Trade w/ w00tMkay going from so-so to bad and then ugly

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cyberkost

[H]F Junkie
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I did not think I'd have to post this in public, but, perhaps, I am going crazy and need a reality check.

== Part 1 ===============================================

The facts of the matter:
  1. On 07/17 w00tMkay agreed to sell to me a combo consisting of Biostar Z77 mobo and a G630 CPU for $160 shipped (FS thread: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1705415)
  2. I sent $160 to him via Paypal on 07/17 at around 7pm ET
  3. I have received no communication from w00tMkay and sent him a PM at 4:05pm on 07/19 asking if the package was shipped
  4. On 07/19 at 8:25pm I received a "Your package is on its way" e-mail from Paypal (which really means that a shipping label has just been printed). My inference: as of 8:25pm 07/19 package has not been shipped
  5. After silence from 07/17, next PM from w00tMkay came on 07/20 at 12:14pm saying "Yep, the package went out yesterday." implying that the package went out on 07/19. Link to screenshot: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAKsI/_QYOzpyugMA/s0/2012-07-27_010537.png Commentary: how can one ship on the same day if the label was generated at 8:25pm on that day? Exhibit A
  6. Now, the tracking link for the package: https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConfirmAction_input?origTrackNum=9405509699937032493657 It clearly shows acceptance on 07/23.
  7. The package arrived on 07/25 (as would be consistent with Priority Mail time frame and 07/23 shipping)
  8. The shipping label listed package weight as 2lb while the package actual weight was over 5lb. I can produce scan / photograph of the shipping label (Exhibit B)
  9. Now, here's a screenshot of the mobo description in the FS thread I took at the time of purchase (click on thumbnail to see full size image):
  10. Upon receiving the package I found two issues with the motherboard that have not been mentioned in the original FS thread: at least one damaged pin in the LGA1155 socket and foam glued to the back of the board. Images can be found below.
  11. On the evening of the day of receiving the package, specifically at 10:45pm 07/25 I promptly notified the seller of the issues providing the photographs.
  12. The PM exchange presented below has ensued

== Part 2 ===============================================

Part 2. The PM exchange.
I don't think "I wrote"/"He wrote" is going to work, so here's the PM exchange that took place. I replaced my and seller's names with respective [H] nicknames and removed seller's address, otherwise this is unaltered.

w00tMkay said:
cyberkost said:
w00tMkay said:
cyberkost said:
w00tMkay said:
cyberkost said:
w00tMkay said:
cyberkost said:
w00tMkay said:
cyberkost said:
w00tMkay said:
I dropped it of on thursday, no idea why it just updated "Dispatched to Sort Facility" is what it shows at the moment.
Click to expand...

Yeah -- just saw the tracking update to say the package is dispatched to sort facility this evening (5:04pm). Strange thing is that the expected delivery is in the past (July 21) .. but I do feel better now. Will let you know once the package arrives
Click to expand...

Yeah It kind of freaked me out, I almost thought the package was lost at the post office sorting facility or something, Keep me posted for sure.

w00tMkay
Click to expand...


Hi w00tMkay,

The package came today. Looks like it made it here safely, but I got a couple of not so pleasant surprises when I took the mobo out and had a closer look at it:
1. One of the pins in the socket looks weird:

(click to look at full-size image) .. the weird pin is in the top left of the socket and there's potentially another one (to the left of the visibly weird one) -- it looks kinda different when shooting from another angle.
2. There's some "unadvertized" foam on the back of the mobo:


I would feel compelled to return the mobo (and, potentially, the CPU with it) based on the above, but
(A) I am somewhat of a purist/perfectionist
(B) as you know, I bought this for Sigmas -- perhaps you and him can negotiate something that would work for both of you that does not involve shipping anything back.

Please let me know how you'd like to handle this. I have not yet gotten in touch with Sigmas on the details of package received, but I will need to tomorrow morning.

Thanks,
-cyberkost
Click to expand...

I inspected the socket before placing the socket cover on / shipping the board, strange as i pulled my 2700k strait out, and put the socket cover on strait after, all the pins looked good. The foam on the backside of the socket is from a closed loop Kuhler 920 and is common when you remove it, and will not cause any harm.

I looked at that picture, and Im having a really hard time finding the bent pin. Are you willing to mount the G630 board to verify functionality? I didn't see any issues before shipping, and would hate to have to go through a whole return process.
Click to expand...

w00tMkay, thank you for writing back.

Please click on the thumbnails below to see full size pictures. The pin in question is approximately in the middle of the encircled area.


On the foam -- it may or may not interfere with whatever subsequent build might be, but what it definitely does is that it lowers the value of the motherboard to me to something substantially below what I paid.

