Wondering about ZFS hand built vs. Thecus

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tangoseal

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I have sold my QNAP TS669 PRO (AMAZING NAS) but I need more drive space and rather than getting bigger drives, i'd rather keep what I have and get more of the same size.

Small useless details aside I am looking at two options here...

1. Build my own server with new parts and a SuperMicro 3U chassis I will mount to my home rackmount.

-Will consist of several hard drives, I have 5 for now going to go to 8 but... read below later.
-WIll use Socket 1155 Xeon or lower end socket 2011 Xeon, I want ECC, for 24/7 reliability if I go hand built.
-WIll have 16 GB of RAM DDR-1333 ECC for ZFS Deduplication.
-Priobably will use NAS4FREE with ZFS Raid Z2 or 3.
-Am looking to use 10GB between my NAS, 3750E, and Signature Rig. I already have 2 10GB nics sitting in a box. I just need to get two used X2-10GB adapters for my switch.

I really dont need to share many more details than that except the following:
-I want to use this as a media server, PS3, Twonky, as a bonus to feed all my devices.
-I would like to be able to use certain plugins like E-Mail server etc...

Are there any HBA's that will work with ZFS? I have had nothing but shit luck with Adaptec vs. ZFS even when the Adaptec card is just a bunch of single standalone drives and no raid mode is being used. This was on a 5805Z on a clients machine I built.

I think the cost of hand built is significantly less than prebuilt enterprise version listed below.


2. Looking very highly at Thecus N12000V (12 Bay, with Xeon etc...)

Pros:
-12 bays
-Redundant power, yeah I have two UPS's sitting around same make and model, unfortunately on same power sources.
-Really nice chassis
-Supports ext3,4, and XFS.
-Upgradeable to 10GB ( I happen to have the 10GB nic, the sames one I have in box work with this model)
-Custom firmware and software with media server capabilites and email server etc...
-Fully warrantied and supported by Thecus
-Regular software updates to ensure performance, features, and security.

Cons:
-Price $2600'ish without drives.
-Cant customize or change software, i.e. switch from nas4free to openindiana etc...
-NO ZFS support (that is not the end of the world) but we all know that ZFS is superior tech when it comes to long term flawless data retention algorithms.

Between the two I am not sure if the price difference is really all that much of a gap. I am sure I can build a server by hand for less money but I will be stuck with "hopefully" supported open source software like nas4, freenas, openfiler, indiana etc...

Just curious if anyone has any inputs for me.
 
ibm m1015 reflashed to IT mode works fine. I wouldn't bother with deduplication - too many issues.
 
When planning out your ZFS folder and file structure, graph it out on paper. Folders in ZFS are like completely different file systems that can have different properties. Make a ZFS folder for videos and one for whatever you need de-dupe for. There is no reason to have de-dupe on for multiple Gigs of video files. This also helps with snaps, as you can do them per ZFS folder. I snap my downloads folder everyday and discard them after 4 weeks. I snap my photo library folder every day and keep them for 2 years. When I build my first pool, I made 1 ZFS folder and then managed everything in windows. Big mistake. I quickly ran out of space because my snaps covered the whole drive.
 
So a different ZFS dataset for each little thing (category) instead of one huge dataset for all?
 
danswartz said:
ibm m1015 reflashed to IT mode works fine. I wouldn't bother with deduplication - too many issues.
Click to expand...

+1 on this. In an enterprise environment where you have hundreds of users who often keep copies of the same stuff everyone is keeping (huge ppt files, training vids, promo vids etc) dedup can be worthwhile and save a considerable amount of storage space. In a home environment where you are managing your own stuff, the most likely source of dupe material is just multiple copies of the same song in a compilation album vs the original pressing. Unless you have an ungodly number of dupes like this, dedup is not worth the trouble.
 
mwroobel said:
+1 on this. In an enterprise environment where you have hundreds of users who often keep copies of the same stuff everyone is keeping (huge ppt files, training vids, promo vids etc) dedup can be worthwhile and save a considerable amount of storage space. In a home environment where you are managing your own stuff, the most likely source of dupe material is just multiple copies of the same song in a compilation album vs the original pressing. Unless you have an ungodly number of dupes like this, dedup is not worth the trouble.
Click to expand...

Gotcha.... dedup not necessary.

Now I am pricing out a build for homemade and placing that against a Thecus 12 bay and a few other Semi-enterprise/enterprise class NAS units.
 
tangoseal said:
So a different ZFS dataset for each little thing (category) instead of one huge dataset for all?
Click to expand...
Yep. Each dataset is very light weight, similar to a directory. So your topmost directories, should be datasets.

