Dota 2 - Free To Play

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refraxion

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The sequel to Defense of the Ancients (DOTA) will be free-to-play "with a twist", according to the co-founder of Valve, Gabe Newell.

Speaking on a yet to be released podcast shared by the producers early with Polygon, Newell told Seven Day Cooldown that the PC and Mac-compatible real-time strategy game will use a free-to-play funding model, but one that hasn't been used in any other game before.

"It's going to be free-to-play -- it'll have some twists, but that's the easiest way for people to think about it," Newell said.

When prodded over what kind of twists players can expect, Newell said:

"The issue that we're struggling with quite a bit is something I've kind of talked about before, which is how do you properly value people's contributions to a community?

"We're trying to figure out ways so that people who are more valuable to everybody else [are] recognized and accommodated. We all know people where if they're playing we want to play, and there are other people where if they're playing we would [rather] be on the other side of the planet.

"It's just a question of coming up with mechanisms that recognize and reward people who are doing things that are valuable to other groups of people."

Newell provided examples of behavior that would be rewarded, such as players who are useful guides or those who volunteer their time to train others. He said he could not point to an existing free-to-play model that works like the model that Valve has in mind for DOTA 2. He did not specify how valued players would be identified or rewarded.

Newell added that he wants to see this kind of reward system expand into other games.

""In a sense, think of individual games as instance dungeons of a larger experience, if that makes sense as a concept.""

"When you start thinking about the different games that people play and you try to think about how people can create value or a service in one game and benefit somebody in a different game, you can start to see how the different games sort knit together," Newell said.

"[You can see] how somebody who really likes Team Fortress 2 (TF2) can still be creating value for somebody who is playing DOTA 2 or Skyrim, or if somebody is a creator in one space how it can translate into another.

"In a sense, think of individual games as instance dungeons of a larger experience, if that makes sense as a concept."

When asked if this move towards connecting people in games means that Steam is in the process of morphing into a kind of social network, Newell said that Valve is not looking to turn Steam into a social network, at least not in the traditional sense of the word.

"Most of the time when people try to ask us questions like that, they usually have really specific things in mind that don't map exactly to what we have in mind," he said.

""It really is more a legacy of John Carmack's way of thinking about things than it is social networking.""

"So when somebody from the general business press says a social network, they generally mean are you going to have a website that looks like Facebook.

"If I had to talk about a model, it would be more about how gamers can benefit from a collective action of all the other gamers and there are a bunch of different ways that can occur, whether from things that look like traditional social networking notifications to higher-value activities. As far as I know, Facebook doesn't have the ability for people to fundamentally modify or edit the underlying Facebook experience."

Newell described his vision of a gaming social network as allowing Valve to make people as valuable as possible.

"It really is more a legacy of John Carmack's way of thinking about things than it is social networking," he said.

"It's just that now we have the horsepower and the experience in the gaming community to try and figure out how all these experiences get knit together in a way that's valuable."

The full podcast from Seven Day Cooldown will be released later today. Thank you Jack Inacker.
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Source: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/4/20/2961883/dota-2-will-be-free-to-play-with-a-twist

Interesting, I thought it could have been F2P, but was steering towards the buy to play concept.
 
It needs to be F2P to bring over the hoards of LoL players. With the current spectator system and upcoming LAN support it's going to take the competitive scene by storm.

Dota 2 is the best game I've played in a long time. Is this the first F2P game with LAN support?
 
How does the game run on very low end systems? LoL was borderline acceptable at the lowest settings on my laptop
 
I'm a little disappointed in this, actually.

I really hope DotA 2 doesn't do what LoL does with having certain heroes need to be unlocked, or need to be purchased. Or do what TF2 does and have items that you need to complete achievements to unlock, or need to be purchased to be unlocked.

I have been an avid DotA player since DotA Allstars 5, and helped in the public beta for DotA Allstars 6.00 and for DotA 2. I know all of the heroes and items. I don't want to get a free game that doesn't let me use all of the heroes and items right off the bat, and requires me to buy $50 worth of DLC packages or play 250 hours to get to that point. I don't need the game to hold my hand and start me off with easy heroes and unlock more difficult ones for me as I get more - I've played well over a thousand games of DotA since I started in 2004.