I am firm in my intention to not keep the board. I can return board+CPU for $160 + my cost to ship them back to you OR, if you so prefer, just the board for $120 + my cost to ship it back to you.

If you think I am being unreasonable, please start a thread here http://hardforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=99 so that [H] community can weigh in. I would still reserve my right to initiate Paypal dispute on the "item not as described" grounds.

-cyberkost
Click to expand...

I do think you are being unreasonable and jumping the gun a little bit, I have a perfect 37-0 heatware record and don't plan to "screw" you like your tone indicates. Two peieces of foam does not in any way detract from the value of the board, you can use rubbing alcohol and remove them if you'd like, I could have and would have If I would have known you'd be so upset about 2 cushions from the old mount. The bent pin is now visible now, I can refund you if you would like. Once I receive the board back.

I think you need to learn to deal with people in a calm manner, I have a good reputation around here, and plan to keep it that way.
Click to expand...

w00tMkay,

5.5lb package with mobo and CPU shipped from 10512 to 48315 and insured for $160 is $10.52 + $2.90 = $13.42: http://postcalc.usps.com/ExtraServi...12&MailingTime=8:00+AM&time=Mon,+Jul+30&mt=10

I'll be shipping back to:
w00tMkay
<<Seller's Address (return address on the shipping label on the package I received>>

I expect to *receive* $173.42 in my Paypal as reimbursement ($160 original payment + $13.42 my shipping back expense). I plan to ship on Saturday 07/28.

Please specify your agreement to this plan or propose an alternative I can agree to by 9pm 07/27.

Thank you,
-cyberkost
Click to expand...

I will issue you a refund of 160. I'm not paying for shipping both ways, you can dispute it with paypal if you would like. It's completely unreasonable to expect me to pay for return shipping if you want a refund. I payed for shipping to you. If you agree, my shipping address is correct in your reply.
Click to expand...

w00tMkay,

I have to disagree. This is not an alternative I can accept as I do not see a reason to lose $13.42 (on top of significant amount of time I have already lost) through no fault of mine. I will present the facts of this trade with a thread in the Tips/Tricks & Trolls forum for input from moderators and broader [H] community and will follow with a Paypal dispute should it become necessary.

Regards,
-cyberkost
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand, I payed to get the package to you, it left my house in pristine condition, If you want a refund, I'm more than willing to do that. I will not take double loss plus a board for all i know you damaged, sorry. I will take this up with Kyle in the morning.
Click to expand...

== Part 3 ===============================================

Well, here's the question I'd appreciate moderators and [H] community to comment on:
Am I entitled to have return shipping covered given that I did not receive what I paid for?

Thanks.
 
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http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1038979133&posted=1#post1038979133

You were shipped a board that was pulled from a WORKING setup, with a perfect socket, with a socket protecter installed prior to shipping. I am willing to give you a refund, even split the return shipping.
I don't know how this went to "ugly", perhaps in your mind I'm not trying to work with you? I offered you a refund in my post, along with splitting the shipping cost to return the board which according to more
than half the posters in my thread sounds reasonable.

Can we come to a middle ground on a 13 dollar shipping charge like adults? I'm offering more than Paypal will through a standard dispute, I really don't want to go that route because I value my reputation,
and what I'm offering you as a refund is more than most tell me I'm responsible for.
 
Last edited:
Split the cost and in the future have photographic proof of conditions,
 
Whenever I purchase something online, it is done with the understanding that if I need to return the product that I am willing to pay return shipping. I consider myself VERY lucky if I am offered a prepaid return label or if an individual offers to comp me for any portion of the cost.

Pay to return the items, make sure you get it insured and with delivery confirmation (because it's your responsibility to make sure they return to him), and either leave no heat or neutral heat; it doesn't sound like the seller is intentionally trying to screw you.
 
Man I think you guys should just split the shipping and get done with this matter. It's at most 10 dollars if you guys split the delivery fee. JEEZ LOUIE.
 
w00tMkay said:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1038979133&posted=1#post1038979133

You were shipped a board that was pulled from a WORKING setup, with a perfect socket, with a socket protecter installed prior to shipping. I am willing to give you a refund, even split the return shipping.
I don't know how this went to "ugly", perhaps in your mind I'm not trying to work with you? I offered you a refund in my post, along with splitting the shipping cost to return the board which according to more
than half the posters in my thread sounds reasonable.

Can we come to a middle ground on a 13 dollar shipping charge like adults? I'm offering more than Paypal will through a standard dispute, I really don't want to go that route because I value my reputation,
and what I'm offering you as a refund is more than most tell me I'm responsible for.
Click to expand...