Video
MP3
Docs
...
 
brutalizer said:
Yep. Each dataset is very light weight, similar to a directory. So your topmost directories, should be datasets.

Video
MP3
Docs
...
Click to expand...

Awesome. Now I have to choose if I am going to go ZFS or pre-built...

See I want to buy a new Trek 2013 Superfly Carbon Fiber Super light, since I mountain bike hardcore, so I really dont want to blow my entire budget for my bicycle, $5500 bike, on building a new nas either, although I can afford more that is my semi hard cap I am placing on my self. Choices... sigh ... computers dont prevent obesity but mountain biking does haha
 
A zfs server built by you is much cheaper than a pre built server. Check it yourself.
 
brutalizer said:
A zfs server built by you is much cheaper than a pre built server. Check it yourself.
Click to expand...

Is there a way to use NAS4FREE (since it has awesome ZFS support) and install Twonky or a likewise media server on it?

It looks like it supports FUPPES but I have no idea how good that is in comparison to Twonky. Any recommendations?

I am also hopeful that it will support 10GB/eth so I can stream my pr0n faster to my devices haha just kidding about that. Well not about 10g/e
 
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Okay I priced this out.... significantly cheaper.

However I am not a super crazy blog reading storage nut. I need some more advice... I am looking heavily at using NAS4FREE (continuation of Freenas project) and that is because it uses version 28 of ZFS. To my understanding version 33, I think, is going to have the ability to add single drives, expand, and add to the stripe. For now it doesnt support expansion cheaply and easily which bothers me.

However do you guys forsee this being an update on the nas4free project? Someone that reads the deep down blogging by the dev team?

Lastly I am thinking of going with the following setup because I DO want to use deduplication in order to maximize all of the hard drive space I can muster. I also want to use ZFS because I am storing very precious family photos and videos, as well as customer data (offsites, securely and encrypted), my work office data via VPN, and the list goes on so I want to use the exceptional capabilities of checksum'ing etc... and lossless data retention.

I do make backups of course, I know raid isnt a backup, rather a high availability system.

So with SHA256 Dedup'ing I know it will use some power so I am thinking of the following and tell me what you think:

two versions

1. Use my existing 990FX GigB UD3 and AMD FX6100 with minimum 16GB of ECC DDR1333. (I know this isnt server grade but this is FreeBSD and I understand the bulldozer is significantly faster than windows on this OS)

2. New Asus Server board or Tyan with Opteron 6212 8 core processor 16 or 24GB of ECC (Ram is cheap anyways, not worried about that)

I was thinking of using a socket 2011 board and lower end Xeon w/o HT because it isnt needed because there are alot of softraid ports, ALOT. However if I go AMD I can use the 6 softraid ports on the board and if I want later I can get a LSI based card as mentioned earler up the thread and flash it in IT mode.

I dont know... this is gonna cost me like$1500 as opposed to $2600+ for a Thecus or likewise other brand.

I plan to use this case in either build I go....
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811152116

Because supermicro is really high quality, great fans, great backplane, hot swap drive bays and a great PSU too.
 
why use nas4free and not freenas? What do you find better on it?

The 8.3 beta has ZFS version 28 already
 
I guess they are the same. I just thought freenas was dead anf nas for free was the continuation.
 
freenas is still being worked on - totally new codebase i thought? anyway, i'm sticking with OI for now :)
 
tangoseal said:
I guess they are the same. I just thought freenas was dead anf nas for free was the continuation.
Click to expand...

Ahh the fun of open source projects. There was a shift in the community when FreeNAS went a more commercial route and wanted to stop supporting the legacy FreeNAS 7. Most people found 8 to be buggy (it is pretty good now days). The 7 group went off and did NAS4FREE.

Honestly I run FreeNAS 8 right now but I find the community at NAS4FREE a lot better. So I'll probably be making a switch myself here when I get a weekend.
 
I think the choice or making the software more commercial will increase the quality in the long term, especially to use freenas in the enterprise. I now very little about nas4free and I can be wrong about how good it is, but last time I tried freenas about 2 years ago it was quite crap. I tested now on version 8.3 and I was blown away, so much better.
 
Instead of a Thecus why not just get a Dell R510

I got one with 12 bays last year for $1600 could get it cheaper now I assume. The H200 card is a rebranded LSI HBA.
 
mephistopoa said:
the R515 has 12 plus 2x 2.5 inches internal bays, very cheap too
Click to expand...

