Even a chance for OLED monitors?

sh4dow

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I've been following OLED news for years now and was very excited recently, when the first TV (well... aside from that Sony thing...) finally went on sale (or so reports about it being released in Monte Carlo lead me to believe). And there's actually a thread about it right on this forum, which I only just now found.

But besides some things that are being criticized about OLED displays (some sort of "black splotches" for instance - which I've never seen on my Samsung Galaxy though...), recently another thing came to my mind: plasma TVs.

And at least on wikipedia, it says "Plasma displays are highly susceptible to burn-in, while LCD-type displays are generally less so. Because of the more rapid luminance degradation of current organic compounds used in OLED-type displays, OLED is even more susceptible to burn-in than plasma."
No source provided though.

So is OLED yet another technology that will really only be good for TVs, mostly just watching shows/movies because even games could cause burn in?
And is there any other hope on the horizon I may not be aware of?
 
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Interesting find, thanks for sharing. I'm sure I read that OLED was not a technology where burn-in was possible at all, hence essentially a totally opposing view. I wonder who is right ?

1000
 
OLED have big problems with burn-in, especially blue component
I think it will be few more years till we have OLED monitors on our desks
or there will never be OLED as there are other nice technologies like QD-LED that supposedly are more prone to burn-in
 
@ 1000:

You're welcome. (I've updated my original post to include some articles for those who haven't read about these things)
And... that's where I hoped the more technologically proficient members of this forum would chip in. Because I just don't know enough about how OLED works.
All I know is that at least on my phone, I did observe some image retention when using it at high brightness values with the status bar visible. Which did obviously go away after displaying a blank screen for a while at max. brightness but I suppose would make OLED just as unsuitable for computer use as a plasma screen.
 
Interesting find, thanks for sharing. I'm sure I read that OLED was not a technology where burn-in was possible at all, hence essentially a totally opposing view. I wonder who is right ?

1000

I am sure screen burn is an issue. One of the reasons it's taken so long to get OLED to market is because of problems with unequal ageing of the different colours. This must happen quite quickly, or it wouldn't be a problem. And that must mean susceptibility to screen burn.

That said, whereas there are reports of screen burn on Samsung Super Amoled phone screens, these are no so widespread as to indicate any showstopping problem. My Samsung Galaxy S3 shows no signs of it after about 1 year of use and I am not very careful about screen brightness and static images.
 
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Interesting video by the way - not seen that before.

And €8000 or €9000 for a 55" OLED TV at launch is really not that bad. I paid that for my first 42" plasma! I am sure they will be LCD prices or lower eventually - I think it's potentially easier to make an OLED screen than an LED screen once they iron out the wrinkles and get the volume up.
 
LG uses W-OLED, or white OLED with a colour filter to get the RGB pixels. Samsung is the only one using RGB OLED so far with separate red, green and blue OLED components. Burn-in/image retention between these two types of OLED panels should be widely different.

Both will have their 55" OLED HDTVs out for sale later this year, ready for some substantial testing.

I know of one person using the LG 15" OLED TV for display purposes and he was pretty much blown away by it. He didn't mention burn-in and such, though.

Eventually OLED will give way to QLED anyway, which should have no burn-in at all, being inorganic and solid-state.
 
It will be few years, before OLED makes it at home at normal prices. In Europe, the official release will take place in september's IFA in Berlin, but it doesn't mean they will be aviable to purchase in fall. Then we need to wait year or two, before prices drop and money starts rolling for LG/Samsung.

Then it will be some time needed to make monitors, and sell them in a good price. So I believe at best 3-4 years.
 
LG uses W-OLED, or white OLED with a colour filter to get the RGB pixels. Samsung is the only one using RGB OLED so far with separate red, green and blue OLED components. Burn-in/image retention between these two types of OLED panels should be widely different.

On first thought I figured "that's true" but then... image retention is more than just uneven wear after all.
If it was just that and one single OLED would last maybe 30k hours, why would one be able to see the effect of uneven wear after just displaying the same image for 2-3 hours?
So it must be something else that has to do with OLEDs displaying the same thing for a while. If white OLEDs themselves behave the same way as RGB OLEDs do, then that effect should also be the same. It may look slightly different because it then would affect basically to the whole pixel instead of a subpixel but still...
 