I would much rather pay $50 for a complete game with all the content and all future patches than get a free to play game that dicks me around and either makes me grind out content I've already seen, or that nickel-and-dimes me for as much or more than the game would cost normally to get them as DLC. TF2 is cool as free to play, but I bought it on a steam sale for $9.99 before it was free to play and unlocked all the achievement items, and if I wanted to buy all of those items now it would cost a hundred dollars. I don't want to spend $2.50 here, $5 there every few months for the next couple of years to get all the DotA 2 content. If that's how it will be, I'd rather stay on WC3 DotA.
 
thecrafter said:
How does the game run on very low end systems? LoL was borderline acceptable at the lowest settings on my laptop
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It runs great at high settings on a stock q6600/8800GT @ 1920x1200. That's the lowest end system that I've tried it on.
 
nalc said:
I'm a little disappointed in this, actually.

I really hope DotA 2 doesn't do what LoL does with having certain heroes need to be unlocked, or need to be purchased. Or do what TF2 does and have items that you need to complete achievements to unlock, or need to be purchased to be unlocked.

I have been an avid DotA player since DotA Allstars 5, and helped in the public beta for DotA Allstars 6.00 and for DotA 2. I know all of the heroes and items. I don't want to get a free game that doesn't let me use all of the heroes and items right off the bat, and requires me to buy $50 worth of DLC packages or play 250 hours to get to that point. I don't need the game to hold my hand and start me off with easy heroes and unlock more difficult ones for me as I get more - I've played well over a thousand games of DotA since I started in 2004.

I would much rather pay $50 for a complete game with all the content and all future patches than get a free to play game that dicks me around and either makes me grind out content I've already seen, or that nickel-and-dimes me for as much or more than the game would cost normally to get them as DLC. TF2 is cool as free to play, but I bought it on a steam sale for $9.99 before it was free to play and unlocked all the achievement items, and if I wanted to buy all of those items now it would cost a hundred dollars. I don't want to spend $2.50 here, $5 there every few months for the next couple of years to get all the DotA 2 content. If that's how it will be, I'd rather stay on WC3 DotA.
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Yeah, thats exactly what I think of it too. I really wanted it to be a buy to play type of game. Though F2P makes sense for them as a business.
 
I would much rather pay $50 for a complete game with all the content and all future patches than get a free to play game that dicks me around and either makes me grind out content I've already seen, or that nickel-and-dimes me for as much or more than the game would cost normally to get them as DLC. TF2 is cool as free to play, but I bought it on a steam sale for $9.99 before it was free to play and unlocked all the achievement items, and if I wanted to buy all of those items now it would cost a hundred dollars. I don't want to spend $2.50 here, $5 there every few months for the next couple of years to get all the DotA 2 content. If that's how it will be, I'd rather stay on WC3 DotA.
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This simply does not work in this type of game as there is no end. People want more heroes, items, balancing etc. It costs money to keep the game going so you have to keep the revenue stream coming from the player base.

F2P seems to be a good balance except that Newell is living in a fantasy land if he wants a competitive game. I think HoN and LoL are still struggling to find that balance.... The only other option is a pay to play model.

These games sound great on the surface... 5v5 power your hero up and destory the enemy base... BUT

Oh you mean we have to pick a team that generally one hero is going to get to farm and utlimately be strong late game?

Oh you mean that I can be totally fucked by bad picks and a non-cohesive hero lineup (ie 5 carry heroes)

Oh you mean that people create sub accounts just so they can "stomp" on noobs for the LoLs

Oh you mean I can get stuck in a game that is clearly lost but one person refuses to concede.

I could go on and on...bottom line you have to be fucked in the head to play a game like HoN... I am just that sick though.

LoL has it right with the game play mechanics but the graphics and game speed blow.... HoN has actually done much better since going free to play but LoL seems to have to larger prize pools therefore they will have the larger comepetitive scene, it has nothing to do with the game itself. I don't care if the game is My Little Pony high score contest you give away enough money it will spawn a competitive scene.... the question is will it get enough casual players.

I think dota 2 will struggle due to the game mechanics still being ultra hardcore much like HoN. People want to play and experience thrilling team fights with powerful heroes quickly, the mechanics of this game doesn't support that and will turn people off quickly.

I personally am looking forward to it, we will see. Just my two pennies.
 
I'm not sure what to think; I'm semi-okay with LoL's model, because realistically, I can get new heros for free if I play a ton.