I believe the there's a material difference between "just the board" and the "board with with foam glued on the back and a pin that may have suffered b/c of too much current flowing through a somewhat resistive contact generating too much heat causing the pin to deform". I purchased the former and received the latter. I appreciate the refund +1/2 shipping offer but do not see why I should lose money in a situation where seller misrepresented the item.

gflgs said:
Split the cost and in the future have photographic proof of conditions,
Click to expand...
Photographs are not reliable proofs, as, for example, the condition may change after the photograph is taken.

mhenley said:
Whenever I purchase something online, it is done with the understanding that if I need to return the product that I am willing to pay return shipping. I consider myself VERY lucky if I am offered a prepaid return label or if an individual offers to comp me for any portion of the cost.

Pay to return the items, make sure you get it insured and with delivery confirmation (because it's your responsibility to make sure they return to him), and either leave no heat or neutral heat; it doesn't sound like the seller is intentionally trying to screw you.
Click to expand...
Well, I come with a different expectation, which I stated above and will repeat: if I am paying for something, and do not get it, I expect to be "made whole" (e.g., through refund that would cover return shipping or replacement item).
 
cyberkost said:
I believe the there's a material difference between "just the board" and the "board with with foam glued on the back and a pin that may have suffered b/c of too much current flowing through a somewhat resistive contact generating too much heat causing the pin to deform". I purchased the former and received the latter. I appreciate the refund +1/2 shipping offer but do not see why I should lose money in a situation where seller misrepresented the item.


Photographs are not reliable proofs, as, for example, the condition may change after the photograph is taken.


Well, I come with a different expectation, which I stated above and will repeat: if I am paying for something, and do not get it, I expect to be "made whole" (e.g., through refund that would cover return shipping or replacement item).
Click to expand...

At the end of the day, its just going to be a "he said she said game". You could have accidentally bent the pin yourself and blamed it on the seller. Or it could have been the other way around. You started your own thread about this matter, and the seller did as well. At this point, we will never know the real truth. Just pay half shipping and get this matter done with. Just don't do business with each other again.
 
cyberkost said:
Well, I come with a different expectation, which I stated above and will repeat: if I am paying for something, and do not get it, I expect to be "made whole" (e.g., through refund that would cover return shipping or replacement item).
Click to expand...

yes but, unfortunately your expectation is unreasonable and no one agrees with it. also, paypal will not agree with it. your best option is to accept his offer to pay half shipping back. your other options are to keep the board and cpu or file a claim with paypal (and they will make you pay return shipping as well). honestly, if i was w00t id have decided id spent too much time and one too many threads on this issue already and told you to feel free to file a paypal claim.
 
It was a used board...

The pins, that's a problem, I totally agree and I wouldn't keep it for that reason -- Biostar is going to make you pay like $25 to get a new socket put on it, plus shipping costs and time. Not what you signed up for.

As for the foam... are you serious? If that's all that was wrong with it and you complained I would've just ignored you, and that is /not/ like me. Get some goo-b-gone and get rid of it.
 
I agree, shipping should be split half and half. When I purchase or sell things online, I know I'm heading into a riskier situation than buying retail or from an online shop, and there are caveats to be aware of.

As far as the foam, are you fucking kidding me? It seriously makes me rage that you're upset about it
 
Reality said:
I agree, shipping should be split half and half. When I purchase or sell things online, I know I'm heading into a riskier situation than buying retail or from an online shop, and there are caveats to be aware of.

As far as the foam, are you fucking kidding me? It seriously makes me rage that you're upset about it
Click to expand...

There is probably a much higher chance to get a brand new motherboard (from major e-tailers) with bent pins, and get the refund denied.



Look it up, it's pretty common.
 
Reality said:
I agree, shipping should be split half and half. When I purchase or sell things online, I know I'm heading into a riskier situation than buying retail or from an online shop, and there are caveats to be aware of.

As far as the foam, are you fucking kidding me? It seriously makes me rage that you're upset about it
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Cyberkost needs a reality check if he is that upset about some foam that would take all of 30 seconds and some rubbing alcohol to remove. As for the bent pin, that's reason to be upset but you didn't even test it and you're demanding a full refund PLUS return shipping? In my opinion, you only get return shipping if you test it and it doesn't work. If it works, and you still don't want it, w00t's offer of paying half is more than generous.
 
OP, I think you are a bit nuts on this. Test the board and see if there is anything wrong with it. If not, clean the pin and move forward. For what it is worth, I have yet to see a socket I could not fix with a good pair of tweezers and a magnifying glass.
 
adriantrances said:
There is probably a much higher chance to get a brand new motherboard (from major e-tailers) with bent pins, and get the refund denied.