I know of one person using the LG 15" OLED TV for display purposes and he was pretty much blown away by it. He didn't mention burn-in and such, though.

You mean display for a computer? You should ask him about burn-in then one of these days :)

Eventually OLED will give way to QLED anyway, which should have no burn-in at all, being inorganic and solid-state.

Maybe. But by then I'll be almost dead anyway... technology progresses so slowly these days...
 
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Eventually OLED will give way to QLED anyway, which should have no burn-in at all, being inorganic and solid-state.

Don't really know what you mean there. LCD is inorganic and solid state, and that suffers from burn in. Come to think of it, plasma is inorganic and solid state as well, and that certainly suffers from burn in.
 
I really don't want to see QLED making it to the market as I read about it being half OLED half LCD.
The whole point of OLED is to remove completely the angle problem, the ghosting/blurring problem, and to never again have such a huge difference between the amount of light coming out from a white pixel compared to an almost black pixel. The less light a pure white will emit, while staying true white and having enough contrast compared to black, the more healthy eyes we will have.
And this will never happen with anything that is LCD, ever...
 
OLED have big problems with burn-in, especially blue component

There are a LOT of people getting this confused. This is two separate issues that are unrelated. In terms of burn-in, I've heard mixed things. I haven't seen burn in be an issue on mobile OLEDs, nor have very many people had large OLED-based televisions long enough for us to see. But then, this could be a non-issue like it is with today's plasmas.

As for the blue issue, again, nothing to do with burn in. Basically, an LCD is typically rated with a lifespan, IE, how long until the backlight reaches half-brightness. In OLED, the subpixels are self-illuminated, and the blue pixel reaches half-brightness about twice as fast as red and green. Take your TV/Monitor and dial back ONLY the blue color and see what happens. With OLED, this would become noticeable in as little as two years with typical TV usage.
 
I really don't want to see QLED making it to the market as I read about it being half OLED half LCD.
The whole point of OLED is to remove completely the angle problem, the ghosting/blurring problem, and to never again have such a huge difference between the amount of light coming out from a white pixel compared to an almost black pixel. The less light a pure white will emit, while staying true white and having enough contrast compared to black, the more healthy eyes we will have.
And this will never happen with anything that is LCD, ever...

You must be thinking of QDEF which uses a film of quantum dots to extend the colour gamut of existing LCD technology. 'Actual' QLED will work on the same principals as OLED but is inorganic.
 
But then, this could be a non-issue like it is with today's plasmas.

Non-issue? With horror I remember when I played Rock Band on my roommate's plasma TV... which he treated as if it was his child. And after just a couple of hours, various score displays were visible in black areas of other images. Even just running some gradient against image retention for only two hours didn't help, I had to run it for around five hours. I never played on that damn thing again, my roommate would've gotten a heart attack had he gotten home and seen that.
 
Has there been any reports of issues with Sony's lineup of OLED (PVM2541) models? Or even their Vita (may be too soon yet). If burn-in isn't an issue with those, we may be good. I'm not sure how Sony is approaching OLED though... W-OLED or RGB... or what they are using.
 
The less light a pure white will emit, while staying true white and having enough contrast compared to black, the more healthy eyes we will have.
And this will never happen with anything that is LCD, ever...

I second that. Well... I don't know about the health but I finally got myself an LCD today and am running it at 60cd/m². I don't get why people would want to use more than 100 cd/m². Personally, I want my screen to replicate the real world as close as possible - and at least according to my perception, things generally don't glow like crazy. And which is also why I can't stand to see that grey rectangle when I sit in a darkened room.
But... what are you gonna do. You have to make do with what's available... :rolleyes:
 
Don't really know what you mean there. LCD is inorganic and solid state, and that suffers from burn in. Come to think of it, plasma is inorganic and solid state as well, and that certainly suffers from burn in.

