SQL Explicit permissions

Jarod888

Jarod888

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 19, 2005
Messages
2,939
First, I must confess that I don't understand SQL or really any programming language. What is the best way to answer the following question?

Is there ever a reason to use explicit permissions in SQL 2005? Why? or Why not?

I would prefer if someone could explain what explicit permission are. That way I can better understand the question. In my googling I have found that SQL has roles. Are these roles a replacement for explicit permissions?

Thanks!!
 
Jarod888 said:
First, I must confess that I don't understand SQL or really any programming language. What is the best way to answer the following question?

Is there ever a reason to use explicit permissions in SQL 2005? Why? or Why not?

I would prefer if someone could explain what explicit permission are. That way I can better understand the question. In my googling I have found that SQL has roles. Are these roles a replacement for explicit permissions?
Click to expand...
These are some "tip of the iceberg" questions. Perhaps some backstory on what lead you to ask these questions would be helpful, as well as the context that you will be applying any answers we would/could provide.
 
It is to answer a question for a class. I just need to understand what the question means. I wont be building an SQL server or setting up a database.
 
Security. With explicit permissions you can allow certain users or roles to have access to make modifications to your tables or schema, such as alter, control, delete, insert, etc. They are useful because they can help prevent users from making unwanted modifications to the database.

This was what I could find with a quick Google search. Read Chapter 3 in this book.
 
Last edited:
If you don't understand SQL or any programming language, what class is this for?

Do you have any understanding of permissions when it comes to computer systems at all?

EDIT: And I *usually* use explicit permissions in enterprise applications that interact with a database.
 
Yes. Because of: (insert random specific use case or security concern)
 
mikeblas said:
You mean, like, homework?
Click to expand...
Not really homework, more of a discussion topic.

Zangmonkey said:
If you don't understand SQL or any programming language, what class is this for?

Do you have any understanding of permissions when it comes to computer systems at all?

EDIT: And I *usually* use explicit permissions in enterprise applications that interact with a database.
Click to expand...

The class is a database / sql class, but we don't have to install or mess with sql. We also do not have a book, we use the testout lab software, which is essentially just a bunch of videos. The professor posts questions and we have to answer them. I just didn't understand if explicit meant something different in sql. I am learning about permissions.
Thanks everyone for the help, your answers are basically what I was thinking the answer would be.
 
Jarod888 said:
Not really homework, more of a discussion topic.



The class is a database / sql class, but we don't have to install or mess with sql. We also do not have a book, we use the testout lab software, which is essentially just a bunch of videos. The professor posts questions and we have to answer them. I just didn't understand if explicit meant something different in sql. I am learning about permissions.
Thanks everyone for the help, your answers are basically what I was thinking the answer would be.
Click to expand...

my approach with enterprise databases is that people should have only the access they need to complete specific tasks.

For example, applications interact using non-dynamic SQL stored procedures. In that way, what a user can and cannot do in a database is very prescribed by the DB Admin.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms191436(v=sql.105).aspx
 
Jarod888 said:
Not really homework, more of a discussion topic.



The class is a database / sql class, but we don't have to install or mess with sql. We also do not have a book, we use the testout lab software, which is essentially just a bunch of videos. The professor posts questions and we have to answer them. I just didn't understand if explicit meant something different in sql. I am learning about permissions.
Thanks everyone for the help, your answers are basically what I was thinking the answer would be.
Click to expand...

What do you call a database/SQL class where you don't mess with SQL?

A waste of time.
 
Tawnos said:
What do you call a database/SQL class where you don't mess with SQL?

A waste of time.
Click to expand...

Yes and no. If you are really into SQL and databases then yes, it is a waste of time. For me it is just a degree requirement so no, it isn't a waste of time because I have to take it. If I had my choice I would take something else, but it is the last required class for my degree. I have no interest in DB management.
One of the reasons I think that they make you take the class is just so that you are at least somewhat familiar with what a database is. As far as I am concerned it is just a class I have to get through.
 
Jarod888 said:
The class is a database / sql class, but we don't have to install or mess with sql. We also do not have a book, we use the testout lab software, which is essentially just a bunch of videos.
Click to expand...
You're wasting your time. Are you wasting your money, too?
Jarod888 said:
Yes and no. If you are really into SQL and databases then yes, it is a waste of time. For me it is just a degree requirement so no, it isn't a waste of time because I have to take it. If I had my choice I would take something else, but it is the last required class for my degree. I have no interest in DB management.
Click to expand...
Yes, and only yes. And also yes. You don't want to take it, you're not learning anything from it, you won't be more valuable when you get into the workforce, and you're investing time in this "class". It's a complete waste.


Jarod888 said:
One of the reasons I think that they make you take the class is just so that you are at least somewhat familiar with what a database is. As far as I am concerned it is just a class I have to get through.
Click to expand...
You could get that in ten minutes.
 
