spaces they're likely to encounter.

It's a tough issue: balancing freedom of speech with protecting the population from people broadcasting blatant lies. I'm not quite sure how to address it to be honest.
 
octoberasian said:
It seems to vote for anything in this country, you either need one of the following:
  1. ... an open, unbiased mind, but a good knowledge of US politics and how government works.
  2. ... or blindly listening to the commercials on TV (or worse, listening to Fox News).
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By the simple observation that you failed to put MSNBC and CNN in that last statement pretty much invalidates any attempt you might be making at not being brainwashed by the media.
 
bacon said:
No it isn't. The US has the money to do what ever we want so far as infrastructure. The problem is priorities are fucked up. Take all the money that is wasted on other countries and spend it here, and you will see just how much better things would be.
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I agree our priorities are usually pretty bad in this country ... the only reason we have the interstate highway system is that we were in the cold war when it was built and they wanted to move troops and weapons more efficiently.

However, don't diminish the difficulty of a country wide infrastructure project ... Korea is only the size of Indiana (the 38th largest state) and Japan is around the size of California (the 3rd largest). Both have much greater population density as well (Korea has 7 times the population desity of Indiana, Japan has 3.5 times the population density of California). That does make infrastructure projects easier to implement as you can get much bigger bang for the buck.

If our sole goal is internet access for all, then satellites probably make more sense for the US given our size and population density. Allowing the government to use Eminent Domain to take necessary land (but letting the Telcos use their own dollars to lay their own infrastructure) could then be used in the higher density areas to lay fiber or place wireless or some other form of higher speed and lower latency access. Since the eminent domain would give the Telcos a better price for the land access needed, they could make pricing considerations to compensate the government for the Eminent Domain access they are being granted.

That would make more sense then trying to provide the same type of high speed infrastructure to the full 314 million people in the US (across the full 3.8 million square miles of land). That would be very costly and I think the full benefit of an undertaking of that scale is somewhat dubious. If they can do it smarter and cheaper though I am all for that ;)
 
How seriously horrible is this idea? and how can people possibly think this is the right way to do things? TAXING people more so the BUSINESS can grow their client base?!?! WTF is there not to get? I can't go to the store and tell the cashier to charge the dude behind me double so i can get my items i want for free. This crap is asinine! I mean seriously you are now telling people that instead of budgeting properly and spending what profits you make wisely, that they can piss away their money and the government will step in for you and freakin' give you money that you did not EARN. We all know that #1 the price for internet access in already accessible areas will increase and #2 they now can gain MORE customers who are paying for their service.......with no cost to the company to grow. This is way the economy is so freakin' terrible and why big business is NOT the solution to our economic mess.
 
So either the ISPs can make the investment themselves.

Or they can get the FCC to tax me, and if I refuse to pay the taxes they use force of arms to take it from me.

This sounds like an AWESOME plan!

And they did this to Vonage voice-over-IP phones too.

When I first signed up it was $19 a month, and that was your final bill. Now after the huge list of government fees and taxes imposed on the service, the end bill went from flat $19 to $30.11.

Rediculous!
 
Being i work for a FCC Licensed Company... ummmmm I like the fact of giving people more access to the internet, but more taxes is not good either...
 
kbrickley said:
I agree our priorities are usually pretty bad in this country ... the only reason we have the interstate highway system is that we were in the cold war when it was built and they wanted to move troops and weapons more efficiently.

However, don't diminish the difficulty of a country wide infrastructure project ... Korea is only the size of Indiana (the 38th largest state) and Japan is around the size of California (the 3rd largest). Both have much greater population density as well (Korea has 7 times the population desity of Indiana, Japan has 3.5 times the population density of California). That does make infrastructure projects easier to implement as you can get much bigger bang for the buck.

If our sole goal is internet access for all, then satellites probably make more sense for the US given our size and population density. Allowing the government to use Eminent Domain to take necessary land (but letting the Telcos use their own dollars to lay their own infrastructure) could then be used in the higher density areas to lay fiber or place wireless or some other form of higher speed and lower latency access. Since the eminent domain would give the Telcos a better price for the land access needed, they could make pricing considerations to compensate the government for the Eminent Domain access they are being granted.

That would make more sense then trying to provide the same type of high speed infrastructure to the full 314 million people in the US (across the full 3.8 million square miles of land). That would be very costly and I think the full benefit of an undertaking of that scale is somewhat dubious. If they can do it smarter and cheaper though I am all for that ;)
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I totally agree with you but we all know they never do anything smarter or cheaper unless its their own money they have to use and in most cases its not smarter its just cheaper. In this case its not their own money so why make it cheaper? I am always a proponent of cheaper and smarter. :)
 
magoo said:
So I get to pay more taxes to use my broadband, so some dickhead gets it for free in BumFuckNowhere? Please, I'll take two.
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This isn't about people getting free internet, this is about the ISPs getting free infrastructure.

Once the ISPs build their tax-funded infrastructure into the boonies, they will charge those people just like everyone else (probably at a premium, because of how charitable they are even being there).
 
GaryJohnson said:
This isn't about people getting free internet, this is about the ISPs getting free infrastructure.