If Dota2's system gives benefits to the players who pay, then it's not really a free-to-play model because they'd have an advantage. Character skins are always a good paid transaction though.
 
XvMMvX said:
This simply does not work in this type of game as there is no end. People want more heroes, items, balancing etc. It costs money to keep the game going so you have to keep the revenue stream coming from the player base.

F2P seems to be a good balance except that Newell is living in a fantasy land if he wants a competitive game. I think HoN and LoL are still struggling to find that balance.... The only other option is a pay to play model.

These games sound great on the surface... 5v5 power your hero up and destory the enemy base... BUT

Oh you mean we have to pick a team that generally one hero is going to get to farm and utlimately be strong late game?

Oh you mean that I can be totally fucked by bad picks and a non-cohesive hero lineup (ie 5 carry heroes)

Oh you mean that people create sub accounts just so they can "stomp" on noobs for the LoLs

Oh you mean I can get stuck in a game that is clearly lost but one person refuses to concede.

I could go on and on...bottom line you have to be fucked in the head to play a game like HoN... I am just that sick though.

LoL has it right with the game play mechanics but the graphics and game speed blow.... HoN has actually done much better since going free to play but LoL seems to have to larger prize pools therefore they will have the larger comepetitive scene, it has nothing to do with the game itself. I don't care if the game is My Little Pony high score contest you give away enough money it will spawn a competitive scene.... the question is will it get enough casual players.

I think dota 2 will struggle due to the game mechanics still being ultra hardcore much like HoN. People want to play and experience thrilling team fights with powerful heroes quickly, the mechanics of this game doesn't support that and will turn people off quickly.

I personally am looking forward to it, we will see. Just my two pennies.
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I agree. Any sort of system that limits hero choices is going to ruin the balance of the game, IMO. If some heroes are made "premium" and stronger than the others, they will always get picked by everyone who has access to them, even if that leads to a poor synergy with the team.

I'm also disappointed that so far there is no All Random option in the beta. That didn't always lead to the best synergy, but you never get a team of Drow, Clinkz, PA, Troll Warlord, and SA because everyone wants the big strong hardcore agi carry who gets triple kills in lategame instead of the squishy int healer who supports them. You almost always end up with at least one each tank, support, and carry. Especially if they track stats. I play dotacash and while the stats are cool, I think I liked DotA more in the old days without stats. You didn't worry if you had a crappy game and you could play for the team instead of for the individual. You never had someone who would sit in the base or just jungle and avoid team fights so that they wouldn't get a bunch of deaths in the game and hurt their stats. Now everyone wants a good KDR and chances are that if your support goes 0-4, he's going to stop supporting in team fights and you're going to lose, even though if he was to keep supporting he would probably end up 1-7 but you would win. Now it seems like almost every game there is a player who goes out of their way to avoid clashes either because they don't want to get some deaths or because they want to farm a big item and don't care how their team does.
 
I have never once bought a single hero in LoL, been playing on/off 3'ish years and I have every single hero unlocked and 60k IP just sitting in my account (wish you could gift it to people).

Like or not, if it's free to play it HAS to make money somehow. Skins are good, but I don't think that'd be enought o fund the servers and everything.

You'd be surprised at how many people spend real money for heroes in LoL.

However in LoL you can buy like a huge pack of heroes for 30'ish bucks or so which contains a lot of heroes.
 
I'm thinking that CS:GO will be F2P as well.

Valve doesn't seem interested in money anymore since Steam itself generates more income than several triple AAA publishers combined. I don't see them charging for anything other than HL3 and maybe L4D3 at this point.

I trust in their vision of a F2P system. Going F2P did not affect TF2 as a game as purchasable items are more or less cosmetic in nature.

Gabe seems interested in resolving the douchebaggery issue that as often as not brings down new Multiplayer systems. It's a large part of why people leave each new COD game within months of release.

I think CS and CSS have it pretty well in hand with mani-admin tools and clan run servers but I find nothing disagreeable with out right rewarding good behavior.

I feel really bad about the Christmas Steam event this year. Gabe wanted to reward loyal steam users and a bunch of assholes abused the shit out of it ruining it for everyone and making gamers look like assholes. I hope Gabe hasn't gotten cynical in light of that meltdown. I really think the reward system can work.
 
i love valve and dota but if they make dota 2 like lol im not playing.

microtransactions is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.
 
thecrafter said:
How does the game run on very low end systems? LoL was borderline acceptable at the lowest settings on my laptop
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On an ASUS UL30VT laptop with 1.3 GHz Core 2 Duo and GeForce G210M, Dota 2 on the auto recommended settings runs about the same as LoL.
 