Wiseguy2001 said:
What degree are you doing?

What do you want to get out of it?
Click to expand...


My degree will be a Bachelor of Science in Information Technology.

I want a degree out of it. I am not super interested in being a technical expert in any one area. I would rather be in management and let the really technical people be technical. I've done help desk and that isn't too bad, but I don't want to do it forever. I am actually considering getting my Masters in Teaching and teaching in a middle school, (6th, 7th, and 8th graders). I am also considering going to the police academy. I finished two degrees in four years while working full time. I got an Associates in Art and in about 20 days or so I will have my Bachelors. I am sort of done with school for a bit.

mikeblas said:
You're wasting your time. Are you wasting your money, too?Yes, and only yes. And also yes. You don't want to take it, you're not learning anything from it, you won't be more valuable when you get into the workforce, and you're investing time in this "class". It's a complete waste.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. I am "wasting" $888 for a class which is a degree requirement. That just isn't a big deal to me, it simply is part of playing the game to get the piece of paper. The degree is worth a taking a few classes which I have no interest in. I couldn't stand my Java programming class either, but I made it through it and got an A. I have no desire to understand the complexities of SQL Databases. I understand that they are useful and they have there place, but I don't want anything to do with them. I'll leave them to people who understand programming and all that technical stuff. I am just not that into understanding the "behind the scenes working' of the Internet, or programs. I'll give you another example. I took an income tax accounting class when I was getting my associates. It did not even count for credit for my degree, yet it was one of my all time favorite classes. I really enjoyed it.



mikeblas said:
You could get that in ten minutes.
Click to expand...

Yes I could get the technical definition of a database in 10 minutes. I think that the point of the class is to give an overview so that non technical IT managers or other IT workers have the base understanding of a database and can understand what is going on while the DB admin is doing what ever they do and implementing other projects.
 
Last edited:
Jarod888 said:
My degree will be a Bachelor of Science in Information Technology.

I want a degree out of it. I am not super interested in being a technical expert in any one area. I would rather be in management and let the really technical people be technical.
Click to expand...


Some day, when you're an IT manager and making fat stacks, do you think that a general understanding of "explicit permissions" will be useful?

What will you do when "your" DBA/programmer/Exchange Admin/SAN Engineer is telling you that he/she intends to use a shared user account? And this account will have sysadmin/domain admin/root privileges. And all applications in your organization will use this account for db/fileserver/storage access. Is this a good idea? A bad idea? Why? If you don't know why, how much weight will your decision carry?

You just said that you will let the "technical staff" make the technical decisions, but as a manager, shouldn't you manage? If not, what will you do? Sign time sheets?


I've done help desk and that isn't too bad, but I don't want to do it forever.
Click to expand...

Cool. Help desk jobs are great - you can learn valuable skills in PC troubleshooting and time management. There are often opportunities to improve the position/process between tickets. These positions can expose you to other ares of business/IT that you might be interested in pursuing.


I am actually considering getting my Masters in Teaching and teaching in a middle school, (6th, 7th, and 8th graders).
Click to expand...

Awesome. The world needs more passionate teachers.


I am also considering going to the police academy.
Click to expand...

Wait.. what? You're 3 weeks away from finishing a B.S. in IT, and you're considering police academy? Why? I thought you were going for your M.S. so you could teach middle school. Are you trolling?


I finished two degrees in four years while working full time. I got an Associates in Art and in about 20 days or so I will have my Bachelors. I am sort of done with school for a bit.
Click to expand...

How will you get your M.S. or go to police academy if you're done with school? :confused:
 
Jarod888 said:
I don't agree. I am "wasting" $888 for a class which is a degree requirement. That just isn't a big deal to me, it simply is part of playing the game to get the piece of paper. The degree is worth a taking a few classes which I have no interest in.
Click to expand...
You're not engaged in the class so you're not motivated to retain anything valuable after you get the minimum mark to claim credit towards your degree. The instruction, support structure, course materials, and learning environment are so bad that you're relying on an arbitrary forum on the interwebs to get clarification for in-course topics.

You might end up being a cop -- even if you end up in a larger department's IT department and still carry a badge, the time and money you've spent on this class get you nothing. You might end up being a middle school teacher -- what you've covered in this course gets you nothing.

Where is it that you're going to school?

Jarod888 said:
I think that the point of the class is to give an overview so that non technical IT managers or other IT workers have the base understanding of a database and can understand what is going on while the DB admin is doing what ever they do and implementing other projects.
Click to expand...
I doubt you've gotten that much benefit from this course. While those "technical people" are getting the real work done, how will you add value?

I think the point of the class was for the school to collect $888 from each student in this degree program.
 
