CS Major laptop - 2012 MBP/MBA vs Thinkpad X230

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wumbo

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Hello [H], I'm going to be an incoming freshman this fall studying computer science and I'm in the market for a laptop right now, which will be my main computer. It's between the (just released today) MBP 13" (lowest model, for $1200), the 11" MBA with 128 GB SSD for $1100, or a Thinkpad X230 (i5, 9 Cell battery).

I've had 2 Thinkpads in the past, most recently an Edge and enjoyed using it and actually liked the keyboard and thinklight, but I've never owned a Mac before. I'm looking for:

-Powerful enough for occasional/light gaming (maybe D3 on lowest settings, TF2, Minecraft)
-Powerful enough for 720-1080p streaming and movies
-Lightweight for traveling and carrying around campus
-Long battery life
-Strong build quality, good components (quality screen and enough horsepower to do tasks well)

I'm open minded, I don't have a hatred towards Windows or OS X, I just don't want to end up with junk and I've had great luck with Thinkpads and my family has had Macbooks with luck as well. Budget around $1200+tax (obviously lower is better), these three models I kind of have my heart set on.

tl;dr: Majoring in CS, between X230, MBA 11" 128, and MBP 13", need lightweight, great build quality, and power with budget of $1200, which is best?
 
13" MBP hands down.

Having a terminal for code compiling/debugging is priceless. (And I'm a die hard windows user, but I use a Mac at work)

Trying to get a windows form of GCC working on my Win 7 box = me just using VirtualBox to run a VM for CentOS 6 :p

Also, the previous version of the MBP could run D3 at the highest settings, with the new 650M GPU and IB, i really doubt you'll need to run it at lowest settings.
 
I have a few friends in CS already and they're trying to steer me into OS X for the Unix environment, I keep hearing more and more people telling me to so I may just need to.

The MBP in my budget has:

13-inch: 2.5 GHz
2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i5
Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz
4GB 1600MHz memory
500GB 5400-rpm hard drive
Intel HD Graphics 4000
Built-in battery (7 hours)
 
wumbo said:
I have a few friends in CS already and they're trying to steer me into OS X for the Unix environment, I keep hearing more and more people telling me to so I may just need to.

The MBP in my budget has:

13-inch: 2.5 GHz
2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i5
Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz
4GB 1600MHz memory
500GB 5400-rpm hard drive
Intel HD Graphics 4000
Built-in battery (7 hours)
Click to expand...

You'd be a fool to buy a MBP for using in your CS classes. You can get a Windows/Linux based laptop with a QUAD core cpu, larger screen, more ram, and more HDD space for less than half of what you would pay for the MBP. And OSX is NOT the platform to learn if you want UNIX experience as it's a bastardized version of BSD that doesn't adhere to conventional standards. The server world revolves around Linux like it or not and Apple has done enough to OSX to make it all but useless for learning administration on.

I've had my Masters in CS for over a decade now. The one thing all the CS programs have in common is misinformation based on what vendors they have decided to align themselves with in exchange for "special considerations" whether they be software discounts or other kickbacks. This bias tends to filter down into the student body as if they were lemmings marching to their demise.

As an administrator, when I see someone toting around a MBP, the first thing that pops into my head isn't "wow nice laptop". It's "there goes another sucker that can't look past the hype and realize they're overpaying for nothing special".

Also, I do not know if this happens on the laptops too or only the desktops, but if you try to replace the HDD from a recent MAC desktop with a HDD that was not bought from Apple, then it will still work but with the caveat the system fans rev up to 100% all the time and stay that way until an Apple sourced HDD is installed. This caused my immediate predecessor to lose his job after talking our boss into buying Macs to replace some out of date pcs we had in service. As soon as my boss realized the amount of vendor lockin Apple forces upon its customers and the increased cost of replacement parts he sent the guy packing.
 
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Well not to contradict what you're saying, but I'm studying CS as in Software Engineering, not Networking. I am open to everyone's opinion (especially those like you in the industry) and have had a lot of students tell me OSX is more suited, but personally, I'd prefer to get the X230 to save on money but am willing to spend more if it would yield more quality and a better programming environment.

Edit: Just saw the part that you added, I'd have to agree. I'd like an Ultrabook or a MBA, but the thing I don't like about them is the fact that many (or all?) have either proprietary hardware or are soldered and cannot be upgraded. That's why the X230 appeals to me, on top of being the successor to the X220.
 
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Gman1979 said:
You'd be a fool to buy a MBP for using in your CS classes. You can get a Windows/Linux based laptop with a QUAD core cpu, larger screen, more ram, and more HDD space for less than half of what you would pay for the MBP. And OSX is NOT the platform to learn if you want UNIX experience as it's a bastardized version of BSD that doesn't adhere to conventional standards. The server world revolves around Linux like it or not and Apple has done enough to OSX to make it all but useless for learning administration on.