LCDs aren't fully solid-state. It uses the physical motion of liquid crystals to manipulate the light from the backlight and polarization filter.

Actual burn-in with phosphor-based displays (CRT, PDP) is due to the phosphors becoming over-stimulated and 'burning out', resulting in a permanent image. Burn-in with LCDs is due to the crystals becoming locked permanently in a certain position.

There's no burn-in with OLED, just uneven wear, as pointed out earlier already. For W-OLED the longest lifespan OLED component would be used, however, ensuring that it should last across the whole display at least as long as an LCD backlight. It'll be interesting to see how LG's OLED HDTV behaves under stress-testing, though.
 
Far as I'm concerned Samsung will be the first TRUE manufacturer of OLED TV sets. This W-OLED looks nice but I don't want a stop gap solution.
 
i read that sony and panasonic just signed a deal to co-manufacture them. i think they are going to start at the end of this year
 
There are a LOT of people getting this confused. This is two separate issues that are unrelated. In terms of burn-in, I've heard mixed things. I haven't seen burn in be an issue on mobile OLEDs, nor have very many people had large OLED-based televisions long enough for us to see. But then, this could be a non-issue like it is with today's plasmas.

As for the blue issue, again, nothing to do with burn in. Basically, an LCD is typically rated with a lifespan, IE, how long until the backlight reaches half-brightness. In OLED, the subpixels are self-illuminated, and the blue pixel reaches half-brightness about twice as fast as red and green. Take your TV/Monitor and dial back ONLY the blue color and see what happens. With OLED, this would become noticeable in as little as two years with typical TV usage.

Very interesting. I have seen a lot of Galaxy OLED handsets where I see a blue tinge/tint that is quite prominent. I always assumed it was because Samsung used a cooler colour temperature ... maybe it's the tech itself ?

1000
 
LCDs aren't fully solid-state. It uses the physical motion of liquid crystals to manipulate the light from the backlight and polarization filter.

Actual burn-in with phosphor-based displays (CRT, PDP) is due to the phosphors becoming over-stimulated and 'burning out', resulting in a permanent image. Burn-in with LCDs is due to the crystals becoming locked permanently in a certain position.

There's no burn-in with OLED, just uneven wear, as pointed out earlier already. For W-OLED the longest lifespan OLED component would be used, however, ensuring that it should last across the whole display at least as long as an LCD backlight. It'll be interesting to see how LG's OLED HDTV behaves under stress-testing, though.

Interesting. And fair point about LCD - I wasn't thinking about the crystal alignment.
 
There's no burn-in with OLED, just uneven wear,
I hate to ask, but where did the belief that there is a 'burn in' problem with OLED's?
Burn-in with LCDs is due to the crystals becoming locked permanently in a certain position.
But, isn't that just a stuck pixel??
 
Very interesting. I have seen a lot of Galaxy OLED handsets where I see a blue tinge/tint that is quite prominent. I always assumed it was because Samsung used a cooler colour temperature ... maybe it's the tech itself ?

1000

If the blue pixels age twice as fast, you'd expect the displays colour to shift away from blue, i.e. towards yellow, over time.
 
Non-issue? With horror I remember when I played Rock Band on my roommate's plasma TV... which he treated as if it was his child. And after just a couple of hours, various score displays were visible in black areas of other images. Even just running some gradient against image retention for only two hours didn't help, I had to run it for around five hours. I never played on that damn thing again, my roommate would've gotten a heart attack had he gotten home and seen that.

What year was this set manufactured in? If it was modern, was it a cheaper set? I've also seen some horrible burn-in on plasmas (watched the 2005 NFL draft on one over the weekend, ended up with a near permanent ESPN ticker). The fact that you didn't use a "white wash" or other anti-burn in technique tells me that you either didn't know about it (nothing wrong there), or it was a plasma that wasn't equipped with it. If the latter, then this isn't one of those newer sets that doesn't have burn-in issues, and thus, this set doesn't disprove my point.
 