Just a few words of advice. A BS in IT is not going to land you a management position. A BS in IT might get your foot in the door at a variety of places but without experience you're going to have a tough time finding something above junior admin/help desk/service tech/entry level programming types of jobs. Knowing people that can help you get jobs might change that but I've found two types of people in IT so far. Those really into figuring out problems and those there for the pay check. You've already said you're not really into the figuring out problems part so that lumps you into the pay check piece. All the people I know that are in it for the pay check are rarely happy with their jobs because there's no passion. And the people just there for the pay check hold back those that are passionate about their job. I'm not telling you what to do but if you are not into figuring out why/how something works IT is a poor choice for you.

If tax accounting is what floated your boat maybe something in the financial industry is more up your alley. I know two people that started as tellers at a bank and the bank payed for an accounting degree so they could move up. It takes a commitment but anything worthwhile usually does. Good luck as a new graduate, it's definitely a tough economy out there.
 
calebb said:
Some day, when you're an IT manager and making fat stacks, do you think that a general understanding of "explicit permissions" will be useful?

What will you do when "your" DBA/programmer/Exchange Admin/SAN Engineer is telling you that he/she intends to use a shared user account? And this account will have sysadmin/domain admin/root privileges. And all applications in your organization will use this account for db/fileserver/storage access. Is this a good idea? A bad idea? Why? If you don't know why, how much weight will your decision carry?

You just said that you will let the "technical staff" make the technical decisions, but as a manager, shouldn't you manage? If not, what will you do? Sign time sheets?
Click to expand...

I understand that point. As to your question, it's a bad idea. My point about not understanding the technical aspects of SQL only means that I do not have the desire to understand every little nuance about SQL. I also have no desire to understand every nuance about Java, or C++, or other programming languages. There is more to being a manager than being the most technical person in the department. Managers often have to have more customer service skills than anything. Being able to present ideas to upper management and build a strong team around them is also more important than knowing every possible thing about some technical area. I personally hate having a manager who questions everything I do. The best managers are those who build strong teams and don't micromanage them. Being able to see things from a high level is just as important as being able to scroll through lines of code to find a single problem which is throwing an error. Different strokes for different folks.

Please don't take this personally, as it is not an attack directed to you or any other responder to this thread, rather it is just my general opinion.

IT folks who are very good at any one thing, networking, SQL, programming, etc have a serious chip on their shoulders. They believe that because they know every last nuance about their specialty, everyone else should also. They also think that everyone else should have the same passion about it that they do. It almost seems like they are seeking validation of their knowledge. I am not sure if it is that they have some sort of deep inner drive to prove that they know more than the next guy or if it actually a deep fear, that they are worthless if people are not as passionate about x,y, or z as they are. It seems to me that they carry this issue of legitimacy around with them and simply can't understand why others are not as interested as they are. It is almost as if they feel that one day they will be forgotten about, unless they can prove that they know more about x, y, or z and through their dissemination of said knowledge will gain praise or admiration.

Bill: "You know Jim over there knows everything about x."
Suzy: "Really? Wow! I wish I could be that cool....yeah, just what I want to be, some computer nerd who spends all day with his "lover", I mean, "database". What ever. Lets go grab dinner and see a movie."

< Jim > Overhearing the above conversation, thinking to himself..."Let them have their dinner, and movies, I have my databases, and they can never take them away!

It just frustrates me that a lot, not all, super technical folks think that because they know something very well, so should you and if you don't you are less of a person. I have ZERO desire to be great or exceptional at any one thing, I would rather just be fairly good at a lot of things. I know my limits, and programming, music, and foreign languages are not things I am ever going to be "good" at. There is no interest in them for me. I would rather spend my time doing things I enjoy, like woodworking, photography, painting, etc. I will never be the next Leo DaVinch, Ansel Adams, or Norm Abrams, and I am OK with that.

I just do not have the desire to study something and become excellent at it. I would rather just move on and experience something new.


calebb said:
Cool. Help desk jobs are great - you can learn valuable skills in PC troubleshooting and time management. There are often opportunities to improve the position/process between tickets. These positions can expose you to other ares of business/IT that you might be interested in pursuing.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I've figured out what I like and what I don't like about the IT world. If anything being a Technical Analyst for a Large Multinational Corporation has helped me realize that being a super DBA or NA is not what I want.




calebb said:
Awesome. The world needs more passionate teachers.
Click to expand...
Teaching is hard, and being passionate about it for an extended period of time is very difficult. When I think of role models in my life, quite a few at the top of the list are teachers. I think that would be awesome.




calebb said:
Wait.. what? You're 3 weeks away from finishing a B.S. in IT, and you're considering police academy? Why? I thought you were going for your M.S. so you could teach middle school. Are you trolling?
Click to expand...