Will definitely move from HoN to Dota 2, excited to see all the old Dota heroes again.

I think the model is fine, will probably end up getting all the heroes anyways just from playing.
 
Stiler said:
I have never once bought a single hero in LoL, been playing on/off 3'ish years and I have every single hero unlocked and 60k IP just sitting in my account (wish you could gift it to people).

Like or not, if it's free to play it HAS to make money somehow. Skins are good, but I don't think that'd be enought o fund the servers and everything.

You'd be surprised at how many people spend real money for heroes in LoL.

However in LoL you can buy like a huge pack of heroes for 30'ish bucks or so which contains a lot of heroes.
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What's your summoner name?
 
Hopefully the microtransaction only involves cosmetic upgrades. Fancy hats and stuff :p
 
i love valve and dota but if they make dota 2 like lol im not playing.

microtransactions is the worst thing to ever happen to gaming.
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No it is actually one of the best things to happen to gaming, unless you are are a cheap ass who some how thinks that these developers owe you something and should be honored that you play their game.

F2P or P2P gives developers incentives to improve the game and keep it up and running. On a pay once they have zero incentive to work on past titles and only focus on the next release. Games like HoN, LoL, BF3, CoD, and SC2 need to be directed to P2P or F2P as it works better for that type of game.
 
piscian18 said:
I'm thinking that CS:GO will be F2P as well.
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The community wont accept a CS game with microtransactions. Not to mention there is no way to put microtransactions in without affecting the games balance. The game will prolly be 39.99 on steam.
 
AWP - $100
AK47/M4 - $120
Scout - $10
Desert Eagle - $55
Armor $50

Everything else: 50 cents
 
CS:GO is F2P it'll be DOA, same goes to DOTA2 if it wasn't free.

Anyone who thought DOTA wasn't going to be free is kind of retarded.
 
XvMMvX said:
No it is actually one of the best things to happen to gaming, unless you are are a cheap ass who some how thinks that these developers owe you something and should be honored that you play their game.

F2P or P2P gives developers incentives to improve the game and keep it up and running. On a pay once they have zero incentive to work on past titles and only focus on the next release. Games like HoN, LoL, BF3, CoD, and SC2 need to be directed to P2P or F2P as it works better for that type of game.
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SC2? Really? The model makes sense for FPS, but a RTS game with a singleplayer campaign? No way. What would they do, make the mission objectives "Destroy the enemy base, defend your base, and pay $5 and you'll be able to beat the mission and move onto the next one"? Their current plan (IIRC) of launching a game with a campaign and then launching additional games using the same engines that offer new units/features and additional campaigns seems great. They've got a good engine, and they can make a lot more than the original 10-hour campaign on it. I'd even buy an equivalent of Half Life Source, something with the original SC and BW campaigns on the SC2 engine.
 
I hate free to play games. I'd rather pay 50 dollars or whatever and not have to worry about being nickle and dimed to death.
 
I have played a bit of the beta and they sure aren't going to be pulling many LoL players. Maybe it is more like HoN (which I have not played) but I very much prefer LoL to Dota 2.

In addition, I am very vested in LoL - I have over 70 champions. Not planning on starting over.
 
I could imagine Gabe incorporating a system where if you write a Wiki entry and it's accepted by the community then you get free unlocks without having to put so much play time into the game. I could see where at the end of matches there is a MVP vote and those tallies will eventually get you an unlock. I could even see them incorporating a mentor system where a pro would log into a match as a spectator and give assistance to a team of new players.

There are tons of ways to incorporate more ideas into the game with the large amount of audience friendly features in the game. As it is it looks like the ultimate E-Sport with the spectator mode. You don't need TwitchTV to watch your favorite player. You can follow him around 24/7 as he does match after match.

If Valve gives this title the Team Fortress 2 treatment we'll be playing this for the next 10 years with berets on our heads. Haha!
 
XvMMvX said:
No it is actually one of the best things to happen to gaming, unless you are are a cheap ass who some how thinks that these developers owe you something and should be honored that you play their game.
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what? id much rather pay 60bux upfront than paying a bunch of smaller transactions. paying for each hero as they get release? no thank you.
 