I hate to ask, but where did the belief that there is a 'burn in' problem with OLED's?
Where it originated? No idea, I think it's just a misnomer when people confused different terms like 'burn-in' and 'uneven wear'. The result is fairly similar after all, even if the underlying mechanism is totally different.

But, isn't that just a stuck pixel??
Basically, yes. Those which are the result of burn-in can become stuck in a state in between fully open or fully closed, though, resulting in the displayed image being retained indefinitely.
 
all thoes Samsung phone AMOLED screens that I've seen I thought that they were not amazing at all, they look dark and the color is terrible even when you try to adjust brightness

and as LG said it themselvs...

http://www.oled-info.com/lg-samsung...lays-are-not-suitable-smartphones-and-tablets

but the Sony XEL-1 that I saw a couple of years back playing a blu-ray disc was the most amazing display I have ever seen.

hoping we do see them in computer monitors
 
Oled burning is a big issue. I had to send my Galaxy S to service due to faulty vibrator and they had to change the whole display. The display I got had massive burn in issue, ghost image and weird purple tint (obviously someones old panel). They did change it to new on when I whined. Original panel had small burn in issues too (notification bar and icons).
 
What year was this set manufactured in? If it was modern, was it a cheaper set? I've also seen some horrible burn-in on plasmas (watched the 2005 NFL draft on one over the weekend, ended up with a near permanent ESPN ticker). The fact that you didn't use a "white wash" or other anti-burn in technique tells me that you either didn't know about it (nothing wrong there), or it was a plasma that wasn't equipped with it. If the latter, then this isn't one of those newer sets that doesn't have burn-in issues, and thus, this set doesn't disprove my point.

I ran a Panasonic TH-42PW3 plasma as my only TV (and being a couch potato, I watched maybe 5 hours per day minimum) from 2000 to 2009. 10 years x 365 days x 5 hours and there is not one hint of screen burn. I was precious about it for the first year or so, and after that just didn't care and left all sorts of logos, banners and static images on the screen. Never burned a thing. IR was noticeable occasionally, but it always disappeared soon.
 
There's no burn-in with OLED, just uneven wear, as pointed out earlier already. .

That is exactly what burn-in is.

Plasma/CRT/OLED all burn-in the same way. Emitters that are used more wear out more and get dimmer. The main difference is the rate of wear. Short life = faster burn in. That is why displays with weak OLED blue are very susceptible to burn in. Which is why I think LG WOLED will be a better TV than the Samsung RGB OLED.

QLED display emitters are where OLED was a decade ago. The have their own blue problems, short lifespan and are extremely expensive.

I doubt we will see a QLED display before 2020.
 
Plasma/CRT/OLED all burn-in the same way. Emitters that are used more wear out more and get dimmer. The main difference is the rate of wear. Short life = faster burn in. [..]
The better term than 'burn-in' has to be 'uneven loss of luminance': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_burn-in

This describes more accurately what is going on, namely the degradation of the emitter and not a catastrophic failure such as with LCD burn-in which isn't caused by luminance degradation.

QLED display emitters are where OLED was a decade ago. The have their own blue problems, short lifespan and are extremely expensive.

I doubt we will see a QLED display before 2020.

At least they aren't organic, though :)
 
Those which are the result of burn-in can become stuck in a state in between fully open or fully closed, though, resulting in the displayed image being retained indefinitely.
Thus, appearing as a "burn", CRT style. Correct?
 
And at least on wikipedia, it says "Plasma displays are highly susceptible to burn-in, while LCD-type displays are generally less so. Because of the more rapid luminance degradation of current organic compounds used in OLED-type displays, OLED is even more susceptible to burn-in than plasma."

Wikipedia is worthless for displays. The only good articles are written by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Panjasan. As it typical with Wikipedia, they deleted his ICDM article.

Sony regards their OLED monitors to have better resistance to burn-in than PDP. The 30,000 hr lifetime of the displays is higher than the estimate given for their CRTs although it is probably generous (measured 17K for XEL-1).