I've had my Masters in CS for over a decade now. The one thing all the CS programs have in common is misinformation based on what vendors they have decided to align themselves with in exchange for "special considerations" whether they be software discounts or other kickbacks. This bias tends to filter down into the student body as if they were lemmings marching to their demise.

As an administrator, when I see someone toting around a MBP, the first thing that pops into my head isn't "wow nice laptop". It's "there goes another sucker that can't look past the hype and realize they're overpaying for nothing special".

Also, I do not know if this happens on the laptops too or only the desktops, but if you try to replace the HDD from a recent MAC desktop with a HDD that was not bought from Apple, then it will still work but with the caveat the system fans rev up to 100% all the time and stay that way until an Apple sourced HDD is installed. This caused my immediate predecessor to lose his job after talking our boss into buying Macs to replace some out of date pcs we had in service. As soon as my boss realized the amount of vendor lockin Apple forces upon its customers and the increased cost of replacement parts he sent the guy packing.
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Holy crap well put, and I agree. If you want to have to compromise and fiddle with OSX to make it work in the Linux/Windows CS world, then go ahead.

My advice:
Get a 220/230 with 16GB RAM, Win7 Pro and buy VMWare Workstation 8.
If you need OSX in your classes (I cannot imagine why), run it in a VM.
Linux? VM it. I like FreeBSD and Ubuntu Server myself. GUI is for suckers.

And if you are unable to get a GCC working under Win7, you should find another hobby, as this is not the career path for you.
 
I don't mean to suggest something you're not asking for......but,

Build a nice mITX desktop instead......then you can game too. I'm a Unix guy, but I'd still rather have a custom PC. You can run a VM if you want linux/unix.

With the money you save, buy a used laptop, do a fresh install......then you have the best of both worlds. Portability when you want it, power when you want it, and a unix terminal when you want it.
 
schizrade said:
Holy crap well put, and I agree. If you want to have to compromise and fiddle with OSX to make it work in the Linux/Windows CS world, then go ahead.

My advice:
Get a 220/230 with 16GB RAM, Win7 Pro and buy VMWare Workstation 8.
If you need OSX in your classes (I cannot imagine why), run it in a VM.
Linux? VM it. I like FreeBSD and Ubuntu Server myself. GUI is for suckers.

And if you are unable to get a GCC working under Win7, you should find another hobby, as this is not the career path for you.
Click to expand...

I'm about 1 click away from an X230, with an i5, 4gb RAM (I'll just get some at Microcenter or on Newegg), 9 cell, Premium screen, and the upgraded Wireless card for $825 prior to tax, deal? I know the big complaint is the switch to the new keyboard but I don't mind chiclet keys and would prefer the HD 4000 graphics. Is it worth skipping on the 9 cell battery to get the Ultrabase for more battery or would the 9 cell do the trick?
 
My x220 has an i7 and a 9 cell and it can go 8 hours just web surfing with the brightness @ 75%.

The IPS screen is great as well.
 
akg102 said:
I don't mean to suggest something you're not asking for......but,

Build a nice mITX desktop instead......then you can game too. I'm a Unix guy, but I'd still rather have a custom PC. You can run a VM if you want linux/unix.

With the money you save, buy a used laptop, do a fresh install......then you have the best of both worlds. Portability when you want it, power when you want it, and a unix terminal when you want it.
Click to expand...

I'm commuting to my school :/ I'm also getting a laptop for when I travel hence the lightweight as well. I have a 2600k rig at the moment.

schizrade said:
My x220 has an i7 and a 9 cell and it can go 8 hours just web surfing with the brightness @ 75%.

The IPS screen is great as well.
Click to expand...

The IPS screen (as well as USB 3.0, HD4000, and slight processor bump) is one of the main selling factors for me, is the "Premium HD" their way of saying IPS or are they not shipping them yet with IPS screens?
 
When you get to the 'real world', especially in web programming, Macs are incredibly popular. So is Linux, and if you get a Windows laptop (or even a Mac laptop) you can just run Linux in a virtual machine - it runs great and you can do everything you can on actual Linux server with it.

wumbo said:
Hello [H], I'm going to be an incoming freshman this fall studying computer science and I'm in the market for a laptop right now, which will be my main computer. It's between the (just released today) MBP 13" (lowest model, for $1200), the 11" MBA with 128 GB SSD for $1100, or a Thinkpad X230 (i5, 9 Cell battery).
Click to expand...

The battery life of the 11" Air isn't that great. 3-4 hours. It also has the 1366x768 resolution that the X220 has - which stinks for programming. The 13" Air has a 1440x900 screen (and more like 6-7 hours battery life), which is a huge improvement, I'd look at that model. Or if you want to stay with Lenovo, you could get a T420 which has a better resolution screen and a great battery.