I will finish my degree. The police academy thing is more of a nagging interest thing for me. The program I am considering is through a Community College. Once you graduate you are POST certified, meaning you can enter into a full on Police Academy with a department. It would mean going to school for another 11 months though which is why I am not sure I am all that interested in it. Right now it is more of a, "That would be a cool learning opportunity, but 11 more months of school...man I need a break."




calebb said:
How will you get your M.S. or go to police academy if you're done with school? :confused:
Click to expand...

I am not done with school. I just want a break. I have been going to school since September of 2008, full time all year long. I want a summer where I can come home from work and grill, enjoying a cold beer or in my case, a tall glass of ice water, and not have to worry about doing homework.

I think I am going to be a life long student. I just need a break now and again. I am really considering the starting my Masters for teaching in September. I may also do the community college policy academy thing. I don't actually have a firm plan yet.

renixinq said:
Just a few words of advice. A BS in IT is not going to land you a management position. A BS in IT might get your foot in the door at a variety of places but without experience you're going to have a tough time finding something above junior admin/help desk/service tech/entry level programming types of jobs. Knowing people that can help you get jobs might change that but I've found two types of people in IT so far. Those really into figuring out problems and those there for the pay check. You've already said you're not really into the figuring out problems part so that lumps you into the pay check piece. All the people I know that are in it for the pay check are rarely happy with their jobs because there's no passion. And the people just there for the pay check hold back those that are passionate about their job. I'm not telling you what to do but if you are not into figuring out why/how something works IT is a poor choice for you.

If tax accounting is what floated your boat maybe something in the financial industry is more up your alley. I know two people that started as tellers at a bank and the bank payed for an accounting degree so they could move up. It takes a commitment but anything worthwhile usually does. Good luck as a new graduate, it's definitely a tough economy out there.
Click to expand...

I know that I will not end up in Management with just a BS in IT. I also have 4 years of experience at a Multinational Pharmaceutical Company as a Technical Support Analyst. Even with that combination, I realize that I am not likely to find a management position. I don't necessarily mind solving problems, I just don't want to be a DBA or NA. I simply do not have any interest in those jobs. Like I said, I like problem solving, Hell about a month ago I helped a friend build a pirate ship out of old fence parts and pallets for a 2nd grade production of "How I became a Pirate" The ship was 35 ft long and 15 feet wide. We used two telephone, or utility poles for the mast. There was a lot of problem solving and just figuring stuff out for that.

As far as accounting, that is what my degree path started out in. Accounting is just very boring, I just really liked the tax accounting class, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for the word of encouragement.

mikeblas said:
You're not engaged in the class so you're not motivated to retain anything valuable after you get the minimum mark to claim credit towards your degree. The instruction, support structure, course materials, and learning environment are so bad that you're relying on an arbitrary forum on the interwebs to get clarification for in-course topics.
Click to expand...

I agree to a point, but I usually turn to the Internet for answers, and there are a lot of smart people here at [H], so naturally it was one of the first places I turned after my googling failed. I am not striving for the minimum mark to get credit for the class. My GPA is very important to me. So far I have a 3.9 GPA. In my BS I have all A's and a few A-'s which would normally equate to 4.0, except that A-'s are not worth 4 points. I should graduate with about a 3.93-3.96. I graduated from Community College Magna Cum Laude. I don't remember my GPA but is was between 3.75 and 3.99.


mikeblas said:
You might end up being a cop -- even if you end up in a larger department's IT department and still carry a badge, the time and money you've spent on this class get you nothing. You might end up being a middle school teacher -- what you've covered in this course gets you nothing.
Click to expand...

I think that would be cool. The time and money I spent on this class got me the degree. Nothing more, nothing less. I am sure that there were bs classes you took in college that do not serve a purpose for you now, they were just part of the "game".


mikeblas said:
Where is it that you're going to school?
Click to expand...

Online program through Colorado State University.


mikeblas said:
I doubt you've gotten that much benefit from this course. While those "technical people" are getting the real work done, how will you add value?

I think the point of the class was for the school to collect $888 from each student in this degree program.
Click to expand...

Yeap. That is part of the game. You just have to be willing to play. Colleges in general make you take bs classes to fulfill the degree requirement. They are a business. Part of being a business is getting people to pay for your service. This service is the all important piece of paper you can hang on the wall to prove that you are "teachable". To a degree it sucks, but it is what it is. If you are not willing to pay to play, then don't. By all means, go get certifications and become super proficient at some technology. I am sure you will make a lot of money, and I hope you do. I am just choosing a different path. I want a degree. I decided to get one in IT because it is the field I am in. If I were to go back and do it again, I would probably get one in teaching or possibly engineering. To me it wasn't as much about what the degree was in, it was more about just getting one.