Once the ISPs build their tax-funded infrastructure into the boonies, they will charge those people just like everyone else (probably at a premium, because of how charitable they are even being there).
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So you assumption is that the government wouldn't lease that infrastructure but would just "give it" to the greedy corporations for free.... :rolleyes:
 
MajorDomo said:
To fund an agency created to expand Internet access, The FCC is considering a proposal to levy a tax on broadband service. The ‘Connect America Fund’ would be used to build high-speed networks to reach the Americans presently without high speed access. Thanks to forum member Majeztik12 for the linkage.
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So the small fortune I pay each month to TWC and Verizon isn't enough for them to actually expand their networks? Instead of a tax, why not a law that forces utilities to spend a minimum on upgrading their infrastructure instead of letting the CEO and board members pocket every dime they can.
 
I hope they go ahead an levy the tax so that everyone can have access to the internet. If it helps run internet lines to someone on a farm in the middle of nowhere then I'm all for it. They already have to pay taxes so that people in cities got their internet. Time for the have's to chip in for the have not's.

And for everyone complaining about it cut your internet off if you don't like it. Everyone knows the USA is all about taxes and if your family just got here you just found out. In the end all it does is make for more equality which just happens to be one of the cornerstones that our country was founded on.
 
Koolthulu said:
So the small fortune I pay each month to TWC and Verizon isn't enough for them to actually expand their networks? Instead of a tax, why not a law that forces utilities to spend a minimum on upgrading their infrastructure instead of letting the CEO and board members pocket every dime they can.
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Ha ha that's a choice that you make to pay them. You can get cheaper service although probably slower. If you have an issue with the price of internet then contact your state senator and explain how they can make the ISP's foot the bill more and still get internet to everyone.

That's the wise thing to do. Otherwise your silent protest will go unheard.
 
Does the FCC actually have taxing authority? I thought Congress had to pass a bill to do that.
 
I still don't get it. These companies have not laid cable out to the extreme rural areas because the profit does not support the cost. These ISP's do not want these customers because it costs too much to connect 4 houses out in the boonies. BUT, as long as they can tax existing customers and not have to pay for it themselves, its perfectly OK?

To me it sounds like these billion dollar companies want their handouts just like all the other assholes.
 
octoberasian said:
People lack both sympathy and empathy in this country and saddens me to see this kind of attitudes out of my fellow Americans.
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America is the most generous and giving nation in the world, not only through foreign aid and relief packages to others countries through government initiatives, but in donations to charity by the private citizens of this great, if fading, republic.

So take your whiny pleas for "more" and chuck them out the window. We already give and give and give and all we hear is "it's not enough".

Of course it's not enough. The desire of many to have others subsidize their lifestyle will always outweigh the ability of others to do so.
 
Stiletto said:
America is the most generous and giving nation in the world, not only through foreign aid and relief packages to others countries through government initiatives, but in donations to charity by the private citizens of this great, if fading, republic.

So take your whiny pleas for "more" and chuck them out the window. We already give and give and give and all we hear is "it's not enough".

Of course it's not enough. The desire of many to have others subsidize their lifestyle will always outweigh the ability of others to do so.
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Not to burst your awesome ass bubble you built for yourself but YOU DO REALIZE Murica is the biggest debtor nation (and bully nation) in the history of nations, right?

"Reality", it smells good when you just relax and breathe it in.
 
Stiletto said:
America is the most generous and giving nation in the world, not only through foreign aid and relief packages to others countries through government initiatives, but in donations to charity by the private citizens of this great, if fading, republic.

So take your whiny pleas for "more" and chuck them out the window. We already give and give and give and all we hear is "it's not enough".

Of course it's not enough. The desire of many to have others subsidize their lifestyle will always outweigh the ability of others to do so.
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On the other hand, most of you guys whine that South Korea has fiber everywhere - well here's our chance to at least have SOMETHING everywhere :-P
 
AnonymousUser said:
Not to burst your awesome ass bubble you built for yourself but YOU DO REALIZE Murica is the biggest debtor nation (and bully nation) in the history of nations, right?

"Reality", it smells good when you just relax and breathe it in.
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Over a third of that debt was established by our current president, and nearly another third by the last. I'm not happy about it, either, but that doesn't change the fact that the citizens of this nation are the most generous in the world. Is there a reason you're trying to deflect away from that?

Oh yeah...probably the same reason you're saying "Murica" is the biggest "bully nation", whatever the hell that means, in the history of nations. Tell me, does that history include the Soviets, Nazis, Romans, Visigoths, etc? Nah. Of course it doesn't. History doesn't extend past 1991 for you, I'm guessing.
 
mope54 said:
1. public taxes pay for the infrastructure upgrades == public access to not-for-profit internet access

OR

2. private funding of infrastructure upgrades == private corporations eat crow if it's a bad investment or reap profits if it's a good investment


personally, I prefer the more socialist approach of #1 but if we're going to claim all this capitalism uber-alles then #2 needs to be the rules of the game
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Wow, I find myself agreeing with mope54...WHAT IS HAPPENING?!? :p
 
Azhar said:
On the other hand, most of you guys whine that South Korea has fiber everywhere - well here's our chance to at least have SOMETHING everywhere :-P
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I've never whined about what South Korea does. They impress me as a nation. I just wish we didn't have troops there.
 
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