Gman1979 said:
You'd be a fool to buy a MBP for using in your CS classes. You can get a Windows/Linux based laptop with a QUAD core cpu, larger screen, more ram, and more HDD space for less than half of what you would pay for the MBP.
Click to expand...

And then you can cross your fingers that all the specific hardware in your laptop is supported (and supported well) by Linux. Spending hours tweaking it, researching it... No worries with OS X.

Also, I do not know if this happens on the laptops too or only the desktops, but if you try to replace the HDD from a recent MAC desktop with a HDD that was not bought from Apple, then it will still work but with the caveat the system fans rev up to 100% all the time and stay that way until an Apple sourced HDD is installed.
Click to expand...

This is true - the newer iMacs have a temperature sensor that you either need to short out (or get an install kit to do it) or the fans will spin up after it's been running for a while. Or, you can do what I did, and use one-line Automator script that turns the HDD fan to whatever speed you want. I have it set on 1400rpm which you can't hear.

The laptops don't have that issue - you can replace the hard drive in them and that's that.
 
wumbo said:
The IPS screen (as well as USB 3.0, HD4000, and slight processor bump) is one of the main selling factors for me, is the "Premium HD" their way of saying IPS or are they not shipping them yet with IPS screens?
Click to expand...

Yes, they are IPS.
 
Of the three choices you put forth I'd take the Thinkpad x230, personally. The HD 4000 will do some gaming on low settings, the screen is brilliant, and the keyboard is good despite the changes.

Macs are great too, but they're also different. Not that different is bad, but it's something to consider.

I saw someone mention earlier that you might want to build a desktop and buy a used laptop? If you don't have a desktop and this is going to be a primary machine, you might also look into the Thinkpad T-series, with the T430 and T430s. At 14" they're still small enough to be portable but you'd gain a few things as well that would give you more power (if you have a desktop I'd say stick with the more super portable options though).
 
robvas said:
And then you can cross your fingers that all the specific hardware in your laptop is supported (and supported well) by Linux. Spending hours tweaking it, researching it... No worries with OS X.
Click to expand...

VM's take care of that. VMWare Workstation is a beast. Win/Lin only.

The only benefit of going Mac in this situation is the Apple logo on the back of the lid.
 
OrangeWolf said:
Of the three choices you put forth I'd take the Thinkpad x230, personally. The HD 4000 will do some gaming on low settings, the screen is brilliant, and the keyboard is good despite the changes.

Macs are great too, but they're also different. Not that different is bad, but it's something to consider.

I saw someone mention earlier that you might want to build a desktop and buy a used laptop? If you don't have a desktop and this is going to be a primary machine, you might also look into the Thinkpad T-series, with the T430 and T430s. At 14" they're still small enough to be portable but you'd gain a few things as well that would give you more power (if you have a desktop I'd say stick with the more super portable options though).
Click to expand...

For $925 prior to tax ($735 without the NVS card), I could get the T430 with:
Intel Core i5-3210M Processor (3M Cache, 2.50GHz)
Genuine Windows 7 Professional (64 bit)
14.0" HD+ (1600 x 900) LED Backlit AntiGlare Display, Mobile Broadband Ready
NVIDIA N13P-NS1 Optimus Graphics with 1GB DDR3 Memory
4 GB PC3-12800 DDR3 (1 DIMM)
Keyboard - US English
No Camera, with Microphone
500GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
DVD Recordable
Express Card Slot & 4-in-1 Card Reader
6 Cell Li-Ion TWL 70+
90W AC Adapter - US (2pin)
Intel Centrino Wireless-N 2200 (2x2 BGN)
Mobile Broadband upgradable

But I'm not sure if I need all that power considering I'm a very light gamer and I won't be doing any CAD work.

The X230 is $825 prior to tax:
Intel Core i5-3210M Processor (3M Cache, 2.50GHz)
Genuine Windows 7 Professional (64 bit)
Windows 7 XP Mode - English
12.5" Premium HD (1366x768) LED Backlit Display, Mobile Broadband Ready, 3x3 Antenna
Intel HD 4000 Graphics in Intel Core i5-3210M Processor
4 GB PC3-12800 DDR3 (1 DIMM)
Keyboard - US English
UltraNav without FingerPrint Reader
500GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
9 Cell ThinkPad Battery X44++
65W AC Adapter - US (2pin)
Intel Centrino Wireless-N 2200 (2x2 BGN)
Mobile Broadband upgradable
 
the x230 is supposed to be an improvement on the 220 right? but they took away the nice keyboard for trendy chiclets and still kept that tiny netbook resolution...what gives

smh.
 
I would take the T420 over the X220 for the screen resolution alone. It's that big of a difference.
 