One thing I would have to say about this discussion, is that it has been very interesting. I have an opinion about things, and others here clearly have a differing one. What I find amazing is the lack of personal attacks in this debate. I think it shows that even though people can have and do have different priorities and goals, they can at the very least present their side of the argument in an adult and professional manner. Reading though the posts has made me realize that there definitely is value in understanding complex IT related systems. It has also made me realize that in general, passion is key.

A little self reflection... I lack driving passion. I have yet to find any one thing which is my "reason to get up daily" but that it OK. It is important to seek out new opportunities and try things, as you never know how or when you will find passion.
 
Last edited:
Jarod888 said:
Not really homework, more of a discussion topic.



The class is a database / sql class, but we don't have to install or mess with sql. We also do not have a book, we use the testout lab software, which is essentially just a bunch of videos. The professor posts questions and we have to answer them. I just didn't understand if explicit meant something different in sql. I am learning about permissions.
Thanks everyone for the help, your answers are basically what I was thinking the answer would be.
Click to expand...

Jarod888 said:
Online program through Colorado State University.
Click to expand...

If this is how you're learning about Databases from Colorado State, your IT degree is useless. What kind of university would make students watch videos for a database class, with little to no labs? I would be embarrassed to have that school as my alma mater based on your description of the course. When I first read your description of the course, I thought you were going to University of Phoenix.

I had to take a database course as part of my master's degree. The course is double listed as both undergrad and grad. We did design and sql labs. I had to know how to design a database both in Visio (Google it) and how to create/maintain a db in Oracle.

I would love to know how you will get into management without having some experience working in an IT department. No company is going to say 'Oh look at Jarod! He got a 3.9 from Colorado State University, let's make him an offer to be a manager!!' Most people have to work for a while doing "grunt work" as you would say. You sound like the business school kids I went to undergrad with.

You will be miserable working in IT. Go back to school to do something else, a police man or priest or teacher.

This thread is hilarious.
 
Jarod888 said:
One thing I would have to say about this discussion, is that it has been very interesting. I have an opinion about things, and others here clearly have a differing one. What I find amazing is the lack of personal attacks in this debate. I think it shows that even though people can have and do have different priorities and goals, they can at the very least present their side of the argument in an adult and professional manner. Reading though the posts has made me realize that there definitely is value in understanding complex IT related systems. It has also made me realize that in general, passion is key.

A little self reflection... I lack driving passion. I have yet to find any one thing which is my "reason to get up daily" but that it OK. It is important to seek out new opportunities and try things, as you never know how or when you will find passion.
Click to expand...

If you don't have a passion for IT why are you taking classes in it and wasting time?
 
Jarod888 said:
I have ZERO desire to be great or exceptional at any one thing, I would rather just be fairly good at a lot of things. [...]

I think I am going to be a life long student. [...]

A little self reflection... I lack driving passion.
Click to expand...
I don't think I can help you.
 
Wow people, way to be supporting. It's not like he's asking for hand-outs from you guys and you crap all over him? This is what is wrong with this forum is all the combative people that refuse to accept that someone differs from their opinion/experience. Why not offer advice after reading over his posts (such as him already having some professional tech experience) to try and inform him instead of telling him you can't help him because he doesn't have the same drive as you.
 
renixinq said:
Wow people, way to be supporting. It's not like he's asking for hand-outs from you guys and you crap all over him? This is what is wrong with this forum is all the combative people that refuse to accept that someone differs from their opinion/experience.
Click to expand...
I do agree with you, there is a negative culture in this programming forum to belittle people. It's rare that a good discussion can take place without threadcrapping or turning into a pissing contest. Which is a shame as there are many here, who are very interested in programming topics.

I guess the OP was treated harshly, but this may be tough love. What he is trying to do is akin to becoming a football (soccer) coach without having really played or much interest in the sport. But you never know, he may have better people skills than he conveyed here.
 
Not piling in on the hate here, but I do want to offer the OP some advice; you mention SQL in the same breath as programming languages. This is a bad frame of mind to be in; SQL is everywhere in IT, whereas programming is not. Everyone has to touch SQL, from helpdesk to programmers to network admins to management. It would behoove you to start building your SQL knowledge set now for when you are inevitably exposed to it in the workplace.

Programming languages..not so much. Outside of scripting, I know admins who have never touched a compiled language.
 
contitego said:
If this is how you're learning about Databases from Colorado State, your IT degree is useless. What kind of university would make students watch videos for a database class, with little to no labs? I would be embarrassed to have that school as my alma mater based on your description of the course. When I first read your description of the course, I thought you were going to University of Phoenix.
Click to expand...

I am not getting a degree in SQL or database management. My degree is Information Technology. To me that is a broad overview of IT in general, nothing too specific. I think it is a good generalized degree.

contitego said:
I had to take a database course as part of my master's degree. The course is double listed as both undergrad and grad. We did design and sql labs. I had to know how to design a database both in Visio (Google it) and how to create/maintain a db in Oracle.
Click to expand...