Got in to the beta for this the other day, I had one game and honestly I'm not impressed...

No obvious ability to lock camera to hero, no obvious way to see your team mates hero level, really cluttered and fat interface both in the menu and on the HUD when playing, a 2560x1600 screen doesn't need 25%+ screen space for HUD. Sounds straight out of the original half life and stolen from the UT2003/4 announcer LOL!

Seriously disappointed in valve on this one, they managed to mess about for all this time and they still don't have something better than LoL is.

TBH I'm not a massive fan of either game though, they both suffer from "nuked to death in 0.0013 seconds" syndrome, as if the player is supposed to make any meaningful decisions and react to what's going on in that tiny amount of time, haha.
 
Tried this game a few times now after various patches, it looks great and runs very smooth on my system, but I just can't seem to match the level of 'fun' I have with LOL.

So far I'm not starting over in DOTA 2, f2p or not is not an issue for me really.
 
what? id much rather pay 60bux upfront than paying a bunch of smaller transactions. paying for each hero as they get release? no thank you.
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See you are not getting it... once they have your $60 they have no incentive to improve expand the current game but to start working on the next itteration that they are going to try and get another $60 out of you. Also you can't pay $60 upfront for something that is going to run to infinity.... eventually you will become a negative revenue stream to the developer in server and development cost, but you gamers seem to think they owe you something and $60 is just SOOOOO much money that it can last forever.

Constant revenue streams yields better results in multiplayer games.

SC2? Really? The model makes sense for FPS, but a RTS game with a singleplayer campaign? No way. What would they do, make the mission objectives "Destroy the enemy base, defend your base, and pay $5 and you'll be able to beat the mission and move onto the next one"? Their current plan (IIRC) of launching a game with a campaign and then launching additional games using the same engines that offer new units/features and additional campaigns seems great. They've got a good engine, and they can make a lot more than the original 10-hour campaign on it. I'd even buy an equivalent of Half Life Source, something with the original SC and BW campaigns on the SC2 engine.
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My entire post and you focused and responsed to ONE example, reading comprehension and common sense is lacking here. Obviously I am talking about the multiplayer player portion of SC2.

BF3 multiplayer may not be the best example because the majority of the servers are run by the users and DICE charges for the content packs so that seems fair.
 
Could care less to be honest. DOTA 2 is just a reskinned DOTA with new features designed around the DOTA community. The game is as boring as hell too in my opinion. They could have tried to innovate and add in new features, maps, and other stuff but Valve decided to just take the DOTA name so that they can milk it a little.
 
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Sovern said:
Could care less to be honest. DOTA is just a reskinned DOTA 2 with new community designed features..
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maxwell_smart__confused.gif


......................
 
XvMMvX said:
See you are not getting it... once they have your $60 they have no incentive to improve expand the current game but to start working on the next itteration that they are going to try and get another $60 out of you. Also you can't pay $60 upfront for something that is going to run to infinity.... eventually you will become a negative revenue stream to the developer in server and development cost, but you gamers seem to think they owe you something and $60 is just SOOOOO much money that it can last forever.
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really? because i paid 60dollars for sc2 and its being updated often. good developers dont just take your money and go gwhahahahahah and stop working on the games. nobody is expecting $60dollars to run to infinity thats what expansions are for. im not against giving developers money if they make good games, im against microtransactions.

hopefully this will get through that thick skull of yours.
 
XvMMvX said:
See you are not getting it... once they have your $60 they have no incentive to improve expand the current game but to start working on the next itteration that they are going to try and get another $60 out of you. Also you can't pay $60 upfront for something that is going to run to infinity.... eventually you will become a negative revenue stream to the developer in server and development cost, but you gamers seem to think they owe you something and $60 is just SOOOOO much money that it can last forever.
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Because Valve doesnt update pretty much all of their games all the time.
 
German Muscle said:
Because Valve doesnt update pretty much all of their games all the time.
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You mean Tf2? That has an endless supply of hats and items to keep the money rolling into Valve's offices...

I don't mind the F2P model at all. It requires the developers to continuously develop the games and add new things to them so they don't go stale. I've never bought a single damn thing in TF2, but I've been playing it off and on for years and there is something something new in the game when I pick it up.
 
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