Lol so much FUD here. OSX is based on BSD. It is Unix 03 certified. So by all means you can say "it is Unix" with a pretty GUI on top of it. As for the HDD issue it only happens on the 2011 iMac which isn't even what is discussed here.

Anyway the short answer is that it doesn't really matter what platform it is. OSX/Windows/Linux will all get the job done though Windows will probably mean more time on school servers via SSH. In most big name CS programs the students spend more time in labs than on their own machines doing actual coding.

During college I went from Windows (on a Thinkpad) -> Linux (also on a Thinkpad) -> a MBP. Windows was definitely more annoying from an environment perspective as all the work was assigned with Unix in mind. Linux, while not really Unix had enough in common and typically had all the same tools. The transition to MBP was mostly 1) I like the look of it and 2) I like the keyboard/touchpad. The extra cost wasn't a big deal to me but it may be to you. List out the pluses and minuses of all your choices and decide for yourself which is most worthwhile.
 
lixuelai said:
Lol so much FUD here. OSX is based on BSD. It is Unix 03 certified. So by all means you can say "it is Unix" with a pretty GUI on top of it. As for the HDD issue it only happens on the 2011 iMac which isn't even what is discussed here.

Anyway the short answer is that it doesn't really matter what platform it is. OSX/Windows/Linux will all get the job done though Windows will probably mean more time on school servers via SSH. In most big name CS programs the students spend more time in labs than on their own machines doing actual coding.

During college I went from Windows (on a Thinkpad) -> Linux (also on a Thinkpad) -> a MBP. Windows was definitely more annoying from an environment perspective as all the work was assigned with Unix in mind. Linux, while not really Unix had enough in common and typically had all the same tools. The transition to MBP was mostly 1) I like the look of it and 2) I like the keyboard/touchpad. The extra cost wasn't a big deal to me but it may be to you. List out the pluses and minuses of all your choices and decide for yourself which is most worthwhile.
Click to expand...

I agree with this post most heartedly.

The X230 is a nice laptop, and would suit you well.

The 11" or 13" MBA are to, and would suit you as well.
( I personally would go with the 13", I like the real estate better).

The X230 will be less expensive, but will also weight more. (Not a ton more mind, but in the land of the featherweights, it is 20% heavier).

The MBA's will have a SSD (which is . . . really nice for speed), but has a large limitation on space, which is annoying.

A big point in the MBA's favor is they are the only laptop in the world that can run the three major OS's without any issues with drivers. That saves a bit of headache/setup.

Additionally, the touchpad in OSX is sooo good that it is difficult to go back to anything else. /shrug.


They are both good choices. I would probably pick the 13" MBA, but the 11' and the x230 are solid choices also.
 
Go with the Lenovo/IBM ThinkPad. Your future will be long and prosperous. You can upgrade it at your pleasure and financial availability; pump it up with more RAM, SSDs, better battery, etc.

My ThinkPad T61 has a 500GB Momentus XT hybrid (HDD+SSD in one) and 8GB of DDR2 RAM. 8-cell battery with long battery life, and it's more durable than a Macbook.
 
Go with the thinkpad heck I am almost finished with my CS degree and I am still using my IBM T60. The reality is you will more than likely use a combination of Visual Studio and GCC compilers which points towards the thinkpad.
 
Zumino Zufeilon said:
A big point in the MBA's favor is they are the only laptop in the world that can run the three major OS's without any issues with drivers. That saves a bit of headache/setup.
Click to expand...
Really? I had not heard this. What did they do to improve Windows on the MBA that the MBP didn't have? I had all manner of minor irritations running Windows on my old MBP13. They weren't big deals, but it was irritating as a lot of my software had to be run in Windows. Boot camp, while functional, was very far from ideal.

But that's neither here nor there. All three options the OP is considering are good options. I tossed out the suggestion of a larger/more powerful option, and he considered that too. This is just a hard choice to make -- though I will say that the addition of an SSD to the MBA is a point in its favor, even if I am still a Thinkpad fan.

Let us know what you pick and how you like it OP -- have fun!
 
Thanks for all the replies, I ended up getting the X230 for the combination of the form factor, the fact that I'm accustomed to Windows already, and that I can freely upgrade it on my own, and it seems a large portion of people still think Windows is more suited. Sorry for unintentionally starting a flame war :eek:
 
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I'm Comp Eng and I went with the x201 (was the latest at the time). However, I probably won't be coding as much as you will be. Only thing I don't like about it is the 12" screen. Waaaay too small for me to multi task efficiently.
 
good choice, you may want to look at getting a "slice" battery down the line, will come close to doubling bat. life (if that is important to you). the X230 is the one i probably would have gone with as well.
 
Thinkpads are way tougher than the rest of them junk other companies are selling. Good job, OP!
 
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