That's awesome for you. I simply do not want that. I have NO desire to ever design a database or maintain one. It is great that you continued your education and received a specialized, i.e. Masters degree. A Bachelors degree is supposed to be general education. You get a BS or BA degree in order to show that you can be educated. You then move on to something specialized in the form of a Masters. If that isn't your cup of tea, then you don't have to get a specialization. There are plenty of jobs for which the requirement is simply a Bachelors degree.

contitego said:
I would love to know how you will get into management without having some experience working in an IT department. No company is going to say 'Oh look at Jarod! He got a 3.9 from Colorado State University, let's make him an offer to be a manager!!' Most people have to work for a while doing "grunt work" as you would say. You sound like the business school kids I went to undergrad with.
Click to expand...

I think that you should re-read my replies. I have worked in IT for almost four years. Previous to that I was a SR Chemical Operator for the same company. I applied for and was promoted into the IT position because of my reputation as a Chemical Operator and willingness to work hard, learn new things, and volunteer for assignments outside of my job description.
I was very green in IT when I accepted the job. For the first few months, I had very few admin rights, and I spent most of my time Ghosting machines, setting up CISCO 7940, and 7960 phones, working on post production of my companies Town Hall videos, collecting printer page counts, etc. I spent a lot of time doing grunt work. One of the people who I worked with in the department tried to "poison" my reputation by trying to convince everyone that I didn't know anything. Fortunately my manager and the NA realized that even though I was green, I was willing to learn. They also realized that I wasn't afraid to ask questions. I gained a lot of respect because rather than trying to go out and fix an issue I didn't understand, I would research solutions and discuss the best approach. I also gained a lot of respect from the generalized population of workers because I was very customer service oriented. The "poisoner" had a reputation of seeing a problem or ticket on the help desk, jumping out of his chair, running to where ever it was, kicking the person out of their chair, and pounding away at the keyboard. Sometimes he fixed problems, sometimes he made them much worse. He also loved reimaging machines. It was his second or third line fix for everything.

So after 3 or 4 months the NA made me a Server Admin and I handled alot of the permission changes and directory moves for users. I also managed the entire Nextel account, over 300 phones, maintained printers, did SAP requisitions, and many other things along with my help desk duties.


contitego said:
You will be miserable working in IT. Go back to school to do something else, a police man or priest or teacher.
Click to expand...
I wasn't miserable working in IT. The "poisoner" was and is my biggest issue.



contitego said:
This thread is hilarious.
Click to expand...
I guess... I came here asking for some simple explanations of some things which I did not fully understand. I have repeatedly had to defend myself because I don't want to be an SQL guru, and because I don't have unwavering passion for IT. If that is your idea of humor, to belittle someone because they are willing to stick their hand up and ask a question; OK, good for you, I guess. What are you trying to prove?


renixinq said:
Wow people, way to be supporting. It's not like he's asking for hand-outs from you guys and you crap all over him? This is what is wrong with this forum is all the combative people that refuse to accept that someone differs from their opinion/experience. Why not offer advice after reading over his posts (such as him already having some professional tech experience) to try and inform him instead of telling him you can't help him because he doesn't have the same drive as you.
Click to expand...

Thank you. My point exactly. All I wanted with this thread originally was a simple answer to a question which I did not understand. It is a little amusing to me that it turned into a philosophical debate about the merits of me as a person because I do not have undieing passion to become an SQL guru.

Wiseguy2001 said:
I do agree with you, there is a negative culture in this programming forum to belittle people. It's rare that a good discussion can take place without threadcrapping or turning into a pissing contest. Which is a shame as there are many here, who are very interested in programming topics.

I guess the OP was treated harshly, but this may be tough love. What he is trying to do is akin to becoming a football (soccer) coach without having really played or much interest in the sport. But you never know, he may have better people skills than he conveyed here.
Click to expand...

I think my people skills are OK. There is always room for improvement. I have a pretty good reputation as a level headed, customer service oriented person. I am also not afraid to ask a question if I don't know something. The thing is, [H] was not the first place I turned to. I did a lot of googling, but I couldn't seem to string together the right terms in order to find a definitive answer to my original question. I found a lot of information on role based security, and other items, but nothing super specific. I turned to [H] because the usebase is huge. It is a tech oriented forum, with plenty of people who have far more experience in IT than I do. I simply assumed, (my bad), that some database guru, or SQL expert would be able to point me in the right direction. One of the very early posts in this thread, advised me to read chapter three in "Cheating SQL Security" I did that, and was able to string together a logical, (to me), answer to my question. I went on to read as much of that chapter as I could, (google book preview limits) and was able to write my critical thinking paper off of what I read, and some more directed research.