Look it up, it's pretty common.
Click to expand...

are you quoting the wrong person? I wasn't inferring that it's less common to get a faulty product retail vs from a private seller. I was inferring that if something was faulty and you bought it retail, you could just take it back for a refund or replacement
 
I think OP is over reacting a little here. The seller seems to be more than reasonable. The foam is meaningless and that pin hardly looks mangled and would likely work just fine. If I were that picky about a motherboard (and that is OPs prerogative) then I'd probably stick to buying BNIB retail parts. I don't care how much you baby your gear, used items will always have SOMETHING blemished or bent.

Splitting the shipping cost is more than reasonable here.
 
OniFactor said:
shipping is not part of being "made whole" in the legal sense. it is a cost that you incurred, to a third party, in the transaction. there was no warranty implied or expressly displayed. If you bought a motherboard, and it had a bent pin, and you wanted to return it, you would be liable for return shipping at most major retailers. i don't know why you think a private party sale would be different. hell, since he included shipping in the price of the refund, theoretically, he could reduce the amount of the refund to cost to you, LESS original shipping, and you would still be "made whole."
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I am not sure what you mean. The deal was "$160 shipped". *I* paid for the items to be shipped to me. The seller used (part of) the money I sent him to pay for shipping. Said differently -- he paid for the shipping with my money (and the rest of my money was covering the cost of goods). This is not a frivolous return, "I changed my mind" kind of thing either.

OniFactor said:
when this guy says you're nuts........ well, you can figure where that's headed.
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I am fully aware that this is a privately owned forum and not some sort of democracy in action.
 
Seems to me the seller agree'd to split the shipping fees 50/50. That's more than reasonable, just do that and be done with it.
 
I'm going to have to chime in with most others here. Go with the split return shipping and just be done with it. From the other thread it looks like it'll be less than $7 out of your pocket total. You'll spend at least that amount in time here trying to defend how you're "right" and the seller is "wrong". If $7 is *that* tight for you, perhaps you should get some other priorities in line.
 
silent-circuit said:
As for the foam... are you serious? If that's all that was wrong with it and you complained I would've just ignored you, and that is /not/ like me. Get some goo-b-gone and get rid of it.
Click to expand...

No kidding, when I read "the foam lowers the board value substantially" I did a massive facepalm.
 
Eulogy said:
I'm going to have to chime in with most others here. Go with the split return shipping and just be done with it. From the other thread it looks like it'll be less than $7 out of your pocket total. You'll spend at least that amount in time here trying to defend how you're "right" and the seller is "wrong". If $7 is *that* tight for you, perhaps you should get some other priorities in line.
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I agree that $6.71 is not worth my time. The question is different though -- why should I lose money on item not as described (if I should lose any in the first place).

MavericK96 said:
No kidding, when I read "the foam lowers the board value substantially" I did a massive facepalm.
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MavericK96, it may not lower the value to you. It does lower the value to me. Please accept that. I you want a rationale -- here it is: in order to remove the foam, I would need to spend time and resources, which is of value to me. What you quoted is an incomplete sentence, the statement I made (available in in the PM exchange quoted in the OP) had "it lowers the value of the motherboard to me", with to me being an essential part of it.
 
With 600+ trades (is it?) I am amazed you haven't had issues like this regularly due to your unreasonable expectations. I'm going to go put a "may come with foam" warning in my FS/FT thread.
 
Mr34727 said:
You bought it on a forum, used. So, yes you did.
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.. and if it came covered in peach jam, I'd have to clean it up as well?
.. and repair the pin too? Where's the line? I am unable to replicate your logic. Please clarify.
 
In my perspective this is not "ugly." The seller appears to act very well, and that reflects in his heatware rating.

I read the exchange expecting something much worse.
He accepted your return and you should be glad at that. He advertised the item as fully functional and you have no evidence to the contrary.

I think the return shipping is the responsibility of the buyer, in this case.
 
It sucks that some how the pin got bent, but really man you dont have time to simply take off the foam? You are wasting more of your time on this thread.. Those little foam thing come right off. They are very sticking so you just have to apply a little bit of strength.
 