Same thing as the R510 but with AMD instead of Intel CPUs. The 510 also has the 2 internal 2.5" drives. I use them for booting ESXi as a Raid 1. Then I pass through the HBA card with the 12 drives to an Open Indiana VM
 
I didn't try FreeNAS until v8 & thought it was pretty good. Also recently built myself a Nas4Free for its newer ZFS version, and it's been fine as well. IMO, I'd stick with whichever has a good reputation & the newer ZFS. Definitely check out FN's documentation though - it's much more detailed than N4F's.
 
Im not going to go with Thecus ... tooo much money and I want to save more money so I can also get me a new Carbon Fiber Frame Trek Superfly 29'er this December which is a $5500 mountain bike since I ride hardcore.

Also I will look at the Dell R510 but I just stopped liking dells when they went to cheap chinese plants to be made.
 
mephistopoa said:
why use nas4free and not freenas? What do you find better on it?

The 8.3 beta has ZFS version 28 already
Click to expand...

I like nas4free because it is using BSD 9.0 P4. It is really fast, from the interface, to the build times, the throughput, the use of dedicated processing power, ram usage, etc... I just liked it all around when testing it out. ZFS performance was awesome as it is using version 28. I cant wait to see the 33rd version of ZFS that will support online raid expansion to a single added disk given you are using the appropriate raid type i.e. Z2 or Z3. I am not sure how it work with Z1 but I am sure there is a way ZFS would do it.
 
tangoseal said:
I cant wait to see the 33rd version of ZFS that will support online raid expansion to a single added disk given you are using the appropriate raid type i.e. Z2 or Z3. I am not sure how it work with Z1 but I am sure there is a way ZFS would do it.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, zpool version 33 has no such capability (at least Oracle's version) - if it does it's been kept very quiet!
It needs a feature called Block Pointer Rewrite - it's been semi promised, hinted at and alluded to etc for many years now, but has never actually materialised. Whether it actually ever will remains to be seen.

Are you saying that Nas4free are working on their own version 33 which has this capability?
If so, that'd be something of a coup for them
!
 
Billy_nnn said:
AFAIK, zpool version 33 has no such capability (at least Oracle's version) - if it does it's been kept very quiet!
It needs a feature called Block Pointer Rewrite - it's been semi promised, hinted at and alluded to etc for many years now, but has never actually materialised. Whether it actually ever will remains to be seen.

Are you saying that Nas4free are working on their own version 33 which has this capability?
If so, that'd be something of a coup for them
!
Click to expand...

Oh I dont know what nas4 is working on honestly. I am sure not 33. I was just saying I heard it was in development generally. But we will probably never see that. It is going to be reserved for enterprise stuff you know. Money making elements if you ask me. Atleast that is what I would think.
 
Keep in mind there is an open-source ZFS. Illumos. Used by openindiana and (now) nexenta 4.0. Much likelier to see joy there. I wouldn't be surprised if block pointer rewrite was on their todo list.
 
I was planning to go with synology, but when I saw gea esx + zfs all-in-one, I changed my mind

Now for a couple $$$ more than the synology, I have a full ESX + ZFS.

Using a 3930K with 32gb ram, I have 12GB allocated to the OI VM.

Totally kick-ass, and trouble free so far (had 2 disk failure, and gea web guide made it easy to find the problem and remplace the disk)
 
x-cimo said:
I was planning to go with synology, but when I saw gea esx + zfs all-in-one, I changed my mind

Now for a couple $$$ more than the synology, I have a full ESX + ZFS.

Using a 3930K with 32gb ram, I have 12GB allocated to the OI VM.

Totally kick-ass, and trouble free so far (had 2 disk failure, and gea web guide made it easy to find the problem and remplace the disk)
Click to expand...
How long have you ran this ESXi + ZFS server? One year? One month? What is your impressions?
 
tangoseal said:
I like nas4free because it is using BSD 9.0 P4. It is really fast, from the interface, to the build times, the throughput, the use of dedicated processing power, ram usage, etc... I just liked it all around when testing it out. ZFS performance was awesome as it is using version 28. I cant wait to see the 33rd version of ZFS that will support online raid expansion to a single added disk given you are using the appropriate raid type i.e. Z2 or Z3. I am not sure how it work with Z1 but I am sure there is a way ZFS would do it.
Click to expand...

What about hot spares and resilvering? on freenas there is a problem with disk, you de attach a disk and it doesn't reflect this on the web gui, also doens't kick in the hot spare.
 
x-cimo said:
I was planning to go with synology, but when I saw gea esx + zfs all-in-one, I changed my mind

Now for a couple $$$ more than the synology, I have a full ESX + ZFS.

Using a 3930K with 32gb ram, I have 12GB allocated to the OI VM.

Totally kick-ass, and trouble free so far (had 2 disk failure, and gea web guide made it easy to find the problem and remplace the disk)
Click to expand...

link please?
 
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