XOR != OR said:
Not piling in on the hate here, but I do want to offer the OP some advice; you mention SQL in the same breath as programming languages. This is a bad frame of mind to be in; SQL is everywhere in IT, whereas programming is not. Everyone has to touch SQL, from helpdesk to programmers to network admins to management. It would behoove you to start building your SQL knowledge set now for when you are inevitably exposed to it in the workplace.

Programming languages..not so much. Outside of scripting, I know admins who have never touched a compiled language.
Click to expand...

That is a valuable insight. Thank you for that. I assumed, incorrectly, that SQL was basically a programming language. I knew that it is used in a lot of things. I disagree with you a bit. When ever we have an SQL ticket hit the service desk, the DB admin deals with them. We just pass on the information. I realize that this may not be the case everywhere, but it has been in my experience. Our managers reasoning is that he does not want anyone messing with databases who does not have any understanding of their inner workings. We have a DB guy for that, and that is his job. I will take your advise under advisement though, as I see now that SQL / Database stuff is a good skill to have, even if it is just a basic skill.
 
Last edited:
renixinq said:
Wow people, way to be supporting. It's not like he's asking for hand-outs from you guys and you crap all over him? This is what is wrong with this forum is all the combative people that refuse to accept that someone differs from their opinion/experience. Why not offer advice after reading over his posts (such as him already having some professional tech experience) to try and inform him instead of telling him you can't help him because he doesn't have the same drive as you.
Click to expand...

He was asking for handouts. He was asking for the answer to his homework so that he wouldn't have to think through a class which he's wasting his time in. Most of us don't mind helping somebody who wants to learn about a topic, or has shortcomings, or needs a bit of focus guidance. A person who comes here saying "hey, I don't know any of this stuff, I don't want to know any of this stuff, but it's assigned to me, what is the answer to it" will get the thread you see here.

This isn't a matter of drive, it's more than that.
 
Jarod888 said:
That is a valuable insight. Thank you for that. I assumed, incorrectly, that SQL was basically a programming language. I knew that it is used in a lot of things. I disagree with you a bit. When ever we have an SQL ticket hit the service desk, the DB admin deals with them. We just pass on the information. I realize that this may not be the case everywhere, but it has been in my experience. Our managers reasoning is that he does not want anyone messing with databases who does not have any understanding of their inner workings. We have a DB guy for that, and that is his job. I will take your advise under advisement though, as I see now that SQL / Database stuff is a good skill to have, even if it is just a basic skill.
Click to expand...
It has been my experience that the DBA is often the one person I least want touching a database. In any case, it pays to not be so knowledge dependent on a small group of people ( or person ).
 
Tawnos said:
He was asking for handouts. He was asking for the answer to his homework so that he wouldn't have to think through a class which he's wasting his time in. Most of us don't mind helping somebody who wants to learn about a topic, or has shortcomings, or needs a bit of focus guidance. A person who comes here saying "hey, I don't know any of this stuff, I don't want to know any of this stuff, but it's assigned to me, what is the answer to it" will get the thread you see here.

This isn't a matter of drive, it's more than that.
Click to expand...

I disagree. After about the 4th post it turned into a judgement of the OP type of thread. Yes he was asking in reference for a course after he had done some searching (listed in the OP) and couldn't find the answer in which he was seeking. It got answered a long time ago (before I had even read it) but everyone wanted to pile on (me included though I "tried" to not bash the OP but rather give advice based on my experience) with their thoughts which were mostly negative towards the OP and did little to guide or help. Even your comment about what a waste the course was did nothing to help the OP but rather assert your opinion about something you have very little knowledge on (his situation, the curriculum he is involved in etc.). I'm just sick of this forum's attitude and the overall sense of negativity I get when reading threads. The networking and virtualization forum is basically the only forums I feel have a good group of people that are truly interested in helping people.

/rant
 
Tawnos said:
He was asking for handouts. He was asking for the answer to his homework so that he wouldn't have to think through a class which he's wasting his time in. Most of us don't mind helping somebody who wants to learn about a topic, or has shortcomings, or needs a bit of focus guidance. A person who comes here saying "hey, I don't know any of this stuff, I don't want to know any of this stuff, but it's assigned to me, what is the answer to it" will get the thread you see here.

This isn't a matter of drive, it's more than that.
Click to expand...


Please see post number three, (by me), in which I indicated that I wanted to understand where to find the information I was seeking. I was not looking for a "handout", rather what I was looking for was an explanation and directions to find the answer on my own.