I think the seller should pay return shipping only if it was a deliberate misrepresentation. However, when there is a mutual mistake as to the quality of the pin the contract should be rescinded and buyer and seller should be returned to the financial state they were in initially, less incidental costs (shipping) apportioned equally between the two parties, since neither was directly at fault. As for the foam, any injury from that, as we say in law is de minimus, since it doesn't affect the quality of the board and can be removed in about 30 seconds.
 
cyberkost said:
MavericK96, it may not lower the value to you. It does lower the value to me. Please accept that. I you want a rationale -- here it is: in order to remove the foam, I would need to spend time and resources, which is of value to me. What you quoted is an incomplete sentence, the statement I made (available in in the PM exchange quoted in the OP) had "it lowers the value of the motherboard to me", with to me being an essential part of it.
Click to expand...

That's fine, but to me that is facepalm-worthy.

I am just genuinely wondering how much "substantially less" you think it is worth with the foam.

As for the topic as a whole, I'm in agreement with Kyle (and others). Test the board and if it works, no biggie. The pin does not appear significantly bent (I could barely even tell it was different from the picture TBH) and the foam will likely get covered up by whatever HSF you put on there, anyway. Or just peel it off. Either way, you're never going to see it.
 
cyberkost said:
.. and if it came covered in peach jam, I'd have to clean it up as well?
.. and repair the pin too? Where's the line? I am unable to replicate your logic. Please clarify.
Click to expand...

well you can keep making demands that everyone but you thinks are ridiculous and go nowhere, or you can accept his offer to pay half shipping. in the future maybe you should stick to buying new if youre that picky. ive bought used components with a thick layer of dust, bent pins, scratches, missing small heat sinks... its part of buying used parts.
 
you're being ridiculous. if you want an item to be in absolutely pristine condition, buy it new. we buy used goods here with the expectation that they're not in brand new condition. yes, it may cost you some time to bring it up to that condition. that's why you pay less than retail price.
 
All this drama over a few dollars. I'd say split the freaking shipping and be done. Just like other people have said. Don't let this spiral into a worse situation where negative feedback is left, Paypal claims filed, etc...

At one point you have to ask yourself, "Is a few bucks REALLY worth all the time, effort, and headache this is causing me?"
 
You can think circles around this all day, or you can take the sellers generous offer of half shipping and be done with it. If the condition of used items bother you this much, just buy it new. He isn't required to refund your shipping.

If you spent half the time using your fingers to clean the foam off and fixing the pin as you did typing overly verbose arguments on an internet forum trying to get a extra $7 back, the board would probably be like new again.
 
I need to respond to all this crazyness, I'm trying to be reasonable as a seller buy cyberkost
has no interest in it.

1)The shipping costs. The board was 160 shipped with the cpu AKA you paid NOTHING to
have me ship the board to you, I took the loss, and spent extra to use priority mail.

2)The foam blocks. They are attached with double sided tape, which many people have told
you are removable with goo gone or rubbing alcohol. Honestly if i had thought this would
have been an issue, they would have been removed, but i thought anyone buying the board
for overclocking purposes would have known the above and not freaked out.

3)The board was used, it's not going to be in pristine condition after having been used for
a month. The socket was perfect when it left my home, with a socket protector in place.
If you damaged it, or shipping did, I have no way of telling. This is why I offered you a
refund, and to split the difference with the return shipping. Apparently this is not to your
satisfaction.

5) Sensationalist claims "filled with peach jam". You can clearly see in the picture that YOU took
that it would be a matter of taking a sewing pin and lightly pulling the one minorly bent pins back
into place. You are blowing this way out proportion.

I sell things regularly here, ask anyone I've sold to, I'll stand behind what i sell and still am
offering to split the difference in return shipping while giving you a refund on a board that left my house
in pristine condition now which is damaged.
 
cyberkost said:
I am not sure what you mean. The deal was "$160 shipped". *I* paid for the items to be shipped to me. The seller used (part of) the money I sent him to pay for shipping. Said differently -- he paid for the shipping with my money (and the rest of my money was covering the cost of goods). This is not a frivolous return, "I changed my mind" kind of thing either.


I am fully aware that this is a privately owned forum and not some sort of democracy in action.
Click to expand...

He's giving you back the full amount you paid , but the shipping company is not giving him back the original shipping cost. So yes, he, and not you, is covering the original shipping.

Even if he finds someone that wants the board for the same amount you negotiated, he's still going to be out that original shipping cost. Now that it has history, that's not going to happen.

So you're expecting him to compensate you in a way that makes him lose out on time, 2x the original shipping, and a reduction of the value of his goods because of what seems to be no one's fault, while you're just out some time? I suspect you're going to end up on a few folks DNT lists.
 
positive heat for w00tMkay. A seller that stands behind his sale.
The delayed shipping isn't good, but ultimately he's giving you a refund and splitting return shipping.
That's a good seller even if he was late 2 days on initial shipping.

cut your losses (1/2 return shipping) and move on. There's other things in life to worry about.
 
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