PC monitors are only a distant prospect. While the efficiency required to resist burn-in at a certain brightness will eventually appear, there is little prospect of orders by monitor manufacturers. The panel and IC cost would have to be below LCD for it to gain market share. For the present and near future you will have to combine an LCD monitor for general tasks and a desktop size OLED display for video and games. This is what we will see happening.

I've just bought a 15EL9500 btw, but it is still stuck in shipping.
 
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Basically burn in will always be a potential issue with emissive displays, that is technologies where the individual units generate their own light. The reason is those units can fade at different rates when subject to different levels of wear. Now such a problem can be mitigated, after all we were able to use CRTs for computers and with proper use burn in wasn't a big issue, but it will always be a potential problem.

Blocking technologies, like LCDs, where there is a light source for the whole display and then it blocks it out selectively with something else, can be immune to burn in (that doesn't mean they will be, other issues could still present for burn in, just that they can be). The light source fades uniformly so no burn in problems there.

With OLED, we'll just have to see. Remember that it isn't like companies wouldn't love a new technology to sell people on. Now that most people have HDTVs, their sales are leveling off and they need the next big thing to get people buying more. The reasons they aren't out there are technical ones. When they are solved, you'll see them.
 
W-OLED backlights to could be appearing fairly soon, I believe. W-OLED has wider application range and will work with existing tech so it will be quicker to pick up production levels.

Not too exiting but at least it will probably take care of uniformity, backlightbleed, etc. Also better color reproduction. Perhaps they'll get the area or even per pixel lighting working, then we would see much better contrast levels. If they got that working then the only problems left with IPS would be ghosting and glow. :)
 
Thus, appearing as a "burn", CRT style. Correct?

Not exactly. With uneven phosphor luminance degradation ('burn-in') the affected pixels simply won't light up any more and appear greyish in colour. With LCD dead subpixels will keep showing the same colour they got stuck on for all time.

Net result is basically that LCD burn-in is prettier to look at :p
 
W-OLED backlights to could be appearing fairly soon, I believe. W-OLED has wider application range and will work with existing tech so it will be quicker to pick up production levels.

Not too exiting but at least it will probably take care of uniformity, backlightbleed, etc. Also better color reproduction. Perhaps they'll get the area or even per pixel lighting working, then we would see much better contrast levels. If they got that working then the only problems left with IPS would be ghosting and glow. :)

I want to see someone run some proper tests on one of the LG W-OLED HDTVs already. I'd love see how it does perform if abused severely :) With how people have have game consoles, DVRs, etc. hooked up to their HDTVs, is there even such a big difference between TVs and PC monitors any more?
 
The better term than 'burn-in' has to be 'uneven loss of luminance':

On the contrary. Burn-in is the perfect term for emitter wear. It describes perfectly what is happening if you repeat the same image on the screen and activate the same emitters and the wear-down/burn-in.

CRT/Plasma/OLED are all emitters technologies and they all burn in. This is pretty much a certainty that this will occur in static image scenarios.

I like "Image Retention" for non emitter wear/burn scenarios.

In addition to the above, Plasmas can also be susceptible to short term Image Retention (reversible) due to charge accumulation issues.

LCDs potentially suffer a different issue with the potential for short term/long term image retention. Short term it seems to be charge accumulation limiting LCD switching function and can be reversed(much like Plasma IR). The very rare long term irreversible LCD image retention has no well documented mechanism that I am aware off. But is a loss of full LCD switching range. But this is rare and there is no certainty it will happen even in long term static imaging use.
 
W-OLED backlights to could be appearing fairly soon, I believe. W-OLED has wider application range and will work with existing tech so it will be quicker to pick up production levels.

Not too exiting but at least it will probably take care of uniformity, backlightbleed, etc. Also better color reproduction. Perhaps they'll get the area or even per pixel lighting working, then we would see much better contrast levels. If they got that working then the only problems left with IPS would be ghosting and glow. :)

Extremely unlikely.

You think they are going to take an inexpensive LCD and put a very expensive OLED backlight with pretty much no advantage, but the disadvantage of increased cost. Not going to happen.

Just like LED backlights didn't really solve any LCD issues, neither would an OLED backlight.
 
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