My original question was answered in post number 4. aVaLaNcHe answered the question, but he also linked to a chapter in a book about SQL security. I read all of the chapter I could via Google book preview and used the information it provided, not only to help me formulate an answer to the first question, but to write a 5 page critical thinking paper on SQL security. Chapter 3 was very useful, but I still needed more information. Reading it helped me to find other search terms which I used to find additional information for my paper. SO in my opinion I did not receive a handout, more of a roadmap for me to follow, which allowed me to conduct my own research and gain a better, but still limited understanding of SQL security.

I have not made any bones about not wanting to be an expert, i.e. to have explicit knowledge of a subject. I clearly stated that I didn't want to understand it, meaning (to me), I don't want or need explicit knowledge of it [SQL], rather what I wanted was a path to find enough information so that I could answer the question.

I will admit that my original post may have been poorly worded. I just didn't want a long drawn out explanation of every nuance of SQL. All I was really after was the "SQL for Dummy's" non technical answer or a path to find it [SQL security], explained in a simple manner. In the very first post, my OP, I even stated that I wanted an explanation of explicit permissions so that I could better understand how to answer the question.
 
Last edited:
renixinq said:
I disagree.
Click to expand...
Too bad. Were you redirected here when you mistyped the URL for the Everyone Gets a Trophy forum?

XOR != OR said:
Outside of scripting, I know admins who have never touched a compiled language.
Click to expand...
That's a curious exclusion. Scripting is programming, and compiled or not, programming is a tool that can move mountains. I think programming skills is particularly important for IT, as automating tedious tasks is a way to differentiate one's self. Of course, a professional student has little interest in making himself different from any other professional student in any meaningful way.

Jarod888 said:
In the very first post, my OP, I even stated that I wanted an explanation of explicit permissions so that I could better understand how to answer the question.
Click to expand...
That post was very challenging. How do you explain SQL permissions to someone who doesn't understand SQL? How does someone who doesn't understand SQL come up with a five-page paper on SQL? It would be a curious read.
 
I disagree that this thread was started as someone wanting their home work done for them and I'm now looking for a trophy? Stop trying to be internet tough guy and maybe think about contributing and helping others.

Can we at least agree to close this thread so we can all stop being retards and arguing on the internet?
 
mikeblas said:
That post was very challenging. How do you explain SQL permissions to someone who doesn't understand SQL? How does someone who doesn't understand SQL come up with a five-page paper on SQL? It would be a curious read.
Click to expand...
Closest I can think of in "party" speak:
You and your bros are plannin' to hit the 18+ club. Unbeknownst to you, your bro was 86d from the club just a week before. While you have an invite, he's not supposed to go in. Arriving at the door, the bouncer looks at his list and your IDs. He lets you through since you are GRANTed that permission, and writes an X on your bro's hand (for the sake of the next step, he is 19). As your 86d friend attempts to stroll in, the bouncer steps in front and says "move along sir" - DENY. While you and one of your bros have explicit permission to come in, your banned bro does not. Arriving at the bar, the bartender asks to see your hands. Seeing that you don't have an X on your hand, the bartender asks you what you want to drink first. You order grey goose and red bull, and are GRANTed one. When your friend says "the same" the bartender says "you're not 21" DENY. While this confuses your European friend (he has that permission at his local club, "DB"), he orders a coke. Thus, you have the inherited permission of being in the club (parent permission to access table) an the explicit permission to order alcoholic beverages (call table update? stored procedure? *shrug*). Later, both of you try to go back into the VIP area, but you're denied, as you're not in the VIP group.

I hate the word bro, and it made the above painful.
 
mikeblas said:
That's a curious exclusion. Scripting is programming, and compiled or not, programming is a tool that can move mountains. I think programming skills is particularly important for IT, as automating tedious tasks is a way to differentiate one's self.
Click to expand...
Ya, I don't think I explained myself well.

Scripting *is* programming of course, but it's a different style. Right or wrong, the scripts I've come across in my work that were written by admins tended not to be "properly written programs", but a rather linear set of instructions for the parser. Object oriented? Negative. Discrete reusable bits? Sometimes.

Even in my own work this is evident. Oh, I try to follow good programming practices ( despite never learning what that actually means ), but sometimes..you need to get it done yesterday and the linear method is fast and cheap up front, ya know?

Whereas "official" programming has far more structure and thought behind it ( one would hope at least ).

That said, I absolutely agree with you about programming skills being essential for IT admins. But it's distressing how often I come off looking like superman because I'm the only one that knows how to do it. The reality is that it's a small percentage of admins that can and will code/script to make things easier on themselves and others.
 
XOR != OR said:
Ya, I don't think I explained myself well.

Scripting *is* programming of course, but it's a different style. Right or wrong, the scripts I've come across in my work that were written by admins tended not to be "properly written programs", but a rather linear set of instructions for the parser. Object oriented? Negative. Discrete reusable bits? Sometimes.
Click to expand...

Procedural programming or Imperative programming?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top